Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This IH list won the Middle of Nowhere GT in October.

Batallion:

Jpack Captain, power axe, storm shield
Jpack Chaplain, crozius (warlord)
Primaris lieutenant: Master crafted stalker bolt rifle

3 scout squads

3 storm hawk interceptors, all with 2 assault cannons, icarus stormcannon, skyhammer missile launcher.

spearhead detachment:

Iron Father "guy" Feirros

3 Repulsor Excutioner: All with 2 fragstorm grenade launcher, heavy laser destroyer, heavy onslaught gratling cannon, 2x storm bolter, twin heavy bolter, twin icarus ironhail heavy stubber.

The castle is Feiros and the 3 Repulsor executioners. But the 3 flyers can block scary melee attackers while doing a lot of shooting. Like I anticipate this list would use its 3 flyers to block your 3 LOS so they can't get into combat. And then, you have to math it out, who would win in a shooting match. The Iron father gives the 3 Repulsor executioners a 5++ invul save. Their chapter tactics give all IH vehicles a 6+++ FNP. They operate at close to their top bracket even when damaged, and most IH list also use the Ironstone relic, which allows nearby vehicles to reduce damage by 1. So all your 2 damage Hades Gratling cannon gets reduced to 1 damage.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
This IH list won the Middle of Nowhere GT in October.

Batallion:

Jpack Captain, power axe, storm shield
Jpack Chaplain, crozius (warlord)
Primaris lieutenant: Master crafted stalker bolt rifle

3 scout squads

3 storm hawk interceptors, all with 2 assault cannons, icarus stormcannon, skyhammer missile launcher.

spearhead detachment:

Iron Father "guy" Feirros

3 Repulsor Excutioner: All with 2 fragstorm grenade launcher, heavy laser destroyer, heavy onslaught gratling cannon, 2x storm bolter, twin heavy bolter, twin icarus ironhail heavy stubber.

The castle is Feiros and the 3 Repulsor executioners. But the 3 flyers can block scary melee attackers while doing a lot of shooting. Like I anticipate this list would use its 3 flyers to block your 3 LOS so they can't get into combat. And then, you have to math it out, who would win in a shooting match. The Iron father gives the 3 Repulsor executioners a 5++ invul save. Their chapter tactics give all IH vehicles a 6+++ FNP. They operate at close to their top bracket even when damaged, and most IH list also use the Ironstone relic, which allows nearby vehicles to reduce damage by 1. So all your 2 damage Hades Gratling cannon gets reduced to 1 damage.

This is dated I don't think the repulsers can get the invul anymore... there have been nerfs to the IH (not saying they aren't still top tier)

Ah ok. But the impossible to kill Leviathan is still possible right? Meta sure changes fast! lol

This GT winning list was barely 2 months ago.

Anyway, just change one of the Repulsors into a Relic Leviathan dreadnaught. It will still be a pretty deadly castle. Against a list like the triple LOS list previously posted, the invul makes no difference actually. Because Hades Gatling cannon is -2 AP. So, its a 5+ save either way. Its less OP, but the Leviathan is still super super tanky. And the repulsors still benefit from a whole bunch of other stuff including the 6+ FNP chapter traits.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Ah ok. But the impossible to kill Leviathan is still possible right? Meta sure changes fast! lol

Yes. You can still give it student of history, choose it as a target for the ironstone, and play duty eternal on it.

Just took a look at replusers, honestly they are insane for the price. How do we deal with 3 of those with buffs? Just have a lot of lascannons and hope for first turn?

Smite, hellfire missile, obliterators, LC havocs, LC hellforged contemptors, hellforged xiphon interceptors. Use AL for defensive strats, or IW for offensive strats.

mrtomski wrote:
Just took a look at replusers, honestly they are insane for the price. How do we deal with 3 of those with buffs? Just have a lot of lascannons and hope for first turn?

At least they can't make all 3 -1 damage and 5++ anymore. Oblits will still wreck 2 a turn with all the buffs. Plus there's very little they can do about it.

Iron warrior oblits will do around 40 wounds with lord, veterans, endless cacophony, rampant techno virus and tank hunters on one.

Also nightlord warptalons take them down a few notches if you're using mele rush. Turn off overwatch, charge in rest of army and turn off chapter master with vox scream.

 small_gods wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
Just took a look at replusers, honestly they are insane for the price. How do we deal with 3 of those with buffs? Just have a lot of lascannons and hope for first turn?

At least they can't make all 3 -1 damage and 5++ anymore. Oblits will still wreck 2 a turn with all the buffs. Plus there's very little they can do about it.

Iron warrior oblits will do around 40 wounds with lord, veterans, endless cacophony, rampant techno virus and tank hunters on one.

Also nightlord warptalons take them down a few notches if you're using mele rush. Turn off overwatch, charge in rest of army and turn off chapter master with vox scream.

I was thinking warptalons wouldnt help because they can just fly over them to get out of combat

Oblits seem like the strongest counter to me, yep, think I'm going to ensure I have a few in my IW list.

mrtomski wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
Just took a look at replusers, honestly they are insane for the price. How do we deal with 3 of those with buffs? Just have a lot of lascannons and hope for first turn?

At least they can't make all 3 -1 damage and 5++ anymore. Oblits will still wreck 2 a turn with all the buffs. Plus there's very little they can do about it.

Iron warrior oblits will do around 40 wounds with lord, veterans, endless cacophony, rampant techno virus and tank hunters on one.

Also nightlord warptalons take them down a few notches if you're using mele rush. Turn off overwatch, charge in rest of army and turn off chapter master with vox scream.

I was thinking warptalons wouldnt help because they can just fly over them to get out of combat

Oblits seem like the strongest counter to me, yep, think I'm going to ensure I have a few in my IW list.

Warptalons are only handy for taking up overwatch so you can charge the Iton Hands castle safely, with daemon princes, LDs etc. Also Iron hands really rely on their chapter master so you can make him just an expensive marine for a turn with vox scream.

Still seems like the old chaos knight x3 with thermal cannons might work if there is no invul? Just don't shoot the 24 inch range levi dread.

I know it isn't as popular post CA due to no point reductions but there is still the x3 chaos knights (dual thermals) with x3 lord discos and ahriman on a disc(?) that works for ITC and was posting some top 4's in the last few months.

So after multiple points decreases, the Lord of Skulls and the Kytan are in the same ballpark of points cost.

If I were to get one of those for Xmas, which should I get?

The LoS has more guns and better guns for almost the same price and can hide smaller character easily (like a MoP whom role is to buff him every single time with Cursed Earth and Infernal Power). It also has more wounds.

LoS > Kytan.

But the LoS looks silly.

I have a kytan, great model, but inferior to LOS with the current points values sadly. LOS all the way now.

Why:

50% more shots on main gun
Additional d6 shots on another gun
25% more wounds
No degrading ws or bs
MORE attacks as you degrade

All for a mere 20 more points with the hades and ichor setup.

LoS rocks.

Not sure if I want to add it to my Word Bearers or World Eaters

WB: can near guarantee a cast of a key spell

WE: extra attack, can benefit from a WB caring DH but not Malefic

If either of them get a Primarch, that’d decide it - I’d quite like a trio of Lords of War

 lindsay40k wrote:
LoS rocks.

Not sure if I want to add it to my Word Bearers or World Eaters

WB: can near guarantee a cast of a key spell

WE: extra attack, can benefit from a WB caring DH but not Malefic

If either of them get a Primarch, that’d decide it - I’d quite like a trio of Lords of War

The KloS sadly won't benefit from Legion traits, if that's what you're suggesting.

But another thing to consider is you have a WB detachment you can cast spells on units from another legion. So why not both?

So what do you guys use for troop choices these days? I am thinking of a big squad of 30 cultists and two squads of CSM with autocannon.

Slanaash cultists with FNP are pretty hardy, and on the CSM squads.

65 points for a squad of 5 which can be placed on a back objective, and can shoot 2 shots at 48 inches sound ok. If they are in cover, they are 2+ armor save too. So they can stand up to some shooting.

What do you guys take for your troop choices ? CSM? Marines? why?

Cultists. Cheap to fill a battalion and then used to deny DS and holding objectives as my real threats do what they should.

Marines in cover still dies fast as ignore cover and ap -1 exist so a 4+ save. But can be ok with your setup.

Yes, i recently played against incursors with my AL CSM. We both had cover, but he ignored the -1 to hit, and i had no cover, while his troops had 2 wounds each and a 2+ sv. It wasnt fun for me.

But I really hesitate to bring a squad of just 10 cultists as a troop choice. They die so easily. They are like giving free points or a free kill to the opponent. One good volley of mortar kills a squad of ten.

At least for a squad of 5 CSM in cover they need to try harder. Yes, I am sure they will still die with enough shooting. But they will at least need to put in more effort to kill that squad of 5 CSM. A squad of ten cultists falls over if anything even looks at their direction.

Cultists really aren't that less durable. To stuff that really starts putting the hurt on Marines, you're getting 3 wound to 1. Outside those stupid specific weapons, the Cultists will last longer. At 40 points it's just no competition.

10 rapid firing Intercessors (no buffs) kill 1.67 AL marines in cover (over 12" away) .

They kill 7.4 AL cultists under the same conditions, which is effectively a squad wipe on a 10-man unit.

I think that's a very big difference, against the most dominant troops choice in the game right now.

 grouchoben wrote:
10 rapid firing Intercessors (no buffs) kill 1.67 AL marines in cover (over 12" away) .

They kill 7.4 AL cultists under the same conditions, which is effectively a squad wipe on a 10-man unit.

I think that's a very big difference, against the most dominant troops choice in the game right now.

See that's what I'm kind of wondering. I'm starting to wonder if alpha legion csm are more efficient against most potential infantry and antihorde weapons you fight than cultists. Im not saying they're perfect, but it feels worth trying. Yes, there will be weapons more effective against marines than cultists, but I think point for point many anti infantry weapons clear cultists faster than AL marines. Most stuff ap0 or ap1 is definitely way less efficient against the marines, and if you go outside of 12" it loses additional hits.

So if your army only has marines and targets that are tougher like DP or vehicles, AL marines will probably be a more durable screen point for point, as they'll be getting shot with weapons typically taken to thin out GEQ and other infantry. At least against typical horde weapons like lasguns, bolters, punisher cannons, etc. Of course once plasma comes out the marines have a bad time, but you have the -1 to hit range to discourage it a bit and if an opponent is shooting plasma at my screen I'm probably happy he's shooting that and not havoc's, obliterators, etc.

Am I doing the math wrong? I feel like most weapons don't become more efficient at killing marines over cultists till you hit ap2 territory. Which would make the marines a better screen except for certain scenarios where you need that extra 2-3" of screen per unit, mortal wound spam, or most likely you just need the extra points elsewhere.

Yeah, I'm leaning the same way MrMoustaffa. I've been playing 5-man AL csm squads a bit, but suspect I'm biased by their amazing new kit and fluffyness! Combi bolter and chain axe on the champion, and that's it... Earlier reaper version just seems like too an big outlay.

They've done better than i was expecting, but I haven't taken them to a tournament or anything as of yet... The real point is that cultists just get shredded these days, whooo, marines utterly paste them. At least, for 15pts more, under some conditions, my troops can be a mild road-bump, instead of gobbets of cultists where my troops used to be.

 grouchoben wrote:
10 rapid firing Intercessors (no buffs) kill 1.67 AL marines in cover (over 12" away) .

They kill 7.4 AL cultists under the same conditions, which is effectively a squad wipe on a 10-man unit.

I think that's a very big difference, against the most dominant troops choice in the game right now.

Then what about the various Doctrines or other Bolt Rifle variants?

Plus if they are using their AP -2 or AP -3 weapons on your relatively cheap CSM troops instead of other more dangerous threats like your havocs or Obliterators, etc. Then I would say even if they died, they did their job well.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Plus if they are using their AP -2 or AP -3 weapons on your relatively cheap CSM troops instead of other more dangerous threats like your havocs or Obliterators, etc. Then I would say even if they died, they did their job well.

...you can say the same for the cheaper Cultists.

Yeah, but I would imagine opponent would reserve the AP0 and AP -1 weapons on stuff like cultists

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
10 rapid firing Intercessors (no buffs) kill 1.67 AL marines in cover (over 12" away) .

They kill 7.4 AL cultists under the same conditions, which is effectively a squad wipe on a 10-man unit.

I think that's a very big difference, against the most dominant troops choice in the game right now.

Then what about the various Doctrines or other Bolt Rifle variants?

This. AP-2 is now the standard rifle of the poster boy faction. My Slaanesh rushdown list recently ran at a Smurf gunline and came out the other side as a fine mist. My only *survivors* were three Cultist squads lurking backfield on objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
3x5 AL Heretacs sitting on backfield rooftops with an autocannon and poking objectives with a stick does sound ok. I’m in no rush to add renegades to my collection of Legions and I can see them being handy additions to my Word Bearers-led crusade. Bringing the sabotage strat is also very nice - I’ve won games by luckily detonating a big thing, and this turns every enemy tank into a cyclonic torpedo.

What would the two HQ be for this Sneaky Seventeen? Lord & Sorc? A DP with a cheeky Relic?

I’ve got a mountain of old Terminators I like to making into Oblits. Three Nurgle AL Oblits could be a strong addition to a Gnarlmaw DK list.

I don't think there's much point in nurgle oblits now with conceal on the cards. It's a better way to protect them and you can use endless cacophony with it.

Other than that I'd say Terminator lord and winged daemon princes are a strong choices.

You can only conceal one unit. What do you want with a termi lord ? He needs warptime every turn to get somewhere in time.