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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/17 19:42:31
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Warp-Screaming Noise Marine
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Not Online!!! wrote:Eldenfirefly wrote:What do you mean by Brittle but hard ? Not Online!!! I understand brittle, because Havocs are still 1W models, but hard? Hard in what sense?
Something can be hard, e.g. really durable, but also really weak to some other things like force from an unprepared side to the hard object.
think of it like steel armor plates. the harder the more brittle it becomes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittleness
Something can be extremely hard (e.g. an invulnerable save) but at the same time extremely brittle ( limited ammount of 1W models.) in game terms.
Hardness is the quality of a material to not change form. Egg shells are harder and more brittle than a rubber band, for example. If I hit an egg with a hammer it will break. If I hit a rubber band with a hammer it won’t likely change much at all because of its elasticity and ductility. Toughness is the overall resilience based on those factors and probably some other one I am forgetting...
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Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/17 19:45:18
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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macluvin wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:Eldenfirefly wrote:What do you mean by Brittle but hard ? Not Online!!! I understand brittle, because Havocs are still 1W models, but hard? Hard in what sense?
Something can be hard, e.g. really durable, but also really weak to some other things like force from an unprepared side to the hard object.
think of it like steel armor plates. the harder the more brittle it becomes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittleness
Something can be extremely hard (e.g. an invulnerable save) but at the same time extremely brittle ( limited ammount of 1W models.) in game terms.
Hardness is the quality of a material to not change form. Egg shells are harder and more brittle than a rubber band, for example. If I hit an egg with a hammer it will break. If I hit a rubber band with a hammer it won’t likely change much at all because of its elasticity and ductility. Toughness is the overall resilience based on those factors and probably some other one I am forgetting...
This , in game terms the listtype Tech proposes and with a Support invul prayer is brittle the invul is a Big boon sometimes, but weak when failed or ap- 1 shows up.it's also not particulary elastic because it Relies on a centercastle relying upon 2-3 specific auras.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/17 19:48:44
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Not Online!!! wrote:macluvin wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:Eldenfirefly wrote:What do you mean by Brittle but hard ? Not Online!!! I understand brittle, because Havocs are still 1W models, but hard? Hard in what sense?
Something can be hard, e.g. really durable, but also really weak to some other things like force from an unprepared side to the hard object.
think of it like steel armor plates. the harder the more brittle it becomes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittleness
Something can be extremely hard (e.g. an invulnerable save) but at the same time extremely brittle ( limited ammount of 1W models.) in game terms.
Hardness is the quality of a material to not change form. Egg shells are harder and more brittle than a rubber band, for example. If I hit an egg with a hammer it will break. If I hit a rubber band with a hammer it won’t likely change much at all because of its elasticity and ductility. Toughness is the overall resilience based on those factors and probably some other one I am forgetting...
This , in game terms the listtype Tech proposes and with a Support invul prayer is brittle the invul is a Big boon sometimes, but weak when failed or ap- 1 shows up.it's also not particulary elastic because it Relies on a centercastle relying upon 2-3 specific auras.
Well, I tried to be specific, it's not about survivability. It's about winning on points.
Even if there are no prayers / spells, it could get by just clearing the way to take objectives. You could lose 90% of the army by turn 4 and still have an overwhelming lead on points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/17 19:56:01
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Aye , it's a good Plan , now we only need the trial by fire done.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/17 20:01:42
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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techsoldaten wrote:I have not seen the 9th edition rulebook yet. Is holding an objective an ability? Some units can't hold objectives, which made me think it's possible. If it is, this is a lot more powerful than I've described.
All units except AIRCRAFT and FORTIFICATION can hold hold objectives. You don't need a ability to control objectives- raise the banners and other actions are optional secondaries. Holding objectives is based on whomever has the most models in range of the objective- 3 models can not contest or control an objective if there are 4 or more enemy models on the point, unless objective secured is in play. It's for that reason that I'm skeptical of trying to skip out on troops choices and play so heavily around your strategem. Even if you turn off obsec, 5 guardsmen will overrule 3 bikes on an objective. Without obsec you're putting yourself in a position where it isn't enough to reach an objective, you have to have enough lethality to reduce the number of enemy models on it so that you can contest, and the less models you commit to taking a point, the more enemy models you'll need to kill. With obsec turned off, 5 raptors would need to reduce the size of an enemy squad on a point down to 5 in order for you to contest that objective- you'd need to reduce them to 4 models if you wanted to actually control it. 3 bikes would need to reduce the enemy squad to 3 models in order for you to contest it- 2 models in order for your bikes to control it. If you're against a list with 50 intercessors and 2x5 man squads on each point in his backline, you can use world killers as much as you want, but unless you can clear 5 to 6 of them off the point in that turn you likely won't be contesting anything.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/07/17 20:03:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/17 20:58:37
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Morphing Obliterator
The Void
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The idea of mobile midfielding is good, but it has to be with decently durable units. You want to have a strong midfield presence that's hard to shift and can reach out to contest or claim any objective. That means durable units, and hybrid melee+ranged will do very well.
Havocs have great firepower, and bikes have great movement, but both are far too fragile. They'll just got shot. You need more durability. Daemon Engines and Helbrutes/Contemptors are all going to do very well in this role. A big squad of Terminators backed by a Sorc for warptime and prescience will also get a lot done (especially combi-plasma.) And of course there's Oblits.
The idea would be to spread out across the midfield and potentially be able to focus a lot of firepower onto any objective, and also move some durable units onto it from anywhere. Bring your own CSM in rhinos to keep them safe long enough to get some work done.
Alpha Legion would work well for this due to their trait helping durability so much, and of course their strats are nice too.
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Always 1 on the crazed roll. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/17 21:00:05
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp
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Spawn are now the cheapest unit per wound in the Chaos arsenal, at 5.75pts per wound they are even more economic than Cultists. Just an observation!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/17 21:14:45
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Yoyoyo wrote:Spawn are now the cheapest unit per wound in the Chaos arsenal, at 5.75pts per wound they are even more economic than Cultists. Just an observation!
Spawn were all through 8atleast okay .
It's only issue is randomness but i think i will probably retool my ghost marines to be a Brigade , running 2 spawn 3 obliterators for the respective Slots 5 raptors.
It could work out...
Will think a bit on it tommorow.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/17 22:34:56
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/17 23:17:27
Subject: Re:Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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Latro_ wrote: ArcaneHorror wrote:With the new rules, forgefiends being able to fire into melee definitely makes them better, but if I take the jaws, then I lose the ectoplasma cannon and its blast ability. Maybe one with jaws and one with the cannon.
yea but if you were running 3 thats another 75pts. Starts getting a lil bit expensive.
Good point, jaws might be the way to go then. I did have the idea for a new ability for forgefiends that if they killed a model in a unit with the jaws, they could either fire a second time in melee or heal a wound. This could only happen once when fighting unit no matter how many models were killed. Also, the jaws attack should be ported over to the maulerfiend as an additional attack to make up for the price increase.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/17 23:47:03
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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It's worth pointing out that while you may be able to shoot in combat with vehicles, you're taking a -1 penalty if you fire a heavy weapon.
A Foregefiend firing into combat with intercessors and then attacking the intercessors with daemon jaws is averaging two dead intercessors by the end of the phase. That's... okay, but not necessarily something I would want to try to build a strategy around.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 00:16:51
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Morphing Obliterator
The Void
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BlaxicanX wrote:It's worth pointing out that while you may be able to shoot in combat with vehicles, you're taking a -1 penalty if you fire a heavy weapon.
A Foregefiend firing into combat with intercessors and then attacking the intercessors with daemon jaws is averaging two dead intercessors by the end of the phase. That's... okay, but not necessarily something I would want to try to build a strategy around.
How many does a maulerfiend kill? And how many does the forgefiend kill with shooting in the ~2 turns it spends moving up before it gets into melee?
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Always 1 on the crazed roll. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 01:36:14
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Just to add to the discussion. It seems mechanised armies are back in a big way. Rhinos and all sorts of transports in all shapes and sizes are being used alot. The key thing is that they can rush troops to the midboard objectives fast, and after that, they make a great nuisance of themselves even after they have achieved their primary goal.
Observations are that if you can take the midboard objectives early and keep holding more of them than your opponent, its very hard for him to come back.
Once you are ahead in the objective VP points, even sacrificing most of your army, including your characters in order to preserve that lead is worth it. This is because the game only has 5 turns.
For example, turn 1, rush your Rhinos to the midboard, turn 2, your objec troops and the rest of your army piles on to the objective. And then you keep on throwing as much as you can onto into the fray so that you can hold at least 2 or 3, and hold more than your opponent. Keep that up from turn 2 to 4, and the gap between VPs gets untenable. Even if he has shot or killed most of your army by turn 4, its very hard for him to come back because he has only turn 4 or 5 to come back.
And the mechanic of counting up the VP for objectives at the start of your turn makes this even more pronounced. Let's say your opponent plans to play more "conservatively" and destroy more of your army before he plans to take back the midboard objectives. If he wants to start racking in more VPs than you by turn 4 and 5, he needs to shoot plus push you off the objectives and get his own troops onto those mid board objectives by turn 3 !!!
That is of course easier said than done if he took his own sweet time getting his army into position.
Consider: a "conservative" strategy by the opponent.
Turn 1, He lets you rush your Rhinos up, He marches his army up cautiously together, he focus his heavy support guns on your heavy support. So, the big guns trade fire, a lot of stuff obscured by terrain also.
Turn 2, you are all over the mid board with Rhinos, troops, and other units. Those just a bit further back and also well on their way to the midboard objectives. So, at this point, he continues to focus on clearing out your big guns, he is starting to fall behind. Because now you hold more. You might get 10 to 15 VP from main objectives while he gets 5.
Turn 3, at this point, if he is still not ready to make a big push to take the centre, he is in trouble, because you will once against get as much as 15 VP while he gets 5 again from main objectives. He may have totally desroyed all of your big guns, and you are now throwing characters and other elite, fast units all into the fray, and he is drawn into killing these "high priority" targets. You are now up to as much as 20 VP ahead just from main objectives.
Turn 4, he suddenly wakes up and start to realise he needs to catch up on Main objectives. He now throws all of his army onto those objectives. He has probably destroyed a big part of your fire power. But at this point, it may be too late. Even if he suceeds on pushing you off the midboard objectives this turn. He can't get those VP until turn 5. The main objectives VP is maybe even. lets say 10 to each. or 5, because all contested
Turn 5, most of your army is gone, he has taken most of the objectives, Its too late by now. He only gets 1 turn to enjoy getting 15 VP, you still get 5 maybe for holding a rear objective. Maybe he still has half an army left, and you have 2 units or 5 models. But the game ends at this point and he has lost the game.
The game has changed in a big way in 9th ed. Losing your heavy support shooting doesn't matter, losing even your characters doesn't matter. Even losing most of your army doesn't matter as long as you are ahead in VP and you keep that lead. Secondaries are important too, but in practise both sides will achieve some VP from secondaries. So unless your opponent was dumb and picked lousy secondaries while you managed to max out on a lot of yours, the difference in VP between secondaries is usually not a lot.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/18 01:53:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 02:17:05
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp
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True enough but if you can score 2 objectives on every turn, you're still scoring 40 VP out of a possible 45. Unless I'm reading the mission format incorrectly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 02:48:13
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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All specialist detachments confirmed banned for tournament use going forward.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/18 02:48:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 09:48:54
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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for the few playtest...i can tell perhaps we will see mechanized chaos lists guess AL, mobile, durable and with intersting tricks
LOD JP sorcerer bunch of slaanes termies, mix or maulerfiends/defilers/venomcrawlers chaos marines and 1 unit of plague all on rhinos, this was my try. Tried something similar with DG, with 3 PBC ,3 FBD with fleshmower, 3 contemptors with double claw 2xDP and 2x7 plague on rhino sure it need to be tweaked with new 9th ed points
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/18 10:08:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 11:45:53
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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BlaxicanX wrote:It's for that reason that I'm skeptical of trying to skip out on troops choices and play so heavily around your strategem. Even if you turn off obsec, 5 guardsmen will overrule 3 bikes on an objective. Without obsec you're putting yourself in a position where it isn't enough to reach an objective, you have to have enough lethality to reduce the number of enemy models on it so that you can contest, and the less models you commit to taking a point, the more enemy models you'll need to kill. With obsec turned off, 5 raptors would need to reduce the size of an enemy squad on a point down to 5 in order for you to contest that objective- you'd need to reduce them to 4 models if you wanted to actually control it. 3 bikes would need to reduce the enemy squad to 3 models in order for you to contest it- 2 models in order for your bikes to control it.
If you're against a list with 50 intercessors and 2x5 man squads on each point in his backline, you can use world killers as much as you want, but unless you can clear 5 to 6 of them off the point in that turn you likely won't be contesting anything.
Good points.
So World Killers works 2 ways. If your unit has ObSec, it wins. If your opponent has ObSec, it comes down to who has the most models.
So if you can get that single Cultist within 3", you win. Otherwise, you need one more model than your opponent.
I didn't say it was wise to skip out on troops choices.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote:The idea of mobile midfielding is good, but it has to be with decently durable units. You want to have a strong midfield presence that's hard to shift and can reach out to contest or claim any objective. That means durable units, and hybrid melee+ranged will do very well.
Havocs have great firepower, and bikes have great movement, but both are far too fragile. They'll just got shot. You need more durability. Daemon Engines and Helbrutes/Contemptors are all going to do very well in this role. A big squad of Terminators backed by a Sorc for warptime and prescience will also get a lot done (especially combi-plasma.) And of course there's Oblits.
The idea would be to spread out across the midfield and potentially be able to focus a lot of firepower onto any objective, and also move some durable units onto it from anywhere. Bring your own CSM in rhinos to keep them safe long enough to get some work done.
Alpha Legion would work well for this due to their trait helping durability so much, and of course their strats are nice too.
I guess the reason I favor MSU for this list is targeting.
There's durability of the unit, meaning high T and Sv. Then there's durability of the list, meaning have lots of small units that individually pose a threat and make your opponent have to target each one individually.
You're right, Alpha Legion is going to stand up to counter fire better than Black Legion. At the same time, Abaddon is going to give full rerolls for shooting and morale immunity. I'm not sure the answer is obvious which one would be the best, defensive or offensive advantage. The point is not to win firefights but to grab objectives better than the other guy, and I always think that means being able to overwhelm in individual match ups.
Alpha Legion's other advantages may be Stratagems. Forward Operatives, Conceal and Renascent Infiltration are really good if you are trying to cap points.
Yoyoyo wrote:Spawn are now the cheapest unit per wound in the Chaos arsenal, at 5.75pts per wound they are even more economic than Cultists. Just an observation!
Yep. Plus they move faster and have a leadership debuff, which will probably be important.
And you know there's going to be at least one unsecured objective each game.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Just to add to the discussion. It seems mechanised armies are back in a big way. Rhinos and all sorts of transports in all shapes and sizes are being used alot. The key thing is that they can rush troops to the midboard objectives fast, and after that, they make a great nuisance of themselves even after they have achieved their primary goal.
Observations are that if you can take the midboard objectives early and keep holding more of them than your opponent, its very hard for him to come back.
Once you are ahead in the objective VP points, even sacrificing most of your army, including your characters in order to preserve that lead is worth it. This is because the game only has 5 turns.
For example, turn 1, rush your Rhinos to the midboard, turn 2, your objec troops and the rest of your army piles on to the objective. And then you keep on throwing as much as you can onto into the fray so that you can hold at least 2 or 3, and hold more than your opponent. Keep that up from turn 2 to 4, and the gap between VPs gets untenable. Even if he has shot or killed most of your army by turn 4, its very hard for him to come back because he has only turn 4 or 5 to come back.
Have a wierd feeling Rhino Rush is going to be something that happens in this edition.
In 5th and 6th, I used to rush Rhinos midfield, deploy the troops, then create a wall of Rhinos to block out shooting angles. Vehicles can't move in the shooting phase anymore and units can't disembark before the Rhino moves, which makes it harder to do something like that.
But there's something interesting about vehicles being able to shoot in combat. I could see combi-bolter / flamer Rhinos being used to block out charges because, again, a lot of games are going to be won by controlling objectives. If you can get between an opponent and an objective, you can limit their scoring.
Might be a steal for an 80 point Rhino that's a dedicated blocking instrument.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 12:52:34
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Hmm, I just thought of something depressing. Scouts are going to be able to block a turn 1 Rhino rush. Because they can deploy forward and block the path the Rhinos. If he gets to go first, then turn 1, he can move the scouts even nearer, spread them out in a line in front of the Rhinos to block. Meanwhile, his transports rush onto the midboard objective turn 1. So he sacrifices the scouts turn 1 to block our Rhinos, and then turn 2, he deploys his Rhinos to block us even more.
And CSM can't get scouts unless we soup in chaos daemons for Nurglings...
Another strategy I thought of was the "counterpunch" on turn 1. Basically, you give the opponent turn 1, with the idea that your initial deployment is such that you have good firing lanes onto the midboard objectives, and your units are not only able to put heavy fire on anyone on those objectives, they can also charge AND destroy whatever is on those objectives. I am not sure what we have in our arsenal that can do this though.
But a good example would be to have clear lanes of fire to the midboard objectives, and flying assault units, including Daemon princes positioned well.
So, turn 1, assuming opponent starts first (or we let him go first), he charges his transports onto the midboard objectives. Now, our turn, our flying daemon princes and other jump pack troops fly to within close charge range of the midpoint objectives. We then blast his transports apart with shooting, his troops spill out, and then we shoot plus declare charge with our DP and jump pack units. We destroy whatever was in the transports and then consolidate onto the objectives.
This assumes we have the firepower to destroy the transports plus destroy the troops within.
BTW, can I check something? Are we able to use strategems like forward operatives multiple times to scout move multiple units forward? I remember something about it being a pre game strategem, so can be used multiple times. Also, in a game where mobility is important, warptime may become even more important now, because it basically doubles a unit's movement.
On another related point about blocking opponent from the objective. Bikes are actually quite good for that too. Turn 1, a Black legion bike can move advance 20 inches, which is ridiculous, and still shoot its combi bolters as an assault weapon, and a combi melta gun too. So, with that 20 inches move, we can spread out the bikes to block our opponent transports from being able to move forward onto the objectives. They will be sacrificed, most likely, but they may have achieved their purpose of blocking and causing a crucial delay. And its not like they didn't get to shoot before they died. Another unit that serves this purpose well is the helldrake. It is not an aircraft, and has ridiculous movement, so it can block too.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/18 13:07:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 13:06:20
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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Hmm, I just thought of something depressing. Scouts are going to be able to block a turn 1 Rhino rush. Because they can deploy forward and block the path the Rhinos. If he gets to go first, then turn 1, he can move the scouts even nearer, spread them out in a line in front of the Rhinos to block. Meanwhile, his transports rush onto the midboard objective turn 1. So he sacrifices the scouts turn 1 to block our Rhinos, and then turn 2, he deploys his Rhinos to block us even more.
And CSM can't get scouts unless we soup in chaos daemons for Nurglings...
that's why you get some kind of firepower in list, slaanesh termies, oblits or just PBC with mortars
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/18 13:06:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 13:09:07
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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blackmage wrote:Hmm, I just thought of something depressing. Scouts are going to be able to block a turn 1 Rhino rush. Because they can deploy forward and block the path the Rhinos. If he gets to go first, then turn 1, he can move the scouts even nearer, spread them out in a line in front of the Rhinos to block. Meanwhile, his transports rush onto the midboard objective turn 1. So he sacrifices the scouts turn 1 to block our Rhinos, and then turn 2, he deploys his Rhinos to block us even more.
And CSM can't get scouts unless we soup in chaos daemons for Nurglings...
that's why you get some kind of firepower in list, slaanesh termies, oblits or just PBC with mortars
The problem isn't about firepower. The problem is that even if we shot those blocking scouts off the board turn 1, they would have still achieved their purpose, which was to prevent our Rhinos from moving forward. Because movement phase happens before shooting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 13:17:19
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp
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There's probably some solutions that don't involve Nurglings. Heldrakes have enough mobility to bypass Scout units and jam up enemy movement. Beserkers with fight twice or 6" consolidates can use the scouts as a slingshot for extra distance. There's a few legion-specific stratagems for scout moves or infiltrate available. And of course you have Warptime which is one of the best utility powers in the game.
Nurglings are great, likely one of the better troop units in the game. Cultists and CSM don't stack up as well, but that's just how it is.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/18 13:18:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 13:18:41
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Hmm, red corsairs might be interesting. Turn 1, can move advance 6 MSU units of CSM squads with a combi melta forward. Shoot the meltas, and then charge anything nearby. Their bikes can literally first turn charge a transport that is on the front lines.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 14:04:53
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Yoyoyo wrote:There's probably some solutions that don't involve Nurglings. Heldrakes have enough mobility to bypass Scout units and jam up enemy movement. Beserkers with fight twice or 6" consolidates can use the scouts as a slingshot for extra distance. There's a few legion-specific stratagems for scout moves or infiltrate available. And of course you have Warptime which is one of the best utility powers in the game.
Nurglings are great, likely one of the better troop units in the game. Cultists and CSM don't stack up as well, but that's just how it is.
World Eaters have the Apoplectic Frenzy Stratagem. Let's them move 9" before the start of the first battle round.
It can be applied to as many units as you want.
Trouble is, they're World Eaters.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 15:52:51
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp
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A tactics article I just saw talked about putting 20 Infiltrators on the board before T1, in order to monopolize space and dictate game flow.
That's definitely pitching the ball in the CSM court for how they're going to break out of their deployment rather than get bottled up early.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 16:25:45
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yoyoyo wrote:A tactics article I just saw talked about putting 20 Infiltrators on the board before T1, in order to monopolize space and dictate game flow.
That's definitely pitching the ball in the CSM court for how they're going to break out of their deployment rather than get bottled up early.
Its a powerful tactic. But that means you are devoting 20x24 = 480 points into infiltrators and you plan to use them to suicide block and establish board control. This means they will be in exposed zones which are easy to be charged at and shot at. I guess for CSM, since we can't really match that kind of space monopolization, then what we can only do, is to focus our forces on killing off these 20 infiltrators (because they are likely deployed forward and easy charge targets). Kill of these 480 points of your opponent army on turn 1. Then turn 2, we hit the mid board objectives. We might be behind 1 turn in terms of VP, but now they have lost at least a quarter of their entire army and we still have turn 2 to 5 to turn it around.
Deploying so many infiltrators forward means that not only are they easy charge targets, but melee units can use them as stepping stones forward. Like a slow terminator unit can only move forward 5 inches normally. Now if they deployed these infiltrators so far forward to monopolise space and constrict your Rhino movement. Then our terminators can move forward, charge the infiltrators, and then consolidate 3 inches forward after that. End result, they will end turn 1 pretty far forward, certainly further forward than if they only moved 5 inches forward.
The game isn't just decided by what units are standing on it on turn 1 and 2. It is also decided by whose units are standing on it from turn 3 to 5. 9th edition feels like chess. There are strategies and counter strategies. If you over reach with your army turn 1, you could end up losing too much steam by turn 3 and then have nothing left to answer when your opponent takes all objectives on turn 4 and 5.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 17:41:54
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Combat Jumping Rasyat
East of England
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I think it's true that SM have been handed an absolutely massive buff in this edition because of their 3 scout-deployment troops choices. They acually have more scout troops than non-scout troops at this point.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 18:13:17
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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edit
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/18 18:15:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 20:58:40
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Waaagh! Warbiker
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Any opinions on kitting out CSMs now?
Have a few I want to get done building. Unsure about how champ loadouts are gonna look and I dont want to make to many back ups.
Combi bolters going up and combi plas going down makes me think about putting plas on all sargents now. only a 7pt difference between the two now.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 22:19:54
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Combat Jumping Rasyat
East of England
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Plas has been nerfed, with the amount of dense cover on a board.
I think a lascannon for 15pts is a solid pick for csm, and the reaper chaincannon didn't go up. I mean, we're paying 70 fething points for the base unit, might as well go in for another 15-20 and have them actually do something...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 22:32:18
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The terrible troops choices chaos has is the biggest problem with the faction. It has been for a long time, but GW just tripled down on it by bizarrely nerfing them more than other, much stronger troops choices.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/07/18 22:37:25
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Dr.Duck wrote:Any opinions on kitting out CSMs now?
Have a few I want to get done building. Unsure about how champ loadouts are gonna look and I dont want to make to many back ups.
Combi bolters going up and combi plas going down makes me think about putting plas on all sargents now. only a 7pt difference between the two now.
Auto cannon because it can do everything but especially well bullying primaris.
Something i approve Off. Automatically Appended Next Post: yukishiro1 wrote:The terrible troops choices chaos has is the biggest problem with the faction. It has been for a long time, but GW just tripled down on it by bizarrely nerfing them more than other, much stronger troops choices.
I still wonder why terminators didn't go up dir Chaos, beeing an actually really good to Broken unit with the right and relatively easy combo to pull Off..
Meh no issue for me considering i got 2x 5 cb Chance + reaper AC squads that will be now mainstay but wierd These pts are.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/18 22:39:17
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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