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For the NL shenanigans...thoughts on a jetpack chaos lord and 3x spawns in an outrider detachment on the cheap?

 Chewie wrote:
For the NL shenanigans...thoughts on a jetpack chaos lord and 3x spawns in an outrider detachment on the cheap?

Spawn aren't all that fast.

I'd go for bikes if you're planning on keeping it cheap and using the strats.

Night Lords host raptorials are probably gonna be pretty popular from here on out. A couple warp talon squads next to a same-mark herald or greater possessed will be putting out a LOT of +1S attacks. Pop in two heldrakes to get first-turn charges and proc vox scream and you've got a groovy alpha strike that can tie up a lot of shooting at once.

After that, you NEED a battalion. Whether that's iron warriors with cultists, obliterators, forge/maulerfiends, or khorne berzerkers with red butchers, or emperor's children noise marines for insane shooting, that's up to you. Hell take a red17 and a daemon detachment, whatever you wanna do.

Apparently Hellbrutes went down in points again..? Also, with the changes to Chaos Bastions, whats the current thinking on using them with a pair of havoc or oblit units? I believe they also went down in points.

Hellbrutes are still 60 points base without their wargear. So, I don't think they changed in points. They die easily but they are cheap and pack a punch when they get into close combat. Try for a threat overload and they might be ok as a second wave of attack. (No way they are getting into the first wave of attacks).

The defiler is a bit more expensive, but you get a far more durable daemon engine that shoots more, and is just as scary in close combat. Same for mauler fiend.

Its probably ok if you just want to stuff and max out your elite slots with hellbrute after having already used up all your heavy slots.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
We have too much stuff in our toolkits now. lol I find myself wanting to field 4 detachments so that I can have 4 separate legions. lol

Alpha legion and night lords are so good and fun to use now. But I also find myself wanting black legion because I want Abbadon. He is still a very solid anchor in an army, and he makes other legion cultists and troops all fearless. He goes very well with any number of chaos soup lists that feature two or three detachments of troops.

And then there is emperor's children, world eaters and Iron warriors. All have interesting stuff too. Emperor's children you can field either T5 terminators with 5+ FNP (from delightful agonies). or absolutely devastating 20 man noise marines also who are T5, 5+ FNP.

Iron warriors has some of the best synergies with daemon engines and obliterators. And with points coming down, an IW list can point out a lot of shooting.

World eaters got even more killy, but more importantly, they got a boost to their deployment and a warlord trait giving +1 to charge, and strategem allowing for consolidate 6 inches, and a reduction in points to zerkers. Depending on your opponent, we can even run zerkers without chain axes to save on points so that we can run even more zerkers. A massive wavefront of zerkers charging into the enemy is actually a very possible and fun list to play now. You can follow it up with a deep strike of WE raptors or warp talons who are all host raptorial for +2 charge.

If opponent is not ready for it, its very possible to table the opponent by turn 2 or 3. (Provided you survive the shooting of course) lol.

If you go chaos soup. You start having even more possibilities with WE. You can bring in another sorceror for warptime. So, turn 1, deploy zerkers 9 inch forward, then warptime a 20 man zerker unit a further 6 inches after it has already moved 6 inches. That would bring your 20 man zerker squad forward 21 inches. You are literally right infront of the enemy by then. Then you charge in, and then you fight twice...

By the time the dust settles, you probably wiped out all of the chaff, and fighting twice probably brought you into close combat contact with the enemy's second line, which is what you want to fight. Meanwhile, the rest of your army of zerkers are move advancing forward, and you have deep strikes waiting for turn 2 to come in. And your opponent is pushed right back into his deployment zone, with 20 zerkers in his lines to worry about, and not much chaff left.


And think about this other interesting fact now. a basic CSM now only cost 11 points. You could field 100 guys in power armor and they would only cost 1100 points lol. 5 CSM are easy to kill and usually no threat. But 100 CSM can double tap out 200 shots per turn and are gonna be an real pain to kill. This is not even factoring what legion traits and strategems can do to this 100 CSM in power armor lol.

And imagine having 12 squads of 5 man CSM running around claiming objectives, clogging up the midfield and tagging opponents. Those 60 CSM only cost 660 points. You still have 1340 points left to spend on whatever you want and you can still field 12 such squads of dudes. lol Even if the opponent can blow away 3 squads of CSM per turn, your 12 squads will still last you for 4 turns. And that's assuming he ignored the other 1340 points of your army? lol (I think he would have far more to worry about).

Also, consider that with hateful assault. A chainsword and pistol WE CSM will do 4 attacks on the charge, and only cost 11 points. Just a squad of 5 of them will punch out 21 attacks. lol

Here’s an idea to fill any generic CSM brigade.

- DA w/Disciples
- Smash Lord w/TH
- Smash Lord w/TH
- 2x10 Cultists
- 4x5 CSM squads
- Greater Possessed
- Greater Possessed
- 5x Warp Talons
- 2x5 Spawn

Stick a 5++ on the Spawn with the DA and march them up the board with the characters, use your WT to kill overwatch for T2 charges, control the backfield with your troops.

This will leave 1x Elite slot and 3x HS slots to fill with 2 free detachments. Drop the Smash Lords to customize and that’s 1203pts you can work with. It’s not a bad framework IMO. You’re basically just exchanging the Red Corsairs HQs for Greater Possessed in the Elites slot.

well, by the time you put in the three HS slots, you have basically used up half your army worth of points. So, you best make sure its a legion you want to run. And it means you only have two detachments left for at max two other legions. Might be more flexible to run two batalions and one more detachment. Then you get to run three legion soup without having to worry so much about fitting stuff you don't want to field into a brigade. I think its fine if you plan on running these stuff anyway.

I'm currently playing a possessed themed list with a number of characters to buff them. They're Alpha Legion more for the fluff and I've been running variations of Alpha legion lists for years. I emjoy the list, but it struggles late game and has very little fire power, I'm considering bikes for mobility, cost effectiveness, volume of shots and the ability to fall back in shoot. The dreads are pretty easy on points, but as mentioned, they're pretty soft. I really wish havocs were squad size 10.

With all the big point reductions, and the new stuff from faith and fury. Even a thematic possessed theme list has some teeth now.
Run one squad of 20 alpha legion elite noise marines which are slanaash.

Before deployment, use foward operatives to move forward 9 inches your 20 man noise marine and your possessed.

Turn 1, your noise marines move forward 6 inches. So they are now forward 15 inches from your frontline. Then use VOTLW, endless cacophony, whatever else you want to stack on them. Shoot twice with sonic blasters for 120 shots straight into enemy's chaff.

It should clear away most of the chaff for your possessed, which after moving up 6 inches, will also be 15 inches forward from your front lines to charge into their second line.

Now they got two options. Focus on your possessed, ignore the noise marines and eat another 120 shots turn 2, or shot up the noise marines, and have angry possessed charging into their lines turn 2. Either way is a win win cos never underestimate the combat power of noise marines either.

Especially if backed up by your other alpha legion characters.

With CSM at 11 pts. you can run two RC battalions with 6x20 CSM and 19CP. Each CSM unit has two plasma and a heavy weapon. Whenever a unit gets low on models simply play more from where come from for 3CP, and set up the unit up again, at full starting strength.

So one thing I like is the nurgle deamon powerfist.

It's basically a thunder hammer which wounds ANYTHING on a 2+ for 9 points. Seems like a great option for that NL host raptiorial jump lord...

 p5freak wrote:
With CSM at 11 pts. you can run two RC battalions with 6x20 CSM and 19CP. Each CSM unit has two plasma and a heavy weapon. Whenever a unit gets low on models simply play more from where come from for 3CP, and set up the unit up again, at full starting strength.

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [53 PL, 8CP, 951pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 74pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer [6 PL, 88pts]: Bolt pistol, Force sword, No Chaos Mark

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [14 PL, 263pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [14 PL, 263pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [14 PL, 263pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Plasma gun

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [53 PL, 11CP, 960pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 74pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Mark of Tzeentch

Sorcerer [6 PL, 88pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Weaver of Fates

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [14 PL, 262pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Missile launcher
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Heavy bolter

Chaos Space Marines [14 PL, 268pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Lascannon
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [14 PL, 268pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Lascannon

++ Total: [106 PL, 19CP, 1,911pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Spoiler:

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Honest answer, as someone that actually HAS attempted mass CSM combat and now runs it again, 10 man squads are better, they are less likely to be wiped by moral , you also achieve a higher saturation of heavy weaponry.
That SAID.My prefered setup atm is 2 times RC battalion with 10 man squads and a AL unit of some kind for Votwl etc.
Also, pray that you don't run into marines because tac-1 ap doctrine is a pain in the ass for the list. Otoh, Apostle can do massive work in such lists as can sorcerers as can a CB lord. Sprinkle in some big guns and some havocs or cheap terminators and you get a quite amusing setup.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrtomski wrote:
So one thing I like is the nurgle deamon powerfist.

It's basically a thunder hammer which wounds ANYTHING on a 2+ for 9 points. Seems like a great option for that NL host raptiorial jump lord...

well except when you roll a 1 and have no access to doublefighting.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Honest answer, as someone that actually HAS attempted mass CSM combat and now runs it again, 10 man squads are better, they are less likely to be wiped by moral , you also achieve a higher saturation of heavy weaponry.

Spend 2CP to auto pass morale. 19 is plenty for a 3 turn game. 10 wiped out easily.

 p5freak wrote:
Spend 2CP to auto pass morale. 19 is plenty for a 3 turn game. 10 wiped out easily.

Any stratagem is vulnerable to getting Vect’d. You also can’t deal with snipers and artillery, you risk getting trapped in your DZ by fast assault armies or infiltrators, many armies can remove 20+ MEQ in a turn, your mobility is terrible if Warptime gets denied, you might not have enough focused offence to score tactical objectives, etc.

At the end of the day it’s a skew list, it forces your opponent to win or lose based on how they react. You might score some wins. But you don't have any tools to adapt once they’ve solved the problem of how to take it apart.

Not Online!!! wrote:
well except when you roll a 1 and have no access to doublefighting.

If you need a Khorne Beatstick, a Winged DP with Skullreaver is probably still your best option.

You could run a NL Brigade core and a Khorne Daemons det. Which also gives you cross-codex synergy with your WT and Greater Possessed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, so I have a question about filling the NL Elites slot effectively.

If I have Plasma Termies with an Icon of Vengeance, and I use “Prey on the Weak” for +1 to hit, do they no longer take casualties on 1’s?

It’s also possible to mark them Slaneesh and get access to Cacophony.

Thoughts on running a Brigade...

With individual filler Spawn, Possessed, and GrPo getting price cuts, along with many of our beatsticks, it’s looking more viable. The question then becomes - what detachments get Specialist upgrades?

I can see the argument for the Brigade being the Host Raptorial. It’s got a bunch of HQs, who can be smashlords.

A Soulforged Pack or Devastation Battery works fine as a Spearhead. It only needs a Chaos Lord or Warpsmith. I can see arguments for an IW SP being a Brigade - you want to being them Cultists.

Also, there’s the question of Daemonkin. Hosts Raptorial love Khorne auras. Soulforged Packs love any daemon auras. Oblits love Nurgle auras - and, to a laser extent, Crimson Crowns and Flickering Flames. WB Possessed love most Slaaneshi and Nurgle auras.

Maining Word Bearers, myself, I’m pretty delighted that a company of massed Cultists and Heretacs seems to be useable. Probably going to build up my WE Host Raptorial and have it tango with Nurgle Daemonkin.

Nurgle Characters would do a lot for Warp Talons as well, all their damage pumps on 6+ go perfectly with Lightning Claws and Vets.

Not to mention the Nurgle fist hitting for 4 damage on Centurions.

I'm struggling to make a deamon engine list which I think would work.

I have a magnetized kytan, so sadly since he didn't get a points drop I think he will get some tracks and be a lord of skulls.

Good thing is I do think a lord of skulls with the new iron warrior stuff will have a much better chance of making it through the first couple of turns.

I was running some defilers, but to be honest they didn't serve me that well and I'm thinking if I keep them I'll make them gun platforms with twin Las.

Lord discordants are amazing, I have two already.

I guess my main issue with the deamon engines is they need a lord discordant baby sitter for the +1 to hit. I was thinking the iron warrior warlord trait to ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy could mean a big mobile fire base moving up to close combat. The extra hit on a 6 WLT also seems good (I guess technically the same as +1 hit?)

Any ideas to help me avoid shelving these models? I have also got some oblits which seem mandatory now.

 cole1114 wrote:
Night Lords host raptorials are probably gonna be pretty popular from here on out. A couple warp talon squads next to a same-mark herald or greater possessed will be putting out a LOT of +1S attacks. Pop in two heldrakes to get first-turn charges and proc vox scream and you've got a groovy alpha strike that can tie up a lot of shooting at once.

After that, you NEED a battalion. Whether that's iron warriors with cultists, obliterators, forge/maulerfiends, or khorne berzerkers with red butchers, or emperor's children noise marines for insane shooting, that's up to you. Hell take a red17 and a daemon detachment, whatever you wanna do.

It's silly to assume Greater Possessed will be anywhere near a Warp Talon squad. If his rules for some reason explicitly stated he didn't affect Warp Talons, nobody would bat an eye.

mrtomski wrote:
Any ideas to help me avoid shelving these models? I have also got some oblits which seem mandatory now.

Defilers are very good at opening up Knights and other big targets in melee. Less so in shooting.

You’re probably better off running them with the Scourge so they’re cheap enough to achieve threat saturation. Pop smoke, run into a 4++ bubble from the MoP, survive, heal up with regen stratagems and then pop Daemonforge in CC on the next turn.

Yoyoyo wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
Any ideas to help me avoid shelving these models? I have also got some oblits which seem mandatory now.

Defilers are very good at opening up Knights and other big targets in melee. Less so in shooting.

You’re probably better off running them with the Scourge so they’re cheap enough to achieve threat saturation. Pop smoke, run into a 4++ bubble from the MoP, survive, heal up with regen stratagems and then pop Daemonforge in CC on the next turn.

So this was exactly what I was doing, but the issue was they would either get killed, or when they did make it into combat, not perform that well. The other issue I had with them is the large size of them meant moving around was a pain.

On paper they do look good, but in practice they just haven't worked that well for me, which is why I'm thinking having them backfield using the cannon and las might be better.

The contrast to a lord discordant is stark, a LD is a powerhouse in melee, doesnt rely on anything and is 4" faster.

If you want a big beatstick and have the points, deespstrike in Skarbrand.

So I just ran:

x2 disco
X3 lord of skulls
mop
Sorc

Against space wolf list (boy did they ever get a big points decrease).

Daemonsmith ended up making me just hit with all my shots on avg in play.

I lost 1 lord of skulls, but it blew up in the middle of his army, dealing +20 mortal wounds once all was said and done. Game was basically over at that point.

What I learned: important to find the right balance between buffing units, and killy units. This list naturally has 3 killy units but having something like a daemonprince would help.

Master of Possession Cursed Earth not as relevant as I was expecting due to move speed and aura ranges, but sacrifice was awesome.

Iron Warriors stratagems are exactly what I needed to make this list work. Only thing that would be better is an auto explode strat.

New list is going to drop one discordant in favor of a tzeentch daemon prince.

weaver9 wrote:
So I just ran:

x2 disco
X3 lord of skulls
mop
Sorc

Against space wolf list (boy did they ever get a big points decrease).

Daemonsmith ended up making me just hit with all my shots on avg in play.

I lost 1 lord of skulls, but it blew up in the middle of his army, dealing +20 mortal wounds once all was said and done. Game was basically over at that point.

What I learned: important to find the right balance between buffing units, and killy units. This list naturally has 3 killy units but having something like a daemonprince would help.

Master of Possession Cursed Earth not as relevant as I was expecting due to move speed and aura ranges, but sacrifice was awesome.

Iron Warriors stratagems are exactly what I needed to make this list work. Only thing that would be better is an auto explode strat.

New list is going to drop one discordant in favor of a tzeentch daemon prince.

I guess he didn't have much shooting? Would be interested to know how that list fairs against a gun line army. Why tzeentch for the DP?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
If you want a big beatstick and have the points, deespstrike in Skarbrand.

Dont. If you want a beatstick use a FH DP with intoxicating elixir, diabolic strength, prescience, rapacious talons, ultimate confidence. Just dont roll a 1 for the talons.

mrtomski wrote:
So this was exactly what I was doing, but the issue was they would either get killed, or when they did make it into combat, not perform that well. The other issue I had with them is the large size of them meant moving around was a pain.

That’s a few different issues.

Defensively: They’re big so they can’t hide, they’re dangerous so they will get prioritized, and they’re T7 5++ so you should expect that they will get killed. So it becomes a distraction Carnifex. All you can do is give them defensive buffs (Cursed Earth, Smoke, Miasma, Stratagems) so they absorb more fire and keep them cheap to minimize points lost per model.

Offensively: Their attacks are high quality, maybe throw Diabolic Strength on one and then pop Daemonforge. 6x S18 AP3 attacks and 3x S14 AP2 attacks are pretty good man. But there are dice involved, you could do 4 damage as easily as 24. Lascannons aren’t going to make that problem go away. What you could do is improve their ability to land wounds with Prescience, Infernal Power, etc. Or use IW Tank Hunters to reroll damage results.

Footprint: This is a double edged sword, you can stop enemy movement but it will also stop yours. You can use Warptime to get one out of your way but physical model size is something you can’t change, you either have to take less (which will free up space) or play around it.

I dunno man. Maybe you are just expecting too much from them. If you’d rather have a more independent unit, Las Contemptors have BS2+ shooting. But of course you don’t get the CC capability, the ability to heal by any means, and any Daemon synergies like Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, 12 dmg hits with Virulent Blessing, etc.

mrtomski wrote:
I'm struggling to make a deamon engine list which I think would work.

I have a magnetized kytan, so sadly since he didn't get a points drop I think he will get some tracks and be a lord of skulls.

Good thing is I do think a lord of skulls with the new iron warrior stuff will have a much better chance of making it through the first couple of turns.

I was running some defilers, but to be honest they didn't serve me that well and I'm thinking if I keep them I'll make them gun platforms with twin Las.

Lord discordants are amazing, I have two already.

I guess my main issue with the deamon engines is they need a lord discordant baby sitter for the +1 to hit. I was thinking the iron warrior warlord trait to ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy could mean a big mobile fire base moving up to close combat. The extra hit on a 6 WLT also seems good (I guess technically the same as +1 hit?)

Any ideas to help me avoid shelving these models? I have also got some oblits which seem mandatory now.

Gnarlmaws and Daemons of Nurgle. Poxbringers or flying Daemon Princes. Everything Advances T1, shooting with everything and doing extra damage on high Wound Rolls. Soulforged Pack makes T1 charges doable, especially with Warptime. Remember to make your low Advance rollers keep the Gnarlmaw within reach for a T2 repeat. Oblits love Gnarlmaws, too - effective 0+ save, and nigh impossible to shut down shooting. Nurgle Defilers quite like Heavy Flamers - it makes it difficult to deal with them with a counter-charge unit.

Maybe even Epidemius - he’s a nice choice to stand with a Plageubearer horde covering home objectives, and it doesn’t take much to get him to project army-wide DP coverage.

As an alternative - Slaaneshi Daemonkin can also work well. If a few Fiends join in a Maulerfiend & LD first turn charge, your opponent can end up in a LOT of trouble. Defilers are essential in this list as a 72” threat that neutralises the ability of a medium range gunline list to force you to Light Brigade down a long table. And this is of course fantastic for the Oblits.

If you really like DE dakka, Tzeentch can be fun. Flickering Flames, Daemonspark, Horrors, Changeling - there’s options.

Khorne is ok. Rerolling charges on a stampede is handy. Not as good as advance & charge, and Nurgle’s buffs.

Great info on the deamons thanks, only issue is los is locked to khorne, do you think crimson crown is worth it / brings khorne on par?

Previously I was looking at tznch for the changeling 6+++

mrtomski wrote:

weaver9 wrote:
So I just ran:

x2 disco
X3 lord of skulls
mop
Sorc

Against space wolf list (boy did they ever get a big points decrease).

Daemonsmith ended up making me just hit with all my shots on avg in play.

I lost 1 lord of skulls, but it blew up in the middle of his army, dealing +20 mortal wounds once all was said and done. Game was basically over at that point.

What I learned: important to find the right balance between buffing units, and killy units. This list naturally has 3 killy units but having something like a daemonprince would help.

Master of Possession Cursed Earth not as relevant as I was expecting due to move speed and aura ranges, but sacrifice was awesome.

Iron Warriors stratagems are exactly what I needed to make this list work. Only thing that would be better is an auto explode strat.

New list is going to drop one discordant in favor of a tzeentch daemon prince.

I guess he didn't have much shooting? Would be interested to know how that list fairs against a gun line army. Why tzeentch for the DP?

I think you should be able to hide your disco lord behind one or two of the LOS they are massive models with solid cover. Should help for a static gunline without loads of bastalisks.

mrtomski wrote:
Great info on the deamons thanks, only issue is los is locked to khorne, do you think crimson crown is worth it / brings khorne on par?

Previously I was looking at tznch for the changeling 6+++

I mean, you can make both work.

CC and Changeling auras don’t require a mono Daemons detachment, so as long as you’re not heavily relying on a charge reroll aura, sounds ok. Could be a decent Battalion with Pink Horrors, a Tzeentch Herald, and Nurglings.

CC can’t be carried by Karanak, and Khorne DP really wants a Skullreaver, and BT is not a support character, so it’s a Herald. Which is great - when LoS is at its angriest, it’ll be S5, which means the million attacks will not bounce off of anything. I’d recommend a Juggernaut if you’re going to Warptime the LoS - the extra 2” can make the difference for keeping within earshot. (Plus, a bit better survivability against all the snipers that recently got improved.)

It’s Nurgle and Slaanesh that get the really good perks for mono detachments, so no great opportunity cost.