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Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Future War Cultist wrote:
Maybe Stalker boltguns need boosted to full sniper rifle level; mortal wounds and character targeting?

Yeah. They got that as a stratagem in Vigilus, but they should just have it as a standard ability. One annoying problem with the Primaris is that along with lacking options (which is understandable as they're new range) many of the options they actually have are non-options. Both the Intercessors and the Hellblasters get to choose from three guns, but one of them is just plain better, so there is really not much point in the other two existing. It is also hilarious because the best ones come in the Dark Imperium set, so there is really no incentive to buy the more expensive multipart kits. Along with a balance fail, that's also a marketing fail.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Crimson wrote:
 Future War Cultist wrote:
Maybe Stalker boltguns need boosted to full sniper rifle level; mortal wounds and character targeting?

Yeah. They got that as a stratagem in Vigilus, but they should just have it as a standard ability. One annoying problem with the Primaris is that along with lacking options (which is understandable as they're new range) many of the options they actually have are non-options. Both the Intercessors and the Hellblasters get to choose from three guns, but one of them is just plain better, so there is really not much point in the other two existing. It is also hilarious because the best ones come in the Dark Imperium set, so there is really no incentive to buy the more expensive multipart kits. Along with a balance fail, that's also a marketing fail.


I am surprised they didn't have a massive grav gun version of hellblasters, or melta gun variants. Would at least distinguish them a small amount.... Hellblasters and Intercessors i just use the same guys don't even change out the guns/parts cause they look near identical.

Primaris feel half baked, and these different 'versions' are so lackluster in comparison to one another is negligible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/08 21:35:46


Ah, Sir, a novel is a mirror carried along a high road. At one moment it reflects to your vision the azure skies, at another the mire of the puddles at your feet. And the man who carries this mirror in his pack will be accused by you of being immoral! His mirror shews the mire, and you blame the mirror! Rather blame that high road upon which the puddle lies, still more the inspector of roads who allows the water to gather and the puddle to form. -- The Red and the Black by Stendhal -

laem yreve retfa hsurb dna ,selbategev ruoy taE


A closed mouth catches no flies.
Miguel de Cervantes 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






 Asherian Command wrote:
 Future War Cultist wrote:
Maybe Stalker boltguns need boosted to full sniper rifle level; mortal wounds and character targeting?


I wouldn't be opposed to it.


It gives them a real purpose. Right now, they’re just an ever slightly more powerful bolt rifle that is less mobile. With sniper rules, they become character/big game hunters.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

 Future War Cultist wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
 Future War Cultist wrote:
Maybe Stalker boltguns need boosted to full sniper rifle level; mortal wounds and character targeting?


I wouldn't be opposed to it.


It gives them a real purpose. Right now, they’re just an ever slightly more powerful bolt rifle that is less mobile. With sniper rules, they become character/big game hunters.


Oh no i agree, i think any intercessors that take it should be able to take camo cloaks as well so they can be the 'recon' teams.


Ah, Sir, a novel is a mirror carried along a high road. At one moment it reflects to your vision the azure skies, at another the mire of the puddles at your feet. And the man who carries this mirror in his pack will be accused by you of being immoral! His mirror shews the mire, and you blame the mirror! Rather blame that high road upon which the puddle lies, still more the inspector of roads who allows the water to gather and the puddle to form. -- The Red and the Black by Stendhal -

laem yreve retfa hsurb dna ,selbategev ruoy taE


A closed mouth catches no flies.
Miguel de Cervantes 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Crimson wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:

Though we might see a second space marine codex that may hopefully refocus marines a bit more as the current codex is all over the place.

Yes, we either see a new codex or some sort of supplement soon. And it will come with new Primaris units, making a full Primaris army much more viable, and hopefully making marines more competitive. But because a large section of Dakka likes to pretend that the Primaris do not exist, people will keep complaining, and suggesting here things that already exist in the game.

I think the issue stems from Primaris not having a lot of selections but a lot of it still being stronger than collections that are already built.

I had the disprivelage of having my armies destroyed, so it's easy for me to start over and find a way to incorporate Primaris stat lines into my army (I bought like 15 Mk3 Boarding Shield Marines for my stand-in Intercessors because I obsess only over Mk5 and below), but I don't know why other people won't do the same.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:

Though we might see a second space marine codex that may hopefully refocus marines a bit more as the current codex is all over the place.

Yes, we either see a new codex or some sort of supplement soon. And it will come with new Primaris units, making a full Primaris army much more viable, and hopefully making marines more competitive. But because a large section of Dakka likes to pretend that the Primaris do not exist, people will keep complaining, and suggesting here things that already exist in the game.

I think the issue stems from Primaris not having a lot of selections but a lot of it still being stronger than collections that are already built.

I had the disprivelage of having my armies destroyed, so it's easy for me to start over and find a way to incorporate Primaris stat lines into my army (I bought like 15 Mk3 Boarding Shield Marines for my stand-in Intercessors because I obsess only over Mk5 and below), but I don't know why other people won't do the same.


I've had a few purists yell at me for having regular marines instead of the primaris models. Or doing conversions of existing models or kitbashes because i didn't like the look of certain models (Hellblasters / aggressors)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/08 23:12:43


Ah, Sir, a novel is a mirror carried along a high road. At one moment it reflects to your vision the azure skies, at another the mire of the puddles at your feet. And the man who carries this mirror in his pack will be accused by you of being immoral! His mirror shews the mire, and you blame the mirror! Rather blame that high road upon which the puddle lies, still more the inspector of roads who allows the water to gather and the puddle to form. -- The Red and the Black by Stendhal -

laem yreve retfa hsurb dna ,selbategev ruoy taE


A closed mouth catches no flies.
Miguel de Cervantes 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






The only snipers I have interest in is the skitarii rifles, at least they are strength 7

Besides GW wouldn't give us the option to make recon teams when they can make a specific unit with cloaks. At least that's what the cynic in me thinks

I think stalker bolt rifle just need the sniper rules naturally. I'd say make them heavy 2 but I'm not sure if that would defeat the standard bolt rifle. At least there'd be a choice to make instead of going for the standard issue.

The auto variant is a joke, sure you can advance and shoot but once you're within 15" the standard is better. Maybe just go assault 3 for that one?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Asherian Command wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:

Though we might see a second space marine codex that may hopefully refocus marines a bit more as the current codex is all over the place.

Yes, we either see a new codex or some sort of supplement soon. And it will come with new Primaris units, making a full Primaris army much more viable, and hopefully making marines more competitive. But because a large section of Dakka likes to pretend that the Primaris do not exist, people will keep complaining, and suggesting here things that already exist in the game.

I think the issue stems from Primaris not having a lot of selections but a lot of it still being stronger than collections that are already built.

I had the disprivelage of having my armies destroyed, so it's easy for me to start over and find a way to incorporate Primaris stat lines into my army (I bought like 15 Mk3 Boarding Shield Marines for my stand-in Intercessors because I obsess only over Mk5 and below), but I don't know why other people won't do the same.


I've had a few purists yell at me for having regular marines instead of the primaris models. Or doing conversions of existing models or kitbashes because i didn't like the look of certain models (Hellblasters / aggressors)

If they're distinctive enough I think you would be fine. Nothing else would carry a boarding shield and Bolter though, so it makes sense to me

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






 fraser1191 wrote:
The auto variant is a joke, sure you can advance and shoot but once you're within 15" the standard is better. Maybe just go assault 3 for that one?


Yeah, I think 3 shots is needed there. Otherwise the regular bolt rifle has it beat. There’s precedent too. I think Skitarrii Vanguards radium jezzils are assault 3 aren’t they?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Oh no i agree, i think any intercessors that take it should be able to take camo cloaks as well so they can be the 'recon' teams.


Nice! Yeah I could see that!

This whole discussion has made me realise something though; no matter how many options a unit has, people will always gravitate towards the best one, and because of wysiwyg, they’ll be assembled with said option, meaning that the others will never get a look in. Sort of a waste in a way.
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Future War Cultist wrote:

Yeah, I think 3 shots is needed there. Otherwise the regular bolt rifle has it beat. There’s precedent too. I think Skitarrii Vanguards radium jezzils are assault 3 aren’t they?

The problem is that then it beats the regular one even at rapid fire range (3 shot auto would be better against guard and equal against marines in such a situation.) I have actually thought about these weapons quite a bit and done math with various fix attempts, and pretty much always one of them just ends up better. They have such a similar role that it is nigh impossible for this not to happen. Perhaps they should just accept this, and make one of the loadouts some sort of Primaris Sternguard that just have flat out better, but more expensive weapons. Visually the auto rifle would communicate that well, I think.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 fraser1191 wrote:
The only snipers I have interest in is the skitarii rifles, at least they are strength 7

Besides GW wouldn't give us the option to make recon teams when they can make a specific unit with cloaks. At least that's what the cynic in me thinks

I think stalker bolt rifle just need the sniper rules naturally. I'd say make them heavy 2 but I'm not sure if that would defeat the standard bolt rifle. At least there'd be a choice to make instead of going for the standard issue.

The auto variant is a joke, sure you can advance and shoot but once you're within 15" the standard is better. Maybe just go assault 3 for that one?

The Assault one makes sense for Deathwatch at least.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






 Future War Cultist wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
The auto variant is a joke, sure you can advance and shoot but once you're within 15" the standard is better. Maybe just go assault 3 for that one?


Yeah, I think 3 shots is needed there. Otherwise the regular bolt rifle has it beat. There’s precedent too. I think Skitarrii Vanguards radium jezzils are assault 3 aren’t they?


Heavy 2 but the striders have a stratagem to more or less fire heavy at no penalty IIRC. I was referring to the arquebus, which is H1 S7 - 2 D3 damage and can target characters and does extra MW on 6s. This this is fearsome. I've been able to "lock down" areas from getting character support with these.

And Slayer Deathwatch is the exception lol
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 fraser1191 wrote:
 Future War Cultist wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
The auto variant is a joke, sure you can advance and shoot but once you're within 15" the standard is better. Maybe just go assault 3 for that one?


Yeah, I think 3 shots is needed there. Otherwise the regular bolt rifle has it beat. There’s precedent too. I think Skitarrii Vanguards radium jezzils are assault 3 aren’t they?


Heavy 2 but the striders have a stratagem to more or less fire heavy at no penalty IIRC. I was referring to the arquebus, which is H1 S7 - 2 D3 damage and can target characters and does extra MW on 6s. This this is fearsome. I've been able to "lock down" areas from getting character support with these.

And Slayer Deathwatch is the exception lol

Use those Skitarii in groups of 10 for most efficient use of the Strategem. Get near a reroll epicentre and you're good to go.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy



UK

Can't remember if I suggested it here or elsewhere, but why not just let a ten man tac squad take two special and two heavy weapons? You don't have to mess with their points at all and you partly solve one of the major issues people have in the form of their offensive weakness.

If you mention second edition 40k I will find you, and I will bore you to tears talking about how "things were better in my day, let me tell ya..." Might even do it if you mention 4th/5th/6th WHFB 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




bouncingboredom wrote:
Can't remember if I suggested it here or elsewhere, but why not just let a ten man tac squad take two special and two heavy weapons? You don't have to mess with their points at all and you partly solve one of the major issues people have in the form of their offensive weakness.

I've been hammering my idea of 2 Special 1 Heavy or 2 Heavy 1 Special as a way to sorta specialize but keep them unique compared to how other troop choices do it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bouncingboredom wrote:
Can't remember if I suggested it here or elsewhere, but why not just let a ten man tac squad take two special and two heavy weapons? You don't have to mess with their points at all and you partly solve one of the major issues people have in the form of their offensive weakness.

I've been hammering my idea of 2 Special 1 Heavy or 2 Heavy 1 Special as a way to sorta specialize but keep them unique compared to how other troop choices do it.


I'd like the two specials. Two plasma or flamers and a matching combi gives them a good boost in fire power.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bouncingboredom wrote:
Can't remember if I suggested it here or elsewhere, but why not just let a ten man tac squad take two special and two heavy weapons? You don't have to mess with their points at all and you partly solve one of the major issues people have in the form of their offensive weakness.

I've been hammering my idea of 2 Special 1 Heavy or 2 Heavy 1 Special as a way to sorta specialize but keep them unique compared to how other troop choices do it.


I'd like the two specials. Two plasma or flamers and a matching combi gives them a good boost in fire power.


The elephant in the room is whether or not space marines should get a reward for having full squads like ORKS. Giving them more cohesion or a squad ability might be useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
bouncingboredom wrote:
Can't remember if I suggested it here or elsewhere, but why not just let a ten man tac squad take two special and two heavy weapons? You don't have to mess with their points at all and you partly solve one of the major issues people have in the form of their offensive weakness.


Yeah problem here is that then that tactical squad would be around 180 - 190pts. For 10 models. Thats crazy.


That squad better come with some more than two special weapons and have something to boot that increases in offensive or defensive power.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/09 22:07:23


Ah, Sir, a novel is a mirror carried along a high road. At one moment it reflects to your vision the azure skies, at another the mire of the puddles at your feet. And the man who carries this mirror in his pack will be accused by you of being immoral! His mirror shews the mire, and you blame the mirror! Rather blame that high road upon which the puddle lies, still more the inspector of roads who allows the water to gather and the puddle to form. -- The Red and the Black by Stendhal -

laem yreve retfa hsurb dna ,selbategev ruoy taE


A closed mouth catches no flies.
Miguel de Cervantes 
   
Made in gb
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols






 Crimson wrote:
The problem is that then it beats the regular one even at rapid fire range (3 shot auto would be better against guard and equal against marines in such a situation.) I have actually thought about these weapons quite a bit and done math with various fix attempts, and pretty much always one of them just ends up better. They have such a similar role that it is nigh impossible for this not to happen. Perhaps they should just accept this, and make one of the loadouts some sort of Primaris Sternguard that just have flat out better, but more expensive weapons. Visually the auto rifle would communicate that well, I think.


Yep, very true. It's like I said earlier, there will always be one option that's the best hands down, and people will always gravitate towards it, rendering the others useless and unused, thanks to wysiwyg. It's like you might as well just have the one weapon option to begin with.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






Problem right now is that you pay extra points for variant that's inferior. I'm fine with paying more points for something that is better
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

Neither of the bolter options are unique, the normal regular bolter is already better just based on stats.


Ah, Sir, a novel is a mirror carried along a high road. At one moment it reflects to your vision the azure skies, at another the mire of the puddles at your feet. And the man who carries this mirror in his pack will be accused by you of being immoral! His mirror shews the mire, and you blame the mirror! Rather blame that high road upon which the puddle lies, still more the inspector of roads who allows the water to gather and the puddle to form. -- The Red and the Black by Stendhal -

laem yreve retfa hsurb dna ,selbategev ruoy taE


A closed mouth catches no flies.
Miguel de Cervantes 
   
Made in gb
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy



UK

 Asherian Command wrote:
That squad better come with some more than two special weapons and have something to boot that increases in offensive or defensive power.
They would have the option of taking two heavy and two specials (2 combis perhaps?). That's what would make them tactically flexible, the ability to dish out punishment at range and up close, the ability to have strong anti-vehicle and anti-hoarde capabilities, or the ability to tool up quite heavily for certain tasks, before you even start with combat squadding. This may not be the ideal solution, but it strikes me as one that can be done with every little disruption to the rest of the game.

Though of course this argument, like most I see about Marines, presumes that there aren't major issues with game at is functional level which make tinkering around the edges of certain units ultimately a little pointless.

If you mention second edition 40k I will find you, and I will bore you to tears talking about how "things were better in my day, let me tell ya..." Might even do it if you mention 4th/5th/6th WHFB 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

bouncingboredom wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
That squad better come with some more than two special weapons and have something to boot that increases in offensive or defensive power.
They would have the option of taking two heavy and two specials (2 combis perhaps?). That's what would make them tactically flexible, the ability to dish out punishment at range and up close, the ability to have strong anti-vehicle and anti-hoarde capabilities, or the ability to tool up quite heavily for certain tasks, before you even start with combat squadding. This may not be the ideal solution, but it strikes me as one that can be done with every little disruption to the rest of the game.

Though of course this argument, like most I see about Marines, presumes that there aren't major issues with game at is functional level which make tinkering around the edges of certain units ultimately a little pointless.


Problem with that is just how expensive of a points cost that would be, if we took two plasma guns and two combis that is 44 points. Thats 174 not including the sgt's own combi weapon that would be 185 for 5 plasma.

Ah, Sir, a novel is a mirror carried along a high road. At one moment it reflects to your vision the azure skies, at another the mire of the puddles at your feet. And the man who carries this mirror in his pack will be accused by you of being immoral! His mirror shews the mire, and you blame the mirror! Rather blame that high road upon which the puddle lies, still more the inspector of roads who allows the water to gather and the puddle to form. -- The Red and the Black by Stendhal -

laem yreve retfa hsurb dna ,selbategev ruoy taE


A closed mouth catches no flies.
Miguel de Cervantes 
   
Made in it
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity




Italy

Is 185 points for 5 plasmas really expensive? 10 shots at BS3+ maybe with also some re-rolls thanks to characters you may want anyway?

10 tankbustas cost 170 points at BS5+ with re-rolls against vehicles and DDD which basically put them at being BS4+ or slightly above that (only if they target vehicles) and they are considered amazing. Of course still t-shirt save 17ppm dudes.

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Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Tankbustas are amazing because they're the Ork answer to Knights, which is currently the meta-threat to counter. Plasma guns won't do more than tickle a Knight. You can't just look at the number of shots and completely ignore the rest of the differences between the weapons.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
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Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity




Italy

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tankbustas are amazing because they're the Ork answer to Knights, which is currently the meta-threat to counter. Plasma guns won't do more than tickle a Knight. You can't just look at the number of shots and completely ignore the rest of the differences between the weapons.


There are at least half the factions that can't have knights in their lists. You're also assuming that every imperium player uses knights.

Tankbustas' rokkits are S8 AP-2 D3 mounted on T4 6+ save 17ppm models.

The real answer orks have to imperial knights is to bring all T4 6+ and T2 no save dudes other than characters. Tipycally competitive ork players don't bother killing knights, they focus on scoring and killing the rest of the army. Good luck killing a castellan with tankbustas. Even with the max squad of 315 points (15 bustas + 6 bomb squigs) and 6 CPs to let them deep strike, generating more shots and firing twice (tellyporta, more dakka, showing off) you should strip just half the wounds off a castellan and the unit dies the subsequent turn just by a volley of bolters or lasguns.

If you compare those 185 points of plasma dudes with 180 of bustas (10 of them + 1 bomb squig) you'll notice that there isn't that much difference in terms of killyness. The SM should be more deadly actually. Against monsters and characters there's even no contest here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 12:31:35


Orks 9000
Space Wolves 6500
Drukhari 4500 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




how about giving marines some non weapon upgrades. Maybe a junior apothecary to give boost them in some way. Or guys carrying portable shields to boost their save when they don't move. Or like someone said give cloaks to reapers, if they can't have special or melee weapons.

If the upgrades were costed in a crazy maner aka not free, but also not 80pts, it could give birth to some new ways to use certain units without invalidating older ways to play. And it could be done to both primaris and normal marines. Maybe the bigger primaris could just carry bigger or more stuff, or maybe they would be more specilised as in only get 1 "specialist" while normal tacticals could have two.
   
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Eastern CT

bouncingboredom wrote:Can't remember if I suggested it here or elsewhere, but why not just let a ten man tac squad take two special and two heavy weapons? You don't have to mess with their points at all and you partly solve one of the major issues people have in the form of their offensive weakness.


The problem there is that the 10 man squad still only uses one detachment slot. Marine players struggle to fill out enough detachments to gain needed CP as it is. No one is going to more than double their required investment in a Troops slot for such a modest increase in offensive output when they could get almost the same amount of offense from two 5-man squads and fill two detachment slots.

Blackie wrote:

If you compare those 185 points of plasma dudes with 180 of bustas (10 of them + 1 bomb squig) you'll notice that there isn't that much difference in terms of killyness. The SM should be more deadly actually. Against monsters and characters there's even no contest here.


The difference there is Tankbustas are not a Troops choice (to the best of my knowledge anyway - traditionally they have not been). Orks can fill their Troops slots with cheap and useful squads of Gretchin, which can increase the durability of the Tankbustas by taking hits for them

And also vs Knights, the difference in durability between a SM Tac Squad and a similar size squad of Ork Tankbustas is minimal. Anything Knights throw at Space Marines is apt to mostly or entirely deny them their saves anyway, and their Toughness is the same. If anything, the Orks are more durable because they can exploit Gretchin to take hits for them, and Gretchin are cheap.

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"If you compare those 185 points of plasma dudes with 180 of bustas (10 of them + 1 bomb squig) you'll notice that there isn't that much difference in terms of killyness. The SM should be more deadly actually. Against monsters and characters there's even no contest here."

Wait a second. You're concerned that 10 T4 3+ models only do roughly the same damage as 11 T4 6+ models vs the ideal target for the latter unit?
   
Made in ca
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






If marines have such a hard time filling lists why not make Devs and ASMs troops like they were in whichever previous edition.

Give each one a special rule(devs already have the signum) and filling slots is suddenly easy
   
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Chicago, Illinois

 fraser1191 wrote:
If marines have such a hard time filling lists why not make Devs and ASMs troops like they were in whichever previous edition.

Give each one a special rule(devs already have the signum) and filling slots is suddenly easy


Or you make the core troop choices (intercessors) count as two troop choices when they are 10 mans and make it so combat squads fills that role it wants to so desperately wants to be. Its all there GW has decided not to use it.

Then give an added bonus for having 10 per a squad. Not just more special weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 16:33:09


Ah, Sir, a novel is a mirror carried along a high road. At one moment it reflects to your vision the azure skies, at another the mire of the puddles at your feet. And the man who carries this mirror in his pack will be accused by you of being immoral! His mirror shews the mire, and you blame the mirror! Rather blame that high road upon which the puddle lies, still more the inspector of roads who allows the water to gather and the puddle to form. -- The Red and the Black by Stendhal -

laem yreve retfa hsurb dna ,selbategev ruoy taE


A closed mouth catches no flies.
Miguel de Cervantes 
   
 
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