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Hi there,

I am in dire need of ideas to counter a Skyweaver spam list that a usual at our local shop runs.

The elements of the list may vary, but what I need help with are 3 units of 6 Syweavers with Haywire cannons (1D6 assault, S4 FP-1, against vehicles causes MW on a 4+ on wounding roll, 1D3 on 6+), and Zephyrglaives (S4 -2 2D, 3 att each). Those bikes have -1 to be shoot, 4++ invul and 3W (why 3 instead of 2 I still do not understand).
They can be buffed with an additional -1 from psychic powers and another from lightning reflexes.
They are good (very good) against tanks and titans, as they ignore armor and invul saves, can move 22" and shoot at 24", and they are no slouch in combat either.

I usually play Imperium, and I am fine facing with all other harlequin units, or Ynnari or whatever, but this one seems like a really hard unit spam to beat.
Rather than just choosing to not play this person as I will likely loose with my usual lists (I don´t like lists that spam the best unit just for winning chances if it may take fun from the game), I would like to make one with something that could counter his spam if he took my call for a game ranomly/find him in a tournament.

Thank you in advance!

Haldawe wrote:
Hi there,

I am in dire need of ideas to counter a Skyweaver spam list that a usual at our local shop runs.

The elements of the list may vary, but what I need help with are 3 units of 6 Syweavers with Haywire cannons (1D6 assault, S4 FP-1, against vehicles causes MW on a 4+ on wounding roll, 1D3 on 6+), and Zephyrglaives (S4 -2 2D, 3 att each). Those bikes have -1 to be shoot, 4++ invul and 3W (why 3 instead of 2 I still do not understand).
They can be buffed with an additional -1 from psychic powers and another from lightning reflexes.
They are good (very good) against tanks and titans, as they ignore armor and invul saves, can move 22" and shoot at 24", and they are no slouch in combat either.

I usually play Imperium, and I am fine facing with all other harlequin units, or Ynnari or whatever, but this one seems like a really hard unit spam to beat.
Rather than just choosing to not play this person as I will likely loose with my usual lists (I don´t like lists that spam the best unit just for winning chances if it may take fun from the game), I would like to make one with something that could counter his spam if he took my call for a game ranomly/find him in a tournament.

Thank you in advance!

Harlequins are glass cannons, and the bikes are strangely the only durable unit in the codex. They are 3w because if they weren't they wouldn't be viable, or they'd cost about 12-15 points less.

As to helping you, what specific factions/lists do you play?

I play with IK (Warglaives, a Crusader and a Castellan), Deathwatch, Imperial Guard, Custodes and Space marines, have about 2k with all of them but usually play soup.

I also have Thousand Sons and could use a phychic spam list to beat him with mortals, but that wouldn't be fun for me to play tho :/

I am considering beginning Tau this christmas with all the points drops (and battlesuit not being vehicles is a plus...)

With IK, Helverins wreck Skyweavers. Bring 4 and shoot his weavers of the table. Other then that, infantry with good armor and lots of shots are also great against them. Agressors work pretty good against them. Deathwatch for example with primaris could work very well. Custodus jetbikes also work really good against them. A friend of mine plays the same type of lists and his biggest problems are things like Custodus, Tyranids and T'au. Armies that have a ton of shooting and/or damage 3 weapons, while not needing any form of vehicle support.
Because at that moment the Haywire cannons are nothing more then a D6 heavy bolter at S4.

Hummm - You are basically talking about a top 5 most busted unit in the game. There really isn't a good way to deal with them because they have all the best stats and support abilities. Plus they can fall back and shoot and assault....

In game they can on demand go to -2 to hit. Or to a 3++. Plus can get 6+FNP from a spell as well. Basically they are invulnerable to damage against knight units and if spammed to the max Autokill a knight with sub average rolls. Plus they do it from 24" away with a 16" move. Basically an army of vehicals auto loses to these guys.

It's Okay though because "knights are OP". Which is kinda true. Both these armies need to come back to the real world.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hummm - You are basically talking about a top 5 most busted unit in the game. There really isn't a good way to deal with them because they have all the best stats and support abilities. Plus they can fall back and shoot and assault....

In game they can on demand go to -2 to hit. Or to a 3++. Plus can get 6+FNP from a spell as well. Basically they are invulnerable to damage against knight units and if spammed to the max Autokill a knight with sub average rolls. Plus they do it from 24" away with a 16" move. Basically an army of vehicals auto loses to these guys.

It's Okay though because "knights are OP". Which is kinda true. Both these armies need to come back to the real world.

Skyweavers are a hard counter to vehicles. They are not busted. When given a boost via abilities outside of their codex, they may become too strong, but the unit within the confines of the Harlequin codex is fine.

As to beating a list that contains 3x units of 6? Don't take vehicles. A smart general will react to your helverin's and keep a unit or two of those bikes in the webway ensuring they can't be alpha struck before they deliver a payload. Harlequin suffer mightily against weight of shots as they are easy to wound once you've hit them, and they only have a limited ability to get a 3++ (one of which can only happen if the unit advanced).

One thing to bear in mind that you mention briefly in your original post; Skyweavers can't get -1 to hit from psychic phases. Harlequins have two ways to add -1 to hit modifiers, but both of them only affect infantry units.

They're already really good, don't let your opponent make them even better.

Like most Harlequins units, they're also most vulnerable to weight of fire. At the end of the day they're still just T4 with a 4+ save.

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hummm - You are basically talking about a top 5 most busted unit in the game. There really isn't a good way to deal with them because they have all the best stats and support abilities. Plus they can fall back and shoot and assault....

In game they can on demand go to -2 to hit. Or to a 3++. Plus can get 6+FNP from a spell as well. Basically they are invulnerable to damage against knight units and if spammed to the max Autokill a knight with sub average rolls. Plus they do it from 24" away with a 16" move. Basically an army of vehicals auto loses to these guys.

It's Okay though because "knights are OP". Which is kinda true. Both these armies need to come back to the real world.

Skyweavers are a hard counter to vehicles. They are not busted. When given a boost via abilities outside of their codex, they may become too strong, but the unit within the confines of the Harlequin codex is fine.

As to beating a list that contains 3x units of 6? Don't take vehicles. A smart general will react to your helverin's and keep a unit or two of those bikes in the webway ensuring they can't be alpha struck before they deliver a payload. Harlequin suffer mightily against weight of shots as they are easy to wound once you've hit them, and they only have a limited ability to get a 3++ (one of which can only happen if the unit advanced).

He's IK he has no option though. Plus being a hard counter to vehicals is one thing. It also gets d6 ap-1 shots against infantry too which clear infantry just fine. More or less you are agreeing with me - he can't win against this unit with his chosen army - you just don't think it's OP.

I agree - list tailoring is a valid method to win games.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hummm - You are basically talking about a top 5 most busted unit in the game. There really isn't a good way to deal with them because they have all the best stats and support abilities. Plus they can fall back and shoot and assault....

In game they can on demand go to -2 to hit. Or to a 3++. Plus can get 6+FNP from a spell as well. Basically they are invulnerable to damage against knight units and if spammed to the max Autokill a knight with sub average rolls. Plus they do it from 24" away with a 16" move. Basically an army of vehicals auto loses to these guys.

It's Okay though because "knights are OP". Which is kinda true. Both these armies need to come back to the real world.

Lol, Skyweavers aren't busted, they're just one of the only hard counters to the most popular easy buttons out there. If that guy plays against Nids or Daemons he's smoked.

For the OP, I'd do Custodes with infantry Guard. Mortar Spam, lots of bodies, Dawneagle Shield caps and vexella. That would be your 'paper' to his 'rock'. Taking stuff like Helverins would be more like taking 'rock' to beat 'rock'. You have Deathwatch too, they would be a good matchup with easy wounding, you don't need AP weaponry as Quins only use invulns.

If you're in an area where everyone takes knights or tank spam, then yes a guy that shows up with Skyweavers is going to have a great time. Work in some monster or horde based lists, or just balance out your lists with enough infantry support and all of a sudden he spent 900 points on sub-optimal weapons.

If your meta is so skewed to heavy armor that 3x6man Skyweaver units are the norm, your meta needs more infantry and less Knights on the table.

D6 ap-1 shots don't do all that much to most infantry. Or are Heavy Bolters and Intercessors suddenly godmode when they've got pointy ears?

 Burnage wrote:
One thing to bear in mind that you mention briefly in your original post; Skyweavers can't get -1 to hit from psychic phases. Harlequins have two ways to add -1 to hit modifiers, but both of them only affect infantry units.

They're already really good, don't let your opponent make them even better.

Like most Harlequins units, they're also most vulnerable to weight of fire. At the end of the day they're still just T4 with a 4+ save.

Didn't know that only applied to infantry, he tends to miss some rules unintentionally, but alreday helps, thank you.

Will try for the next one to run more infantry, but I would like to field vehicles as well. Maybe overloading him with chimeras/hellhounds ("cheap" tanks that are not that important to lose) might work? And some basilisk out of LOS for the units that he doesn't use lightning reflexes on (I am already tthinking using the formations from vigilus, the artillery one or the mechanized one).

Also, remember that Powers and Stratagems can only affect one target at a time. So if he has 3x6mans, shoot at one, he pops -1 to hit, everything else shoots at another.

The CWE version of LQR can target models with Fly - I'm surprised the Harlequin one can't.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hummm - You are basically talking about a top 5 most busted unit in the game. There really isn't a good way to deal with them because they have all the best stats and support abilities. Plus they can fall back and shoot and assault....

In game they can on demand go to -2 to hit. Or to a 3++. Plus can get 6+FNP from a spell as well. Basically they are invulnerable to damage against knight units and if spammed to the max Autokill a knight with sub average rolls. Plus they do it from 24" away with a 16" move. Basically an army of vehicals auto loses to these guys.

It's Okay though because "knights are OP". Which is kinda true. Both these armies need to come back to the real world.

Skyweavers are a hard counter to vehicles. They are not busted. When given a boost via abilities outside of their codex, they may become too strong, but the unit within the confines of the Harlequin codex is fine.

As to beating a list that contains 3x units of 6? Don't take vehicles. A smart general will react to your helverin's and keep a unit or two of those bikes in the webway ensuring they can't be alpha struck before they deliver a payload. Harlequin suffer mightily against weight of shots as they are easy to wound once you've hit them, and they only have a limited ability to get a 3++ (one of which can only happen if the unit advanced).

He's IK he has no option though. Plus being a hard counter to vehicals is one thing. It also gets d6 ap-1 shots against infantry too which clear infantry just fine. More or less you are agreeing with me - he can't win against this unit with his chosen army - you just don't think it's OP.

I agree - list tailoring is a valid method to win games.

IK is just going to lose that match vs 3x max Skyweaver units unless there is some really bad rolling. As for clearing infantry, the averages seem to state otherwise. A max squad of bikes is going to get 21 shots, Hitting 14 times, and wounding 7 times against MEQ, of which 3.5 will be saved. 306 points to do 3.5 wounds to MEQ isn't really that great. Granted they can still charge as well doing 18 S4 AP -2 D2 attacks (24 if they are Frozen Stars), so there's more punch there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Also, remember that Powers and Stratagems can only affect one target at a time. So if he has 3x6mans, shoot at one, he pops -1 to hit, everything else shoots at another.

The CWE version of LQR can target models with Fly - I'm surprised the Harlequin one can't.

I am assuming you mean Lightning Fast Reactions with LQR. As to that, the Harlequin version is the same. However there are two Harlequin Psychic powers which only work on <INFANTRY>. One is essentially Conceal, while the other is cast on an enemy unit and reduces their attack rolls by -1

Bharring wrote:
If your meta is so skewed to heavy armor that 3x6man Skyweaver units are the norm, your meta needs more infantry and less Knights on the table.

D6 ap-1 shots don't do all that much to most infantry. Or are Heavy Bolters and Intercessors suddenly godmode when they've got pointy ears?

Against Space Marines or Loyal 32, those 18D6 Str4 AP-1 is deadly. They have more than 60% chance of killing 10 power armor marines a turn.

These things ARE godmode when there are 18 of them all mount on a jetbike that moves 16" a turn not suffering penalty to hit and bearing 4++ and -1 to hit. Compare to Bolt Rifle on a platform that moves only 6" or a heavy bolter on a similarly costed platform that moves will results in penalty to hit.

585 points of *tacs* average 10 dead PA Marines a turn.
You're worried that 810 points of Skyweavers have a 60% chance of killing 10 dead PA marines?

810 points of most things should be able to remove 130 points of PA Marines.

My suggestion is play Custodes. It is the only army I ever saw had defeated Harlequins.

The Custodes Jetbike is equally fast, durable with T6 2+/4++ and 4W, has the high RoF weapon that do not suffer penalty due to moving, and naturally hit on 2s means that they don't suffer that hard facing Harlequin's stack minus to hit. Also have a stratagem to counter charge in enemy charge phase and strike first. If you seek tailor against Harlequin, this is the unit you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
585 points of *tacs* average 10 dead PA Marines a turn.
You're worried that 810 points of Skyweavers have a 60% chance of killing 10 dead PA marines?

810 points of most things should be able to remove 130 points of PA Marines.

Looks like you did not read or understand the next paragraph, and cutting out the awesome mobility and durability of Harlequins from the discussion.

Just by math of the points per shoot and kill rate, 45 bolter marine in rapid fire range have a 54% chances of killing 10 PA marines, so of course you can draw the conclusion that Harlequin Jetbikes are inferior to Tactical Marines. But the problem in reality is, how are you getting them into double tap range??? Foot slogging them? How many turns you plan to spend to get them into firing range and all in LoS of their targets under the 8th edition rule? How many of them you think would be dead on their way into firing position? Zero???

To be honest, when talking about firepower of a unit, you can't just talk about the RoF, hit rate, Str, AP and dmg. You must also take the mobility and durability of its platform into consideration, these gives rise to the efficiency of the firepower and offers flexibility to player to wield it. Harlequins are king of the 1st factor, and actually above average in durability due to all kind of eldar trickery.

Sure 810pts should be able to kill 130pts units, or they are either terrible or their target is tooooo OP. But good luck to get those 810pts units into firing position. If you give me 810pts tactical marines, ask me to target 3 Harlequin jetbikes worth 135pts accross the table. I'd laughed my ass off even if I get a chance to kill even just one within 2 turns. On the other hand, if you give me 810pts Harlequin Jetbikes and ask me to kill 10 tactical marines accross, that is a job so easy.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
My suggestion is play Custodes. It is the only army I ever saw had defeated Harlequins.

The Custodes Jetbike is equally fast, durable with T6 2+/4++ and 4W, has the high RoF weapon that do not suffer penalty due to moving, and naturally hit on 2s means that they don't suffer that hard facing Harlequin's stack minus to hit. Also have a stratagem to counter charge in enemy charge phase and strike first. If you seek tailor against Harlequin, this is the unit you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
585 points of *tacs* average 10 dead PA Marines a turn.
You're worried that 810 points of Skyweavers have a 60% chance of killing 10 dead PA marines?

810 points of most things should be able to remove 130 points of PA Marines.

Looks like you did not read or understand the next paragraph, and cutting out the awesome mobility and durability of Harlequins from the discussion.

Just by math of the points per shoot and kill rate, 45 bolter marine in rapid fire range have a 54% chances of killing 10 PA marines, so of course you can draw the conclusion that Harlequin Jetbikes are inferior to Tactical Marines. But the problem in reality is, how are you getting them into double tap range??? Foot slogging them? How many turns you plan to spend to get them into firing range and all in LoS of their targets under the 8th edition rule? How many of them you think would be dead on their way into firing position? Zero???

To be honest, when talking about firepower of a unit, you can't just talk about the RoF, hit rate, Str, AP and dmg. You must also take the mobility and durability of its platform into consideration, these gives rise to the efficiency of the firepower and offers flexibility to player to wield it. Harlequins are king of the 1st factor, and actually above average in durability due to all kind of eldar trickery.

Sure 810pts should be able to kill 130pts units, or they are either terrible or their target is tooooo OP. But good luck to get those 810pts units into firing position. If you give me 810pts tactical marines, ask me to target 3 Harlequin jetbikes worth 135pts accross the table. I'd laughed my ass off even if I get a chance to kill even just one within 2 turns. On the other hand, if you give me 810pts Harlequin Jetbikes and ask me to kill 10 tactical marines accross, that is a job so easy.

Why on earth are you comparing 585 points of marines to 810 points of Skyweavers? If you're going to compare things, at least compare like things that are appropriately point costed. How about 30 Space Marine bikers with Chain Swords? How do they stack up against 18 Skyweavers?

Neophyte2012 wrote:
My suggestion is play Custodes. It is the only army I ever saw had defeated Harlequins.

I defeated harlequins with all my armies. Drukhari, orks and even Space Wolves.

Against harlequins 3++ and mortal wounds sources work well. Add as many storm shields you can field. Don't you have any way to negate the -1 or -2 to hit? SW have a 1CP stratagem that allows a unit to completely ignore the penalties and matches amazingly with their devatators.

1) Skyweavers are perfectly fine, Shiny spears are 20pts cheaper.

2) 3 wounds is 1 wound less than Attack bikes, they have 4 wounds, ALL bikers went up +1 or +2 wounds, Skyweavers went up 1w where many other 2man units went up 2 wounds

3) Dont take vehicle heavy list, take infantry ones and have HB's and other mass shooting weapons

4) Focus 1 unit at a time, if you kill a full unit, thats 1 unit less to move, and take other objectives

I'm not saying that Tacs are better than Skyweavers. I'm saying that 18d6 S4 AP-1 shots for 800+ points isn't all that amazing.

I read the next paragraph and find those to be excellent points. Skyweavers are great units. I'm merely refuting the idea that their Haywire is a good counter to Guardsmen and Marines.

Skyweavers are certainly good. Don't try to counter them with Knights. Despite what you hear, they don't clear most infantry all that quickly.

Bharring wrote:
I'm not saying that Tacs are better than Skyweavers. I'm saying that 18d6 S4 AP-1 shots for 800+ points isn't all that amazing.

I read the next paragraph and find those to be excellent points. Skyweavers are great units. I'm merely refuting the idea that their Haywire is a good counter to Guardsmen and Marines.

Skyweavers are certainly good. Don't try to counter them with Knights. Despite what you hear, they don't clear most infantry all that quickly.

Actually if you do the math. In combinaton with shooting and melle attacks. They clear 50 gaurdsmen in a single turn with an average roll - so killing 60 is well within the realm of possibility.

This is AKA - not sucking at killing infantry. Tired of the BS argument. Their mobility amplifies their damage to the max. Not to mention the ability of 18 hard to kill bikes tying up all your units that can't fall back and shoot - literally every turn after turn 1. They are an extremely busted unit to anyone not using them.

Their attack range should be dropped to 18" and the haywire should literally wound everything on 6's that isn't a vehical.

50 Guardsmen?
Marine shooting kills 2x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) Guard, or 16/27
Marine CC kills 1x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3), or another 8/27.
32/27 kills/Marine.
50 Guardsmen would take 42 Marines.
42 Marines is 546.

So the assumptions are:
810 points killing 50 Guardsmen in a round is *great* for the points.
Marines are *terrible* for their points.
546 Marines kill Guardsmen in a round.

This brings us to:
810 points killing 50 Guardsmen in a round is *great* for the points.
546 points killing 50 Guardsmen in a round is *terrible* for the points.

Note that I'm not saying Skyweavers are bad. I'm saying that either Skyweavers aren't super good at killing Guardsmen or Marines aren't super bad at killing guardsmen.

And I'm fairly sure we both agree Marines are super bad at killing Guardsmen.

I didn't see it mentioned, but to clarify why Skyweavers have 3 wounds is to be consistent with ALL other Bikes in 8E.

All bikes in 8E have at least 2 wounds. 1 for the rider, 1 for the bulk of the bike.
And Skyweavers have 2 riders + biek, so 3 wounds

What really messes with this is that Marine Attack bikes are 4 Wounds. That's what should puzzle you, not the 3 wounds on Skyweavers.

Which BTW are actually a pretty hefty investment on the points side (compared to other Aeldari bikes)

-

Bharring wrote:
50 Guardsmen?
Marine shooting kills 2x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) Guard, or 16/27
Marine CC kills 1x(2/3)(2/3)(2/3), or another 8/27.
32/27 kills/Marine.
50 Guardsmen would take 42 Marines.
42 Marines is 546.

So the assumptions are:
810 points killing 50 Guardsmen in a round is *great* for the points.
Marines are *terrible* for their points.
546 Marines kill Guardsmen in a round.

This brings us to:
810 points killing 50 Guardsmen in a round is *great* for the points.
546 points killing 50 Guardsmen in a round is *terrible* for the points.

Note that I'm not saying Skyweavers are bad. I'm saying that either Skyweavers aren't super good at killing Guardsmen or Marines aren't super bad at killing guardsmen.

And I'm fairly sure we both agree Marines are super bad at killing Guardsmen.

Marines can not leverage melle against gaurdsmen. It's practically impossible. Just remove the melle stats from the equation for marines because it's not realistic. Harliquen bikers are very capable of assaulting turn 1 if necessary - but really what happens is this and you are missing the point entirely. Harlie bikes shoot and assault any unit they want. Marines are only really ever able to shoot and probably not even rapid fire with the majority of their units.

Plus the argument isn't that harlie bikes are amazing anti infantry only that they are decent. Decent is too much when they remove vehicals at will even up to titan scale models. Also - being as effective as a tactical marine for killing infantry is not bad. Tactical marines anti infantry ability is okay - they just don't have any other roll they are good at. Unlike harlie bikes....which are pretty good all around at everything in the game. Including defense.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I didn't see it mentioned, but to clarify why Skyweavers have 3 wounds is to be consistent with ALL other Bikes in 8E.

All bikes in 8E have at least 2 wounds. 1 for the rider, 1 for the bulk of the bike.
And Skyweavers have 2 riders + biek, so 3 wounds

What really messes with this is that Marine Attack bikes are 4 Wounds. That's what should puzzle you, not the 3 wounds on Skyweavers.

Which BTW are actually a pretty hefty investment on the points side (compared to other Aeldari bikes)

-

They are worth their points. How do you really price their mobility though which is a big issue here? And shooting mortal wounds?

Let's also realize that if you want to talk about effectively killing guardsman in cc, then each unit of Skyweavers cost 36 more points as they pay 6 points for the priviledge of S4 AP-2 D2, so those 18d6 shots now cost 906 points not 810.

 Galef wrote:
I didn't see it mentioned, but to clarify why Skyweavers have 3 wounds is to be consistent with ALL other Bikes in 8E.

All bikes in 8E have at least 2 wounds. 1 for the rider, 1 for the bulk of the bike.
And Skyweavers have 2 riders + biek, so 3 wounds

What really messes with this is that Marine Attack bikes are 4 Wounds. That's what should puzzle you, not the 3 wounds on Skyweavers.

Which BTW are actually a pretty hefty investment on the points side (compared to other Aeldari bikes)

-

I literally said that lol

 mokoshkana wrote:
Let's also realize that if you want to talk about effectively killing guardsman in cc, then each unit of Skyweavers cost 36 more points as they pay 6 points for the priviledge of S4 AP-2 D2, so those 18d6 shots now cost 906 points not 810.

As anyone with a brain should actaully do on a unit that can charge and fall back and act as normal. Everyone I know does that. Plus I always facotr the 18 bikes as costing 900 points. Comparable to the cost of 70 tactical marines (which they out-damage vs infantry in every realistic scenario) because they move 3x as fast.

Also, the notion that they delete Titans at will is just absurd. A unit of 6 does around 8 MW on average a turn to vehicles.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I didn't see it mentioned, but to clarify why Skyweavers have 3 wounds is to be consistent with ALL other Bikes in 8E.

All bikes in 8E have at least 2 wounds. 1 for the rider, 1 for the bulk of the bike.
And Skyweavers have 2 riders + biek, so 3 wounds

What really messes with this is that Marine Attack bikes are 4 Wounds. That's what should puzzle you, not the 3 wounds on Skyweavers.

Which BTW are actually a pretty hefty investment on the points side (compared to other Aeldari bikes)

-

I literally said that lol

Sorry, I missed your post. But I am still glad I added to what you said. Bikes are almost all 1w for each rider, 1w for the bike itself.
I guess Attack bikes are 4 because Marines, which is ok.

-

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Let's also realize that if you want to talk about effectively killing guardsman in cc, then each unit of Skyweavers cost 36 more points as they pay 6 points for the priviledge of S4 AP-2 D2, so those 18d6 shots now cost 906 points not 810.

As anyone with a brain should actaully do on a unit that can charge and fall back and act as normal. Everyone I know does that. Plus I always facotr the 18 bikes as costing 900 points. Comparable to the cost of 70 tactical marines (which they out-damage vs infantry in every realistic scenario) because they move 3x as fast.

Okay great, then compare them to Marine Bikers where the speed is much more equivalent. That comparison doesn't fit your narrative though, does it?