Switch Theme:

The Power Armor Problem  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Formosa wrote:
Bolter: rapid fire 2 18” ap-1 on a 6+ to wound damage 2

Storm Bolter: rapid fire 3 18” on a 6+ to wound damage 2

Primaris Bolter: rapid fire 2 24” ap-2

Primaris sniper Bolter: heavy 1 30” ap-2 on a 6+ to wound damage 2 ap -3

Primaris assault Bolter: assault 4 12” on a 6+ to wound damage 2

Heavy Bolter: heavy 5 OR assault 3 36”/24” ap-1 on a 6+ to wound damage 2

Now marines are short range terror troops that WILL tear you to bits with massed bolt fire.

Yes, let's give marines two wounds to make them more durable, and then hand out D2 like candy!

   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Crimson wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Bolter: rapid fire 2 18” ap-1 on a 6+ to wound damage 2

Storm Bolter: rapid fire 3 18” on a 6+ to wound damage 2

Primaris Bolter: rapid fire 2 24” ap-2

Primaris sniper Bolter: heavy 1 30” ap-2 on a 6+ to wound damage 2 ap -3

Primaris assault Bolter: assault 4 12” on a 6+ to wound damage 2

Heavy Bolter: heavy 5 OR assault 3 36”/24” ap-1 on a 6+ to wound damage 2

Now marines are short range terror troops that WILL tear you to bits with massed bolt fire.

Yes, let's give marines two wounds to make them more durable, and then hand out D2 like candy!


6+ And expolding attacks as someone mentioned are a trap. They aren't as powerful. They have a chance to be powerful.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Marines need a reroll of saves or a way to mitigate the volume of attacks or shots that other infantry have. Or just be 2W 2A base at 13pts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 21:13:20


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






The best defense is a good offense

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 Marmatag wrote:
Marines need a reroll of saves or a way to mitigate the volume of attacks or shots that other infantry have. Or just be 2W 2A base at 13pts.


2W 2A works fine. My issue is adding any further amount to rolling dice in the game and purely sticking to modifiers, because the current system is ridiculous

-Roll to advance
-Roll in the psychic phase
-Roll to deny
-Roll to hit
-Re-roll a fair chunk of hits
-Roll to wound
-Re-roll a fair chunk of to-wounds
-Roll your saves

Tacking on re-rolls on top of that is going to really slow gak down, especially infantry combat where a fair amount of hits and wounds are going to succeed.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut





 Marmatag wrote:
Marines need a reroll of saves or a way to mitigate the volume of attacks or shots that other infantry have. Or just be 2W 2A base at 13pts.


There's nothing wrong with marines dying to weight of fire. Like I said before you want the game to be fun for both parties, not have your opponent eye roll as his well-worked-out plans are scuppered because marines can just shrug stuff off due to rules and stats that have feck all to do with player skill.

I think most people would rather have marines behave like the shock troops they are and delete things at short range. As it is they're pillow-fisted assault troops toting around cap guns.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

There is something wrong with them dying to weight of fire when the weight is so easily attainable.

Orks with 5 attacks per model with exploding 6s and baked in rerolls?

Guardsmen with 3 attacks per model? 4 shots per gun in rapid fire? Dirt cheap mortar spam, wyverns, etc?

Fire Warriors with 30" rapid fire guns wounding on 3s?

Weight of dice is a joke in this game right now.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/13 21:40:37


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Banville wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Marines need a reroll of saves or a way to mitigate the volume of attacks or shots that other infantry have. Or just be 2W 2A base at 13pts.


There's nothing wrong with marines dying to weight of fire. Like I said before you want the game to be fun for both parties, not have your opponent eye roll as his well-worked-out plans are scuppered because marines can just shrug stuff off due to rules and stats that have feck all to do with player skill.

I think most people would rather have marines behave like the shock troops they are and delete things at short range. As it is they're pillow-fisted assault troops toting around cap guns.


Right. In the following scenario, which would you rather improve:

10 man Guard Infantry vs. 5 Marines. (simultaneously for illustration)
Infantry rapid fire at the marines, killing 1. Marines rapid fire at Guard killing 3.

What would you prefer for the game? No Marines dying? Or more Guard dying? I am firmly on the more Guard dying side.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






I think marine resilience should be such that they lose less points than guardsmen against small arms. That should be the point of the power armour. It is obviously fine for them to lose more points against dedicated anti-elite weapons, such as plasma. Intercessors actually achieve this.

   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 Crimson wrote:
I think marine resilience should be such that they lose less points than guardsmen against small arms. That should be the point of the power armour. It is obviously fine for them to lose more points against dedicated anti-elite weapons, such as plasma. Intercessors actually achieve this.


And the you remember that guardsmen for 5 points can have BS3+, making this equation really turn into a gak sandwich.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Crimson wrote:
I think marine resilience should be such that they lose less points than guardsmen against small arms. That should be the point of the power armour. It is obviously fine for them to lose more points against dedicated anti-elite weapons, such as plasma. Intercessors actually achieve this.

But would you prefer that over doing more damage?

Because for me, I'd prefer Marines to strike harder in order to clear battlespace more effectively. More resiliency moves them more towards a gunline, imo.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Insectum7 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
I think marine resilience should be such that they lose less points than guardsmen against small arms. That should be the point of the power armour. It is obviously fine for them to lose more points against dedicated anti-elite weapons, such as plasma. Intercessors actually achieve this.

But would you prefer that over doing more damage?

Because for me, I'd prefer Marines to strike harder in order to clear battlespace more effectively. More resiliency moves them more towards a gunline, imo.

They really need both. Big power armour blokes can't be just glass cannons, that's the job for the space elves.

   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
I think marine resilience should be such that they lose less points than guardsmen against small arms. That should be the point of the power armour. It is obviously fine for them to lose more points against dedicated anti-elite weapons, such as plasma. Intercessors actually achieve this.

But would you prefer that over doing more damage?

Because for me, I'd prefer Marines to strike harder in order to clear battlespace more effectively. More resiliency moves them more towards a gunline, imo.


I think giving them a +1 attack on charge would also give them an edge in close combat. And then reworking their bolters to be ap - 1 and to have rapid fire 2 on normal bolters. Could be a way to increase their killing potential while also preventing horde armies from overwhelming them as they are currently.

Then we get rid of all the useless units in the codex to cut down on space and bam space marines are viable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 22:00:47


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Between Alpha and Omega, and a little to the left

 Asherian Command wrote:
 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I remember the extensive threads about how the AP system in 3-7 edition hurt power armor the most, now we're hearing the same about armor modifiers (even by the same people) Same with sweeping advance, or grenades, or cover, or pistols, or a hundred other things.

SM players have absolutely shown an unwillingness to use any advantage they have, and deny any winning strategy as "not counting", because they'd rather be able to win tournaments with the any they got straight out of Assault on Black Reach. And when they lose, rather than change, they just start crying to GW for a shower of buffs.



I think players have taken into account that marines are not cost effective. Even at the local hobby scene, people struggle to justify playing marines over the stronger races. Its also just they underperform at every event?

Blaming players for being salty or 'being too stubborn' is a rash over generalization.

If anything marines just need better weapons, better rules, and rules that actually matter. Making Marines 'the baseline' has been a mistake for years.

With the advent of knights all infantry balance is thrown out the window as it is now "How do we beat knights?" Instead of "How do we deal with MEQ?"

The point of a generalist unit is that you're sacrificing raw efficency for flexibility, one to one stat comparisons is evitibly going to make you look bad. Maybe more people should look at points cost as abslolute rather than relative move often. bring worse at shoot vs a unit doesn't mean you should not pay for your melee, melee, or special rules. And for an army that's so terrible, they seem to keep sneaking into top spots in tournaments.

I wouldn't call it a rash over-generalization. This is an observation made over four editions and several people. I get they're not all like that but the ones who busy themselves with topics like this certainly do.

.Making "How do we deal with MEQ?" the gate for list building is the problem. Even for a supposed horde meta people are still reaching for plasma and equivilent (Think about what disintigrators and reaper launchers are mean to deal with. It's not orks). SMs' popularity and ubiquity is their own downfall, coupled with warpped expectations.

Want to help support my plastic addiction? I sell stories about humans fighting to survive in a space age frontier.
Lord Harrab wrote:"Gimme back my leg-bone! *wack* Ow, don't hit me with it!" commonly uttered by Guardsman when in close combat with Orks.

Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts.  
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Crimson wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
I think marine resilience should be such that they lose less points than guardsmen against small arms. That should be the point of the power armour. It is obviously fine for them to lose more points against dedicated anti-elite weapons, such as plasma. Intercessors actually achieve this.

But would you prefer that over doing more damage?

Because for me, I'd prefer Marines to strike harder in order to clear battlespace more effectively. More resiliency moves them more towards a gunline, imo.

They really need both. Big power armour blokes can't be just glass cannons, that's the job for the space elves.

Way to dodge the question.

Howabout a percentage? You have a limited supply of balancing power, how do you spend it? 60% Offense, 40% defense? 80% defense, 20% offense, 20% ATSKNF upgrade?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I think they want 70% offense, 70% defense, and 30% utility.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Insectum7 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
I think marine resilience should be such that they lose less points than guardsmen against small arms. That should be the point of the power armour. It is obviously fine for them to lose more points against dedicated anti-elite weapons, such as plasma. Intercessors actually achieve this.

But would you prefer that over doing more damage?

Because for me, I'd prefer Marines to strike harder in order to clear battlespace more effectively. More resiliency moves them more towards a gunline, imo.

They really need both. Big power armour blokes can't be just glass cannons, that's the job for the space elves.

Way to dodge the question.

Howabout a percentage? You have a limited supply of balancing power, how do you spend it? 60% Offense, 40% defense? 80% defense, 20% offense, 20% ATSKNF upgrade?


I really can't think it in those terms. I think basic marines (Tacticals and Intercessors) don't need to have super effective damage for their points. Still, they should be able to match the guardsmen, which they currently can't. Their resilience compared to the guardsmen should be as I said earlier: weaker (per points) against anti-elite weapons such as plasma or hotshots, better against small arms such as lasguns and bolters.

   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I remember the extensive threads about how the AP system in 3-7 edition hurt power armor the most, now we're hearing the same about armor modifiers (even by the same people) Same with sweeping advance, or grenades, or cover, or pistols, or a hundred other things.

SM players have absolutely shown an unwillingness to use any advantage they have, and deny any winning strategy as "not counting", because they'd rather be able to win tournaments with the any they got straight out of Assault on Black Reach. And when they lose, rather than change, they just start crying to GW for a shower of buffs.



I think players have taken into account that marines are not cost effective. Even at the local hobby scene, people struggle to justify playing marines over the stronger races. Its also just they underperform at every event?

Blaming players for being salty or 'being too stubborn' is a rash over generalization.

If anything marines just need better weapons, better rules, and rules that actually matter. Making Marines 'the baseline' has been a mistake for years.

With the advent of knights all infantry balance is thrown out the window as it is now "How do we beat knights?" Instead of "How do we deal with MEQ?"

The point of a generalist unit is that you're sacrificing raw efficency for flexibility, one to one stat comparisons is evitibly going to make you look bad. Maybe more people should look at points cost as abslolute rather than relative move often. bring worse at shoot vs a unit doesn't mean you should not pay for your melee, melee, or special rules. And for an army that's so terrible, they seem to keep sneaking into top spots in tournaments.

I wouldn't call it a rash over-generalization. This is an observation made over four editions and several people. I get they're not all like that but the ones who busy themselves with topics like this certainly do.

.Making "How do we deal with MEQ?" the gate for list building is the problem. Even for a supposed horde meta people are still reaching for plasma and equivilent (Think about what disintigrators and reaper launchers are mean to deal with. It's not orks). SMs' popularity and ubiquity is their own downfall, coupled with warpped expectations.


You haven't read a single thing in this entire thread, have you? None of the discussions about WPPM, WPM, APPM, or anything. The problem here is that they are paying a premium cost for power armor saves. They have lackluster equipment that only they can use. and they are over-inflated in cost. A normal space marine is 13pts, it has over its counterparts only +1 toughness over all others, making them far less effective compared to their counterparts from other armies. if we do the math space marines will constantly underperform because of lackluster weaponry and damage. Grey Knights also have this issue as well for having force weapon costs baked into everything including their heavy support units that don't have force weapons. They also have massive issues with dealing with mass amounts of infantry and dumbed down rules that make all MEQ suffer. Removing +1 attack on the charge has completely destroyed space marines in fight phases as that was the major benefit marines always had was if they charged they were super effective for their points cost because they can lay down a lot of damage in close combat. Now marines do not have that option at all.

Saying "its an observation of several people." Is just what that is an observation, not something that is a general theme, we have people who can be wrong about the directions of marines, but that is the point of this discussion to come to clarity with how the community sees space marines, and most agree "They are in a tough spot." If we see in tournament lists that marines are never run in solo mono armies or do well by themselves (without other marine codexes) then that is not indictiative of what they truly do in terms of power or potential damage.

Saying they get to top spots in tournaments is a rarity, that happened once. And that army only abused systems and used every single marine list. We are talking mono lists here, not this imperial soup that has completely destroyed 8th edition and has made rampant every single problem. If a space marine cannot match up in damage potential to a guardsman or in Points value, then they are not worth taking. If a company vet is underperforming compared to a custode, then the custode is far more useful to the guard player. Every single imperial soup army utilizes guardsmen for Cheap CP generation for Knights, you won't see many imperial soup lists that don't abuse that and skip over space marines other than to run Bobby G.

People are packing plasma now not because of marines, but because of knights. Its high value strength and cost efficiency, not because "Oh space marines oh no!" Space marines don't even make it into consideration for list building, when I take three dark reaper squads its to kill those pesky Gallants and their support units. To force them to have an invulernable save. People are picking up plasma because its a cheap alternative to a lascannon or missile launcher. Not to mention that plasma / special weapons can be taken by veteran squads enmasse.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/13 22:19:28


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Crimson wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
I think marine resilience should be such that they lose less points than guardsmen against small arms. That should be the point of the power armour. It is obviously fine for them to lose more points against dedicated anti-elite weapons, such as plasma. Intercessors actually achieve this.

But would you prefer that over doing more damage?

Because for me, I'd prefer Marines to strike harder in order to clear battlespace more effectively. More resiliency moves them more towards a gunline, imo.

They really need both. Big power armour blokes can't be just glass cannons, that's the job for the space elves.

Way to dodge the question.

Howabout a percentage? You have a limited supply of balancing power, how do you spend it? 60% Offense, 40% defense? 80% defense, 20% offense, 20% ATSKNF upgrade?


I really can't think it in those terms. I think basic marines (Tacticals and Intercessors) don't need to have super effective damage for their points. Still, they should be able to match the guardsmen, which they currently can't. Their resilience compared to the guardsmen should be as I said earlier: weaker (per points) against anti-elite weapons such as plasma or hotshots, better against small arms such as lasguns and bolters.

Ok, fair enough. But to be "weaker (per points) against anti-elite weapons such as plasma or hotshots, better against small arms such as lasguns and bolters." I think that's basically Priamris with their 2W. It takes more Lasguns to take one down, but it's a better return ppw when Plasma, etc. is fired at them.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Rhinox Rider




 Crimson wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

But would you prefer that over doing more damage?

Because for me, I'd prefer Marines to strike harder in order to clear battlespace more effectively. More resiliency moves them more towards a gunline, imo.

They really need both. Big power armour blokes can't be just glass cannons, that's the job for the space elves.


We’ve had versions of tough marines for a long time, we had rubrics and plague marines and what happens to them is they drown, their shooting isn’t worth anything. Rubrics in 2002 were 2 wounds with normal rapid fire bolters, and they were very weak.

If marines are fighting 50 guardsmen, chances are not all the guardsmen have range to shoot them right away. If you have toughmarines with 2w, all that happens is that they kill a few guard on the first turn, weather the fire of 20 guard who are in range without losing more than one model, and then the rest of the platoon comes into range next turn and the marines eventually either lose by attrition, or more importantly they get stuck and can’t get to the objective. They need greater improvement in movement and firepower than they do in durability. I definitely can’t imagine marines having 2w without the boost in attack from having -1 ap, and like everyone has said, -1 ap shouldn’t be that common.
   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut





pelicaniforce wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

But would you prefer that over doing more damage?

Because for me, I'd prefer Marines to strike harder in order to clear battlespace more effectively. More resiliency moves them more towards a gunline, imo.

They really need both. Big power armour blokes can't be just glass cannons, that's the job for the space elves.


We’ve had versions of tough marines for a long time, we had rubrics and plague marines and what happens to them is they drown, their shooting isn’t worth anything. Rubrics in 2002 were 2 wounds with normal rapid fire bolters, and they were very weak.

If marines are fighting 50 guardsmen, chances are not all the guardsmen have range to shoot them right away. If you have toughmarines with 2w, all that happens is that they kill a few guard on the first turn, weather the fire of 20 guard who are in range without losing more than one model, and then the rest of the platoon comes into range next turn and the marines eventually either lose by attrition, or more importantly they get stuck and can’t get to the objective. They need greater improvement in movement and firepower than they do in durability. I definitely can’t imagine marines having 2w without the boost in attack from having -1 ap, and like everyone has said, -1 ap shouldn’t be that common.


Exactly. My hundred guard don't care that you have T5 and 2W. They're not going to try and wipe you out with lasguns. They'll just swamp you and win by attrition and stopping you claiming objectives. If a squad of ten marines could reliably kill ten guard at 12" range, then that changes things.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






^And when Bolters were AP 5, and Flamers used templates, ignored cover and also had AP 5, Guardsmen died plenty quick. Quick enough that you rarely saw them taken.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Insectum7 wrote:

Ok, fair enough. But to be "weaker (per points) against anti-elite weapons such as plasma or hotshots, better against small arms such as lasguns and bolters." I think that's basically Priamris with their 2W. It takes more Lasguns to take one down, but it's a better return ppw when Plasma, etc. is fired at them.

Yes! I said that. The Intercessors have the proper marine durability. This is why I think the Primaris statline should be the starting point to any attempted marine fix; it can actually work.

   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




 Insectum7 wrote:
^And when Bolters were AP 5, and Flamers used templates, ignored cover and also had AP 5, Guardsmen died plenty quick. Quick enough that you rarely saw them taken.

Let’s bring that back. Or some compromise between the slaughter of guardsmen and the current situation that you find reasonable for both factions.

I’m mostly open to the idea of morale doing something in this game.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





just reroll all saves of 1. Works with invul save to make those 5+ invul save that termie get a bit more tasty, make marine super good at surviving AP-0, but scale with AP nicely so that more AP is really dangerous.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

Bremon wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^And when Bolters were AP 5, and Flamers used templates, ignored cover and also had AP 5, Guardsmen died plenty quick. Quick enough that you rarely saw them taken.

Let’s bring that back. Or some compromise between the slaughter of guardsmen and the current situation that you find reasonable for both factions.

I’m mostly open to the idea of morale doing something in this game.


Morale being used for when you try to retreat? Instead of an auto "RETREAT!"

Make it so morale has to be taken after 25% of a units has been lost. Or 25% of your wounds are gone for single models. If they fail it causes a rout and will continue to retreat d6 to the nearest board edge until you recover their LD. Then force LD to be taken against certain 'terror' units that specifically designed for you to have to constantly take leadership checks on your units. Would make close combat terrifying and make gunline armies less prominent. Bring back terror grenades!

Space marines being given back their general ap - 1 for all bolter weapons Would make them one of the best armies on the table. Let primaris keep their ap - 1 and range 30. And they should be fine. essentially an upgrade for tactical squads.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/13 23:39:13


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Asherian Command wrote:

Space marines being given back their general ap - 1 for all bolter weapons Would make them one of the best armies on the table. Let primaris keep their ap - 1 and range 30. And they should be fine. essentially an upgrade for tactical squads.

Giving bolters AP -1 increases their ability to kill marines more than it increases their ability to kill guardsmen.

   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Marmatag wrote:
Here is how I would boost ADEPTUS ASTARTES.

Infantry, Walkers, Bikers, Cavalry all gain the following buffs:

1. Reroll failed armor saves. Invulnerable saves are not rerolled. This gives units an added layer of durability against smaller arms fire. It requires that people bring anti-armor guns to bear to deal with marines. Currently you don't need to, because anything that kills guardsmen is more efficient points wise at killing marines.

2. ATSKNF improved. Marine units can elect to auto-pass morale checks.

3. 10-man unit boosts. Marine units with 10 models can take an extra sergeant, as well as two extra special weapons. Currently there is no reason to bring more than 5 models, because you need sergeants and the special weapons scale linearly. So a 10 man unit has: 2 sergeants, 3 special weapons, 5 tac marines. Whereas 2 5x man units has 2 sergeants, 2 special weapons, and 6 tac marines. It's a slight improvement of scale, and also, with the improvement to ATSKNF they won't be wiped off of the table.

4. Primaris upgrade. Any unit can pay 4 points to get the primaris upgrade, for +1W, +1A base per model. So if you wanted to make jump-pack primaris assault marines you could. They would gain the PRIMARIS keyword which would restrict their transport options. This could also be a pre-battle stratagem costing 1CP which could target a unit.

5. Deadly Accuracy. Hit rolls of 6 add an extra AP to the weapon. So hit rolls of 6 in shooting or melee with a boltgun or a chainsword would be resolved at -1 instead of AP0. Marines would be better at clearing other light infantry.


So, you're willing to add 1, 2, 3, and 5 to inquisitors, both types of sisters, and custodes then?
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 Mmmpi wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Here is how I would boost ADEPTUS ASTARTES.

Infantry, Walkers, Bikers, Cavalry all gain the following buffs:

1. Reroll failed armor saves. Invulnerable saves are not rerolled. This gives units an added layer of durability against smaller arms fire. It requires that people bring anti-armor guns to bear to deal with marines. Currently you don't need to, because anything that kills guardsmen is more efficient points wise at killing marines.

2. ATSKNF improved. Marine units can elect to auto-pass morale checks.

3. 10-man unit boosts. Marine units with 10 models can take an extra sergeant, as well as two extra special weapons. Currently there is no reason to bring more than 5 models, because you need sergeants and the special weapons scale linearly. So a 10 man unit has: 2 sergeants, 3 special weapons, 5 tac marines. Whereas 2 5x man units has 2 sergeants, 2 special weapons, and 6 tac marines. It's a slight improvement of scale, and also, with the improvement to ATSKNF they won't be wiped off of the table.

4. Primaris upgrade. Any unit can pay 4 points to get the primaris upgrade, for +1W, +1A base per model. So if you wanted to make jump-pack primaris assault marines you could. They would gain the PRIMARIS keyword which would restrict their transport options. This could also be a pre-battle stratagem costing 1CP which could target a unit.

5. Deadly Accuracy. Hit rolls of 6 add an extra AP to the weapon. So hit rolls of 6 in shooting or melee with a boltgun or a chainsword would be resolved at -1 instead of AP0. Marines would be better at clearing other light infantry.


So, you're willing to add 1, 2, 3, and 5 to inquisitors, both types of sisters, and custodes then?


Are they ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword? Can you read?

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Blndmage wrote:
If people are worried about durability, why not have a reroll on any successful roll to wound any ASTARTIES INFANTRY.

It'd be an ASTARTIES only thing.


Because, as has been discussed for most of a page in this thread already, it isn't a good idea for a number of reasons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
 Asherian Command wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
If people are worried about durability, why not have a reroll on any successful roll to wound any ASTARTIES INFANTRY.

It'd be an ASTARTIES only thing.


Rerolls slow down the game as is.

I think the best thing for marines is the ability to ignore all weapons with a strength less than the marines toughness lowers that ap - by 1.

So

Iron within Iron Without (something along those lines)

Due to having superior toughness than most beings and near inhuman ability to recover from almost any wound. Space Marines may ignore 1 ap from any ranged weapon or close combat weapon if the opposing unit or weapon has less total strength than the toughness of the space marine.

It would make bikes very powerful, aggressors incredibly durable, and all space marine tanks ungodly powerful. This would have to be fine tuned but marines are already expensive removing combat squads for that ability would make them the most durable units in the game. Especially their vechiles and dreadnoughts.


This is how you get people to refuse to play against marines.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/14 00:29:57


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: