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Ghorgul wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
I simply don't get why marine flyers having -2 to hit is apparently OP but Alitoc stacking -2 on many units and -3 if they want is ok?

I don't think anyone should be able to stack -2 or -3 on anything. I'm trying to keep suggestions sensible.

I'm sorry but double shooting choosen of combi spam terminators for 1 CP is broken also it makes at most 1 maybe 2 units of tacs worth taking.
If anything-1 amy wide needs to be banished from the game not added toi.

The stratagem suggestion was worded in a way that it can be only used on Troop Choice Tactical Squad or Chaos Space Marines units. Troop choices Space Marine 'Tactical Squad' unit has Tactical Squad keyword, and CSM 'Chaos Space Marines' unit Chaos Space Marines keyword. Like I said in the my post, the limited weapon options for the troop choice marines already limit this stratagem greatly. This would be simply to allow basic troop marine choices, especially larger 10+ man units more firepower. Yeah, it's semi powerful, 10 man unit with 2 lascannons however costs 180 points, so it's not that cheap really and with the current amount of firepower in the game shooting 10 marines off the board is academic discussion at best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Shooting twice is usually a 2CP stratagem, double shooting for free or just 1 CP is always a broken combo unless it's on a very poor shooting unit like the ork gunwagon.

Did any of you really read the stratagem suggestion? It was specifically worded so that it only works for Troop Choice Space Marine 'Tactical Squad' unit or CSM 'Chaos Space Marines' unit (well I admit I wrote 'Chaos Space Marine' originally without the -s for plural). Neither of those units are good at shooting, except if you let them come within 12" of you, but whose fault would that be really? Maybe someone would actually get drop pods if this stratagem existed.

I'll admit for Black Legion CSM running 20 man Chaos Space Marines troop choice unit(s) with Abaddon this suggested stratagem could be too powerful.

Except for the fact that with Guilliman they would be rerolling everything, something that you are not accounting for (that's why I'm advocating a complete rework of Bobby G. rules).
Many codices that have the "shoot twice" Stratagems do not have any (or minor ones at most) rerolls available for this very reason



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I've always been surprised by how absolute kittens marines are in close combat. There are some decent melee specialist marines, but your average bolter bros are laughably bad.

And in my thousand boyz army, even terminators are terribad at melee.

It's possible I'm spoiled by my main army for years has been orks.

Terminators are bad because 2 attacks at 4+ is BAD BAD BAD. If they were hitting at 3s their damage output would be decent

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Except for the fact that with Guilliman they would be rerolling everything, something that you are not accounting for (that's why I'm advocating a complete rework of Bobby G. rules).
Many codices that have the "shoot twice" Stratagems do not have any (or minor ones at most) rerolls available for this very reason

At this point I feel like normal Marines and Chaos Marines can't have nice things because Bobby G and Abaddon exist.
At some point in tournaments people were running 'Abaddon's Artillery Train': Abaddon + 3 Hellforged Scorpius Tanks. Basically firing 18D3 S 6 AP -2 D 2 shots a turn, with re-rolls to hit from Abaddon.

Well, basic troop MEQs still do need some firepower increase, good question is how to do it with all the buff synergies available and CSM codex having fire twice stratagem. Apparently these units are condemned to be bad outside the 1 or 2 combos, too expensive for screens, so expensive that it's actually ok deal to shoot AT weaponry at them if there are no vehicle targets available.
Basic MEQs also easily lose objectives if contesting unit has objective secured because 1) they don't have model count to begin with 2) the model count they have is really easy to thin down with most weapons in game.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Just had a thought on the subject of Stratagems: why not give Marines a bunch of decent Stratagems that cost 0 CP? That way you wouldn't be penalized for not playing a Horde army, as you'd not have to pay Command Points to use them, but you'd also not be able to spam them on every unit. You could even give the Stratagems some sort of Keyword system so that if you popped our hypothetical +1 to hit stratagem on a unit of Hellblasters and the Stratagem had a "Firepower" keyword, that'd prevent you from using the hypothetical Advance and shoot weapons at full BS stratagem with the "Firepower" keyword (examples only, disregard any balance or lack thereof between the two).

At that point why not make it a special rule with that specific unit?

Because having a Stratagem for 0 CP that says "Pick a friendly <ADEPTUS ASTARTES> Unit. This unit gains +1 to hit until the end of your turn" works on any one unit in the army, but you'd be limited to only using it on one thing per turn in order to limit crazy rules-interactions somewhat.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Just had a thought on the subject of Stratagems: why not give Marines a bunch of decent Stratagems that cost 0 CP? That way you wouldn't be penalized for not playing a Horde army, as you'd not have to pay Command Points to use them, but you'd also not be able to spam them on every unit. You could even give the Stratagems some sort of Keyword system so that if you popped our hypothetical +1 to hit stratagem on a unit of Hellblasters and the Stratagem had a "Firepower" keyword, that'd prevent you from using the hypothetical Advance and shoot weapons at full BS stratagem with the "Firepower" keyword (examples only, disregard any balance or lack thereof between the two).

At that point why not make it a special rule with that specific unit?

Because having a Stratagem for 0 CP that says "Pick a friendly <ADEPTUS ASTARTES> Unit. This unit gains +1 to hit until the end of your turn" works on any one unit in the army, but you'd be limited to only using it on one thing per turn in order to limit crazy rules-interactions somewhat.

True, and it's generally good idea, however it would still allow some crazy combo stacking even in the form you suggested it.

to all the people that think +1A and +1W are going to fix marines. I would like to point out that termintors already can have those. And they have better basic weapons then tacs, and a better save and inv. They still suck.

GK strike can have 2A with falchions, and they aren't good either.

Now on the other hand making marines 10pts would be bad too. So in my opinion the only way to fix marines is through rules. Maybe they need some point adjustments. Termintors still cost too much for what they do. But what they really need is good rules. If primaris had a good rule set they could be good. They just need something on the level of Inari soulfire or reaper no rule set.

Ghorgul wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
I simply don't get why marine flyers having -2 to hit is apparently OP but Alitoc stacking -2 on many units and -3 if they want is ok?

I don't think anyone should be able to stack -2 or -3 on anything. I'm trying to keep suggestions sensible.

I'm sorry but double shooting choosen of combi spam terminators for 1 CP is broken also it makes at most 1 maybe 2 units of tacs worth taking.
If anything-1 amy wide needs to be banished from the game not added toi.

The stratagem suggestion was worded in a way that it can be only used on Troop Choice Tactical Squad or Chaos Space Marines units. Troop choices Space Marine 'Tactical Squad' unit has Tactical Squad keyword, and CSM 'Chaos Space Marines' unit Chaos Space Marines keyword. Like I said in the my post, the limited weapon options for the troop choice marines already limit this stratagem greatly. This would be simply to allow basic troop marine choices, especially larger 10+ man units more firepower. Yeah, it's semi powerful, 10 man unit with 2 lascannons however costs 180 points, so it's not that cheap really and with the current amount of firepower in the game shooting 10 marines off the board is academic discussion at best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Shooting twice is usually a 2CP stratagem, double shooting for free or just 1 CP is always a broken combo unless it's on a very poor shooting unit like the ork gunwagon.

Did any of you really read the stratagem suggestion? It was specifically worded so that it only works for Troop Choice Space Marine 'Tactical Squad' unit or CSM 'Chaos Space Marines' unit (well I admit I wrote 'Chaos Space Marine' originally without the -s for plural). Neither of those units are good at shooting, except if you let them come within 12" of you, but whose fault would that be really? Maybe someone would actually get drop pods if this stratagem existed.

I'll admit for Black Legion CSM running 20 man Chaos Space Marines troop choice unit(s) with Abaddon this suggested stratagem could be too powerful.

Or they can just make the shooting twice Strategem 3CP just like the fighting twice one.

Karol wrote:
to all the people that think +1A and +1W are going to fix marines. I would like to point out that termintors already can have those. And they have better basic weapons then tacs, and a better save and inv. They still suck.

GK strike can have 2A with falchions, and they aren't good either.

Now on the other hand making marines 10pts would be bad too. So in my opinion the only way to fix marines is through rules. Maybe they need some point adjustments. Termintors still cost too much for what they do. But what they really need is good rules. If primaris had a good rule set they could be good. They just need something on the level of Inari soulfire or reaper no rule set.

I think doing what the 30k marines had for rules is best, each squad needs to have a unique ability that gives them power.

ITs why I've suggested over and over again that marines should get bolter drill as a passive for tacticals where they unload every single bolter they have, as long as they have not moved that turn, and it would work only on bolt weapons. Encouraging people to take multiple bolt weaponry not just plasma weapons.

Terminators need Relentless as a rule and some form of sweeping advance.

For full tacticals/intercessors the unit gains +1 attack and +1ld and counts as two troop choices as long as they are combat squaded.

Vanguard regain their heroic intervention ability and can enter from deepstrike and charge the same turn but they can't shoot their weapons or run.

Sternguard are given back their ammo differences. (This should've enver been removed)

Techmarines can improve the cover of your choice.

Whirlwinds can lay mines.

Landspeeders can guide and improve shots from other vehicles.

Predators can combine shots to become titan killers.

Land Raiders can fire into melee when engaged in melee and can auto repair.

Storm Ravens have flares that they can shoot out. (Essentially an invulnerable save / halves wounds from missiles)

There are so many things you can do to make marines viable and have valuable troops. I completely agree with better special rules that is what Marines are extremely lacking.

Marines having less "heavy" heavy weapons would be a huge buff in my opinion.

Like Galef said making the heavy bolter rapid fire 2 would be good

Making the multi melta assault 1 or assault 2 at 12", or lord even heavy 2 at 24" would be nice. I'm not a big fan of paying 22 points for 1 shot

But I'd go with a lazy patch by making everything "astartes X" so there's no cascading effect

 fraser1191 wrote:
Marines having less "heavy" heavy weapons would be a huge buff in my opinion.

Like Galef said making the heavy bolter rapid fire 2 would be good

Making the multi melta assault 1 or assault 2 at 12", or lord even heavy 2 at 24" would be nice. I'm not a big fan of paying 22 points for 1 shot

But I'd go with a lazy patch by making everything "astartes X" so there's no cascading effect

I would also say the same thing about assault cannons give em back rending of some kind it would make its point cost actually be like "Oh yeah that makes sense." Not just a better heavy bolter with +1 strength and 3 attacks more...

Storm Bolters honestly should be an assault weapon.

But i agree marine weapons already cost a premium to use. it would make sense they would have differences compared to other armies that use them.

I kinda agree about about storm bolters

It's just weird that some weapons were changed with a play style in mind. Off the top of my head there the DE splinter cannon which went from Salvo to rapid fire (though I think if they made it heavy no one would bother). That was made with Raiders in mind, but I guess marines are expected to stand and shoot?

 fraser1191 wrote:
I kinda agree about about storm bolters

It's just weird that some weapons were changed with a play style in mind. Off the top of my head there the DE splinter cannon which went from Salvo to rapid fire (though I think if they made it heavy no one would bother). That was made with Raiders in mind, but I guess marines are expected to stand and shoot?

Isn't that the opposite of what marines do in the lore? They aren't really the standing shooting type.

I think +1 str to all bolt weapons might be enough to help Marines. Now their basic guys wound T8 on a 5+ and all basic infantry on a 3+. Also to help power armor I’d like to give them +1 to save vs ap -1 damage.

Those two changes should be enough to make Marines competitive.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Marines having less "heavy" heavy weapons would be a huge buff in my opinion.

Like Galef said making the heavy bolter rapid fire 2 would be good

Making the multi melta assault 1 or assault 2 at 12", or lord even heavy 2 at 24" would be nice. I'm not a big fan of paying 22 points for 1 shot

But I'd go with a lazy patch by making everything "astartes X" so there's no cascading effect

So, here's a thought for an Astartes-only rule. Give it a cheesy name as appropriate.
-Rapid Fire weapons become Assault, and double the number of shots. So a Bolter becomes 24" Assault 2.
-Heavy weapons ignore the penalty for moving and firing.
-Assault weapons ignore the penalty for advancing and firing.

Because this is an army-wide rule rather than a weapon rule, the weapon profiles can remain the same, so no impact on non-Astartes factions.

Your Bolters become able to fire twice at 24", and can fire at -1 while Advancing if needed. Heavy weapons can't fire while Advancing, but can move and fire to keep up. Assault weapons become fully usable even while maximizing movement. Marines get more firepower at long range on their basic weapons, and generally more ability to move while firing army-wide.

Would that be sufficient to make Marines useful at their current price point?

catbarf wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Marines having less "heavy" heavy weapons would be a huge buff in my opinion.

Like Galef said making the heavy bolter rapid fire 2 would be good

Making the multi melta assault 1 or assault 2 at 12", or lord even heavy 2 at 24" would be nice. I'm not a big fan of paying 22 points for 1 shot

But I'd go with a lazy patch by making everything "astartes X" so there's no cascading effect

So, here's a thought for an Astartes-only rule. Give it a cheesy name as appropriate.
-Rapid Fire weapons become Assault, and double the number of shots. So a Bolter becomes 24" Assault 2.
-Heavy weapons ignore the penalty for moving and firing.
-Assault weapons ignore the penalty for advancing and firing.

Because this is an army-wide rule rather than a weapon rule, the weapon profiles can remain the same, so no impact on non-Astartes factions.

Your Bolters become able to fire twice at 24", and can fire at -1 while Advancing if needed. Heavy weapons can't fire while Advancing, but can move and fire to keep up. Assault weapons become fully usable even while maximizing movement. Marines get more firepower at long range on their basic weapons, and generally more ability to move while firing army-wide.

Would that be sufficient to make Marines useful at their current price point?

Honestly it would make sense for them to do that. But what would be the difference between an assault bolter and a regular cawl bolter for intercessors? Would they have differences at all or would it be Assault 4 for the auto bolt rifle, and Assault 2 for the regular cawl bolter?

But rules make the army not just the weapons.

Marines suffer from LD and low amount of damage output for their points cost.

LD is a huge problem for whom shalt not know any fear. They seem to experience far more than any other army because of how few there are of them and how they are punished for having full squads. Tacticals / Intercessors / Every single squad in the space marine codex a full squad is always above 170 pts +. A Full Terminator Squad is around 400pts. Almost as expensive as a Knight titan, but less wounds, less dakka and less toughness, and a worse invulnerable save.

This exponential increase of unit costs causes entire space marines to be over inflated if they even try to gather entire squads, and there is no benefit or advantage for marines to have full squads other than preventing LD problems.

Space Marines need something that makes you want to drop a 1/4 of your points on a single squad. And gives incentive for you to play small elite armies in general.

Space marines generally suffer from not having enough CP generation.

As a mono army (taking it as a mono army at least) they don't have any benefits specifically for playing by themselves....

I'm telling you, space marines could be a lot better if they had Astartes Upgrades they could select for any squad with the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword (Infantry, Cavalry, Walkers, Bikers only).

Allow marines to pay 1 ppm for an upgrade like +1w/+1a, or +1w/+1s, or +1w/+1t.

They just become functional generalists. None of this would be game breaking. They still drown in volume attacks, they still die just as fast to eldar weapons, they still can't compete with Guard artillery. But the gap would be a lot less.

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm telling you, space marines could be a lot better if they had Astartes Upgrades they could select for any squad with the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword (Infantry, Cavalry, Walkers, Bikers only).

Allow marines to pay 1 ppm for an upgrade like +1w/+1a, or +1w/+1s, or +1w/+1t.

They just become functional generalists. None of this would be game breaking. They still drown in volume attacks, they still die just as fast to eldar weapons, they still can't compete with Guard artillery. But the gap would be a lot less.

You keep reposting the same point and I disagree it becomes an auto include at that point and not really tactically interesting or gives much depth to any space marine army.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm telling you, space marines could be a lot better if they had Astartes Upgrades they could select for any squad with the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword (Infantry, Cavalry, Walkers, Bikers only).

Allow marines to pay 1 ppm for an upgrade like +1w/+1a, or +1w/+1s, or +1w/+1t.

They just become functional generalists. None of this would be game breaking. They still drown in volume attacks, they still die just as fast to eldar weapons, they still can't compete with Guard artillery. But the gap would be a lot less.

You keep reposting the same point and I disagree it becomes an auto include at that point and not really tactically interesting or gives much depth to any space marine army.

It's auto-include the same way combat drugs are auto-include. You still have an intelligent choice to make. You cannot make the case that you'd pick the same upgrade for every squad in your army.

And here's a fun fact.

In 2018 ITC season, space wolves have finished in the top 3 in a major or GT two times. Two. Imperial Guard have 62 times, and various Eldars have over 30 each. Dark Angels are in the exact same boat with two.

These factions are dying, and in need of desperate help. No one plays them anymore and that isn't good for the game.

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm telling you, space marines could be a lot better if they had Astartes Upgrades they could select for any squad with the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword (Infantry, Cavalry, Walkers, Bikers only).

Allow marines to pay 1 ppm for an upgrade like +1w/+1a, or +1w/+1s, or +1w/+1t.

They just become functional generalists. None of this would be game breaking. They still drown in volume attacks, they still die just as fast to eldar weapons, they still can't compete with Guard artillery. But the gap would be a lot less.

At 1ppm, those upgrades are auto-takes, there is no illusion of choice here, you're going to take them on everything all the time every time you can.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Honestly it would make sense for them to do that. But what would be the difference between an assault bolter and a regular cawl bolter for intercessors? Would they have differences at all or would it be Assault 4 for the auto bolt rifle, and Assault 2 for the regular cawl bolter?

But rules make the army not just the weapons.

Marines suffer from LD and low amount of damage output for their points cost.

LD is a huge problem for whom shalt not know any fear. They seem to experience far more than any other army because of how few there are of them and how they are punished for having full squads. Tacticals / Intercessors / Every single squad in the space marine codex a full squad is always above 170 pts +. A Full Terminator Squad is around 400pts. Almost as expensive as a Knight titan, but less wounds, less dakka and less toughness, and a worse invulnerable save.

This exponential increase of unit costs causes entire space marines to be over inflated if they even try to gather entire squads, and there is no benefit or advantage for marines to have full squads other than preventing LD problems.

Space Marines need something that makes you want to drop a 1/4 of your points on a single squad. And gives incentive for you to play small elite armies in general.

Space marines generally suffer from not having enough CP generation.

As a mono army (taking it as a mono army at least) they don't have any benefits specifically for playing by themselves....

I suggested an idea for Marine squads to generate CPs by a sort of test (the bigger the squad the better the chance) but I haven't fully fleshed it out yet. Could be they can try to 'buy back' any CPs used. Again, I haven't thought it all the way through.

About leadership; ATSKNF is fine as is, but rather than coming up with complicated rules to cover the gap...why not just bump up their LD stat? At leadership 8 (Sergeant 9), you'll need to kill at least 4 of them to cause a panic. And that's not even counting the re-roll...

I'll be honest, I don't think the current stats of marines suit them at all. I honestly think that they should have a WS and BS of 2+ for starters. Save 3+ for elite regular humans These are Astartes. But this is just the limits of the D6 system I suppose...

I'd rather save a WS/BS2+ for Terminators.

Until (so never) GW scales the game back to what it was a few editions ago and puts superheavies and the like back to were they belong in Apoc, you can't fix marines or most units for that matter. The game is so lethal and players can bring so much fire power to a game that marines, terminators etc die just as easily as guardsmen or cultists, meaning marines are paying for stats and abilities that they will never get to use.

For power armor to be useful, things that weaken or ignore it need to be rare and costly.

We should try to constructively argue and come up with some well reasoned suggestion to be sent to GW.

Hmm. Good idea. I've tried compiling all the suggestions so far, but they are sorta all over the place.

One group wants primaris stats for all space marines.

Another wants ap-1 for all bolt weapons

Another wants special rules that are meaningful for marines

Others want a point cost reduction for space marines.

Some dont care and call marine players cry babies.

Some argue that we need old abilities to make a return for marines.

Others argue we need 8th to shift focus entirely away from super heavies.

I suggested often in the past a squash of the current line and reducing the line considerably to refocus the space marine miniature line. (Namely to remove excess or randomly added units that have very little to add to the space marine codex, do we really need three separate siege vehicles?)

 Asherian Command wrote:

Others want a point cost reduction for space marines.

This is the only suggestion that has any chance of actually happening.

 Crimson wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Others want a point cost reduction for space marines.

This is the only suggestion that has any chance of actually happening.

Of course or we get a squash of the current miniature line which I wouldn't be against.

Though we might see a second space marine codex that may hopefully refocus marines a bit more as the current codex is all over the place.

We can’t ask them to rewrite 8th...can we?

I love the overall direction of 8th. It’s the scale that’s the problem; the super heavy vehicles and monsters make Infantry mere cannon fodder.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Though we might see a second space marine codex that may hopefully refocus marines a bit more as the current codex is all over the place.

Yes, we either see a new codex or some sort of supplement soon. And it will come with new Primaris units, making a full Primaris army much more viable, and hopefully making marines more competitive. But because a large section of Dakka likes to pretend that the Primaris do not exist, people will keep complaining, and suggesting here things that already exist in the game.

 Crimson wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Though we might see a second space marine codex that may hopefully refocus marines a bit more as the current codex is all over the place.

Yes, we either see a new codex or some sort of supplement soon. And it will come with new Primaris units, making a full Primaris army much more viable, and hopefully making marines more competitive. But because a large section of Dakka likes to pretend that the Primaris do not exist, people will keep complaining, and suggesting here things that already exist in the game.

Honestly I am fine with primaris but rolling all marines into one group is kind of bleh. I am fine with marines having 3 troop choices. its the most they've ever had. The problem is primaris lack options which hopefully they will address and update the current kit to have more armor types and weapon types. No one uses the sniper bolters, the auto bolt rifle is useless outside of deathwatch.

Maybe Stalker boltguns need boosted to full sniper rifle level; mortal wounds and character targeting?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Maybe Stalker boltguns need boosted to full sniper rifle level; mortal wounds and character targeting?

I wouldn't be opposed to it.