Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Absolutely. AM are by far the most powerful stand alone army. And they are since day one of 8th edition, since index times. Crafworld are definitely a top tier army but AM is insane.
Also their imperium soup is more powerful than the elves' one at the moment as the castellan combo is the most broken thing in 40k.
I disagree, pure DEIMO is a stronger stand alone army, RWJF, Ravagers back by meat mountains, easy and cheap Haywire, etc...
I'd agree with dark eldar being the best mono faction, lots of good stuff with very few weaknesses, except psykers obviously but power from pain gets them nice buffs anyway.
No, I think they are the best anti tournament meta army not the best stand alone army overall. I consider orks superior to pure DE in any possible way if they face each other using their best lists.
Stand alone DE are amazing only in metas where knights reign and everyone brings 25 lascannons and 25 plasma to deal with them. But those metas are affected by the soup since pure knights aren't that powerful, and if soup was banned they'd completely change.
Blackie wrote: No, I think they are the best anti tournament meta army not the best stand alone army overall. I consider orks superior to pure DE in any possible way if they face each other using their best lists.
Stand alone DE are amazing only in metas where knights reign and everyone brings 25 lascannons and 25 plasma to deal with them. But those metas are affected by the soup since pure knights aren't that powerful, and if soup was banned they'd completely change.
Meat Mountain deals with Orks tho.... 20 T6, 4++/6+++ 4 wound models can deal with 120 orks.
Daedalus81 wrote: A squad of 10 tacs is 130.
A squad of 5 tacs and a rhino with 2 SB is 139.
A squad of 5 tacs and a razor with THB and SB is 154.
Let's say you expect to lose half your marines getting them into a good spot. Why *wouldn't* you just drop that half, pay 9 points more, and get a 12" move, 10 T7 wounds instead of 5 T4, and one less bolter equivalent? Or hell, a razorback with a twin heavy bolter and storm bolter for only 24 points more?
I think its because the Rhino doesn't really do anything - and while its cheap wounds so inefficient to kill, its not exactly hard to do so.
You also have the issue that models in transports die (a single tac isn't exactly an issue, but it can add up if you are unlucky) and they can also explode scattering mortal wounds everywhere.
I mean lets say you took 3 squads of tacs in a rhino. That's over 400 points. Throw in some special weapons on those tacs and we could be at 500.
And... turn 1 they are not doing anything. Drive up pop smoke and hope not to die.
Turn 2... still not really obvious what they are doing. If still alive rhinos can move up, fire their stormbolters and charge some stuff - but really I'm not convinced orks or anyone else are overly troubled by this. Most "good" assault units have a reasonable chance of killing a rhino in a single turn - and are usually looking for a turn 1 charge all across the table, or deepstriking/teleporting anyway. MSU screens will just withdraw in exchange for a relatively token loss of firepower. While a rhino in itself isn't much, if you lose 3-4-5 in a turn that's a large chunk of your army.
You are right that 2SBs=4 bolters, but bolters are awful. 70 or so points to kill 2 guardsmen or fire warriors? Even buffed up this is a long way from good.
Razorbacks have a bit more shooting in exchange for a bit more points, but its a similar issue. Razorbacks are arguably better than tactical marines in themselves (although still vulnerable to heavy weapons) - but they don't justify taking tactical marines when you could take anything to unlock them.
Its kind of marines all over. Having poor damage output while not being especially tough or especially fast equals a poor unit.
Blackie wrote: No, I think they are the best anti tournament meta army not the best stand alone army overall. I consider orks superior to pure DE in any possible way if they face each other using their best lists.
Stand alone DE are amazing only in metas where knights reign and everyone brings 25 lascannons and 25 plasma to deal with them. But those metas are affected by the soup since pure knights aren't that powerful, and if soup was banned they'd completely change.
Meat Mountain deals with Orks tho.... 20 T6, 4++/6+++ 4 wound models can deal with 120 orks.
What's Meat Mountain?
Not only that 120 dudes, imagine the loota bomb with its average of 54 HITS per turn. Also traktor kannons and smasha gunz are ideal weapons against drukhari.
Blackie wrote: No, I think they are the best anti tournament meta army not the best stand alone army overall. I consider orks superior to pure DE in any possible way if they face each other using their best lists.
Stand alone DE are amazing only in metas where knights reign and everyone brings 25 lascannons and 25 plasma to deal with them. But those metas are affected by the soup since pure knights aren't that powerful, and if soup was banned they'd completely change.
Meat Mountain deals with Orks tho.... 20 T6, 4++/6+++ 4 wound models can deal with 120 orks.
What's Meat Mountain?
Not only that 120 dudes, imagine the loota bomb with its average of 54 HITS per turn. Also traktor kannons and smasha gunz are ideal weapons against drukhari.
Meat mountain is Coven with loads of Grotesques, haems and Urien, Grots T6, 4 wounds, 4++, 6+++, 5 attacks, S6 -1ap, Wracks, T5, 4++/6+++ 3 attacks wounds on 4+ The Lootas will be dealth with via Ravagers and RWJF
Meat mountain is Coven with loads of Grotesques, haems and Urien, Grots T6, 4 wounds, 4++, 6+++, 5 attacks, S6 -1ap, Wracks, T5, 4++/6+++ 3 attacks wounds on 4+ The Lootas will be dealth with via Ravagers and RWJF
Yeah, I've done several playtesing about Drukhari (similar to Meat mountain but with raiders and talos instead of wracks, 2 flyers and 10 grots) vs green tide orks with 25 lootas and 18 CPs, always win with my orks. Wracks can be completely ignored as they're slow and even if they manage to assault they'll do nothing special. 120 boyz can deal with 20 grotesques and lootas can melt 3+ vehicles in a single turn of shooting. 30-60 boyz can deep strike and charge with 72% odds in favor. An ork warboss with proper trait and free relic can 1-shot a knight in combat for only 99 points, he'll do his contribute in assisting the boyz in melee.
If orks go first Agents of vect will be used to avoid double shooting, and it would be absolutely needed in second turn to prevent Grot Shields. It's already 8 CPs just to deal with the lootas, without preventing all their damage output.
If drukhari go first they can kill just the 10 lootas that are visible by using agents of vect, next turn those remaining 15 can have their retaliation and you'd need another agents of vect only to prevent them firing twice. In both cases you'd be out of CPs after two uses of Agents of vect.
Fielding those 20 grots is also quite unusual, only a few dudes actually own the models while this type of orks list is the flavour of the month for the ork players and is already showing up in all the competitive metas. After trying it I've shifted to another style of playing because I found that kinda boring, but it can be meta breaking. Against drukhari (without knowing the list) I'd go with 3x T8 vehicles, deep strikers and mek gunz heavy spam which is another competitive built for orks, less anti meta oriented though as there would be more appropriate targets for the anti tank.
An AM proper gunline should deal very well against drukhari too, it definitely has more firepower due to a huge amount of insanely cheap but effective units. Craftworld are also not inferior.
Daedalus81 wrote: A squad of 10 tacs is 130.
A squad of 5 tacs and a rhino with 2 SB is 139.
A squad of 5 tacs and a razor with THB and SB is 154.
Let's say you expect to lose half your marines getting them into a good spot. Why *wouldn't* you just drop that half, pay 9 points more, and get a 12" move, 10 T7 wounds instead of 5 T4, and one less bolter equivalent? Or hell, a razorback with a twin heavy bolter and storm bolter for only 24 points more?
I think its because the Rhino doesn't really do anything - and while its cheap wounds so inefficient to kill, its not exactly hard to do so.
You also have the issue that models in transports die (a single tac isn't exactly an issue, but it can add up if you are unlucky) and they can also explode scattering mortal wounds everywhere.
Its kind of marines all over. Having poor damage output while not being especially tough or especially fast equals a poor unit.
I want to use my marines and my approach currently is basically to have rhinos for them or not play them at all. Having a rhino for them really increases their durability, like discussed earlier in this topic, everything that is good or ok at killing cheap T3 wounds usually is point-by-point more efficient at killing marines, so it makes no sense to have the marines out in the open they are slow and pretty easy to kill if you apply loads of dice.
One solution for buffing basic marines could be to increase base melee attacks to 2, and make special marine bolter or something that is rapid-fire 2, while simultaneously dropping price of Rhino some 5-10 points. Ooops, my basic marine suggestion is basically CSM Chosen with Combi-bolter!
I would like to suggest every marine gets BS 2+ and WS 2+ but this could have some negative effects if extended to every MEQ. However the bottom line should be to increase damage output of basic marines (+1 A, BS into 2+ etc.) while providing better defense to them. Marine units sitting in cover can already become quite durable so they are fine, however marines are very immobile so slight point decrease to rhino (or altenatively give rhino T8 + 1 or 2 extra wounds) would also increase their relative durability. Also I really would like to see destroyed Rhinos stay on field to allow marines hide behind them, but this would allow some cheesy tactics I'm afraid.
Also not being able to charge after disembarking from Rhino is really punishing for the marines, especially because they need the Rhinos and they don't even have that good melee power. But then we are reminded that there are Khorne Berserkers who can fight 2-3 times and get extra attack after for Fight Phase if they are WE so end result is atleast for CSM the Rhino cannot be allowed to be too cheap or to allow charging after disembarking because Khorne Berserkers exist.
EDIT: Grammar correction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 13:35:57
Daedalus81 wrote: A squad of 10 tacs is 130.
A squad of 5 tacs and a rhino with 2 SB is 139.
A squad of 5 tacs and a razor with THB and SB is 154.
Let's say you expect to lose half your marines getting them into a good spot. Why *wouldn't* you just drop that half, pay 9 points more, and get a 12" move, 10 T7 wounds instead of 5 T4, and one less bolter equivalent? Or hell, a razorback with a twin heavy bolter and storm bolter for only 24 points more?
I think its because the Rhino doesn't really do anything - and while its cheap wounds so inefficient to kill, its not exactly hard to do so.
You also have the issue that models in transports die (a single tac isn't exactly an issue, but it can add up if you are unlucky) and they can also explode scattering mortal wounds everywhere.
I mean lets say you took 3 squads of tacs in a rhino. That's over 400 points. Throw in some special weapons on those tacs and we could be at 500.
And... turn 1 they are not doing anything. Drive up pop smoke and hope not to die.
Turn 2... still not really obvious what they are doing. If still alive rhinos can move up, fire their stormbolters and charge some stuff - but really I'm not convinced orks or anyone else are overly troubled by this. Most "good" assault units have a reasonable chance of killing a rhino in a single turn - and are usually looking for a turn 1 charge all across the table, or deepstriking/teleporting anyway. MSU screens will just withdraw in exchange for a relatively token loss of firepower. While a rhino in itself isn't much, if you lose 3-4-5 in a turn that's a large chunk of your army.
You are right that 2SBs=4 bolters, but bolters are awful. 70 or so points to kill 2 guardsmen or fire warriors? Even buffed up this is a long way from good.
Razorbacks have a bit more shooting in exchange for a bit more points, but its a similar issue. Razorbacks are arguably better than tactical marines in themselves (although still vulnerable to heavy weapons) - but they don't justify taking tactical marines when you could take anything to unlock them.
Its kind of marines all over. Having poor damage output while not being especially tough or especially fast equals a poor unit.
You laid out a general strategy that doesn't conform to the opponent you're facing of the tactics you have in mind.
Rhinos:
- Allow a melee army to create target saturation and soak overwatch
- Give a ranged army blockers to prevent movement and occupy melee elements
- Put pressure on a ranged opponent
- Make your marines more effective by getting them into range sooner
Calling it out for being 70 points and only being able to kill a couple guardsmen is the wrong way to look at it. Units have value beyond points efficiency.
In a theoretical army like this - what do you shoot? The healing, hard to hit, and fast spawn or the rhinos with Chosen who will drop 24 S4 attacks rerolling hits and wounds in combat?
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 14:01:30
Meat mountain is Coven with loads of Grotesques, haems and Urien, Grots T6, 4 wounds, 4++, 6+++, 5 attacks, S6 -1ap, Wracks, T5, 4++/6+++ 3 attacks wounds on 4+ The Lootas will be dealth with via Ravagers and RWJF
Yeah, I've done several playtesing about Drukhari (similar to Meat mountain but with raiders and talos instead of wracks, 2 flyers and 10 grots) vs green tide orks with 25 lootas and 18 CPs, always win with my orks. Wracks can be completely ignored as they're slow and even if they manage to assault they'll do nothing special. 120 boyz can deal with 20 grotesques and lootas can melt 3+ vehicles in a single turn of shooting. 30-60 boyz can deep strike and charge with 72% odds in favor. An ork warboss with proper trait and free relic can 1-shot a knight in combat for only 99 points, he'll do his contribute in assisting the boyz in melee.
If orks go first Agents of vect will be used to avoid double shooting, and it would be absolutely needed in second turn to prevent Grot Shields. It's already 8 CPs just to deal with the lootas, without preventing all their damage output.
If drukhari go first they can kill just the 10 lootas that are visible by using agents of vect, next turn those remaining 15 can have their retaliation and you'd need another agents of vect only to prevent them firing twice. In both cases you'd be out of CPs after two uses of Agents of vect.
Fielding those 20 grots is also quite unusual, only a few dudes actually own the models while this type of orks list is the flavour of the month for the ork players and is already showing up in all the competitive metas. After trying it I've shifted to another style of playing because I found that kinda boring, but it can be meta breaking. Against drukhari (without knowing the list) I'd go with 3x T8 vehicles, deep strikers and mek gunz heavy spam which is another competitive built for orks, less anti meta oriented though as there would be more appropriate targets for the anti tank.
An AM proper gunline should deal very well against drukhari too, it definitely has more firepower due to a huge amount of insanely cheap but effective units. Craftworld are also not inferior.
I know many that have 20 due to 7th formation with them and how easy they are to convert.
Ogre Army from AoS has a box of 6 for the price of 2, if you own 3 Talos you have enough to bits convert 10 of them. I bought 3 boxes of 6 (so i actually have 18, but i know many with 20+)
So far; Gman gunline, Tau castle, IG tank spam and Admech gunline has not been a problem, tho i have not fought CWE or Ynnari soup yet at all and the 2 Ork players like more friendly games so i tone it down.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm going to have to challenge rhino nay-sayers a bit more, I suppose.
A squad of 10 tacs is 130.
A squad of 5 tacs and a rhino with 2 SB is 139.
A squad of 5 tacs and a razor with THB and SB is 154.
Let's say you expect to lose half your marines getting them into a good spot. Why *wouldn't* you just drop that half, pay 9 points more, and get a 12" move, 10 T7 wounds instead of 5 T4, and one less bolter equivalent? Or hell, a razorback with a twin heavy bolter and storm bolter for only 24 points more?
Last I knew there are few melee oriented armies that can fall back and shoot and fewer still that can flee a rhino and then charge. Orks certainly have no way to avoid being pinned by a rhino and losing a round or two of combat. Guardsmen are compartmentalized, so shooting (and charging) them (with rhinos) before they charge you makes them a whole lot weaker.
It seems people are reluctant for a few reasons: 1) rhinos are not troops and so do not help with battalions, 2) they think rhinos are too expensive, and 3) they want to transport "something worthwhile".
1) There is no helping this. It's a legitimate downside.
2) If rhinos went down 5 points you'd save 25 points for 5 of them in your list. Why does 25 points stop you?
3) Two parts here --
a) Spending a lot of points on a unit makes you want to have it outside the transport, anyway
b) Chosen and the like are decently priced now and you don't need a special weapon on every damn model.
It's because Rhinos are easily stopped from going anywhere and they don't even have firing ports like they used to. If they had firing ports I'd give them a second look. As is? There's other ways around mobility.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Cause marines are for new players and they need training wheels.
/sarcasm
Honestly, people on here are very defensive when it comes to marines vs guardsmen. If yo saw the discussions on this thread, it got heated even though we have actual math to prove that marines statistically lose to guardsmen in WPP and PPW.
People will look at data and think "That means nothing from my experiences!" Which is a common mentality among people? I've seen it here so many times it kind deflates everyone's arguments. I certainly got a bit peeved when someone said that. It became a waste of time as we know from even mathematics and from tournament listings... People don't bring marines in. Even in soup lists.
Marines are terrible and will continue to be terrible until they are overhauled. SAying they don't need one is living outside of the reality of the tournament scene. just because 1 character that is a space marine shows up at an ITC for 1 list does not mean "marines are great!"
While even from my own personal experiences I've not played a marine player in months. no one wants to play them, no one has fun playing them. Players will drop them not because they don't look cool but because they are so poorly optimized for this edition. Points Costs, and stats, in general, would help marines. Taking them as 'normal' line infantry only makes sense if you can take them in numbers. But you can't there is no point to take a full squad of marines because they are far too expensive to be considered valuable. You can take 1 additional combi weapon compared to a guardsmen squad but thats not why people run guardsmen, guardsmen are run for CHEAP CP and the bonuses they get from knights.
This edition is a mess due to the over prevelance of super heavies. Honestly just ban super heavies from tournaments and matched play and most complaints would disappiate but marines still suffer from fighting in close combat where they are undoubtedly the weakest apart from tau who are supposed to be bad...
Except that people are disagreeing with your math and the conclusions you draw from it.
No one is claiming marines are strong. People are showing that your conclusions are off and your fixes are problematic, barring a minor change in points.
The main reason you don't see them in tournaments is because they're .01% (number is for emphasis, not accuracy) less efficient then another army book in soup.
Your issue isn't with the powerlevel of marines vs IG. Your issue is that anything no matter how crappy, costs less and is a troop choice. Of course IG make a better suicide screen and CP battery. They're cheaper. But if IG were 5 points each and WS/BS 6+ people would still take them over marines for that role.
Ultimately your issue is CP generation, the effect of soup on highly tuned tournament lists, and the fact that you apparently want your tac squads to run dick first into an entire army and win.
Bharring wrote: This is what I find hilarious:
-IG were bad for several editions. 8E hit, now they're top tier. GG OPIG GAME IS BAD.
-DE were bad for several editions. 8E hit, they're still terrible. 8E codex hits, now they're OP. GG OP ELDAR GAME IS BAD.
-Marines were top tier at several points in 7E, and for a brief period of time in 8E. Now they're bad. GG OP ELDAR GAME IS BAD MARINES ALWAYS SUCK.
That's literally not what's going on. At all
It really is though.
As for 3rd ed eldar. As the 6th ed chaos book showed us, having one good spam list doesn't make a top tier codex. 3rd ed eldar was all star cannons all the time.
6th edition CSM was top tier in certain aspects. Huron/Ahriman infiltrating Plague Zombies, Heldrakes, Obliterators being...okayish, Daemon Princes with Relics, Juggerlords w/ Bikers or Spawn...
The issue is how utterly garbage the codex was written, which eventually brought it down. When you only get one Juggerlord and one Mace Prince and your opponent has like 6+ Wave Serpents, what're you gonna do?
As you say. Had some good builds, but weren't close to top tier.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm pretty sure a majority of Space Marine players would be perfectly fine with Primaris Marines replacing normal Marines rules-wise, the current problem is that the old models are left in a gakky rules-situation and Intercessors not having the options of normal Marines. Drop "normal" Marines, give Primaris comparable loadouts so people don't have to can their entire armies and call it a day.
The fact that everytime this is brought up it faces heavy resistance says otherwise.
Admittedly I have said "It won't be" because i haven't seen evidence of it. If anything regular marines will just be normal troops for space marine armies probably replacing scouts. (cause when was the last time they released a scout model?)
But that's still speculation with nothing behind it. Just a rumor mill that's churning between releases and over enthusiasm from people like Crimson.
You can keep telling yourself that, but the amount of times CSM appeared as even an allied detachment ALONE in 6th says otherwise.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
If an army can down a knight in a turn (most competitive lists) will kill 3-4 rhinos a turn easy.
Marines already struggle with offensive output as is, devoting 10-20% of your army in units that have next to no offensive output puts the death kiss on any sort of competitive army.
Marines struggle with being able to kill knights and hordes because of the terrible profiles of our weapons. The str 6-8, ap -2-3, d2-3 multi-shot, no movement penalty band is the ideal weapon in this edition. Overcharged plasma cannons but they suffer a lot vs any type of negative to hit mods (which there are tons), is found on very fragile platforms (1 wound marines), requires you to blow yourself up to use and needs significant support units.
It's either that or spamming mortal wounds which doesn't work anymore now that orcs are a real thing. You can't screen all of your sniper scouts and dev squads with enough bodies to help against green tide. Once you get into CqC you can't screen the linchpin character units that make this build work.
Marines have outdated weapon profiles (las cannons, too many heavy weapons, bolters, melta, grav) on units with outdated toughness (t4 3+) with no strats/powers to bring the army into 8th edition. It's a 7th edition army ported (poorly) into 8th. Primaris were designed for 7th and flounder in the heavy weapon saturated battle fields of 8th. All this makes sense, given that the first wave of codexes and primaris themselves were designed in the midst of 7th before anyone had any experience with 8th.
Give all marine infantry re-roll 1s to hit and wound (get rid of stupid auras). Plamsa only 1 mortal on a natural 1. Grav gives no invlun save. Melta 2d6 damage at half range. Las cannon alt fire mode. Primaris need a FNP (hell they have extra organs). Firing ports on rhinos. New strats. New psychic powers. Melee fast primaris. Re design chaplains. Drop pods as a strat.
Points drops are not where it's at. The power armor problem is rooted in the outdated design philosophy of the marine army. The rules of 8th push certain weapon profiles, invlun saves, hordes, mortal wounds and mobility. All things which marines lack or just pay too much for (maybe not so much the invlun saves now with 2 point storm shields...). Throw in the worst army strats (which could mitigate all of those weaknesses) and you have an army that struggles against armies which have units that can take advantage of 8th edition vs one that was designed for 7th.
Daedalus81 wrote: In a theoretical army like this - what do you shoot? The healing, hard to hit, and fast spawn or the rhinos with Chosen who will drop 24 S4 attacks rerolling hits and wounds in combat?
Spoiler:
Its an interesting list - but forgive my ignorance of chaos - I am not seeing any long range firepower, much that can deal with vehicles, or really pose much in the way of a threat in the first turn outside of a warp-timed unit of Spawn or the Prince.
If you go first I can therefore see it being interesting, as you would be approaching my lines for a combined turn 2 charge and yes - I have to make a choice on shooting the -1 to hit spawn, or the rhinos.
If I go first however I feel I have a good chance over two turns to kill the rhinos, spawn and put a lot of fire into the chosen. Leaving you with some characters and cultists to face pretty much my entire army. Third turn and there on I am therefore just mopping up.
Also not being able to charge after disembarking from Rhino is really punishing for the marines, especially because they need the Rhinos and they don't even have that good melee power. But then we are reminded that there are Khorne Berserkers who can fight 2-3 times and get extra attack after for Fight Phase if they are WE so end result is atleast for CSM the Rhino cannot be allowed to be too cheap or to allow charging after disembarking because Khorne Berserkers exist.
You can charge after disembarking. You just can't disembark after moving.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 17:36:41
Daedalus81 wrote: In a theoretical army like this - what do you shoot? The healing, hard to hit, and fast spawn or the rhinos with Chosen who will drop 24 S4 attacks rerolling hits and wounds in combat?
Spoiler:
Its an interesting list - but forgive my ignorance of chaos - I am not seeing any long range firepower, much that can deal with vehicles, or really pose much in the way of a threat in the first turn outside of a warp-timed unit of Spawn or the Prince.
If you go first I can therefore see it being interesting, as you would be approaching my lines for a combined turn 2 charge and yes - I have to make a choice on shooting the -1 to hit spawn, or the rhinos.
If I go first however I feel I have a good chance over two turns to kill the rhinos, spawn and put a lot of fire into the chosen. Leaving you with some characters and cultists to face pretty much my entire army. Third turn and there on I am therefore just mopping up.
It's a heavy melee army. There's room for fists and other elements - I'm just highlighting a dynamic.
Spawn are D6 S5 AP2 D2. Tzeentch lets you pick a mutation and reroll the number of attacks, so, 5 of them 4.5 S5 AP2 D2 with reroll wounds and +1 to hit results in a dead Predator.
There is also Abaddon (who with the Exalted can kill a Predator on his own) and the DP. And lastly, just swarming attacks with VotLW and reroll wounds.
I think you're vastly overestimating the chance of killing a Rhino. A Helverin does 2.7 wounds to a rhino under cover on turn 1 and 3 to a rhino with -1 to hit. You would need 3 to 4 Helverins per Rhino for the first two turns to kill all of them as described. Obviously more extreme anti-tank is helpful, but getting overkilled by a volcano cannon isn't super concerning. And then there are still spawn kicking around.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/19 21:07:51
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm pretty sure a majority of Space Marine players would be perfectly fine with Primaris Marines replacing normal Marines rules-wise, the current problem is that the old models are left in a gakky rules-situation and Intercessors not having the options of normal Marines. Drop "normal" Marines, give Primaris comparable loadouts so people don't have to can their entire armies and call it a day.
The fact that everytime this is brought up it faces heavy resistance says otherwise.
GW could have done two different things with Primaris that wouldn't have annoyed existing Marine players: release them as a stand-alone army, or do exactly what AlmightyWalrus suggested. Either would have cheesed off the xenos players ("Why does Imperium need yet another army to add to the soup?" vs "Why do marines get a new model range when [faction x] is still using models from [number] years ago?"), but at least Marine players wouldn't be stressing over whether their existing units would eventually be phased out.
I'm on the fence about which I would have preferred.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/20 01:21:56
Cause marines are for new players and they need training wheels.
/sarcasm
Honestly, people on here are very defensive when it comes to marines vs guardsmen. If yo saw the discussions on this thread, it got heated even though we have actual math to prove that marines statistically lose to guardsmen in WPP and PPW.
People will look at data and think "That means nothing from my experiences!" Which is a common mentality among people? I've seen it here so many times it kind deflates everyone's arguments. I certainly got a bit peeved when someone said that. It became a waste of time as we know from even mathematics and from tournament listings... People don't bring marines in. Even in soup lists.
Marines are terrible and will continue to be terrible until they are overhauled. SAying they don't need one is living outside of the reality of the tournament scene. just because 1 character that is a space marine shows up at an ITC for 1 list does not mean "marines are great!"
While even from my own personal experiences I've not played a marine player in months. no one wants to play them, no one has fun playing them. Players will drop them not because they don't look cool but because they are so poorly optimized for this edition. Points Costs, and stats, in general, would help marines. Taking them as 'normal' line infantry only makes sense if you can take them in numbers. But you can't there is no point to take a full squad of marines because they are far too expensive to be considered valuable. You can take 1 additional combi weapon compared to a guardsmen squad but thats not why people run guardsmen, guardsmen are run for CHEAP CP and the bonuses they get from knights.
This edition is a mess due to the over prevelance of super heavies. Honestly just ban super heavies from tournaments and matched play and most complaints would disappiate but marines still suffer from fighting in close combat where they are undoubtedly the weakest apart from tau who are supposed to be bad...
Except that people are disagreeing with your math and the conclusions you draw from it.
No one is claiming marines are strong. People are showing that your conclusions are off and your fixes are problematic, barring a minor change in points.
The main reason you don't see them in tournaments is because they're .01% (number is for emphasis, not accuracy) less efficient then another army book in soup.
Your issue isn't with the powerlevel of marines vs IG. Your issue is that anything no matter how crappy, costs less and is a troop choice. Of course IG make a better suicide screen and CP battery. They're cheaper. But if IG were 5 points each and WS/BS 6+ people would still take them over marines for that role.
Ultimately your issue is CP generation, the effect of soup on highly tuned tournament lists, and the fact that you apparently want your tac squads to run dick first into an entire army and win.
Bharring wrote: This is what I find hilarious:
-IG were bad for several editions. 8E hit, now they're top tier. GG OPIG GAME IS BAD.
-DE were bad for several editions. 8E hit, they're still terrible. 8E codex hits, now they're OP. GG OP ELDAR GAME IS BAD.
-Marines were top tier at several points in 7E, and for a brief period of time in 8E. Now they're bad. GG OP ELDAR GAME IS BAD MARINES ALWAYS SUCK.
That's literally not what's going on. At all
It really is though.
As for 3rd ed eldar. As the 6th ed chaos book showed us, having one good spam list doesn't make a top tier codex. 3rd ed eldar was all star cannons all the time.
6th edition CSM was top tier in certain aspects. Huron/Ahriman infiltrating Plague Zombies, Heldrakes, Obliterators being...okayish, Daemon Princes with Relics, Juggerlords w/ Bikers or Spawn...
The issue is how utterly garbage the codex was written, which eventually brought it down. When you only get one Juggerlord and one Mace Prince and your opponent has like 6+ Wave Serpents, what're you gonna do?
As you say. Had some good builds, but weren't close to top tier.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm pretty sure a majority of Space Marine players would be perfectly fine with Primaris Marines replacing normal Marines rules-wise, the current problem is that the old models are left in a gakky rules-situation and Intercessors not having the options of normal Marines. Drop "normal" Marines, give Primaris comparable loadouts so people don't have to can their entire armies and call it a day.
The fact that everytime this is brought up it faces heavy resistance says otherwise.
Admittedly I have said "It won't be" because i haven't seen evidence of it. If anything regular marines will just be normal troops for space marine armies probably replacing scouts. (cause when was the last time they released a scout model?)
But that's still speculation with nothing behind it. Just a rumor mill that's churning between releases and over enthusiasm from people like Crimson.
You can keep telling yourself that, but the amount of times CSM appeared as even an allied detachment ALONE in 6th says otherwise.
Wait, are you saying everyone took them as an ally, or no one did? I don't remember reading about, or seeing large numbers of Chaos marines in 6th. Please clarify your post?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm pretty sure a majority of Space Marine players would be perfectly fine with Primaris Marines replacing normal Marines rules-wise, the current problem is that the old models are left in a gakky rules-situation and Intercessors not having the options of normal Marines. Drop "normal" Marines, give Primaris comparable loadouts so people don't have to can their entire armies and call it a day.
The fact that everytime this is brought up it faces heavy resistance says otherwise.
GW could have done two different things with Primaris that wouldn't have annoyed existing Marine players: release them as a stand-alone army, or do exactly what AlmightyWalrus suggested. Either would have cheesed off the xenos players ("Why does Imperium need yet another army to add to the soup?" vs "Why do marines get a new model range when [faction x] is still using models from [number] years ago?"), but at least Marine players wouldn't be stressing over whether their existing units would eventually be phased out.
I'm on the fence about which I would have preferred.
And what would you say to the space marine players that hate both options?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/20 14:09:06
Cause marines are for new players and they need training wheels.
/sarcasm
Honestly, people on here are very defensive when it comes to marines vs guardsmen. If yo saw the discussions on this thread, it got heated even though we have actual math to prove that marines statistically lose to guardsmen in WPP and PPW.
People will look at data and think "That means nothing from my experiences!" Which is a common mentality among people? I've seen it here so many times it kind deflates everyone's arguments. I certainly got a bit peeved when someone said that. It became a waste of time as we know from even mathematics and from tournament listings... People don't bring marines in. Even in soup lists.
Marines are terrible and will continue to be terrible until they are overhauled. SAying they don't need one is living outside of the reality of the tournament scene. just because 1 character that is a space marine shows up at an ITC for 1 list does not mean "marines are great!"
While even from my own personal experiences I've not played a marine player in months. no one wants to play them, no one has fun playing them. Players will drop them not because they don't look cool but because they are so poorly optimized for this edition. Points Costs, and stats, in general, would help marines. Taking them as 'normal' line infantry only makes sense if you can take them in numbers. But you can't there is no point to take a full squad of marines because they are far too expensive to be considered valuable. You can take 1 additional combi weapon compared to a guardsmen squad but thats not why people run guardsmen, guardsmen are run for CHEAP CP and the bonuses they get from knights.
This edition is a mess due to the over prevelance of super heavies. Honestly just ban super heavies from tournaments and matched play and most complaints would disappiate but marines still suffer from fighting in close combat where they are undoubtedly the weakest apart from tau who are supposed to be bad...
Except that people are disagreeing with your math and the conclusions you draw from it.
No one is claiming marines are strong. People are showing that your conclusions are off and your fixes are problematic, barring a minor change in points.
The main reason you don't see them in tournaments is because they're .01% (number is for emphasis, not accuracy) less efficient then another army book in soup.
Your issue isn't with the powerlevel of marines vs IG. Your issue is that anything no matter how crappy, costs less and is a troop choice. Of course IG make a better suicide screen and CP battery. They're cheaper. But if IG were 5 points each and WS/BS 6+ people would still take them over marines for that role.
Ultimately your issue is CP generation, the effect of soup on highly tuned tournament lists, and the fact that you apparently want your tac squads to run dick first into an entire army and win.
Bharring wrote: This is what I find hilarious:
-IG were bad for several editions. 8E hit, now they're top tier. GG OPIG GAME IS BAD.
-DE were bad for several editions. 8E hit, they're still terrible. 8E codex hits, now they're OP. GG OP ELDAR GAME IS BAD.
-Marines were top tier at several points in 7E, and for a brief period of time in 8E. Now they're bad. GG OP ELDAR GAME IS BAD MARINES ALWAYS SUCK.
That's literally not what's going on. At all
It really is though.
As for 3rd ed eldar. As the 6th ed chaos book showed us, having one good spam list doesn't make a top tier codex. 3rd ed eldar was all star cannons all the time.
6th edition CSM was top tier in certain aspects. Huron/Ahriman infiltrating Plague Zombies, Heldrakes, Obliterators being...okayish, Daemon Princes with Relics, Juggerlords w/ Bikers or Spawn...
The issue is how utterly garbage the codex was written, which eventually brought it down. When you only get one Juggerlord and one Mace Prince and your opponent has like 6+ Wave Serpents, what're you gonna do?
As you say. Had some good builds, but weren't close to top tier.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm pretty sure a majority of Space Marine players would be perfectly fine with Primaris Marines replacing normal Marines rules-wise, the current problem is that the old models are left in a gakky rules-situation and Intercessors not having the options of normal Marines. Drop "normal" Marines, give Primaris comparable loadouts so people don't have to can their entire armies and call it a day.
The fact that everytime this is brought up it faces heavy resistance says otherwise.
Admittedly I have said "It won't be" because i haven't seen evidence of it. If anything regular marines will just be normal troops for space marine armies probably replacing scouts. (cause when was the last time they released a scout model?)
But that's still speculation with nothing behind it. Just a rumor mill that's churning between releases and over enthusiasm from people like Crimson.
You can keep telling yourself that, but the amount of times CSM appeared as even an allied detachment ALONE in 6th says otherwise.
Wait, are you saying everyone took them as an ally, or no one did? I don't remember reading about, or seeing large numbers of Chaos marines in 6th. Please clarify your post?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm pretty sure a majority of Space Marine players would be perfectly fine with Primaris Marines replacing normal Marines rules-wise, the current problem is that the old models are left in a gakky rules-situation and Intercessors not having the options of normal Marines. Drop "normal" Marines, give Primaris comparable loadouts so people don't have to can their entire armies and call it a day.
The fact that everytime this is brought up it faces heavy resistance says otherwise.
GW could have done two different things with Primaris that wouldn't have annoyed existing Marine players: release them as a stand-alone army, or do exactly what AlmightyWalrus suggested. Either would have cheesed off the xenos players ("Why does Imperium need yet another army to add to the soup?" vs "Why do marines get a new model range when [faction x] is still using models from [number] years ago?"), but at least Marine players wouldn't be stressing over whether their existing units would eventually be phased out.
I'm on the fence about which I would have preferred.
And what would you say to the space marine players that hate both options?
Sure, I'll clarify.
I was saying, by sheer numbers alone being just an ally, CSM offered a lot to several different armies. Being a primary detachment they were still top due to power units until 7th dropped, when everything starting escalating. After all, who needs a half functioning codex when you have just some units to use a lot of?
That's essentially what I mean when I say a poorly written codex can still be top tier.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I'm ready for the bandaid to be ripped off, Primaris everything! Drop intercessors to 15, release the other kits to finish the line then move on to other armies.
After reading the Rubicon Primaris it seems like Primaris are going to be the norm with classic marines as vets and an excuse to resculpt old resin characters or kill them off with its 38.4% survival rate.
That page seemed like a reflection of the marine community on Primaris marines
Okay, so that's GW reflecting through fiction the state of the fanbase, imo. I applaud it. It makes me sad that Calgar is Primaris now, but this is an understandable move.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/20 18:16:40
fraser1191 wrote: I'm ready for the bandaid to be ripped off, Primaris everything! Drop intercessors to 15, release the other kits to finish the line then move on to other armies.
After reading the Rubicon Primaris it seems like Primaris are going to be the norm with classic marines as vets and an excuse to resculpt old resin characters or kill them off with its 38.4% survival rate.
That page seemed like a reflection of the marine community on Primaris marines
Well Pedro Kantor will probably die at the end of Vigilius.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
fraser1191 wrote: I'm ready for the bandaid to be ripped off, Primaris everything! Drop intercessors to 15, release the other kits to finish the line then move on to other armies.
After reading the Rubicon Primaris it seems like Primaris are going to be the norm with classic marines as vets and an excuse to resculpt old resin characters or kill them off with its 38.4% survival rate.
That page seemed like a reflection of the marine community on Primaris marines
Well Pedro Kantor will probably die at the end of Vigilius.
I'd rather chapters with only one character model not die. I'm not gonna lose any sleep if Sgt. Chronus dies and fingers crossed that if they kill off sicarius they write in captain Titus as his successor
fraser1191 wrote: I'm ready for the bandaid to be ripped off, Primaris everything! Drop intercessors to 15, release the other kits to finish the line then move on to other armies.
After reading the Rubicon Primaris it seems like Primaris are going to be the norm with classic marines as vets and an excuse to resculpt old resin characters or kill them off with its 38.4% survival rate.
That page seemed like a reflection of the marine community on Primaris marines
Well Pedro Kantor will probably die at the end of Vigilius.
I'd rather chapters with only one character model not die. I'm not gonna lose any sleep if Sgt. Chronus dies and fingers crossed that if they kill off sicarius they write in captain Titus as his successor
Or Captain Uriel Ventris or Captain Fenix.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
fraser1191 wrote: I'm ready for the bandaid to be ripped off, Primaris everything! Drop intercessors to 15, release the other kits to finish the line then move on to other armies.
After reading the Rubicon Primaris it seems like Primaris are going to be the norm with classic marines as vets and an excuse to resculpt old resin characters or kill them off with its 38.4% survival rate.
That page seemed like a reflection of the marine community on Primaris marines
Well Pedro Kantor will probably die at the end of Vigilius.
I'd rather chapters with only one character model not die. I'm not gonna lose any sleep if Sgt. Chronus dies and fingers crossed that if they kill off sicarius they write in captain Titus as his successor
It would be great if Sicarius stayed a normal marine, out of pride.
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
