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Raichase wrote: Is it possible that there will be a CSMFAQ release alongside the official release of Chapter Approved that subtly adds the line "remove the Heretic Astartes keyword from the Cultist entry" on top of the points increase?
That wouldn't do anything to make CSM a more viable troops choice, but might make people think twice about using Cultists any more than as their minimum unit sizes to fill out the troops tax in the Battalion detachment.
I would sorely like to see a proper R&H codex with *proper* Cultists. In the Word Bearers books I'm basing my army around, the Cultists in the mountains of Tankareg are a gurrella militia force armed with missile launchers and heavy bolters, and they ambush the Imperial scout units. I'd love to see some proper traitor guard that we can soup with to be honest. Yeah sure it would be a cheap Battalion, but totally in theme for my army, and hopefully wouldn't include orders or command point generating relics/warlord traits. Because I really don't like them.
No, because that would entail GW actually understanding the problem. They don't (and ITC missions exacerbates it) so they can't fix what they don't "get". All they see is people are taking an inordinate amount of Cultists across lists. They don't get why that is the case (otherwise we would have seen CSM drops/improvements). It's part of the age-old issue. GW designers just don't understand the game as it's played outside of their bubble, so how can you expect them to properly balance and correct things when they never see the problem?
Even if we all wrote in explaining the real issue and suggest they remove Heretic Astartes from Cultists, they likely wouldn't do it. And I highly doubt Reece and crew are telling them what the actual issues are (if they are even allowed to; from what I understood GW's playtesting during 8th consisted of them saying "Here try out this premade list and see how it feels" without letting the issues with listbuilding rear their ugly heads. It could be that GW isn't actually using playtesters for feedback on what to change, just test what they've already decided)
It's funny and a little ironic that you say they don't understand the game, but removing Heretic Astartes would make it one of the most useless units in the game.
Or did you forget that Abaddon's morale bubble is triggered on Heretic Astartes?
Raichase wrote: Is it possible that there will be a CSMFAQ release alongside the official release of Chapter Approved that subtly adds the line "remove the Heretic Astartes keyword from the Cultist entry" on top of the points increase?
That wouldn't do anything to make CSM a more viable troops choice, but might make people think twice about using Cultists any more than as their minimum unit sizes to fill out the troops tax in the Battalion detachment.
I would sorely like to see a proper R&H codex with *proper* Cultists. In the Word Bearers books I'm basing my army around, the Cultists in the mountains of Tankareg are a gurrella militia force armed with missile launchers and heavy bolters, and they ambush the Imperial scout units. I'd love to see some proper traitor guard that we can soup with to be honest. Yeah sure it would be a cheap Battalion, but totally in theme for my army, and hopefully wouldn't include orders or command point generating relics/warlord traits. Because I really don't like them.
We can? There's the Index R&H from FW, though it's awful.
Cultists are the only good troop choice, or at least were. They got the point increase even though they dont get any of the strats/traits of the CSM ones so er... all of our troops are trash now?
Just to be clear, I play CSMs and R&H
1pt increase on CSM Cultists doesn't make them trash - it genuinely brings them into balance, imho. They should still lose access to VotLW.
CSMs/SMs are a dumpster fire though. They need to drop 1-2 points. The IG Infantryman should also go up a point to bring them to par with Cultists, but CA was written just pre-Castellan meta, so Guardsmen weren't dominating when it was finished, thus didn't warrant an increase.
The whole R&H index needs to be redone - it's hot garbage. At the Vigilus Open Day, GW stated they weren't working on a R&H codex, but maybe FW are. I would recommend just using the IG codex for now, as best one can. As I mentioned, GW's Gwilya - the perceived tax on non-Imperium stuff - is practically a thing.
BTW, I don't disagree that Cultists are utter garbage for R&H! They are, but that entire index's theme is trash.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/11 15:28:38
Raichase wrote: Is it possible that there will be a CSMFAQ release alongside the official release of Chapter Approved that subtly adds the line "remove the Heretic Astartes keyword from the Cultist entry" on top of the points increase?
That wouldn't do anything to make CSM a more viable troops choice, but might make people think twice about using Cultists any more than as their minimum unit sizes to fill out the troops tax in the Battalion detachment.
I would sorely like to see a proper R&H codex with *proper* Cultists. In the Word Bearers books I'm basing my army around, the Cultists in the mountains of Tankareg are a gurrella militia force armed with missile launchers and heavy bolters, and they ambush the Imperial scout units. I'd love to see some proper traitor guard that we can soup with to be honest. Yeah sure it would be a cheap Battalion, but totally in theme for my army, and hopefully wouldn't include orders or command point generating relics/warlord traits. Because I really don't like them.
We can? There's the Index R&H from FW, though it's awful.
Cultists are the only good troop choice, or at least were. They got the point increase even though they dont get any of the strats/traits of the CSM ones so er... all of our troops are trash now?
Just to be clear, I play CSMs and R&H
1pt increase on CSM Cultists doesn't make them trash - it genuinely brings them into balance, imho. They should still lose access to VotLW.
CSMs/SMs are a dumpster fire though. They need to drop 1-2 points. The IG Infantryman should also go up a point to bring them to par with Cultists, but CA was written just pre-Castellan meta, so Guardsmen weren't dominating when it was finished, thus didn't warrant an increase.
The whole R&H index needs to be redone - it's hot garbage. At the Vigilus Open Day, GW stated they weren't working on a R&H codex, but maybe FW are. I would recommend just using the IG codex for now, as best one can. As I mentioned, GW's Gwilya - the perceived tax on non-Imperium stuff - is practically a thing.
BTW, I don't disagree that Cultists are utter garbage for R&H! They are, but that entire index's theme is trash.
Oh yeah, I just put my R&H army off to the side right now. With CA, R&H are on the shelf for now, Tau suit only army is what I'm doing now. I hope FW is working on it, the entire thing does need to be redone I agree.
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
I am going to start with that, despite what I am going to say below, I think it is awesome that GW is at least trying to fix issues and balance problems an a regular basis. They are not doing the best job (Why did normal marines not get a drop?), but at least they are trying. Anyone who remembers having to wait years and years for fixes or a new codex so that maybe a unit would be balanced has to appreciate the current state of the game. That said, raising cultists to 5 points while not raising guard is ridiculous.
First, objectively, the Guardsmen is a better than a Cultist. One better save, one better leadership. Cultists have nothing innate that makes up for this disparity. So then we go to equipment, and Guardsmen have access to better heavy weapons and special weapons. So, just on the basis of the unit, the Guardsmen has better stats, and better access to equipment making them overall better.
Now people are saying that it is Cultists access to CSM stratagems/legion traits that justify the increase despite the above. However, Guardsmen have orders, which can improve them without spending command points and you can use the same order repeatedly. Are the orders as good as the CSM stratagems? Problem not, but are they close enough that in light of the objective inferiority of Cultists that it warrants the 1 additional point cost? Probably not. Furthermore, pricing a unit on what is can potentially do with stratagems etc. is a slippery slope, and does not seem to be the model for GW as the stratagems and traits seem to be "free". An example of why it is a problem to use points to balance when the stratagems are the issue is highlighted by the Thousand Sons Cultists. As a Thousand Sons player, my Cultists have access to VotLW and that is it. No slaneesh extra shooting, no coming back, no alpha legion trait, no fearless, etc. So, why are Thousand Sons Cultists the same price as CSM if the price is based on the stratagems? Solely for VotLW? That is ridiculous, especially in a Thousand Sons army, there are better units to use VotLW on. So, I would like to hear why Thousand Sons Cultists should be 5 points while a Guardsmen is 4.
Also, Guardsmen are also being abused to the same, if not greater, level as Cultists. GW did nothing to fix the CP battery. Every imperial army takes at least one, and the effect of all those extra CPs can be seen on how powerful Knights are from that extra screening and CP use. Why are Guardsmen not increased in points because they can be allied to other imperial detachments to provide cheap CP? There is just as much logic in that as making Cultists 5 points because of VotLW.
The real answer to the Cultist problem would have been leaving them 4 points, and removing access to VotLW and legion traits. There is precedent for this. Gretchens don't benefit from Ork Kultures, but can be included in the attachment. And VotLW already discriminates against units as Renegades are not allowed to use it. This would have fixed the issues with Cultists, and not created this crazy situation where an objectively better unit is less points.
Sir Heckington wrote: I hope FW is working on it, the entire thing does need to be redone I agree.
I wouldn't really count on FW to fix R&H. 8th Edition has been a real low point for them, for understandable reasons, and they just don't seem to be producing the quality or quantity of material that they used to. Knowing how long models are in the production pipe, we are still seeing things coming out that were started years ago. Rule wise, what we have had has been spotty or simply bad. I hope that they can turn it around in future because I love some of the things they have done. Vraks is my favourite campaign and my alpha pattern vanquisher and vulture are great models. My copy of Imperial Armour 1 2nd Edition is pretty much a high quality coffee table book. I eagerly await the next Imperial Armour, and hope the time being taken is really going to give a quality product.
Sir Heckington wrote: I hope FW is working on it, the entire thing does need to be redone I agree.
I wouldn't really count on FW to fix R&H. 8th Edition has been a real low point for them, for understandable reasons, and they just don't seem to be producing the quality or quantity of material that they used to. Knowing how long models are in the production pipe, we are still seeing things coming out that were started years ago. Rule wise, what we have had has been spotty or simply bad. I hope that they can turn it around in future because I love some of the things they have done. Vraks is my favourite campaign and my alpha pattern vanquisher and vulture are great models. My copy of Imperial Armour 1 2nd Edition is pretty much a high quality coffee table book. I eagerly await the next Imperial Armour, and hope the time being taken is really going to give a quality product.
Yeah, I don't really count on them being fixed soon, though I can't say I blame them. It's just kinda annoying, such cool models and fun lore and I can't use them unless I basically want to auto lose. I'd use them as guard but half of them are armed with melee weapons.
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
Sir Heckington wrote: Yeah, I don't really count on them being fixed soon, though I can't say I blame them. It's just kinda annoying, such cool models and fun lore and I can't use them unless I basically want to auto lose. I'd use them as guard but half of them are armed with melee weapons.
Genestealer Cults could perfectly represent a chaos uprising, with beastmen and mutants instead of the various genestealer things. You could even stretch the idea to have daemons as counts-as tyranids, or Guard as more organised heretics. You would miss out on astartes-themed stuff though.
Yeah, the biggest issue is my R&H have always been supported by a small group of IWs, the FW tyrant siege Terminators, though maybe I could find a use for them. I'll have to look at it.
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
Smirrors wrote: The main reason I can see it is that Tide of Traitors allows you to get free models. A full 40 man squad could regenerate up to 156 points. Realistically you weren;t going to wait till the last man dies to regen so lets say regen 30, thats still 120points you got effectively for free over your opponent.
The 2CP cost for ToT is effectively market rate now after FAQ2. Prior to it, 1CP to pick up a squad and redeploy was fair. Now its 2CP.
So if you took up to 120 cultists you and you get a good regen, you are still getting fair value out of the the unit.
fyi, admech battalions are now cheaper than guard battalions, but I doubt people will switch over. We'll see though.
They are cheaper but they also dont provide the body count and utility.
Renegades and Heretics provide the even worse Disloyal 32 at 170points for 5cp but doesnt seem a popular pick.
...then raise the CP cost for Tide Of Traitors. They already limited it to once per game, you might as well do that too. Cultists themselves aren't 5 point models.
Units shouldn't be balanced around Strategems. Strategems need to be balanced around units.
What part of free models that you dont pay for in points dont you understand from my point. The Stratagem cost is irrelevant. If you had to set aside points to use ToT depending on how many you want to bring on, would you still use it? No.
All GW has done is make you pay upfront for free models you get regardless if you use ToT.
Smirrors wrote: The main reason I can see it is that Tide of Traitors allows you to get free models. A full 40 man squad could regenerate up to 156 points. Realistically you weren;t going to wait till the last man dies to regen so lets say regen 30, thats still 120points you got effectively for free over your opponent.
The 2CP cost for ToT is effectively market rate now after FAQ2. Prior to it, 1CP to pick up a squad and redeploy was fair. Now its 2CP.
So if you took up to 120 cultists you and you get a good regen, you are still getting fair value out of the the unit.
fyi, admech battalions are now cheaper than guard battalions, but I doubt people will switch over. We'll see though.
They are cheaper but they also dont provide the body count and utility.
Renegades and Heretics provide the even worse Disloyal 32 at 170points for 5cp but doesnt seem a popular pick.
...then raise the CP cost for Tide Of Traitors. They already limited it to once per game, you might as well do that too. Cultists themselves aren't 5 point models.
Units shouldn't be balanced around Strategems. Strategems need to be balanced around units.
What part of free models that you dont pay for in points dont you understand from my point. The Stratagem cost is irrelevant. If you had to set aside points to use ToT depending on how many you want to bring on, would you still use it? No.
All GW has done is make you pay upfront for free models you get regardless if you use ToT.
The issue with that logic is that 40k is a game with 2 players the opponent does get a say in whats happening meaning charging people points up front for actions they may or may not take or that their opponent can potentially prevent them from taking leads to the mess that is/was the necron codex, where you over pay for stuff your opponent can remove from you very easily.
If the strategum is the problem recost the strategums not the unit.
xeen wrote: I am going to start with that, despite what I am going to say below, I think it is awesome that GW is at least trying to fix issues and balance problems an a regular basis. They are not doing the best job (Why did normal marines not get a drop?), but at least they are trying. Anyone who remembers having to wait years and years for fixes or a new codex so that maybe a unit would be balanced has to appreciate the current state of the game. That said, raising cultists to 5 points while not raising guard is ridiculous.
First, objectively, the Guardsmen is a better than a Cultist. One better save, one better leadership. Cultists have nothing innate that makes up for this disparity. So then we go to equipment, and Guardsmen have access to better heavy weapons and special weapons. So, just on the basis of the unit, the Guardsmen has better stats, and better access to equipment making them overall better.
Now people are saying that it is Cultists access to CSM stratagems/legion traits that justify the increase despite the above. However, Guardsmen have orders, which can improve them without spending command points and you can use the same order repeatedly. Are the orders as good as the CSM stratagems? Problem not, but are they close enough that in light of the objective inferiority of Cultists that it warrants the 1 additional point cost? Probably not. Furthermore, pricing a unit on what is can potentially do with stratagems etc. is a slippery slope, and does not seem to be the model for GW as the stratagems and traits seem to be "free". An example of why it is a problem to use points to balance when the stratagems are the issue is highlighted by the Thousand Sons Cultists. As a Thousand Sons player, my Cultists have access to VotLW and that is it. No slaneesh extra shooting, no coming back, no alpha legion trait, no fearless, etc. So, why are Thousand Sons Cultists the same price as CSM if the price is based on the stratagems? Solely for VotLW? That is ridiculous, especially in a Thousand Sons army, there are better units to use VotLW on. So, I would like to hear why Thousand Sons Cultists should be 5 points while a Guardsmen is 4.
Also, Guardsmen are also being abused to the same, if not greater, level as Cultists. GW did nothing to fix the CP battery. Every imperial army takes at least one, and the effect of all those extra CPs can be seen on how powerful Knights are from that extra screening and CP use. Why are Guardsmen not increased in points because they can be allied to other imperial detachments to provide cheap CP? There is just as much logic in that as making Cultists 5 points because of VotLW.
The real answer to the Cultist problem would have been leaving them 4 points, and removing access to VotLW and legion traits. There is precedent for this. Gretchens don't benefit from Ork Kultures, but can be included in the attachment. And VotLW already discriminates against units as Renegades are not allowed to use it. This would have fixed the issues with Cultists, and not created this crazy situation where an objectively better unit is less points.
That is just my two cents.
While I 100% agree, I'll just point out that CA was written pre-Castellan meta, so the Loyal 32 weren't anywhere near the powerhouse of the cell soup they are now. I'm guessing that's why they didn't nerf them.
Smirrors wrote: The main reason I can see it is that Tide of Traitors allows you to get free models. A full 40 man squad could regenerate up to 156 points. Realistically you weren;t going to wait till the last man dies to regen so lets say regen 30, thats still 120points you got effectively for free over your opponent.
The 2CP cost for ToT is effectively market rate now after FAQ2. Prior to it, 1CP to pick up a squad and redeploy was fair. Now its 2CP.
So if you took up to 120 cultists you and you get a good regen, you are still getting fair value out of the the unit.
fyi, admech battalions are now cheaper than guard battalions, but I doubt people will switch over. We'll see though.
They are cheaper but they also dont provide the body count and utility.
Renegades and Heretics provide the even worse Disloyal 32 at 170points for 5cp but doesnt seem a popular pick.
...then raise the CP cost for Tide Of Traitors. They already limited it to once per game, you might as well do that too. Cultists themselves aren't 5 point models.
Units shouldn't be balanced around Strategems. Strategems need to be balanced around units.
What part of free models that you dont pay for in points dont you understand from my point. The Stratagem cost is irrelevant. If you had to set aside points to use ToT depending on how many you want to bring on, would you still use it? No.
All GW has done is make you pay upfront for free models you get regardless if you use ToT.
The Strategem cost IS relevant. If GW made it 6CP overnight, would you still use it?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Isn't the price point of cultists purely an internal balance issue? It doesn't really matter how they compare to Guardsmen, as you never have a choice between the two. What you have to compare them to is other choices in your own faction, and whether they are still worth it over them. External balance is done on a force level, where you compare what armies you can build against each other. For example, it doesn't really matter if a force has cheap troops and expensive tanks, or cheap tanks and expensive troops, when comparing that army to others. What matters is the the complete lists you can build with it, such as taking loads of troops or tanks because they are cheap.
Please note, I'm speaking more generally about internal vs external balance and am aware that there are probably many examples of bad external balance for Chaos. I just mean that comparing Guardsmen to Cultists in a vacuum isn't really how external balance works.
Trickstick wrote: Isn't the price point of cultists purely an internal balance issue? It doesn't really matter how they compare to Guardsmen, as you never have a choice between the two. What you have to compare them to is other choices in your own faction, and whether they are still worth it over them. External balance is done on a force level, where you compare what armies you can build against each other. For example, it doesn't really matter if a force has cheap troops and expensive tanks, or cheap tanks and expensive troops, when comparing that army to others. What matters is the the complete lists you can build with it, such as taking loads of troops or tanks because they are cheap.
Please note, I'm speaking more generally about internal vs external balance and am aware that there are probably many examples of bad external balance for Chaos. I just mean that comparing Guardsmen to Cultists in a vacuum isn't really how external balance works.
If you wanted to talk INTERNAL, Cultists are still a better choice than Chaos Marines because Chaos Marines have no offensive power, and Cultists are about even with Cult Marines as a Troop choice.
Quite honestly the Chaos Marine profile needs to be deleted and Chosen should be their regular Troop choice.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Trickstick wrote: Isn't the price point of cultists purely an internal balance issue? It doesn't really matter how they compare to Guardsmen, as you never have a choice between the two. What you have to compare them to is other choices in your own faction, and whether they are still worth it over them. External balance is done on a force level, where you compare what armies you can build against each other. For example, it doesn't really matter if a force has cheap troops and expensive tanks, or cheap tanks and expensive troops, when comparing that army to others. What matters is the the complete lists you can build with it, such as taking loads of troops or tanks because they are cheap.
Please note, I'm speaking more generally about internal vs external balance and am aware that there are probably many examples of bad external balance for Chaos. I just mean that comparing Guardsmen to Cultists in a vacuum isn't really how external balance works.
If you wanted to talk INTERNAL, Cultists are still a better choice than Chaos Marines because Chaos Marines have no offensive power, and Cultists are about even with Cult Marines as a Troop choice.
Quite honestly the Chaos Marine profile needs to be deleted and Chosen should be their regular Troop choice.
Chosen need to be troops like the old "Chaos Space Marine Veterans" in 3.5 were for legions.
Honestly I would love to see cultists become similar to how the Tyrant's Legion list used to work. The masses of cheap men gave cover to their Marine betters, but took casualties in return. Would give a reason to take both, if points appropriate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 15:50:33
Trickstick wrote: Honestly I would love to see cultists become similar to how the Tyrant's Legion list used to work. The masses of cheap men gave cover to their Marine betters, but took casualties in return. Would give a reason to take both, if points appropriate.
That was one of my proposed rules! Cultists blocked Chaos Marine Infantry (probably not Bikers) from being shot like they were Characters.
Trickstick wrote: Isn't the price point of cultists purely an internal balance issue? It doesn't really matter how they compare to Guardsmen, as you never have a choice between the two. What you have to compare them to is other choices in your own faction, and whether they are still worth it over them. External balance is done on a force level, where you compare what armies you can build against each other. For example, it doesn't really matter if a force has cheap troops and expensive tanks, or cheap tanks and expensive troops, when comparing that army to others. What matters is the the complete lists you can build with it, such as taking loads of troops or tanks because they are cheap.
Please note, I'm speaking more generally about internal vs external balance and am aware that there are probably many examples of bad external balance for Chaos. I just mean that comparing Guardsmen to Cultists in a vacuum isn't really how external balance works.
If you wanted to talk INTERNAL, Cultists are still a better choice than Chaos Marines because Chaos Marines have no offensive power, and Cultists are about even with Cult Marines as a Troop choice.
Quite honestly the Chaos Marine profile needs to be deleted and Chosen should be their regular Troop choice.
Chosen need to be troops like the old "Chaos Space Marine Veterans" in 3.5 were for legions.
Exactly. The fact that nothing has Vet stats at minimum is frankly an insult.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 16:10:10
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Eldarain wrote: Access to easy Fearless, full rerolls to hit, +1 to wound, fire twice make them rather formidable.
Though Guardsmen should have taken a hit too.
Guardsmen have ways to get fearless too through soup.
Not to mention they provide a cheap, flexible battery for CP to other armies (Knights, Custodes), while having their good cheap options as well (Mortars, various artillery)
That said, I feel like the cultist nerf wasn't warrented; they already killed the tactic that made them work with Alpha legion, plus the nerf to tide of traitors. They weren't really that much of a thing recently...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 16:13:22
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Exactly. The fact that nothing has Vet stats at minimum is frankly an insult.
Chaos used to get the consolation prize for not having ATSKNF of +1 LD, to represent their hardened, cynical nature and the thousands of years spent battling in the warp.
Apparently that was just a bad trip though that never really happened.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Eldarain wrote: Access to easy Fearless, full rerolls to hit, +1 to wound, fire twice make them rather formidable.
Though Guardsmen should have taken a hit too.
Guardsmen have ways to get fearless too through soup.
Not to mention they provide a cheap, flexible battery for CP to other armies (Knights, Custodes), while having their good cheap options as well (Mortars, various artillery)
That said, I feel like the cultist nerf wasn't warrented; they already killed the tactic that made them work with Alpha legion, plus the nerf to tide of traitors. They weren't really that much of a thing recently...
They also have a relic that gives Fearless too, don't they? It's supposed to be a Pistol or something?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They also have a relic that gives Fearless too, don't they? It's supposed to be a Pistol or something?
Yes, Pietrov's MK 45, you can never lose more than 1 model from morale. Unfortunately, it is limited to Valhallan, which are one of the less taken regiments. You can also do a thing by giving a Commissar the draconian disciplinarian warlord trait. According to the FAQ, the Commissars's ability interacts with that trait in such a way that you kill one model for a reroll, but if that is also failed you simply lose d3 models instead of whatever. 1+d3 is not the best, but can be a lot less than some morale losses.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They also have a relic that gives Fearless too, don't they? It's supposed to be a Pistol or something?
Yes, Pietrov's MK 45, you can never lose more than 1 model from morale. Unfortunately, it is limited to Valhallan, which are one of the less taken regiments. You can also do a thing by giving a Commissar the draconian disciplinarian warlord trait. According to the FAQ, the Commissars's ability interacts with that trait in such a way that you kill one model for a reroll, but if that is also failed you simply lose d3 models instead of whatever. 1+d3 is not the best, but can be a lot less than some morale losses.
Well people are saying Cultists can be Fearless, but that's limited just like this pistol.
It's broken until you're allowed to have it apparently, according to Guard players anyway.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's broken until you're allowed to have it apparently, according to Guard players anyway.
A few Guard players maybe. Sweeping generalisations just create a weird "us vs them" situation. Personally I like hordes of crazed cultists, gives me something to use The Emperor's holy lasguns on.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's broken until you're allowed to have it apparently, according to Guard players anyway.
A few Guard players maybe. Sweeping generalisations just create a weird "us vs them" situation. Personally I like hordes of crazed cultists, gives me something to use The Emperor's holy lasguns on.
If you've read this thread you'd see why I made that statement.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's broken until you're allowed to have it apparently, according to Guard players anyway.
A few Guard players maybe. Sweeping generalisations just create a weird "us vs them" situation. Personally I like hordes of crazed cultists, gives me something to use The Emperor's holy lasguns on.
Thats the issue overall; Cultists have been toned down tremendously, so the points bump seems like the nail in the coffin. Guardsdudes have proven to be too cheap for what they do, yet they are left untouched... the balls
Zid wrote: Thats the issue overall; Cultists have been toned down tremendously, so the points bump seems like the nail in the coffin. Guardsdudes have proven to be too cheap for what they do, yet they are left untouched... the balls
Same thing happened to conscripts. A triple hit: points, order nerf, commissar nerf. Any two of those would have been good, all three mean you never see them. Personally, I think they should go back to three points because they are useless now. However, I doubt complaining about conscripts is going to get me much love in this thread...
