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I can easily see where Blackie is coming from (and on a side note that is an incredibly awkward forum handle to have to put in a sentence) about mixing Ork Clans even without being all that familiar with them, because I've found myself doing the same thing with Marine chapters to maximize different elements. If I'm putting a Smash Captain and Vanguards in a list then that detachment is going to be Raven Guard so I can use their combination of advanced move, relic Jump Pack, and warlord trait to get first-turn charges off that also deny overwatch, but the rest of the list is likely going to be Imperial Fist because we use the Cities of Death rules all the time and Marine shooting is even less effective than normal if you don't deny cover saves.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's an interesting conclusion to reach in light of the fact that Orks are outperforming Space Marines overall.

Top orks lists vs top SM lists maybe. I'm still waiting to see those unstoppable top tier orks.

Otherwise SM can absolutely compete. Lists with top SM chapters can be way more powerful than orks lists with the worse clans, but SM should also have reasonably fair matches even against single clans lists, even the better ones like evil sunz.

 Blackie wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's an interesting conclusion to reach in light of the fact that Orks are outperforming Space Marines overall.

Top orks lists vs top SM lists maybe. I'm still waiting to see those unstoppable top tier orks.

Otherwise SM can absolutely compete. Lists with top SM chapters can be way more powerful than orks lists with the worse clans, but SM should also have reasonably fair matches even against single clans lists, even the better ones like evil sunz.

I'm still waiting to see that Orks are outperforming power armour armies, because last I checked a number of what I would define as space marine armies had better records in the ITC than Orks.

Granted, this was in November but as far as I'm aware there aren't many events for Orks to win, and thus jump ahead in December.

It's a single event, but orks did way better than power armor at glass city GT.

We already know that Index Orks ran circles around the worse Chapters. How are low-tier Klan Orks suddenly as bad as them? Because Boyz went up by one point?

Orks will wreck vanilla marines. Maybe not a girlyman list tailored to kill hordes.

A 25 man bad moonz loota unit will out shoot anything marines have and are hard to kill.

Da Jump Boyz will overwhelm parts of the board while more advance.

Dakkajet bad moons air wings will clean up a lot of infantry too

The problems with Marines are basically that the system favors hordes over elite armies, and that players have to expect to be able to deal with Titanic units.

The system favoring hordes creates a problem because being able to throw enough dice to deal with hordes of cheap troopers also works just fine against smaller numbers of more expensive troopers, as long as those troopers are single-wound models. GW could address the situation by increasing the number of wounds higher-point models have, but thus haven't been willing to do so in any meaningful way. Decreasing the points of more elite troopers is another way to address the problem, but essentially makes them less elite. It compresses the difference between a Guardsman and a Space Marine.

Thinking outside the box a little, the problem could be addressed by having a mechanic whereby cheap horde units take more damage from weapons because they are cheap horde units. Add to the main rules a keyword and the following rule:

Cannon Fodder: For every two wounds a unit with this keyword suffers, the unit takes an additional wound with AP equal to the AP of the majority of the wounds inflicted on the unit that phase

Then give that keyword to every unit that costs less than, say, 9 points per model (pulled that number more or less out of thin air). Cheap horde units would then die faster than more elite units without upping the volume of attacks that individual weapons or unit have, which would make it easier to countermeasure cheap horde units without also unduly negatively impacting more elite units.

Having Titanic units in the system is bad for all vehicles because if one has sufficient firepower to knock down a Knight in a single turn, one will have no problem against a Land Raider or a Predator. The solution for this could be fairly simple - give all Titanic units the following rule:

Broad Side of a Barn: Due to the sheer size of this unit, all shooting targeting this unit gains +1 to hit.

Make Titanic units easier to hit, and one doesn't need so many vehicle-killing weapons to kill them. Lessen the number of vehicle-killing weapons needed to kill Titanic units, and non-Titanic vehicles (and monsters for that matter) become more survivable.

The general hitting, wounding and damaging rules lead to the fact that most 'anti-horde' weapons are point-by-point far more effective against elite infantry than actual hordes.

Titanic units would not be huge problem if vehicle points in general were scaled proportionally, the cheap relatively weak vehicles should be made cheaper because of the firepower creep.

Weapons in general need to be forced into more specialised roles, currently one can relatively easily mass enough firepower that can shoot down a Knight in one turn (like 30-40% of opponents army) while they can equally well destroy 4-5 rhinos. There is a disconnect here. If the weapons were more specialised the knight destroying lists would lose to massed cheap vehicles.
Now we get back to the poorly differentiated damaging rules and weaponry rules, so most effective way to destroy anything is combination of high volume shots, medium-high strength (S5-8) and medium AP (-1 or -2) weaponry. And of course long range. If the units, weaponry and core rules were better designed there would not be this sort of spammable middle ground.
Few quick solutions:
Make many currently T 7 or T 8 vehicles to go to far higher toughness values (T 10-12, even 14), while increasing Strength of clearly AT weapons (Lascannons, Meltaguns and similar). Amount of wounds can be then rescaled to proportionally lower values.
Make 2+ save on vehicles be more common and introduce 1+ or even 0+ save on vehicles, so it's actually impenetrable by AP 0 weapons and not so much affected by low AP values.

Introduce actually anti-horde weapons with appropriate rules that are not so good against 'elite' infantry and vehicles, and force cheap model units to have much larger minimum unit size. I mean come on, units costing below 50 points shouldn't even exist. All sorts of cheap units enable spamming and CP batteries currently. You see spamming of cheapest possible troop choices all over if you go through competitive lists.

You mean like the old rules where most vehicles could ignore normal infantry weapons?

 Asherian Command wrote:
You mean like the old rules where most vehicles could ignore normal infantry weapons?

Yeah. Still getting nightmares about those. /sarcasm

Ghorgul wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
You mean like the old rules where most vehicles could ignore normal infantry weapons?

Yeah. Still getting nightmares about those. /sarcasm

I mean it makes sense a simple lasgun even if it got really lucky would barely glance a warlord titan or a land raider. In older rules at least my land raider could outright ignore bolters and heavy stubbers.

cmspano wrote:
Orks will wreck vanilla marines. Maybe not a girlyman list tailored to kill hordes.

A 25 man bad moonz loota unit will out shoot anything marines have and are hard to kill.

Da Jump Boyz will overwhelm parts of the board while more advance.

Dakkajet bad moons air wings will clean up a lot of infantry too

Orks are a problem for marines in general right now. The amount of buffs they stack on boyz for a negligible price makes them surprisingly durable.

Marines seem like the only faction that is priced with their buffs factored in.

And people screamed bloody murder back when we suggested Boyz might have to go up in points...

cmspano wrote:
Orks will wreck vanilla marines. Maybe not a girlyman list tailored to kill hordes.

A 25 man bad moonz loota unit will out shoot anything marines have and are hard to kill.

Da Jump Boyz will overwhelm parts of the board while more advance.

Dakkajet bad moons air wings will clean up a lot of infantry too

400 points less of toys so you can reroll 2's and 3's to wound in most cases is not worth it. Unbuffed DW vets actaully outperform a gman buffed list. LET THAT SINK IN A BIT.

A punisher tank commander averages a wiped ork boys unit. Show me any 200 point unit in the marine codex that can compete with that while being buffed by a 400 point unit? Youll struggle because nothing even comes close. Good luck even getting 49 shots for those points. Plus lets not forget - 3 punisher russ commanders costs as much as your trash combo. Plus it probably has better defensive stats too. Realistically - GMAN is trash. Paying for his buff is not worth it. It's only in combat where he shines because he has the stats that matters (3++ and resurection AT THE END OF THE PHASE and deals mortal wounds). Now that Clagar has been super buffed their is little reason to even run guilliman.

Lets get back to the core issue of the power armor problem.

You pay more points - to do less damage - and the only defense you get can be compeltely ignored. Meanwhile. Orks have a 5++ aura with 6+ FNP bubbles and they don't really even pay for it. Which has the durability problem?

 Marmatag wrote:

cmspano wrote:
Orks will wreck vanilla marines. Maybe not a girlyman list tailored to kill hordes.

A 25 man bad moonz loota unit will out shoot anything marines have and are hard to kill.

Da Jump Boyz will overwhelm parts of the board while more advance.

Dakkajet bad moons air wings will clean up a lot of infantry too

Orks are a problem for marines in general right now. The amount of buffs they stack on boyz for a negligible price makes them surprisingly durable.

Marines seem like the only faction that is priced with their buffs factored in.

Csm have the same situation, additionally to priced in stratagems.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

cmspano wrote:
Orks will wreck vanilla marines. Maybe not a girlyman list tailored to kill hordes.

A 25 man bad moonz loota unit will out shoot anything marines have and are hard to kill.

Da Jump Boyz will overwhelm parts of the board while more advance.

Dakkajet bad moons air wings will clean up a lot of infantry too

Orks are a problem for marines in general right now. The amount of buffs they stack on boyz for a negligible price makes them surprisingly durable.

Marines seem like the only faction that is priced with their buffs factored in.

Csm have the same situation, additionally to priced in stratagems.

The baked in pricing is only for a few units (Obliterators, Terminators, and Cultists), but yes I agree it's absolute crap. Strategems need to be balanced and priced around units, NOT the other way around. That kinda pricing bleeds into anything not marked Slaanesh automatically and makes them weaker.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
We already know that Index Orks ran circles around the worse Chapters. How are low-tier Klan Orks suddenly as bad as them? Because Boyz went up by one point?

Only a single list at index times could do that. And tipycally just in 3 turns games.

The unfortunate thing is that 3+Save discussions always descend into why does codex * astartes suck.

But it's not just astartes that suck, a number of infantry with 3+ saves also suck/sucked, primarily IMHO because GWwas/is still pricing 3+ saves like it's previous editions.

CA2018 took yet more points of the cost of numerous 3+ save units, crisis suits, Sisters of Silence, anything primaris for a second time., necrons. SoB beta codex sounds like it might need points cost reductions already.

The problem is that over paying for that 3+, means you have less models who arn't as durable as equivalent points of chaff.
That extra cost reduces your model count, which also reduces your firepower. That's the set up for a perfect storm of never going to work unit imbalance.

You have the same points, less firepower, lower durability, loose a higher percentage of the firepower you do have when taking casualties, and kill less than the enemy.
Over multiple turns that fight just keeps getting more one sided, instead of it being close untill you whittle down the enemy and the odds turn infavour of the elite models. it actually just makes it favour the hoards more with every turn.

But if they are less durable, then why doesn't GW just make marines more deadly in shoting and melee. Right now if anything marine gets really efficient at killing other armies, GW nerfs it in the next FAQ or CA.

Karol wrote:
But if they are less durable, then why doesn't GW just make marines more deadly in shoting and melee. Right now if anything marine gets really efficient at killing other armies, GW nerfs it in the next FAQ or CA.

Yeah, good point. I’d rather marines were jacked up in power to better suit their current points costs rather than simply having their points reduced to match their current ability. Make them actual killing machines. You’ve all seen that fan made Astrates animation doing the rounds? Make the rules reflect what that animation shows; marines as unstoppable tanks that shred through common infantry like a knife through butter.

I’ve always felt that a single tactical squad (and now, intercessors) should be the equivalent or near equivalent of a full sized IG infantry platoon in terms of firepower and durability. Even that underplays their fluff power, but I’m trying to be realistic.

Ice_can wrote:
The unfortunate thing is that 3+Save discussions always descend into why does codex * astartes suck.

But it's not just astartes that suck, a number of infantry with 3+ saves also suck/sucked, primarily IMHO because GWwas/is still pricing 3+ saves like it's previous editions.

Not entirely true, GW basically prices all the armor saves on infantriy dudes like it's previous editions. Guardsmen used to get no save at all against several anti infantry weapons, now they have a 5+, so other 5+ save dudes. And yet they didn't have a price hike. Even a +1ppm for guardsmen wouldn't reflect how their save works in this edition, that +1 would be a fix against the fact that S3 weapons now can wound anything and their cheap troop role to dispose of CPs. To make a fair comparison between previous edition guardsmen and current ones they should be 7ppm, which never gonna happen (sadly).

Orks became 7ppm not because their 6+ now actually matters against most anti infantry weapons, but because boyz now have a free melta bomb every 10 models. They certainly deserved to be 7ppm even without that bomb (which adds nothing most of the times) though as their save now is actually a real save.

I also disagree that GW should make them more deadly in shooting, as they already have a good firepower, they totally lack melee though and that's mostly because they lack synergies between the melee units, the units' auras and the codex shenanigans.

It's also obvious that high amor save dudes suffer from a meta that is awfully anti tank oriented. Super heroes and super heavies that are so good and underpriced make marines less effective. When I play with my competitive group of friends we tend to avoid soups and Lows if we play purely TAC lists, and SM perform certainly better under these conditions, by a significant margin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Future War Cultist wrote:


I’ve always felt that a single tactical squad (and now, intercessors) should be the equivalent or near equivalent of a full sized IG infantry platoon in terms of firepower and durability. Even that underplays their fluff power, but I’m trying to be realistic.

I agree about tacs, not intercessors. IMHO the min squad of the basic troops should have a similar cost for each army in the game. Of course some of them would be 5 models, others would be 10. Only extremely squishy dudes should be cheaper, like gretchins (T2 no save).

5 Tacs should cost like 10 guardsmen or 10 orks. Unfortunately it's 65 points, 40 points, 70 points instead which isn't fair at all. Guardsmen at 7ppm would fix the issue as 10 guardsmen are really equal to 5 tacs, if not even better.

They would really have to make marines god like in melee to balance how much they cost vs what they face in melee. Right now there are two things marines will melee against. Super melee units, that just stomp them dead or huge units of chaffs they can't clear. A marine would have to be something like 4A each or get multiple melee upgrades for free to be able to deal with those.
Melee only units marines have have to be smash capt tier to be considered being worth taking. The rest like termintors, primaris or assault space marines are never taken. That is why I think it would be easier for GW to buff marine shoting with an extra rule or two, then reworking the whole space marine brand to make it better at assault. Also GW seems to over price marine melee stuff, just look at GK, each one has melee weapon. they should be great, but GW costed them at least 5 more then what they should cost, with the other limitations they have.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

cmspano wrote:
Orks will wreck vanilla marines. Maybe not a girlyman list tailored to kill hordes.

A 25 man bad moonz loota unit will out shoot anything marines have and are hard to kill.

Da Jump Boyz will overwhelm parts of the board while more advance.

Dakkajet bad moons air wings will clean up a lot of infantry too

Orks are a problem for marines in general right now. The amount of buffs they stack on boyz for a negligible price makes them surprisingly durable.

Marines seem like the only faction that is priced with their buffs factored in.

Csm have the same situation, additionally to priced in stratagems.

The baked in pricing is only for a few units (Obliterators, Terminators, and Cultists), but yes I agree it's absolute crap. Strategems need to be balanced and priced around units, NOT the other way around. That kinda pricing bleeds into anything not marked Slaanesh automatically and makes them weaker.

It's not just the stratagems that suddenly get for some reason priced in, take a look at the Heavy and special weapon prices. They all need to be priced around full rerolls, that is a issue, because most of these weapons are just worth it for these specific , often times requiring a special Charachter, builds. Guiliman and Abbadon single handedly keep the prices of these so high, that you still pay (often overpay) more for these weapons than they are worth without these charachters. This is an issue, and personally the reroll auras should just go imo, since they lead to.

Congalines (special thanks to abbadon and Cultists)
Higher prices for all other subfactions which potentially could profit from more equipment but now get outpriced
Terrible to watch bubble shenanigans.

cut the prices on all reroll auras (make them specific targetable for 1-2 units at a time) and lower the prices on charachters and weaponry.
that then would seriously give us a more even playing field, to even start a discussion around marines and Chaos marines.

They would have zero reason to price synergies into certain units if all the buff auras and boost stratagems were more specific. Currently almost everyone and their dog can have 'Slaanesh' keyword so almost every infantry unit can shoot twice with stratagem, with CSM obviously. But then when we go look at the actual units: Terminator squad is the only one that can scale to ridiculous amounts, deep-striking in 10 combi-plasma terminators and then shooting twice with them together with VotLW. All the other units (Noise Marines, Chosen, Havocs) don't scale upwards because they have hard 2/4/5 limit in special/heavy weapons. Obliterators don't scale up much because unit of 3 is maximum one can have.

Re-rolls and other buff auras should be probably be made to target more specific units than just everything with same <Legion> or similar keyword, then there would be less pressure to price the assumed synergies to everything. Also every generic buff aura that affects everything acts as power multiplier. Now what does this mean exactly, lets consider this example: Multiply 2*2 = 4 (2 increase), 10*2 = 20 (10 increase). In both cases we have 100% increase, but in absolute terms first number increased only 20% of the second increase, i.e. bad unit are bad even with multipliers if the same multiplier works with the better units.

All the aura effects that encourage players to build congalines should be removed, this is very gamey element and the most extreme cases just look outright stupid to anyone watching the game. This is also simple, just add 'wholly within' or whatever is the exact terminology they prefer, while increasing the range in some abilities a little.

Buff auras could easily be 0 CP stratagems that are character specific, only practical difference would be better control of aura spamming and stacking and more so less incentive for players to build these huge blobs/stars/fortressess with buff auras.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note that Haarken the Worldclaimer is inherently better designed with his buff aura currently being re-roll melee hits for Black Legion Raptors. This is very specific:

1. Works only in melee.
2. Works only with Black Legion Raptors.

I don't think this aura is good itself, I'm just saying it's designed better IMO. With current rule writing on Haarken the obvious solution to hypothetical BL Haarken Raptor spam combos would be increase price of Haarken, the combo itself is Black Legion specific so there is little reason to increase the price of Raptors, assuming Haarken Raptor combos are the problem, and not the Raptors of various <Legion> keywords.

I find it funny that, in light of the durability issues of power armour in one of the deadliest editions of the game, people are considering the solution to be increasing the lethality of the most commonly played army and whose rules form the foundation of 10 entire factions.

well it is one or the other, I doubt they would do both. Some people seem to see better resiliance as too passive. But while people may disagree on how to fix marines, I think everyone can agree that the way they are priced right now makes no sense at all.

Lemondish wrote:
I find it funny that, in light of the durability issues of power armour in one of the deadliest editions of the game, people are considering the solution to be increasing the lethality of the most commonly played army and whose rules form the foundation of 10 entire factions.

A LOT of people argue for consolidation too, which would help fix a lot of problems in the long run (rules bloat being the worst, to me at least).

Just because marines are the most common doesn't mean they have to suck

 fraser1191 wrote:
Just because marines are the most common doesn't mean they have to suck

Exactly.

Any concenus on rule changes? +1 wound and attack for starters? 2 wound, 2 attack regular marines, 3 wound 3 attack Primarus?

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Just because marines are the most common doesn't mean they have to suck

Exactly.

Any concenus on rule changes? +1 wound and attack for starters? 2 wound, 2 attack regular marines, 3 wound 3 attack Primarus?

Trying to get people to universally agree about something is like herding cats.

Personally I'd bump marines to 15, give them an extra attack and wound, probably the ap-1 to boot. Then so they aren't carbon copies of Primaris I'd have Primaris as S5 T5 with a S5 bolt rifle. Would make things very different from where we currently sit.