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Crimson wrote: I really don't think this game needs more rerolls. The durability buff the marines need is to move fully to Primaris and either nerfing or increasing the cost of some of the D2 weapons in the game.
2W would help but so would a reroll, The reroll adds more durability but slows down the game.
Possibly just giving all marines on base a 6+ Invulnerable save would probably help.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Brutus_Apex wrote: The white knighting of GW rules is insane here. You are welcome to enjoy the game as much as you want, but that does not make 8th Ed. A good rules set. It’s frankly quite terrible.
Popularity has never, ever been an indicator as to how good something is. Just look at the VHS vs Beta technology back in the 80’s. Beta was superior in every way quality wise. The only reason VHS won out is because the Porn industry adopted it as its medium of choice due to its lower manufacturing cost.
There is so much wrong with 40k, it hurts my head to think about why they would have designed it like that. And AOS is even worse.
I’m not trying to be mean here, but the entirety of GW games development team should be fired.
8E 40K has an “okay” set of rules - not great, but not the worst thing either. The big problem is the rule set was written for a casual crowd, by a casual-to-story focused company and with a much lower point value in mind than the company is actually pushing. Further, the game never has been, nor will it ever be suitable for a competitive-style game. It’s been shoehorned to work in tournaments because a whole segment of the community would lose their top if GW didn’t make an attempt to acknowledge their existence.
The last thing we need is more Re-rolls. I like the idea of giving all marines Fury of the Legion. Fire twice with bolters but have to reload next turn. Marines should really shred stuff at 12 inches. I don't think durability is an issue. You want the game to be fun for both people. And if that means marines die, then so be it. Remember how annoying it was to play against the Decurion?
Banville wrote: The last thing we need is more Re-rolls. I like the idea of giving all marines Fury of the Legion. Fire twice with bolters but have to reload next turn. Marines should really shred stuff at 12 inches. I don't think durability is an issue. You want the game to be fun for both people. And if that means marines die, then so be it. Remember how annoying it was to play against the Decurion?
We could also limit so that you can only take 1 super heavy per a 2k points. Then have it so all knights were super heavys.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Infantry, Walkers, Bikers, Cavalry all gain the following buffs:
1. Reroll failed armor saves. Invulnerable saves are not rerolled. This gives units an added layer of durability against smaller arms fire. It requires that people bring anti-armor guns to bear to deal with marines. Currently you don't need to, because anything that kills guardsmen is more efficient points wise at killing marines.
2. ATSKNF improved. Marine units can elect to auto-pass morale checks.
3. 10-man unit boosts. Marine units with 10 models can take an extra sergeant, as well as two extra special weapons. Currently there is no reason to bring more than 5 models, because you need sergeants and the special weapons scale linearly. So a 10 man unit has: 2 sergeants, 3 special weapons, 5 tac marines. Whereas 2 5x man units has 2 sergeants, 2 special weapons, and 6 tac marines. It's a slight improvement of scale, and also, with the improvement to ATSKNF they won't be wiped off of the table.
4. Primaris upgrade. Any unit can pay 4 points to get the primaris upgrade, for +1W, +1A base per model. So if you wanted to make jump-pack primaris assault marines you could. They would gain the PRIMARIS keyword which would restrict their transport options. This could also be a pre-battle stratagem costing 1CP which could target a unit.
5. Deadly Accuracy. Hit rolls of 6 add an extra AP to the weapon. So hit rolls of 6 in shooting or melee with a boltgun or a chainsword would be resolved at -1 instead of AP0. Marines would be better at clearing other light infantry.
Barf.
The only thing in there that's really palatable is ATSKNF buff.
And
quote: Slayer-Fan123 "Durability is fine. It's the offensive power they lack."
Slayer-Fan and I agree on this. Slayer-Fan and I NEVER agree. But he's 100% right on this. Marine durability is fine. Any improvement to marine durability heads straight into novel-*ank-ville, and makes most other basic infantry feel like ****. Right now a full squad of Guardsmen rapid-firing only take down a single marine. If the marine is in cover, it takes two full squads firing at short range to take one down. It takes four squads rapid-firing to kill a Terminator. Improvements to marine durability are unnecessary.
Marines die because they are infantry in a tank battle, and that's fine.
I remember posting an article about this, but PPM its that a single plasma gun rapid firing into a squad of guardsmen will do much more damage to a squad of space marines.
So don't waste your time shooting your Plasma into Guardsmen. Shoot it at the tank behind them.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/13 19:51:39
It confuses me that people complain about how massed infantry fire does more pts of damage to Marines than Guardsmen.
Isn't that how it should be? Aren't Guard supposed to be meatshields, there to absorb firepower so that it doesn't damage more valuable things? If anything, the problem is that with their orders, cheapness, and 8th Ed AP system, Guardsmen have much better firepower for the points, and that's not how it should be at all.
I don't like the idea of Marines auto-passing morale, but then again, I don't like how morale currently has minimal impact on the game. If morale were reworked to allow units like Guardsmen to be rendered combat-ineffective with relatively few casualties, then having much superior morale would make Marines much more resilient in comparison.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/13 19:56:13
In general they should quite a bit more damage than they do.
Fluff wise, they are a blitzkreig type shock and awe force that strikes the enemy at its weakest point and breaks it with overwhelming force.
Their current competitive list...gun line. How boring can you get?
They should be a force to reckon with at short range. In both melee and shooting.
Almost none of their rules reflect this. Their stat line is over-costed and subpar.
A lot of people think that marines should be more survivable, when in reality they need to do more damage to reflect their fluff and to fix the army in general.
definitely agree here, in the fluff marines are basically special forces who drop in from thunderhawk or drop pod with a companycor demi company sized force and rip the heart out of the enenmy causing massive damage. on the tabletop though they act like smaller more armoured guardsmen.
So don't waste your time shooting your Plasma into Guardsmen. Shoot it at the tank behind them.
what...
That isn't what. Here read this
At 24 inches, a Guardsman firing at a Predator (T7, 3+ AS) causes 0.0069 Wounds per Point (hereafter referred to as WPP for brevity’s sake): 1 shot, hitting 50% of the time, wounding 16% of the time and going through the tank’s armour 33% of the time will do 0.027 wounds, which is then divided by the model’s cost (4 points), giving us 0.0069 WPP. At the same range, a Tactical Marine will cause 0.0056 WPP to the vehicle: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 33% of the time and defeating the tank’s armour 33% of the time causes 074 wounds, which is then divided by the model’s cost (13 points), giving us 0.0056 WPP. If you’re even the least bit good at math, you will have already calculated that the Guardsman does over 20% more Wounds per Point that a Tactical Marine against the Predator.
“Well, so what? It’s not like shooting at tanks is what Bolters are supposed to be good at, anyways!”
True, but the bad news is that it only goes downhill from here:
At 24 inches, a Guardsman firing at a Chaos Marine (T4, 3+ AS) will cause 0.0138 WPP: 1 shot hitting 50% of the time, wounding 33% of the time and going through the armour 33% of the time will cause 0.055 wounds. Divided by model cost of 4 points leaves us with 0.0138 WWP. At the same range, a Tactical Marine will cause 0.0085 WPP to his heretical counterpart: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 50% of the time and going through the filthy corrupted armour 33% of time will cause 0.111 wounds; divided by 13 points, we get 0.0085 WPP. So, that’s over 60% more WPP against the Chaos Marine for the Imperial Guardsman. Ouch.
“Hmm… well ok, that’s bad, but bolters have always been best at shredding light infantry anyways!”
Hang on to your hat, my friend!
At 24 inches, a Guardsman firing at another Guardsman will cause 0.0416 WPP: 1 shot hitting 50% of the time, wounding 50% of the time and going through the armour 66% of the time will cause 0.166 wound, which is then divided by the model’s cost of 4 points = 0.0416 WPP. At the same range, a Tactical Marine will cause 0.0227 WPP: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 66% of the time and going through the armour 66% of the time, divided by a model cost of 13 pts = 0.0227 WWP. That is over 80% more WPP in favour of the Guardsman! Holy smokes!
“Well, ok, Tacticals don’t do a lot of damage, but at least they are durable, right?”
Are they really, though? Let’s take a look:
A 4-points Guardsman will suffer 0.66 WPP from a Chaos Cultist (BS 4+) firing an autogun (S3 Ap0) at him from 24 inches away: 1 shot hitting 50% of the time, wounding 50% of the time and bypassing the flak armour 66% of time will cause 0.16 wounds, which is then multiplied by the model’s cost (4 points), giving us 0.66 WPP suffered. A 13-points Tactical Marine will suffer 0.72 WPP from the same Chaos Cultist: 1 shot hitting 50% of the time, wounding 33% of the time, bypassing the Marine’s armour 33% will cause 0.05 wounds, which multiplied by 13 (points), gives us 0.72 WPP. So the Tactical Marine will suffer about 8% more WPP than the Guardsman will in this instance. That’s unbalanced but within the realm of the tolerable. The thing is that once again, that’s just the tip of the iceberg…
When shot at by a Chaos Marine (BS 3+) wielding a Boltgun (S4 Ap 0), our Guardsman loses 1.18 WPP: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 66% of the time and bypassing the Guardsman’s armour 66% of the time causes 0.29 wounds, which multiplied by 4 points gives us 1.18 WPP. In the same situation, our Tactical Marine will suffer 1.44 WPP: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 50% of the time and bypassing power armour 33% of the time will cause 0.11 wounds, which multiplied by 13 points gives 1.44 WPP. In this scenario, our Tactical Marines suffers over 20% more WPP than the Guardsman! And if you think that’s bad, just wait when we introduce a weapon with a good AP into the mix!
When shot by a Tempestus Scion Stormtrooper (BS 3+) with a Plasmagun (S7 Ap -3), a Guardsman will suffer 2.22 WPP: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 83% of the time and completing negating his armour will cause 0.55 wounds. Multiplied by 4 points gives us 2.22 WPP. In the same situation, our Tactical Marine will lose 4.81 WPP: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 66% of the time and bypassing the armour 83% of the time will cause 0.37 wounds. Multiplied by 13 gives us 4.81 WPP.
catbarf wrote: It confuses me that people complain about how massed infantry fire does more pts of damage to Marines than Guardsmen.
Isn't that how it should be? Aren't Guard supposed to be meatshields, there to absorb firepower so that it doesn't damage more valuable things? If anything, the problem is that with their orders, cheapness, and 8th Ed AP system, Guardsmen have much better firepower for the points, and that's not how it should be at all.
I don't like the idea of Marines auto-passing morale, but then again, I don't like how morale currently has minimal impact on the game. If morale were reworked to allow units like Guardsmen to be rendered combat-ineffective with relatively few casualties, then having much superior morale would make Marines much more resilient in comparison.
I think their major issue is that the durability decreases so dramatically among space marines saying "oh well they are better than ever with having their save completely decrease by every single -ap is better than any other edition!" Is missing the point, you rarely have you +3 save because everyone can ignore it so easily. -AP weapons are far more common because of specialists being inexpensive and knights being run in every army. Marines having more damage might solve the issue but that doesn't fix their fundamental flaw, which is their +3 save not saving them at all.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/13 20:22:14
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
So don't waste your time shooting your Plasma into Guardsmen. Shoot it at the tank behind them.
what...
That isn't what. Here read this
At 24 inches, a Guardsman firing at a Predator (T7, 3+ AS) causes 0.0069 Wounds per Point (hereafter referred to as WPP for brevity’s sake): 1 shot, hitting 50% of the time, wounding 16% of the time and going through the tank’s armour 33% of the time will do 0.027 wounds, which is then divided by the model’s cost (4 points), giving us 0.0069 WPP.
At the same range, a Tactical Marine will cause 0.0056 WPP to the vehicle: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 33% of the time and defeating the tank’s armour 33% of the time causes 074 wounds, which is then divided by the model’s cost (13 points), giving us 0.0056 WPP.
If you’re even the least bit good at math, you will have already calculated that the Guardsman does over 20% more Wounds per Point that a Tactical Marine against the Predator.
“Well, so what? It’s not like shooting at tanks is what Bolters are supposed to be good at, anyways!”
True, but the bad news is that it only goes downhill from here:
At 24 inches, a Guardsman firing at a Chaos Marine (T4, 3+ AS) will cause 0.0138 WPP: 1 shot hitting 50% of the time, wounding 33% of the time and going through the armour 33% of the time will cause 0.055 wounds. Divided by model cost of 4 points leaves us with 0.0138 WWP.
At the same range, a Tactical Marine will cause 0.0085 WPP to his heretical counterpart: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 50% of the time and going through the filthy corrupted armour 33% of time will cause 0.111 wounds; divided by 13 points, we get 0.0085 WPP.
So, that’s over 60% more WPP against the Chaos Marine for the Imperial Guardsman. Ouch.
“Hmm… well ok, that’s bad, but bolters have always been best at shredding light infantry anyways!”
Hang on to your hat, my friend!
At 24 inches, a Guardsman firing at another Guardsman will cause 0.0416 WPP: 1 shot hitting 50% of the time, wounding 50% of the time and going through the armour 66% of the time will cause 0.166 wound, which is then divided by the model’s cost of 4 points = 0.0416 WPP.
At the same range, a Tactical Marine will cause 0.0227 WPP: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 66% of the time and going through the armour 66% of the time, divided by a model cost of 13 pts = 0.0227 WWP.
That is over 80% more WPP in favour of the Guardsman! Holy smokes!
“Well, ok, Tacticals don’t do a lot of damage, but at least they are durable, right?”
Are they really, though? Let’s take a look:
A 4-points Guardsman will suffer 0.66 WPP from a Chaos Cultist (BS 4+) firing an autogun (S3 Ap0) at him from 24 inches away: 1 shot hitting 50% of the time, wounding 50% of the time and bypassing the flak armour 66% of time will cause 0.16 wounds, which is then multiplied by the model’s cost (4 points), giving us 0.66 WPP suffered.
A 13-points Tactical Marine will suffer 0.72 WPP from the same Chaos Cultist: 1 shot hitting 50% of the time, wounding 33% of the time, bypassing the Marine’s armour 33% will cause 0.05 wounds, which multiplied by 13 (points), gives us 0.72 WPP.
So the Tactical Marine will suffer about 8% more WPP than the Guardsman will in this instance. That’s unbalanced but within the realm of the tolerable. The thing is that once again, that’s just the tip of the iceberg…
When shot at by a Chaos Marine (BS 3+) wielding a Boltgun (S4 Ap 0), our Guardsman loses 1.18 WPP: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 66% of the time and bypassing the Guardsman’s armour 66% of the time causes 0.29 wounds, which multiplied by 4 points gives us 1.18 WPP.
In the same situation, our Tactical Marine will suffer 1.44 WPP: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 50% of the time and bypassing power armour 33% of the time will cause 0.11 wounds, which multiplied by 13 points gives 1.44 WPP.
In this scenario, our Tactical Marines suffers over 20% more WPP than the Guardsman! And if you think that’s bad, just wait when we introduce a weapon with a good AP into the mix!
When shot by a Tempestus Scion Stormtrooper (BS 3+) with a Plasmagun (S7 Ap -3), a Guardsman will suffer 2.22 WPP: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 83% of the time and completing negating his armour will cause 0.55 wounds. Multiplied by 4 points gives us 2.22 WPP.
In the same situation, our Tactical Marine will lose 4.81 WPP: 1 shot hitting 66% of the time, wounding 66% of the time and bypassing the armour 83% of the time will cause 0.37 wounds. Multiplied by 13 gives us 4.81 WPP.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
catbarf wrote: It confuses me that people complain about how massed infantry fire does more pts of damage to Marines than Guardsmen.
Isn't that how it should be? Aren't Guard supposed to be meatshields, there to absorb firepower so that it doesn't damage more valuable things? If anything, the problem is that with their orders, cheapness, and 8th Ed AP system, Guardsmen have much better firepower for the points, and that's not how it should be at all.
I don't like the idea of Marines auto-passing morale, but then again, I don't like how morale currently has minimal impact on the game. If morale were reworked to allow units like Guardsmen to be rendered combat-ineffective with relatively few casualties, then having much superior morale would make Marines much more resilient in comparison.
I think their major issue is that the durability decreases so dramatically among space marines saying "oh well they are better than ever with having their save completely decrease by every single -ap is better than any other edition!" Is missing the point, you rarely have you +3 save because everyone can ignore it so easily. -AP weapons are far more common because of specialists being inexpensive and knights being run in every army. Marines having more damage might solve the issue but that doesn't fix their fundamental flaw, which is their +3 save not saving them at all.
I remember posting an article about this, but PPM its that a single plasma gun rapid firing into a squad of guardsmen will do much more damage to a squad of space marines.
Did you mean:" . . .a single plasma gun rapid firing into a squad of guardsmen will do much more damage than a squad of space marines."?
I still don't get how we get from your statement to the long post.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 20:10:47
Did you mean:" . . .a single plasma gun rapid firing into a squad of guardsmen will do much more damage than a squad of space marines."?
No
Marines are dealt more damage to the entire unit and are less effective because of their points cost. If two of them die to a single plasma gun rapid fire that is 28pts down the drain, giving guardsmen and everyone wide access to ap-3 destroys space marines competitive edge.
I read that you need to read.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
I read that my original post to your statement is spot on.
"a single plasma gun rapid firing into a squad of guardsmen will do much more damage to a squad of space marines."
Don't waste your time firing plasma at Guardsmen. Shoot at something that will give a better return on points, if that's your metric.
I read that my original post to your statement is spot on.
"a single plasma gun rapid firing into a squad of guardsmen will do much more damage to a squad of space marines."
Don't waste your time firing plasma at Guardsmen. Shoot at something that will give a better return on points, if that's your metric.
How does that solve the problem? If a guardsmen squad does more PPW to space marines, and space marines suffer WPM how is that a 'good' metric. You can't just ignore an entire squad of guardsmen that is lunacy, especially for space marines. Read the article and at least understand that stand point.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Blndmage wrote: If people are worried about durability, why not have a reroll on any successful roll to wound any ASTARTIES INFANTRY.
It'd be an ASTARTIES only thing.
Rerolls slow down the game as is.
I think the best thing for marines is the ability to ignore all weapons with a strength less than the marines toughness lowers that ap - by 1.
So
Iron within Iron Without (something along those lines)
Due to having superior toughness than most beings and near inhuman ability to recover from almost any wound. Space Marines may ignore 1 ap from any ranged weapon or close combat weapon if the opposing unit or weapon has less total strength than the toughness of the space marine.
It would make bikes very powerful, aggressors incredibly durable, and all space marine tanks ungodly powerful. This would have to be fine tuned but marines are already expensive removing combat squads for that ability would make them the most durable units in the game. Especially their vechiles and dreadnoughts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 20:30:09
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Crimson wrote: People, no fiddly special rules. TWO WOUNDS! That's simple and easy.
That makes deathguard worse then!
Not if they get two wounds too! Just squat the minimarines and give all the remaining marines the Primaris statline. That is actually workable under the current system.
What if, instead of squatting MiniMarines, we came to the conclusion that the gulf in capability between Real Marines and Primaris Marines is smaller than the gulf between stats? So they use the same rules?
An Ork Boy is less capable than an Ork Boy that's 10% bigger, but they both use the same statline and rules.
Bharring wrote: What if, instead of squatting MiniMarines, we came to the conclusion that the gulf in capability between Real Marines and Primaris Marines is smaller than the gulf between stats? So they use the same rules?
An Ork Boy is less capable than an Ork Boy that's 10% bigger, but they both use the same statline and rules.
Sure, that's fine too. The point ultimately being that the old marine statline does not work whilst the primaris statline can work.
I read that my original post to your statement is spot on.
"a single plasma gun rapid firing into a squad of guardsmen will do much more damage to a squad of space marines."
Don't waste your time firing plasma at Guardsmen. Shoot at something that will give a better return on points, if that's your metric.
How does that solve the problem? If a guardsmen squad does more PPW to space marines, and space marines suffer WPM how is that a 'good' metric. You can't just ignore an entire squad of guardsmen that is lunacy, especially for space marines. Read the article and at least understand that stand point.
You know what has excellent durability for it's points? A Rhino. Guardsmen are 4 points per wound for 10 T3, 5+ wounds. A Rhino is 7 ppw for 10 T7 3+ wounds. Put your Space Marines in a Rhino. Or behind a Rhino. Or use the Rhino to charge the Guardsmen while your Space Marines shoot the tank with their Plasmagun/whatever. But in response to "You can't just ignore an entire squad of guardsmen that is lunacy" the Guardsmen aren't armed with a Plasma Gun(and they frequently aren't) It might be perfectly acceptable to ignore their potential return fire anyways, given that it takes 18ish Lasgun shots to kill a single Space Marine out of cover.
You can do all the math in the world to try and illustrate the issue, but there are a number of other units available to you, and as long as there is some answer to the issue among the 90 units in the Space Marine book, you're doing ok.
Also, given the full read of the long post, the entire first half of it is about Space Marines lack of offensive capability per point. Why the focus on defense when you can fix offense instead?
Asherian Command wrote: Space marines also need to deal more damage, just adding a wound won't fix space marines fundemental flaw of not dealing enough damage.
Sure. The Primaris marines already have better bolters, though they're still not doing enough damage.
I read that my original post to your statement is spot on.
"a single plasma gun rapid firing into a squad of guardsmen will do much more damage to a squad of space marines."
Don't waste your time firing plasma at Guardsmen. Shoot at something that will give a better return on points, if that's your metric.
How does that solve the problem? If a guardsmen squad does more PPW to space marines, and space marines suffer WPM how is that a 'good' metric. You can't just ignore an entire squad of guardsmen that is lunacy, especially for space marines. Read the article and at least understand that stand point.
You know what has excellent durability for it's points? A Rhino. Guardsmen are 4 points per wound for 10 T3, 5+ wounds. A Rhino is 7 ppw for 10 T7 3+ wounds. Put your Space Marines in a Rhino. Or behind a Rhino. Or use the Rhino to charge the Guardsmen while your Space Marines shoot the tank with their Plasmagun/whatever. But in response to "You can't just ignore an entire squad of guardsmen that is lunacy" the Guardsmen aren't armed with a Plasma Gun(and they frequently aren't) It might be perfectly acceptable to ignore their potential return fire anyways, given that it takes 18ish Lasgun shots to kill a single Space Marine out of cover.
You can do all the math in the world to try and illustrate the issue, but there are a number of other units available to you, and as long as there is some answer to the issue among the 90 units in the Space Marine book, you're doing ok.
Also, given the full read of the long post, the entire first half of it is about Space Marines lack of offensive capability per point. Why the focus on defense when you can fix offense instead?
Asherian Command wrote: Space marines also need to deal more damage, just adding a wound won't fix space marines fundemental flaw of not dealing enough damage.
Sure. The Primaris marines already have better bolters, though they're still not doing enough damage.
So just give bolters their -1 ap again.... Like they used to have for all 7 editions
The fact heavy bolters don't have their -2 ap is mind-bogglingly stupid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 20:51:44
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Would it help at all if Bolters gained +1 to wound against Infantry models?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
I like to think of tabletop mechanics as the following - if you need rerolls it means that the thing you're re-rolling is fundamentally broken. They aren't good game design but a band-aid slapped on to make things passably work. Like commander auras or special abilities, dice should be dice and their results should not be reset. I concur that just upgrading them all to a 2W statline would both be better and saner. And if 2w doesn't do enough or the scale creeps forward again, jack up their toughness because for the love of god the toughness and strength limit is GONE. No reason why we can't have toughness 16 tanks and such.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Also, given the full read of the long post, the entire first half of it is about Space Marines lack of offensive capability per point. Why the focus on defense when you can fix offense instead?
Thats what i've been talking about
Well, you've also been talking about durability:
Asherian Command wrote: "2W would help but so would a reroll, The reroll adds more durability but slows down the game.
Possibly just giving all marines on base a 6+ Invulnerable save would probably help."
vipoid wrote: Would it help at all if Bolters gained +1 to wound against Infantry models?
Yes, but again, we're talking about the most basic weapons in the game. Special rules should be avoided, just adjust the profile.
Give all normal bolters the bolt carbine rules (Assault 2, R24) (they look the same anyway.)
Normal bolt rifle can stay as it.
Give auto bolt rifles the current stormbolter rules (they should have different rules than bolt carbines and need to be better than they're now)
Stalker bolt rifles get the sniper rule.
Stormbolters can become assault 4, range 18, or something, I'm not sure about that.
(Just spitballing here, I've not done rigorous analysis of effects of this.)
Proliferation of AP -1 should be avoided, it ultimately hurts marines the most.
Here read this
60PL 
12PL 
