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Giving Rhinoes their fire points back would certainly be a start. Between the gimping of Rhinoes and Drop Pods the two workhorse transports for Space Marines were essentially dead on arrival in 8th edition.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Giving Rhinoes their fire points back would certainly be a start. Between the gimping of Rhinoes and Drop Pods the two workhorse transports for Space Marines were essentially dead on arrival in 8th edition.
Wait rhinos lost firepoints? (Tells you how often i use them!)
No wonder no one uses them!
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Put it this way: If Space Marines had a special rule on a non-HQ unit in 7th edition and it wasn't Power of the Machine Spirit, it probably got removed. Relentless on Terminators, the ability to fit Dreadnoughts and Centurions in Drop Pods, fire points on Rhinoes, the list goes on and on and on...
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Put it this way: If Space Marines had a special rule on a non-HQ unit in 7th edition and it wasn't Power of the Machine Spirit, it probably got removed. Relentless on Terminators, the ability to fit Dreadnoughts and Centurions in Drop Pods, fire points on Rhinoes, the list goes on and on and on...
Hrm, those are also some good points (though, IIRC, fire points on transports have largely disappeared except the Repressor). Why Dreads cant be podded anymore is certainly a head scratcher.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
I've always been surprised by how absolute kittens marines are in close combat. There are some decent melee specialist marines, but your average bolter bros are laughably bad.
And in my thousand boyz army, even terminators are terribad at melee.
It's possible I'm spoiled by my main army for years has been orks.
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I've always been surprised by how absolute kittens marines are in close combat. There are some decent melee specialist marines, but your average bolter bros are laughably bad.
And in my thousand boyz army, even terminators are terribad at melee.
It's possible I'm spoiled by my main army for years has been orks.
Well, yea, Orks put almost anything to shame even when they don't have Choppas.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Put it this way: If Space Marines had a special rule on a non-HQ unit in 7th edition and it wasn't Power of the Machine Spirit, it probably got removed. Relentless on Terminators, the ability to fit Dreadnoughts and Centurions in Drop Pods, fire points on Rhinoes, the list goes on and on and on...
So heroic intervention for vanguard (which made them amazing), all +1 attacks for having a pistol and a close combat weapon... +2 attacks for dual weapon. all that made marines great are gone.
Yeah so much for the "Marines are fine." Comments i've seen.
I've always been surprised by how absolute kittens marines are in close combat.
Marines in general lost special rules that made them very good to take. Tacticals lost their and they shall know no fear and combat tactics ability, and they lose their +1 attack from their combat knives.
Its a laughably horrible situation for marines because they have lost a lot of the fluff that made them good, and the units that should be better just aren't. Like how a land raider cannot fire as well as an aggressor or a venerable dreadnought suffers - to hit when moving are all stupid and unfluffy.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Put it this way: If Space Marines had a special rule on a non-HQ unit in 7th edition and it wasn't Power of the Machine Spirit, it probably got removed. Relentless on Terminators, the ability to fit Dreadnoughts and Centurions in Drop Pods, fire points on Rhinoes, the list goes on and on and on...
Hrm, those are also some good points (though, IIRC, fire points on transports have largely disappeared except the Repressor). Why Dreads cant be podded anymore is certainly a head scratcher.
Fire points being removed sorta invalidates what made rhinos worth taking. You would sometimes put squads of marines in rhinos to give them extra protection for their heavy weapons. That ability disappearing hurts marines more than any other race.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/07 18:07:30
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Marines being awful in close combat is really the kicker.
If marines were 2w, 2a base, then it'd probably be fine.
The other issue is that armies like Orks are also more mobile than space marines. Better in melee is one thing, but better mobility and better melee is another. You're winning pretty much every fight and also dictating the engagements.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/07 18:10:18
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: Marines being awful in close combat is really the kicker.
If marines were 2w, 2a base, then it'd probably be fine.
Agreed, I think.
Or had some other ability that made their close-combat worth anything at all, though simply upping their attacks to 2 might be enough. With corresponding upgrades to other units, like ASM having 2+1 or Sergeants having 3, etc. If I had my 'druthers, I'd just drop the Primaris to 15 points, squat the Tactical Marines, and make Primaris have similar weapon options to the Tac Squad. Then, add a Designer's Note that Minimarines are valid models for these nu-marines, s'long as the wargear is recognizable (e.g. dual-wielding bolters or the like for ASM->Inceptor change).
Kap'n Krump wrote: I've always been surprised by how absolute kittens marines are in close combat. There are some decent melee specialist marines, but your average bolter bros are laughably bad.
And in my thousand boyz army, even terminators are terribad at melee.
It's possible I'm spoiled by my main army for years has been orks.
To be fair, they didn't use to need to be super killy to be good. Now, everything has to be killed to the last man in CC or people can leave combat, whereas in older eras a Marine squad could win combat by one or two in the first round with charge bonuses and then break their opponent and sweep them off the board. I can recall lots of games where only one or two models were killed by a charging Tac or CSM squad, but because of the other mechanics that was all they needed. Now the game is dramatically more directly attritional which doesn't work so well with the way things are in 8E.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I've always been surprised by how absolute kittens marines are in close combat. There are some decent melee specialist marines, but your average bolter bros are laughably bad.
And in my thousand boyz army, even terminators are terribad at melee.
It's possible I'm spoiled by my main army for years has been orks.
To be fair, they didn't use to need to be super killy to be good. Now, everything has to be killed to the last man in CC or people can leave combat, whereas in older eras a Marine squad could win combat by one or two in the first round with charge bonuses and then break their opponent and sweep them off the board. I can recall lots of games where only one or two models were killed by a charging Tac or CSM squad, but because of the other mechanics that was all they needed. Now the game is dramatically more directly attritional which doesn't work so well with the way things are in 8E.
That's a good point. Tacts used to be very good at Sweeping Advancing entire IG squads off the table, while now you have to kill something like 7 to really be able to do that. And, if in earlier editions, you failed, you at least were protected from bullets, and your superior stats meant that you could use the time to win the combat.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Put it this way: If Space Marines had a special rule on a non-HQ unit in 7th edition and it wasn't Power of the Machine Spirit, it probably got removed. Relentless on Terminators, the ability to fit Dreadnoughts and Centurions in Drop Pods, fire points on Rhinoes, the list goes on and on and on...
So heroic intervention for vanguard (which made them amazing), all +1 attacks for having a pistol and a close combat weapon... +2 attacks for dual weapon. all that made marines great are gone.
Yeah so much for the "Marines are fine." Comments i've seen.
I've always been surprised by how absolute kittens marines are in close combat.
Marines in general lost special rules that made them very good to take. Tacticals lost their and they shall know no fear and combat tactics ability, and they lose their +1 attack from their combat knives.
Its a laughably horrible situation for marines because they have lost a lot of the fluff that made them good, and the units that should be better just aren't. Like how a land raider cannot fire as well as an aggressor or a venerable dreadnought suffers - to hit when moving are all stupid and unfluffy.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Put it this way: If Space Marines had a special rule on a non-HQ unit in 7th edition and it wasn't Power of the Machine Spirit, it probably got removed. Relentless on Terminators, the ability to fit Dreadnoughts and Centurions in Drop Pods, fire points on Rhinoes, the list goes on and on and on...
Hrm, those are also some good points (though, IIRC, fire points on transports have largely disappeared except the Repressor). Why Dreads cant be podded anymore is certainly a head scratcher.
Fire points being removed sorta invalidates what made rhinos worth taking. You would sometimes put squads of marines in rhinos to give them extra protection for their heavy weapons. That ability disappearing hurts marines more than any other race.
On the other side of that (the standard) WS4 marines used to hit other WS4 units on 4s, but it's now a 3 all of the time. Of course, now Orks do, too...
+1 attack for BP/CCW is still around as Chainsword. I don't recall a +2 for dual LC.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Put it this way: If Space Marines had a special rule on a non-HQ unit in 7th edition and it wasn't Power of the Machine Spirit, it probably got removed. Relentless on Terminators, the ability to fit Dreadnoughts and Centurions in Drop Pods, fire points on Rhinoes, the list goes on and on and on...
So heroic intervention for vanguard (which made them amazing), all +1 attacks for having a pistol and a close combat weapon... +2 attacks for dual weapon. all that made marines great are gone.
Yeah so much for the "Marines are fine." Comments i've seen.
I've always been surprised by how absolute kittens marines are in close combat.
Marines in general lost special rules that made them very good to take. Tacticals lost their and they shall know no fear and combat tactics ability, and they lose their +1 attack from their combat knives.
Its a laughably horrible situation for marines because they have lost a lot of the fluff that made them good, and the units that should be better just aren't. Like how a land raider cannot fire as well as an aggressor or a venerable dreadnought suffers - to hit when moving are all stupid and unfluffy.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Put it this way: If Space Marines had a special rule on a non-HQ unit in 7th edition and it wasn't Power of the Machine Spirit, it probably got removed. Relentless on Terminators, the ability to fit Dreadnoughts and Centurions in Drop Pods, fire points on Rhinoes, the list goes on and on and on...
Hrm, those are also some good points (though, IIRC, fire points on transports have largely disappeared except the Repressor). Why Dreads cant be podded anymore is certainly a head scratcher.
Fire points being removed sorta invalidates what made rhinos worth taking. You would sometimes put squads of marines in rhinos to give them extra protection for their heavy weapons. That ability disappearing hurts marines more than any other race.
On the other side of that (the standard) WS4 marines used to hit other WS4 units on 4s, but it's now a 3 all of the time. Of course, now Orks do, too...
+1 attack for BP/CCW is still around as Chainsword. I don't recall a +2 for dual LC.
You would get +1 attack from lightning claws, not +2, but honors gave them +1 attack on base and +1 attack on charge. so you would on base have +4 attacks per unit with rerolls for wounds and hits. With vanguard vets you could charge the same turn you arrived from deepstrike. Which gave them amazing protection and lethality. Now they are erm... better assault marines.
They would hit on 4s indeed, honestly it also prevented certain other races from getting out of control, dreads would murder most infantry that got into range because of its higher WS and armor value.
Removing alot of the rules associated with space marine units just destroys marines in general.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/07 18:20:15
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Marmatag wrote: Marines being awful in close combat is really the kicker.
If marines were 2w, 2a base, then it'd probably be fine.
Agreed, I think.
Or had some other ability that made their close-combat worth anything at all, though simply upping their attacks to 2 might be enough. With corresponding upgrades to other units, like ASM having 2+1 or Sergeants having 3, etc. If I had my 'druthers, I'd just drop the Primaris to 15 points, squat the Tactical Marines, and make Primaris have similar weapon options to the Tac Squad. Then, add a Designer's Note that Minimarines are valid models for these nu-marines, s'long as the wargear is recognizable (e.g. dual-wielding bolters or the like for ASM->Inceptor change).
Or just make "primaris upgrades" be a 1 point per model cost available to any squad, taken for the entire squad. This would increase their attack by 1, their wounds by 1, and add -1 ap to their chainswords and boltguns. And it needs to be available to all squads, not just basic marines. Primaris Death Company. Primaris Wulfen. Primaris Black Knights. Primaris Thunderwolf Cavalry. Primaris Grey Knight Paladins. All at the cost of 1ppm to upgrade. Suddenly marines can specialize a bit, and they don't have to pay for extra wounds where they don't need it.
In truth they could get creative with their Primaris Upgrades if they wanted. Some units might not get an extra wound, they might get an extra strength instead. Or treat it like combat drugs, where you have a spate of options:
Intercessors and Reivers would probably need a redesign from a rules standpoint, but they're already in need of that, anyway.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/07 18:26:41
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I've always been surprised by how absolute kittens marines are in close combat. There are some decent melee specialist marines, but your average bolter bros are laughably bad.
And in my thousand boyz army, even terminators are terribad at melee.
It's possible I'm spoiled by my main army for years has been orks.
To be fair, they didn't use to need to be super killy to be good. Now, everything has to be killed to the last man in CC or people can leave combat, whereas in older eras a Marine squad could win combat by one or two in the first round with charge bonuses and then break their opponent and sweep them off the board. I can recall lots of games where only one or two models were killed by a charging Tac or CSM squad, but because of the other mechanics that was all they needed. Now the game is dramatically more directly attritional which doesn't work so well with the way things are in 8E.
That's a good point. Tacts used to be very good at Sweeping Advancing entire IG squads off the table, while now you have to kill something like 7 to really be able to do that. And, if in earlier editions, you failed, you at least were protected from bullets, and your superior stats meant that you could use the time to win the combat.
Yeah, the CC changes made them much less capable. To be fair, there were some issues with horde CC units like Boyz (5E No Retreat was ridiculous) being treated badly under that system at times, but I think we need to see something more in line with the old concept return if the current statline is to be retained. Otherwise some choppiness enhancement is required.
Asherian Command wrote:
Fire points being removed sorta invalidates what made rhinos worth taking. You would sometimes put squads of marines in rhinos to give them extra protection for their heavy weapons. That ability disappearing hurts marines more than any other race.
To be fair, if Chimeras had been worth taking between 2012 and the end of 2018, they'd have felt it at least as bad too
But yes, it was a big nerf to the utility of the Rhino for sure.
Or just make "primaris upgrades" be a 1 point per model cost available to any squad, taken for the entire squad. This would increase their attack by 1, their wounds by 1, and add -1 ap to their chainswords and boltguns. And it needs to be available to all squads, not just basic marines. Primaris Death Company. Primaris Wulfen. Primaris Black Knights. Primaris Thunderwolf Cavalry. Primaris Grey Knight Paladins. All at the cost of 1ppm to upgrade. Suddenly marines can specialize a bit, and they don't have to pay for extra wounds where they don't need it.
At 1ppm, this would be a mandatory no-brainer always take option that nobody would ever not avail themselves of
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And nothing rides in the Razorback, as those will be Scouts or camping Lascannons or Heavy Bolters. If you want strictly a transport though, Rhinos do it as they don't sacrifice any shooting to do so.
That's the key difference. Dark Eldar don't have to worry about this anyway though because anyone can shoot out of the Raider/Venom.
I play SW so scouts are not troops and my tacs can't have heavy bolters or lascannons. Razorbacks are mostly gunboats but their transport capacity is definitely useful. Drukhari vehicles are open topped, which is a huge difference, but unless you embark wyches or incubi they're not really transports, just protections for the shooty units that fire safely from the vehicles. They're also gunboats mostly, just like razorbacks.
I'd love rhinos with 2 firing ports but it still wouldn't affect the size of the embarked squad. 2x5 dudes with a special weapon would be the way to go.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And nothing rides in the Razorback, as those will be Scouts or camping Lascannons or Heavy Bolters. If you want strictly a transport though, Rhinos do it as they don't sacrifice any shooting to do so.
That's the key difference. Dark Eldar don't have to worry about this anyway though because anyone can shoot out of the Raider/Venom.
I play SW so scouts are not troops and my tacs can't have heavy bolters or lascannons. Razorbacks are mostly gunboats but their transport capacity is definitely useful. Drukhari vehicles are open topped, which is a huge difference, but unless you embark wyches or incubi they're not really transports, just protections for the shooty units that fire safely from the vehicles. They're also gunboats mostly, just like razorbacks.
I'd love rhinos with 2 firing ports but it still wouldn't affect the size of the embarked squad. 2x5 dudes with a special weapon would be the way to go.
Maybe that's why you don't understand any of the core Marine issues.
Space Wolves have always been Marines +1. Remember how stupid Grey Hunters were with the 5th edition codex?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Decrease special weapon costs for melta and flamer.
Give space marines back their bolter drill ability as a stratagem that works on all space marine units with 'bolt' in their profile.
Unload - Space marines fire two times in a turn but cannot fire the next turn and this ability cannot be used again.
Land Raider- Can disengage from combat and fire into combatants they are engaged with.
Vindicator - Just Remove it.
Hellblasters - 2pts less, 10pts less for all the hellblaster equipment, give them an anti-infantry 'gattling gun' variant. Name changed to Support Unit
Reivers moved to troop choice 3pts less.
Scouts Decrease to 10pts ppm. (Might not be good)
Tactical Squad - Decrease to 12ppm, if you have a full squad of tactical space marines they count as two troop choices when fulfilling the requirements of a detachment position, they do not take up an additional troop slot. In addition, they gain +1 attack and +1LD. And may use combat squads as normal.
Terminators ignore 1 ap on anything that has less strength than terminator's current toughness.
Apothecaries can take combi-weapons/storm bolters.
Librarians - give them back their gates of infinity, vortex of doom, force dome, and avenger.
Avenger - Assault D6 - Strength 5 Ap -3 D1 - this weapon automatically hits.
Can manifest on a 7
Force Dome
All units nearby within 8" gain a +5 invulnerable save.
Warp charge 7
Vortex of Doom
S 10 Ap -6 Heavy 2 D6 D - ignores all - to hit
Warp Charge of 5
Gates of Infinity -5th Edition Codex- Can either travel by himself or take a single unit into the warp into deep strike then deploy 24". But if he travels with a unit increases the chance of an issue, if a double is rolled one member of the unit is automatically removed.
When Equipped with a lascannon or lascannon destroyer for every 6 rolled on to hit deals 2 hits instead of the normal 1 hit when the targeting unit is firing upon TITAN and SUPER HEAVY Units.
Tactical Squad / Devastator / Stern Guard / Terminators - Bolter Training (1CP) May fire an additional time when equipped with any bolt weapons. If this unit excluding Terminators moves this turn they cannot use this strategem and may not fire twice with a bolt weapon.
Vanguard Veterans - Gain Heroic Intervention - If a jump pack is equipped vanguard vets can elect to perform a heroic intervention, they cannot shoot the turn they arrive from deep strike but can assault (provided they are close enough) and gain +1 attack if they make a successful charge.
Sternguard Veterans - Special Ammunition - Check 5th edition codex.....
Terminators - Relentless - Ignores all - to hit on heavy weapons...
Terminators - Ceramite Shell - Ignore 1 ap.
Honor Guard - May equip storm shields...
Chapter Champion - May equip stormshield.... or a powe axe, or a relic blade...
Drop Pod reduced in cost to 40pts.
Techmarine - Forgemaster for an additional 20pts gain +2 BS and 6Ws may equip a conversion beamer in addition to a servo arm and servo harness. may use bolster defenses.
Bolster Defense (Imperial Fists Only Chapter Tactic),
For imperial fists, place three shielded walls or cover improve the save of that terrain by +1. Select one shield wall to improve the save of that terrain by +1
Raven Guard (Chapter Tactic) Infiltrate.... (Why wasn't this a thing already?!) All infantry, special characters, and DREADNOUGHTS can infiltrate. In additional all jump pack armed units can immunity to overwatch, they may ignore overwatched units entirely.
Stratagem Sabotage - Select an enemy unit that is deployed this game, that unit suffers -1 to hit for the rest of the game. (2cp) (can only be used once!)
Iron Hands (Chapter Tactic) Iron within - All Infantry models gain +1 to their toughness.
Stratagem -
Binary Diversion - Select a friendly iron hands character and then one of your opponent's vehicle or titan unit that is within 6" that unit cannot fire or make attacks this turn. (2CP)
White Scars (Chapter Tactic) Swordstorm - On charge, if an infantry, jump pack, or bike unit is within 1" for every model in the squad roll a d6, on a 6+ that unit suffers a mortal wound. All characters hit on 5+.
Stratagem Masters of the Wind- Select a unit of infantry or bike unit, this unit gains an additional 2" to their movement and their assault and charge for one turn only. (1cp)
Ultramarines (Chapter Tactic) Progressive Assault - Units that fire at the same unit can call out or mark a single unit (Can only be done once per a turn from all ultramarines for that turn). Any Ultramarines that fire at that marked unit gain +1 to hit with all ULTRAMARINE units and ignore all penalties to hit. 1s will always fail. (Does not work on scouts or servitors)
Stratagem Tactical Retreat - When an Ultramarine unit is charged, this unit may elect to retreat during your opponent's charge (2cp)
Salamanders (Chapter Tactic) Masters of the Forge - All flame, thunder hammers, and melta weapons are half cost. Any weapons that are decimal are rounded up.
Stratagem Holy Flame of Nocturne - Roll an additional D6 when firing with flame weapons from a single unit this turn (2cp)
Black Templar (Chapter Tactic) SUFFER NOT THE UNCLEAN TO LIVE - On rolls of 6 when on charge or attacking in close combat, gain an additional hit. If this unit has charged this turn gain an additional attack if a charge was successfully made by the unit possessing this ability in addition to the attacks generated from Suffer, not the unclean to live!
Stratagem Sword Brethren - select a unit of veterans they gain +1 attack and +1 to their leadership to their profile to a max of 3(1/2/3 CP)
These chapter tactics can either be: Only for mono marine factions... or cost 1 cp.... (similar to detachments but are given a rule automatically)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/07 20:02:33
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
If marines were 2w, 2a base, then it'd probably be fine.
They are.
Not shiny metal, psker marines and spikey marines nor many non-Primaris marine weapon loadouts. It is all fine and well that GW wants to make Primaris the new marine. But they seem to be dragging their heels getting those models out to fully replace them. It is still uncertain if some factions are even going see Primaris nearly has much as it is exactly uncertain how future Primaris loadouts are going to look. If I had the datasheets to that basically matched the old wargear options as 'Primaris' Chaos Space Marines I would just count as all my models and keep gaming. I imagine the same goes for other loyalist marine players who want the wargrear options non-Primaris marines.
However, just like Marmatag's upgrade idea (which I think it a good idea), I don't see GW doing it anytime soon as most players probably would do like I would and just count-as their marines as Primaris without buying new models. Yes, I get that those stats exist for a handful of units. But those stats aren't available yet for a few factions nor with the loadout availability of the disenfranchised poster-boys of the setting.
Honestly almost everything in 40k could use a points increase and bump the default game size to 2500 points or something.
Points have become way too compressed toward the bottom and mid-high priced stuff comparably too cheap.
How can we balance units like guardsmen or ork boyz when the points are so damn close to each other?
Guardsman/Conscript 4
Cultist 5
Kabalite Warrior 6
Fire Warrior/Ork Boy 7
Wych/Guardian 8
With all of these 1 point away from each other you can't adjust any points values without having to debate "Is a guardsman as good as a cultist who can be a 30 man mob with VotLT and ToT?". "A Kabalite Warrior might be too cheap at 6 points, but it's not as good as an Ork Boy or a FW so you can't increase them to 7". You also run into Conscripts being worthless at the same price as a guardsman, but 3ppm would be way too good.
You also can't just increase the price of the cheap units because a lot of vehicles would feel even cheaper by comparison. Increase the cost of everything in the game, spread out the points of the basic infantry so that an increase of 1-2 ppm isn't a massive difference like it is now. Then you make the default game size 2500 or 3k points instead of 2k and you have about the same size game but with the ability to adjust points much more subtly.
Almost all of the troops under 10 ppm should be looked at, seriously, as most likely undercosted.
Some of the super heavies in this game are also way undercosted.
Lethality really is a problem in 40k. Thus making it a race to the bottom for troops, wounds per point is king over anything else. Of course it doesn't help that Guardsmen can also pump out 3x str4 attacks per model for effectively nothing, as you already bring HQs for a battalion tax.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Asherian Command wrote: That i can agree. Increasing points across the board might be helpful for all involved. Move marines back to 15pts, and guardsmen up to 8pts.
Guardsmen should be 7 points even if marines don't change at all.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Asherian Command wrote: That i can agree. Increasing points across the board might be helpful for all involved. Move marines back to 15pts, and guardsmen up to 8pts.
Guardsmen should be 7 points even if marines don't change at all.
You mean *gasps* the original cost of guardsmen!? (stand corrected ignore this point!)
Wow we're back full circle!
I still cannot believe they decreased the cost of guardsmen so much. And then increased the cost of wraith knights to be more expensive than knights. (even though they used to cost 225pts now they are 480pts for the same gear....)
If anything Imperial Knights and other super heavies should be above 400pts at a minimum.
All infantry needs to be raised in cost, I am fine with that, as long as my infantry is worthwhile in taking.
Give us back some abilities that were taken away for no discernable reason.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/07 21:42:55
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
They were 10ppm in 2E (when Marines were 27), 5 and then 6 in 3E and 3.5E/4E (and Guard were arguably at their worst in this era) and they've been 5ppm since then until 8E.
Also, all 7ppm Guardsmen are going to result in is the absence of Guard infantry aside from Stormtroopers on tables, you're not fixing anything there, that's not a serious game design solution to anything, it's just hyperbole.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
They were 10ppm in 2E (when Marines were 27), 5 and then 6 in 3E and 3.5E/4E (and Guard were arguably at their worst in this era) and they've been 5ppm since then until 8E.
Also, all 7ppm Guardsmen are going to result in is the absence of Guard infantry aside from Stormtroopers on tables, you're not fixing anything there, that's not a serious game design solution to anything, it's just hyperbole.
So the best thing to do is to what then?
increase costs or decrease them? Or add rules? There are many avenues we can go here.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
cmspano wrote:Honestly almost everything in 40k could use a points increase and bump the default game size to 2500 points or something.
Points have become way too compressed toward the bottom and mid-high priced stuff comparably too cheap.
I wasn't joking in the Unpopular Opinion thread about increasing the points to things so a 2000 point list would be 40,000 points. I don't think many players actually calculate their points by hand anymore anyways and those that do probably could handle it. Those that don't could use Power Level which at that point feels like it would have more of a purpose since the granular ranges are so different. With 40,000 points GW should have plenty of wiggle room (more than they should ever need) to get the points to a decent balance as far a points can balance anything.
They were 10ppm in 2E (when Marines were 27), 5 and then 6 in 3E and 3.5E/4E (and Guard were arguably at their worst in this era) and they've been 5ppm since then until 8E.
Also, all 7ppm Guardsmen are going to result in is the absence of Guard infantry aside from Stormtroopers on tables, you're not fixing anything there, that's not a serious game design solution to anything, it's just hyperbole.
So the best thing to do is to what then?
increase costs or decrease them? Or add rules? There are many avenues we can go here.
I think Guardsmen strictly as an infantry unit facing other infantry units is fine at 4-5 points per model. It is all the other things that can be buffed on them that make them seem like they should be more expensive. That, and CP generation. I think increasing the cost of the unit itself doesn't really treat the problem cheap guardsmen are creating.
