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weaver9 wrote:


Also good points. Here's what I came up with:

Spoiler:

Super Heavy
Khorne Lord of Skulls x3

Airwing
Heldrake with Baleflamet x3

Patrol
MoP
Discordant
Cultists

I kind of figure if you're going to field 3 LoS you're kind of giving up on using a lot of CP anyways, unless you include an RC Battalion just for battery power.

This is the list I am going to test out for this concept this weekend, it's mostly for fun and a certain amount of 'screw it' with regards to winning/objectives. Basically I would just try to body block folks off of objectives and hope to kill a lot of stuff.

So with the idea that I will have very little CP (5), this list is designed to passive buff itself.

DP gives- re-roll 1s to hit
DP-WL gives - re-roll 1s to hit/1s to wound with ranged
LD gives - +1 to hit, +2" of movement

Most of the strats I foresee using: Iron Within, Iron Without, Dour Duty, Daemonforge, CP re-roll.

Guys I'm confused. Have we seen full leaks of the CSM point drops or just heard some of them? Battlescribe seems to have been updated to reflect some of these changes (210pt Abaddon etc) but daemon Prince doesn't seem to have dropped.
Is it only the winged version? So essentially the wings have got cheaper? I thought it was always 180ish with the wings.
And is it only vanilla Prince that dropped? Not the DG or TS ones?

Abaddon303 wrote:
Guys I'm confused. Have we seen full leaks of the CSM point drops or just heard some of them? Battlescribe seems to have been updated to reflect some of these changes (210pt Abaddon etc) but daemon Prince doesn't seem to have dropped.
Is it only the winged version? So essentially the wings have got cheaper? I thought it was always 180ish with the wings.
And is it only vanilla Prince that dropped? Not the DG or TS ones?

Full points have dropped.

Battlscribe has updated and patched in the right points for the DP (it's the wings that went down in price I think). There may still be an error or two kicking around.

DG and TS princes stayed the same (DG) or went up (TS).

So DP with wings and warp bolter is 183?

Abaddon303 wrote:
So DP with wings and warp bolter is 183?

CSM one should be 168, don't think that points drop has been put into BattleScribe yet.

Nice one thanks

saint_red wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
*snip*

Niiru wrote:
*snip*

AP-3 is on a 6. It's not useful for Warp Talons. You are paying 1CP to upgrade maybe ~5 attacks from AP-2 to AP-3. That will get you maybe one extra wound against power armoured targets.

Tri-pointing from deep strike doesn't happen against good players.

Good players will not stand around and let you mince them in their turn. They will fall back and shoot you. In fact, even bad players will do this. Your EC are not getting to fight in your enemy's turn and as such their trait is not useful.

Nobody has seriously used Excess of Violence in the last two and a half years it's been available to us and that's not changing now. It's OK in a pinch but it's mostly not very good. NL +1 to hit is demonstrably good. Being able to fight twice from MoK strat is very good.

EC can't pin down FLY units.

 Red Corsair wrote:

For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

You are severely underestimating how good Vox Scream is. For example, it is incredible against Tau because you can turn off Saviour Protocols of the drone unit protecting a Riptide. You can turn off Orikan's +1 to RP and 5++ invuln save auras. Turn off advance + charge and morale immunity auras that an Ork Warboss gives. Turn off Painboy FnP auras. Turn Abaddon's Fearless and re-roll auras off. Turn off Synapse. Turn off Unquestioning Loyalty, morale immunity and +1 hit auras that the GSC HQs have. There is obviously incredible utility against the more aura heavy armies like Marines.

EC are not bad. Feel free to use EC Warp Talons if you want to but it is not the most competitive choice available to us.

I am not underestimating anything. I think it's a great strat, nowhere have I argued against it. Where I did argue was that somehow nightlords were the be all end all of warp talons. If your trying to edge out a competitive list I have a spoiler for you, your still never taking warp talons.

BTW your examples are a pretty big fever dream. Any Tau list I have faced has at least two commanders, so your not shutting down Kauyon or Montka. Further more, any tau list I have played in the last 12 months has tons of small drone units for exactly the reason your suggesting. It is a much bigger PITA to kill off all those 2-4 man drone teams hanging out in a chain in range of multiple units. I'd love to face an opponent green enough to only take one brick of drones near their riptide. BTW I chuckeled about the synapse, for one it hardly matters and again most nid lists accidentally have about 3 layers of redundant synapse because it's one so many units.

But I'll reiterate, vox scream is very good, but I disagree with the premise that it somehow is always good enough to merit building half your force around. Warp talons are cute and have an extremely powerful gimmick, but their still just 1 wound marines that cost 19ppm. The obvious, best choice for that strat is on a flier since you can get it into range turn 1 from anywhere which is why I think helblades have a lot of merit. I still think the best two legions are Iron Warriors and Alpha legion because they actually kill the enemy efficiently from range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 small_gods wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

I think you're underestimating the versatility of vox scream. Almost all armies rely on aura abilities.

You can stop tau declaring kayun, you can shut down strackan buffing up guardsmen and bullgryns, you can make Abbadon just a fancy daemon prince or same for gman, caul and azreal.

Also it will stop a lot of aura warlord traits like grudges and master of soulforges.

It only is useless against knights and crons as far as I can see.

Straken can't buff bulgryn mate, but sure I guess if people are still tooling up Catachans in lists from 2 years ago, and I say that as a guard player with a massive 2nd edition sculpt catachan army, guardsmen are tissue paper currently. And again, vox scream is a solid strat, but correct me if I am wrong here but the enemy can also embark into a transport to avoid the debuff entirely, then simply step out and go to work.

Again, I want to get out from under this rock that has rolled onto my shoulders. Two things were discussed. I was playing devils advocate in regard to EC verse NL warp talons if your trying a raptoral host style list. Additionally I also don't think Vox scream is the best reason in itself to go night lords since you can easily splash it into better legions with an airwing.

For me a raptoral host warp talon list is more for flavor and fun and I think both NL and EC are solid choices and very fluffy. Personally since I think the build is mostly for fun I'd rather my warp talons actually kill thigs then play group hug and get murdered on the return attacks. I think EC are a far better blender in that regard.

I can't decide which legion i should take for obliterator.
AL have a best legion trait increase their survival but IW have a best stratagem to protect and improve their firepower. i think i should take them as IW, what do you think?

Off topic question:

Has anyone made use of a storm eagle or fire raptor? Any good for their points? Debating on how to transport my bezerkers.

kaiseric wrote:
I can't decide which legion i should take for obliterator.
AL have a best legion trait increase their survival but IW have a best stratagem to protect and improve their firepower. i think i should take them as IW, what do you think?

I'd probably go Alpha Legion. Surviving stuff means you get to use them on the next turn.

kaiseric wrote:
I can't decide which legion i should take for obliterator.
AL have a best legion trait increase their survival but IW have a best stratagem to protect and improve their firepower. i think i should take them as IW, what do you think?

Obliterators are the signature unit of IW, so you're good to go.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

kaiseric wrote:
I can't decide which legion i should take for obliterator.
AL have a best legion trait increase their survival but IW have a best stratagem to protect and improve their firepower. i think i should take them as IW, what do you think?

Obliterators are the signature unit of IW, so you're good to go.

AL or IW. Whatever legion you go with, take a feculent gnarlmaw with you. You get +2 to cover for them. And you can fallback and still shoot/charge. Dont forget you can deepstrike the gnarlmaw for 1CP. Downside is you have to pick nurgle, so no double shooting.

weaver9 wrote:
Has anyone made use of a storm eagle or fire raptor? Any good for their points? Debating on how to transport my bezerkers.

Storm Eagle is great as long as it doesn't get blown up first turn, I haven't compared it's points since the CA drops though. You can put an entire Battalion in it if you want, I use it in World Eaters lists for fun, put 3x6 Berzerkers, Ex Champ and either a Chaos Lord or a DA in there.

 p5freak wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

kaiseric wrote:
I can't decide which legion i should take for obliterator.
AL have a best legion trait increase their survival but IW have a best stratagem to protect and improve their firepower. i think i should take them as IW, what do you think?

Obliterators are the signature unit of IW, so you're good to go.

AL or IW. Whatever legion you go with, take a feculent gnarlmaw with you. You get +2 to cover for them. And you can fallback and still shoot/charge. Dont forget you can deepstrike the gnarlmaw for 1CP. Downside is you have to pick nurgle, so no double shooting.

Alpha legion can fall back and shoot for a Cp, so that's a nice trick in their cap, not to mention theb3+ explosion ability should you kill a tank, since if you take some alpha legion they don't even have to be the ones that kill the tank, they just need to be there on the table.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Alpha legion can fall back and shoot for a Cp, so that's a nice trick in their cap, not to mention theb3+ explosion ability should you kill a tank, since if you take some alpha legion they don't even have to be the ones that kill the tank, they just need to be there on the table.

Also nice for Ambush, Hydra's Wail, and Conceal, AL + IW + flavor is the way I think. Playing around currently with AL/IW/RC list.

I can 2nd the oblits as nurgle next to the gnarlmaw. It's a crazy good setup for them and makes them very very very tough to kill. Plus as nurgle they can be healed with cp. Put a sorcerer or master of possession next to them and you have a 24" zone of serious pain. The only thing you have to worry about is mass small arms fire, and even then.....

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Alpha legion can fall back and shoot for a Cp, so that's a nice trick in their cap, not to mention theb3+ explosion ability should you kill a tank, since if you take some alpha legion they don't even have to be the ones that kill the tank, they just need to be there on the table.

Also nice for Ambush, Hydra's Wail, and Conceal, AL + IW + flavor is the way I think. Playing around currently with AL/IW/RC list.

I think Night Lord might work better than RC simply for access to warp talon shenanigans, having around 7 night lord warp talons is almost an auto-win against typical gunline Tau lists, which I consider to be significantly better than getting extra 3 CP for a bunch of marines that will have zero influence on the game

Not to mention the ability to shut off auras and preventing falling back for night Lords. Night Lords + alpha legion looks like a very vicious combo, the only problem is finding the cp to fund everything and figuring out which WLT to take and what your 3 relics will be.

 small_gods wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

I think you're underestimating the versatility of vox scream. Almost all armies rely on aura abilities.

You can stop tau declaring kayun, you can shut down strackan buffing up guardsmen and bullgryns, you can make Abbadon just a fancy daemon prince or same for gman, caul and azreal.

Also it will stop a lot of aura warlord traits like grudges and master of soulforges.

It only is useless against knights and crons as far as I can see.

uh are we forgetting how vox scream works? You target one unit. Tau run more than one commander typically. It would literally do nothing vs tau.

footfoe wrote:
It would literally do nothing vs tau.

Wouldn't it turn off a unit's "For the Greater Good" ability so you could dive the Tau Lines with a 3D6 charge?

Wouldn't it turn off an Ethereal's Morale aura so Drones are testing on 6 LD?

I'm sure there's more.

I believe what he means is it turns off 1 units ability, the other 6 near said unit still have their abilities. And no it would not do much vs greater good. The way greater good works is all units within 6" of the target of the charge can fire overwatch. Vox scream would stop 1 of those units from firing overwatch, but if you used the vox scream on the target of the charge all others still get their gg ability. So in the end, kind of meh for that usage.

Azuza001 wrote:
So in the end, kind of meh for that usage.

Turning off a 250pt unit's Overwatch isn't exactly nothing, though. Especially in smaller games.

Hey guys so going to purchase some new models yo change my list a bit.

What do you think are our most compeative units? I'm most likely going to be iron warriors, alpha legion etc would be too much of a repainting task.

Having tried close combat deamon engines I've learned the hard way that it's a shooting meta at the mo.

I'm thinking oblits and chaincannon havoks are our best shooting. What compliments them? What other units or hqs have potential to be MVP?

Finally thinking of night lord detachment, what is a strong loadout for a jump pack hq?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Not to mention the ability to shut off auras and preventing falling back for night Lords. Night Lords + alpha legion looks like a very vicious combo, the only problem is finding the cp to fund everything and figuring out which WLT to take and what your 3 relics will be.

Have you heard of your lord an saviour; the RC battalion?

Honestly though, we now got an even bigger Toolbox, the issue is, though, that all our tools require ressources, that themselves take up slots for these tools.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrtomski wrote:
Hey guys so going to purchase some new models yo change my list a bit.

What do you think are our most compeative units? I'm most likely going to be iron warriors, alpha legion etc would be too much of a repainting task.

Having tried close combat deamon engines I've learned the hard way that it's a shooting meta at the mo.

I'm thinking oblits and chaincannon havoks are our best shooting. What compliments them? What other units or hqs have potential to be MVP?

Finally thinking of night lord detachment, what is a strong loadout for a jump pack hq?

1. Every squad that can maximize the Cacophony and votwl stratagems.And or Doublefighting and a guaranteed melee charge.
2. Unsurprisingly, altough i feel like the hybrid ones atm aren't too bad. Especially not the venomcrawler for 115 pts. (granted he seems more like a big distraction carnifex then anything else but he)
3. The usual susptects, of sorcerer, lord, in the case of Oblits some warlord traits and or the occaisional MoP. Havocs are allways the question how you deliver them and personally imo from my limited testing IW oblits, and AL havocs should be the go to way due to AL padding out the issues of the havocs (especially flimsyness and movement) whilest IW have just the best Obliterator unit in the game atm. that said. Corsair Khorne berzerkers can do surprisingly well. Lord discordants in pack format are also anything but pushovers and the lowered DP might become quite prevalent again.
Other than that, i'd imagine Noise marines MIGHT, make the cut in a EC list.
4. That is a good question, atm i run mine with a CB because i built him that way , i'd imagine though that if you can, running a Spitefull flames one or one with corresponding Relic might make for a good beatstick.

footfoe wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

I think you're underestimating the versatility of vox scream. Almost all armies rely on aura abilities.

You can stop tau declaring kayun, you can shut down strackan buffing up guardsmen and bullgryns, you can make Abbadon just a fancy daemon prince or same for gman, caul and azreal.

Also it will stop a lot of aura warlord traits like grudges and master of soulforges.

It only is useless against knights and crons as far as I can see.

uh are we forgetting how vox scream works? You target one unit. Tau run more than one commander typically. It would literally do nothing vs tau.

Yes because nobody brings shadowsun for t2 kayun. Or a large blob of drones that they hide out of LOS. It's not a perfect solution but if you spend t1 shooting small sheild drone units and fire warriors. T2 you can lock down a riptide and stop shadowsun using those rerolls.

I can see it being less useful against crons, knights and non covern dhukari. But otherwise great.

Not Online!!! wrote:


1. Every squad that can maximize the Cacophony and votwl stratagems.And or Doublefighting and a guaranteed melee charge.
2. Unsurprisingly, altough i feel like the hybrid ones atm aren't too bad. Especially not the venomcrawler for 115 pts. (granted he seems more like a big distraction carnifex then anything else but he)
3. The usual susptects, of sorcerer, lord, in the case of Oblits some warlord traits and or the occaisional MoP. Havocs are allways the question how you deliver them and personally imo from my limited testing IW oblits, and AL havocs should be the go to way due to AL padding out the issues of the havocs (especially flimsyness and movement) whilest IW have just the best Obliterator unit in the game atm. that said. Corsair Khorne berzerkers can do surprisingly well. Lord discordants in pack format are also anything but pushovers and the lowered DP might become quite prevalent again.
Other than that, i'd imagine Noise marines MIGHT, make the cut in a EC list.
4. That is a good question, atm i run mine with a CB because i built him that way , i'd imagine though that if you can, running a Spitefull flames one or one with corresponding Relic might make for a good beatstick.

I can see why alpha legion are strong for havoks, I'm kind of stuck with iron warriors though. One good thing is the legion trait I think would really help them, with only -1 ap cover is going to really reduce thier impact.

I guess the issue I have is being forced to take a rhino to keep them safe.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly though, we now got an even bigger Toolbox, the issue is, though, that all our tools require ressources, that themselves take up slots for these tools.

I wonder if it's not better to organise into Brigades at this point. You're getting +2CP rather than +3CP but you're not using a detachment slot, and you have a lot more tools at hand to ensure you get some value out of your choices in the troops slot.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly though, we now got an even bigger Toolbox, the issue is, though, that all our tools require ressources, that themselves take up slots for these tools.

I wonder if it's not better to organise into Brigades at this point. You're getting +2CP rather than +3CP but you're not using a detachment slot, and you have a lot more tools at hand to ensure you get some value out of your choices in the troops slot.

I think with 12 point chosen and 20 point spawn you're not loosing a lot to get those cp. As good as RC is, imo you can get more out of less hq choices, 15 chosen and 3 spawn.

You have to add the cost of your 3x CSM, so that means you're paying more than 400pts to farm 7CP.

Any decent brigade is going to have strong FA and Elite choices in the first place which aren't considered a tax. The advantage over RC is that your army is more coherent as your Troops choices can still be supported by Stratagems and support HQs.

Plus Cultists are back to 4 points. That's 3 per 1 Marine basically, and that will go a much longer way to hold objectives. 45 points saved is two Spawn and two Combi-Bolters.