Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Same way they are better then purfires. you can fit storm guardian in to an eldar list and it will still function, it won't function as well on the highest tournament level against the best of the best soups. But against everything else your still have and edge.

If you think that storm guardians are the worse eldar units, and maybe they are I don't know. Then compare them to the worse GK unit.
Lets say SG have bad resilience and bad offensive power. But they are at least cheap. The worse GK unit, and you can pick which one of you think it is. Will be not resilient, with a bad offensive power AND it will cost a lot of points.
That is the difference.

Saying GK's worst unit is worse than CWE's worst unit isn't as meaningful (and was quite wrong pre-CA - CWE had worse units than GK, they just also had better). Your previous claim was that CWE's worst units are still better than GK's best. That's a very different claim.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
GK's just needs a new codex. Point changes wont do it.

They really should have their own Powers chart that all units can use and is a cast on 5+ using 2D6, each unit can only be effected once, but you can use the same power multi times.

+3" movement or always runs 6"
+1 to hit in melee
+1 to hit in shooting
+1 atk in melee
+1 to Str in melee
Overwatch on 5+

This will give them a unique power system, this will let you use your overcosted units to a better purpose when and where you need.

This, but these "unlimited use" powers should be:

Hammerhead
Sanctuary
Psy Bolt Ammo (instead of strategum)

Add in the old rule "True Grit", as Grey Knights can fire their storm bolters as pistols in CC, this is more characterful than simply adding more attacks and could be combined with psybolts for a devastating 2nd round of assault.

"The Ageis" a 6+++ to psychic mortal wounds.

Put "The Shrouding" in the normal tree as -1 to hit friendly Grey Knights units within 6".

Then you'd have cool, powerful Grey Knights.

Mike712 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
GK's just needs a new codex. Point changes wont do it.

They really should have their own Powers chart that all units can use and is a cast on 5+ using 2D6, each unit can only be effected once, but you can use the same power multi times.

+3" movement or always runs 6"
+1 to hit in melee
+1 to hit in shooting
+1 atk in melee
+1 to Str in melee
Overwatch on 5+

This will give them a unique power system, this will let you use your overcosted units to a better purpose when and where you need.

This, but these "unlimited use" powers should be:

Hammerhead
Sanctuary
Psy Bolt Ammo (instead of strategum)

Add in the old rule "True Grit", as Grey Knights can fire their storm bolters as pistols in CC, this is more characterful than simply adding more attacks and could be combined with psybolts for a devastating 2nd round of assault.

"The Ageis" a 6+++ to psychic mortal wounds.

Put "The Shrouding" in the normal tree as -1 to hit friendly Grey Knights units within 6".

Then you'd have cool, powerful Grey Knights.

Im 100% sure you would know better than me (assuming you play GK more than me). So i agree with you.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
GK's just needs a new codex. Point changes wont do it.

They really should have their own Powers chart that all units can use and is a cast on 5+ using 2D6, each unit can only be effected once, but you can use the same power multi times.

+3" movement or always runs 6"
+1 to hit in melee
+1 to hit in shooting
+1 atk in melee
+1 to Str in melee
Overwatch on 5+

This will give them a unique power system, this will let you use your overcosted units to a better purpose when and where you need.

This, but these "unlimited use" powers should be:

Hammerhead
Sanctuary
Psy Bolt Ammo (instead of strategum)

Add in the old rule "True Grit", as Grey Knights can fire their storm bolters as pistols in CC, this is more characterful than simply adding more attacks and could be combined with psybolts for a devastating 2nd round of assault.

"The Ageis" a 6+++ to psychic mortal wounds.

Put "The Shrouding" in the normal tree as -1 to hit friendly Grey Knights units within 6".

Then you'd have cool, powerful Grey Knights.

Im 100% sure you would know better than me (assuming you play GK more than me). So i agree with you.

You got the core idea spot on.

As a fully psychic army, GK need powers that are scaleable to game sizes where you can cast more than 6 powers, but not broken when used on mass. Smite spam is just lazy, bad game design.

This is already well reprisented amongst the current once per turn abilities/strats, Hammerhand, Sanctuary & Psybolts. If they were not affected by psychic focus, it would be strong and characterful, but not broken e.g. MW spam which then has to be hamstringed to being near useless apart from against Daemons where it becomes near broken (regardless of what people say about that one Daemon strat, my old list was chucking out 39 potential mortal wounds vs Daemons per turn).

I also threw in some updated versions of the unique GK rules dating back to the 3rd edition Daemon Hunters codex, just because they are flavourful. GK in their current iteration worse than being low performers(for me at least) is they are bland and one dimensional. GK can be made stronger without making them into custodes.

Need a few people to email them about that.

GK should be getting a power similar to eldar format where you choose one of the two effects, and not limited to once a phase.

Baby smite is, as many of agree, is a lazy way of dealing with psychic heavy army that is not eldar.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Need a few people to email them about that.

They were e-mailed a ton. Posts, drafts and people affirming they did it were all over her and Bolter & Chainsword. Doesn't seem to have worked

fukafukahokari wrote:
I thought by cutting the point costs for Grey Knights units and characters would give them an edge in terms of numbers, but GW is also cutting some points from other armies, even so already strong ones like Tyranids.

Tyranids got points decreased on ONE unit that was already seeing some play, and increases to 2 others that were seeing far more play. The rest of the changes were improving stuff that sucked ass.

Tyranids did not get any sort of power spike at all. Complain all you want about GK, but the logic used for this one is poor.

Audustum wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Need a few people to email them about that.

They were e-mailed a ton. Posts, drafts and people affirming they did it were all over her and Bolter & Chainsword. Doesn't seem to have worked

Yeah I had started a post on the GK Facebook page as well and lots people indicated they emailed.
I even put I my email that I like that they are elite, so I would prefer new rules over a point drop.

But realistically GK are one small faction in a game with a ton of factions so they can only devote so much time to "redoing" them so I'm expecting them to get fixed eventually but over a couple years with a slow trickle of rules/point changes spread over multiple faqs/chapter approved

Flamephoenix182 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Need a few people to email them about that.

They were e-mailed a ton. Posts, drafts and people affirming they did it were all over her and Bolter & Chainsword. Doesn't seem to have worked

Yeah I had started a post on the GK Facebook page as well and lots people indicated they emailed.
I even put I my email that I like that they are elite, so I would prefer new rules over a point drop.

But realistically GK are one small faction in a game with a ton of factions so they can only devote so much time to "redoing" them so I'm expecting them to get fixed eventually but over a couple years with a slow trickle of rules/point changes spread over multiple faqs/chapter approved

I have eternal hope they will be fixed, eventuay, in similar fashion. For now, largely shelf ornaments

There is no way to fix marines in general (MEQ in power armor) with out scaling the offensive output of most armies or moving armor saves to 2d6 or some other defensive buff. Right now, to most things that people are bringing even to a semi competitive game, marines die pretty much the same as guardsmen. Marines are paying for stats and armor as they should but it doesn't matter because they will never come up or be relevant in game.

Grey Knights are extra sucky because they have all the above problems while being stupid expensive.

Dieing isn't a problem is long as your winning, or at least the units are doing what they are suppose to do.
am I wrong here , do people actually want 100 marines that never die?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:

fukafukahokari wrote:
I thought by cutting the point costs for Grey Knights units and characters would give them an edge in terms of numbers, but GW is also cutting some points from other armies, even so already strong ones like Tyranids.

Tyranids got points decreased on ONE unit that was already seeing some play, and increases to 2 others that were seeing far more play. The rest of the changes were improving stuff that sucked ass.

Tyranids did not get any sort of power spike at all. Complain all you want about GK, but the logic used for this one is poor.

Well we got a point drop on 2 units we are using, so if tyranids were better then us, imo by a mile, and they got 1 unit updated with lower point costs. Then the end result is that tyranids are still in a much better position.

But realistically GK are one small faction in a game with a ton of factions so they can only devote so much time to "redoing" them so I'm expecting them to get fixed eventually but over a couple years with a slow trickle of rules/point changes spread over multiple faqs/chapter approved

Ok, but this can go on for decades like that. Bad rules, means no new players pick the army up, few old players play the armies, and the old players sure like hell aren't buying new stuff. This leaves accidental army starting by a very small group of people, and if they can afford it, those will switch armies. Plus GW may as well say, that if something is selling a lot, then people like the product so all is well and never fixt it. IMO the only way to get a good GK rule set is to get someone really passionate about GK to design the rules. The chance of it happening in real life is zero though.

Big issue is from what I've seen is the "Core" of every army stayed the same.

As in for the majority of the armies the Troops stayed the same, while the Specialists got CHEAP.

To the point that as a GKplayer. It is hamstringing me to waste points on Terminators / Strike Squads when Paladins & Interceptors are so cheap.

Which is "encouraging" me to go for a cheap Guard detachment for my CP.


Also. IDK why GKTerminators are so expensive:

A Vanilla Terminator w/ a Thunderhammer & Stormbolter (yes Illegal loadout) is 13pts cheaper than a GKTerminator w/ a Daemonhammer & Stormbolter.

Both have the same weapon
Vanilla has +1Ld. Otherwise same stats

Vanilla are Fearless & have teleport beacons
GK have Daemonbane & Psyker

13ppm for "Psyker tax" is ridiculous.

Arn't you only suppose to use the best things from GK? So a supreme command detachment of a pair of GMDK, and Draigo?

Reemule wrote:
Arn't you only suppose to use the best things from GK? So a supreme command detachment of a pair of GMDK, and Draigo?

Too expensive. I'd keep GK at the shelf and wait for the next ed.

Reemule wrote:
Arn't you only suppose to use the best things from GK? So a supreme command detachment of a pair of GMDK, and Draigo?

Using that logic, I might as well only run the best things from IMPERIUM and take Custodes/ Bangels instead.

Loafing wrote:
Big issue is from what I've seen is the "Core" of every army stayed the same.

As in for the majority of the armies the Troops stayed the same, while the Specialists got CHEAP.

To the point that as a GKplayer. It is hamstringing me to waste points on Terminators / Strike Squads when Paladins & Interceptors are so cheap.

Which is "encouraging" me to go for a cheap Guard detachment for my CP.


Also. IDK why GKTerminators are so expensive:

A Vanilla Terminator w/ a Thunderhammer & Stormbolter (yes Illegal loadout) is 13pts cheaper than a GKTerminator w/ a Daemonhammer & Stormbolter.

Both have the same weapon
Vanilla has +1Ld. Otherwise same stats

Vanilla are Fearless & have teleport beacons
GK have Daemonbane & Psyker

13ppm for "Psyker tax" is ridiculous.

Term w/ TH & SB isn't illegal for SW; though I'm not up to date on SW Term costs with the new CA.

 Lord Clinto wrote:


Term w/ TH & SB isn't illegal for SW; though I'm not up to date on SW Term costs with the new CA.

Wolf Guard Terminator w/ TH & SB costs the same as a Vanilla Terminator.

So 13 points cheaper than a Grey Knight Terminator with the same loadout.

 SHUPPET wrote:

fukafukahokari wrote:
I thought by cutting the point costs for Grey Knights units and characters would give them an edge in terms of numbers, but GW is also cutting some points from other armies, even so already strong ones like Tyranids.

Tyranids got points decreased on ONE unit that was already seeing some play, and increases to 2 others that were seeing far more play. The rest of the changes were improving stuff that sucked ass.

Tyranids did not get any sort of power spike at all. Complain all you want about GK, but the logic used for this one is poor.

All the nid changes make sense except the HVC and VC buffs. Those weapons were already worth their points IMO.

Tyrano / Toxicrine / Exocrine / Swarmy all seem to be in the playable area now. So Nidzilla is looking pretty good now. The only core build to get stronger is carnifex spam and not by much - really just by a total amount that barely covers the 90 point neuro.

Loafing wrote:
Big issue is from what I've seen is the "Core" of every army stayed the same.

As in for the majority of the armies the Troops stayed the same, while the Specialists got CHEAP.

To the point that as a GKplayer. It is hamstringing me to waste points on Terminators / Strike Squads when Paladins & Interceptors are so cheap.

Which is "encouraging" me to go for a cheap Guard detachment for my CP.


Also. IDK why GKTerminators are so expensive:

A Vanilla Terminator w/ a Thunderhammer & Stormbolter (yes Illegal loadout) is 13pts cheaper than a GKTerminator w/ a Daemonhammer & Stormbolter.

Both have the same weapon
Vanilla has +1Ld. Otherwise same stats

Vanilla are Fearless & have teleport beacons
GK have Daemonbane & Psyker

13ppm for "Psyker tax" is ridiculous.

GW really just need to uncouple the force weapons from the base cost even if it exposes the discounted force weapons. The biggest problem with the daemonhammer is you're still paying for the force weapon you paid for, which is stupid - that and it costs more than a fist on it's own now.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I have a solution to all the moaning about Grey Knights; instead of throwing them in the dumpster, send them my way. Seriously, if you have Grey Knights, have only hatred of them, PM me and I'll take them for you. I'll deal with the shipping, and you can end the masochistic torture of your plastic soul.

To be clear, so nobody misunderstands...I'm offering to collect your army (not buy it!!), but I'll pay for the shipping. I'm sure every GK player is lining up for THAT offer

Is that a true opportunist I see lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Saying GK's worst unit is worse than CWE's worst unit isn't as meaningful (and was quite wrong pre-CA - CWE had worse units than GK, they just also had better). Your previous claim was that CWE's worst units are still better than GK's best. That's a very different claim.

I am sorry, CWE?
There are simply too many acronyms.

Sorry, CWE is 'CraftWorld Eldar', which is what people are usually talking about when they're saying 'Eldar' without qualifying it as 'Dark' or something

Loafing wrote:
Big issue is from what I've seen is the "Core" of every army stayed the same.

As in for the majority of the armies the Troops stayed the same, while the Specialists got CHEAP.

To the point that as a GKplayer. It is hamstringing me to waste points on Terminators / Strike Squads when Paladins & Interceptors are so cheap.

Which is "encouraging" me to go for a cheap Guard detachment for my CP.


Also. IDK why GKTerminators are so expensive:

A Vanilla Terminator w/ a Thunderhammer & Stormbolter (yes Illegal loadout) is 13pts cheaper than a GKTerminator w/ a Daemonhammer & Stormbolter.

Both have the same weapon
Vanilla has +1Ld. Otherwise same stats

Vanilla are Fearless & have teleport beacons
GK have Daemonbane & Psyker

13ppm for "Psyker tax" is ridiculous.

Ikr, I am already trying to get over the cost of normal troops pre-CA, my army consists of mainly a bunch of purifers and paladins anyways.

Karol wrote:
Dieing isn't a problem is long as your winning, or at least the units are doing what they are suppose to do.
am I wrong here , do people actually want 100 marines that never die?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:

fukafukahokari wrote:
I thought by cutting the point costs for Grey Knights units and characters would give them an edge in terms of numbers, but GW is also cutting some points from other armies, even so already strong ones like Tyranids.

Tyranids got points decreased on ONE unit that was already seeing some play, and increases to 2 others that were seeing far more play. The rest of the changes were improving stuff that sucked ass.

Tyranids did not get any sort of power spike at all. Complain all you want about GK, but the logic used for this one is poor.

Well we got a point drop on 2 units we are using, so if tyranids were better then us, imo by a mile, and they got 1 unit updated with lower point costs. Then the end result is that tyranids are still in a much better position.

But realistically GK are one small faction in a game with a ton of factions so they can only devote so much time to "redoing" them so I'm expecting them to get fixed eventually but over a couple years with a slow trickle of rules/point changes spread over multiple faqs/chapter approved

Ok, but this can go on for decades like that. Bad rules, means no new players pick the army up, few old players play the armies, and the old players sure like hell aren't buying new stuff. This leaves accidental army starting by a very small group of people, and if they can afford it, those will switch armies. Plus GW may as well say, that if something is selling a lot, then people like the product so all is well and never fixt it. IMO the only way to get a good GK rule set is to get someone really passionate about GK to design the rules. The chance of it happening in real life is zero though.

Dont get me wrong I'm used to playing with non updated rules. I played dark eldar back in 5th edition. Using the most recent codex which was from 3rd.
But there is no need to be crazy negative. GW us trying and most game companies move slowly when rebalancing since changing points and rules at the same time is easy to make a problem worst or accidentally introduce a broken interaction. Especially when your design team's focus is split between new stuff and rebalancing old stuff.

Bharring wrote:
Sorry, CWE is 'CraftWorld Eldar', which is what people are usually talking about when they're saying 'Eldar' without qualifying it as 'Dark' or something

Oh ok. I am just checking either I said this or not since I never play xenos, (the closest thing to playing eldar is shadowguide in blackstone fortress) but then I realised you are not directing to me.
How is Craftworlds anyways? I heard bad stuff about them but I also feel like they have some cool units, especially the wraithseer stuff like that. Feels like they got kind of a unfocused vibe to them since most of their units can do both melee and shooting. (which also applies for Grey Knights, I am guess this is also one of the reason why they are over costed in the first place, versatilitiy is not really that important in the game IMO, you have chargers and you have shooters)

CWE has been one of the top books more than any other book in this game. They aren't #1 this edition, but they're definitely top tier.

They have a ton of cool fluff and options for modelling. Unfortunately, most of their infantry is still Finecast, and some of their units still require upgrade kits.

As for their vibe, it might look unfocused until you get it working. Instead of focusing on melee or shooting, they focus on using both for the right parts. So they should have some shooting and some melee, and they should typically be different units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for 'most of their untis can do melee and shooting' - that's only really true of Shining Spears. And, in that case, only true within 6".

CWE units aren't intended to have versatility. For most use cases, a CWE unit will be better at one thing, but worse at everything else. So really good at melta, but no CC and bad at shooting infantry. Or really good (supposedly) mulching hordes in CC, but bad at facing elites or doing any sort of dakka.

Their GravTanks are different. Where their infantry (and bikers) are hyperspecialized, CWE transports are probably the only vehicles in 40k that could pass a modern Highway Safety crash test. And every CWE transport is also a tank (as in Predator, not as in an IFV like a Razorback). But that's just the Serpent and the Falcon.

Bharring wrote:
Saying GK's worst unit is worse than CWE's worst unit isn't as meaningful (and was quite wrong pre-CA - CWE had worse units than GK, they just also had better). Your previous claim was that CWE's worst units are still better than GK's best. That's a very different claim.

GK worse unit is worse then eldar worse unit. GK best unit is worse then Eldar worse unit. GK don't have mid units. Eldar do. Eldar are great as soup. GK are bad as soup component, with zero synergies with other imperials. And yes stormguardians comparing to bad GK units are better.

They aren't #1 this edition, but they're definitely top tier.

they aren't the number one after knight soup came in to existance. Your talking about eldar, as if Inari didn't exist.

But there is no need to be crazy negative. GW us trying and most game companies move slowly when rebalancing since changing points and rules at the same time is easy to make a problem worst or accidentally introduce a broken interaction. Especially when your design team's focus is split between new stuff and rebalancing old stuff.

how am I crazy negative. Am just stating the facts. GW had what 3 big FAQ and 2 CA to make GK good, but they didn't do it. They didn't even make them mid tier. All the fixs they got in the last CA are not GK specific, but the same type changes other marine factions got. A ton of characters got cheaper for all marines. all dreads got cheaper for all marines. But for other marines other stuff got cheaper too. Stormshields, plasma etc And by the way even with those changes people much smarter then me on this very forum say that normal marines are still meh. If everyone gets a 10% discount, save for factions that were already running at 150% efficiency, then all the change does is make GK players buy more models. But it doesn't make their armies work better. Not with rule of 3, not with how deep strike works right now.

But even if I am wrong and crazy negative, then where are all those legions of GK players and people that switched armies that go back to their GK lists, where are the threads about using GK in peoples soups? Am I blind, that I don't see those people ?

"GK worse unit is worse then eldar worse unit."
What, exactly, do you consider to be GK's worst unit? CWE's would probably be the WK (at least until CA), but I'm not sure I know of GK units worse than the current WK.

"they aren't the number one after knight soup came in to existance. Your talking about eldar, as if Inari didn't exist. "
I'm talking about CWE. Ynnari aren't actually CWE. DE are definitely above CWE, and have been since their book launched. IG are above CWE. Ynnari, if it were counted as a faction, is above CWE. Knights are above CWE. With the exception of Knights, all that was true before Knights got their codex. So how can CWE be #1 when DE and IG, at least, are above them?

"if everyone gets a 10% discount, save for [$opLists], [$otherEffect]. But it doesn't make their armies work better."
*That's* how you're being crazy negative. If everyone but $opLists gets a 10% discount, and $opLIsts are currently the best, then everyone but $opLists have armies that work 10% better vs the best stuff.

Worst GK unit is a tough one because there's a LOT of garbage in there.

My pick is either the regular Dreadknight or Purifiers/Crowe.