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I think you're conflating posters.

I'm not against Farseers maybe costing more. Doom is amazing. So the first Farseer in a list is worth a lot. The second, not so much. We probably don't agree on actual price point, though.

Making DOOM an 8 wouldn't be terrible. A 9 is absurd, though.

Skyweavers costing more? I'm not sure I'm against that. I don't think I ever said I was.

But I do disagree with the interaction being dumb. It's a strong combo counter to Knights and other T8 vehilces with good invulns that cost at least 400 pts. That's not a very long list. Doom itself is also strong for any single unit that costs ~400 points. I'm not sure that Knights and Deathstars have *enough* counters. We should be seeing fewer of them.

Doom has an inherent limit of affecting one enemy target. The obvioius counter is to not put 400+ points into one unit. Even an SM LT does more than Doom vs smaller units.

Bharring wrote:
I think you're conflating posters.

I'm not against Farseers maybe costing more. Doom is amazing. So the first Farseer in a list is worth a lot. The second, not so much. We probably don't agree on actual price point, though.

Making DOOM an 8 wouldn't be terrible. A 9 is absurd, though.

Skyweavers costing more? I'm not sure I'm against that. I don't think I ever said I was.

But I do disagree with the interaction being dumb. It's a strong combo counter to Knights and other T8 vehilces with good invulns that cost at least 400 pts. That's not a very long list. Doom itself is also strong for any single unit that costs ~400 points. I'm not sure that Knights and Deathstars have *enough* counters. We should be seeing fewer of them.

Doom has an inherent limit of affecting one enemy target. The obvioius counter is to not put 400+ points into one unit. Even an SM LT does more than Doom vs smaller units.

WC 8 sounds like a challenge unit you take into account that a farseer can inherently reroll 1 or both dice for a psycic test. It leads to an WC8 being far more probable than any other races WC8 they would need to go to 9 to be comparablely difficult.

You also have to recall that the Farseer can't do that *and* the CP roll.

CP9 Doom means it's about likely to go off with reroll as not. Which means it can't really be modified beyond a 50/50 shot (also, the secondary power the Farseer uses can't then use the reroll, but their secondary powers aren't all that impressive). So you're taking a primary HQ for a power that only works on one unit every other turn.

The primary psykic power from a primary HQ is almost always going to be worth the CP to reroll a die if it fails. So the Farseer saves a CP every other round manifesting WC8 powers. But is otherwise about the same.

I'd rather get rid of the Farseer's reroll than move Doom to WC9. But even assuming auto-passing, Doom doesn't outperform a Lt in many cases.

Bharring wrote:
You also have to recall that the Farseer can't do that *and* the CP roll.

CP9 Doom means it's about likely to go off with reroll as not. Which means it can't really be modified beyond a 50/50 shot (also, the secondary power the Farseer uses can't then use the reroll, but their secondary powers aren't all that impressive). So you're taking a primary HQ for a power that only works on one unit every other turn.

The primary psykic power from a primary HQ is almost always going to be worth the CP to reroll a die if it fails. So the Farseer saves a CP every other round manifesting WC8 powers. But is otherwise about the same.

I'd rather get rid of the Farseer's reroll than move Doom to WC9. But even assuming auto-passing, Doom doesn't outperform a Lt in many cases.

Not sure I have seen a rule that says you can't
You can reroll a rerolled dice yes, but nothing actually says you can't reroll 1 dice with the free reroll and possibly use a CP to reroll the second. Also that 1CP only allows 1 dice the farseer can roll 1 or both for free. WC8 and a price increase for the farseer on bike might just about bring the craziness to heal.

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"Why do people always assume it's just knights that get screwed over hard by this, OP interaction.
Leviathan dreadnaughts, spartans, Stormsurge and really anything that should actually be able to take some damage just gets point and delete. "
If it's a 400+ pt model, then it's in "Knight" territory.
If it's not a 400pt model, then Harlie Bikes aren't making their points back vs a Doomed target.

That's not to say that Harlie Bikes aren't going to make their points back, or that Doom isn't good. Or that some nerf isn't needed.

"Well if Eldar player's would stop putting everyone on a jetbike then maybe we can discuss foot seers.
M16 and an advance of 6 and trying to get with 24 inches while just outside of 24 inches of a psycher, denying is not happening."

Try it.
Place a JetSeer on the table. Place your bubblewrap 24" away from the JetSeeer. Place your Psyker behind your bubblewrap. Place your Knight behind the Pskyer. That JetSeer is not making it within 24" of the Knight but not the Psyker. The Knight has a larger base, but not that much larger.

"Yeah because a 6 inch range no invulnerable saves WC8 on a caster with no re rolls is comparable to DOOM's WC7 with reroll one or both dice."
Once again, nobody is saying that Null Zone is as powerful as Doom. We're saying that if all other debuffs have the same rule, Doom shouldn't get special treatment by way of a special rule. It'd be better to balance it other ways.

Then feel free to suggest something, at the moment your just saying no to everything and saying everyone else should just accept it and bend over for their eldar overlords for another edition.

As farseers costing more is apparently uncalled for(Questionable)
Making DOOM harder to cast (should be a 9at least) is unfluffy
Skyweavers costing more is uncalled for
Fixing the dumb interaction is apparently unfair unless we just start rewriting 4 other codex's for non problem interactions.

As to the trying it lets see Tau don't have any psychers to deny we just have to take it, so much good for the game fun.
Marines, yeah because you always have a couple of spare 100 point HQ's just milling around incase you need a deny, they suck enough without having to take more damn tax units.

The only 2 armies not really effected by this issue is Eldar and guard. One because they have the psychic and the - to hit shenanigans to screw it up, the other because when your only paying 75% of the points for the models you actually put on the table your going to have plenty left.

AoS style Allies would go a long way to fixing most of these issues. It would effectively cripple soup as you'd have to pick a main faction and then could only bring 400pts of allies. In this particular case, I'd either have to go with CWE and have 400 points for bikes (enough to get a vanguard det consisting of a Troupe Master with 3 min units of Skyweavers) or I'd have to take Harlequins with a 400 point Eldar detachment (Farseer on bike, a Warlock on bike, and likely another HQ for a CP or a unit of rangers for no CP). Now obviously, that second iteration still seems over the top, but remember that I have to take around 800 points of non Skyrunner models (assuming I take 3 max units of bikes) which is not broken in any sense.

OP is what you make of it when viewing things through your army's lenses. Just about everyone has a hard counter which seems incredibly broken to them. For instance, how on earth would a pure harlequin army deal with epidemius/plaguebearer spam at 2k points?

"WC8 and a price increase for the farseer on bike might just about bring the craziness to heal."
Not sure I disagree.

Bharring wrote:
"WC8 and a price increase for the farseer on bike might just about bring the craziness to heal."
Not sure I disagree.

No one is claiming that mono-CWE is broken, so why would we make them weaker instead of fixing the real issue (i.e. the interaction of Doom with Druhkari Disintegrator Cannon Ravagers and/or Harlequin Skyrunners). Stop attempting to fix a symptom and correct the problem. Codices are balanced around themselves internally (not always as well as is needed, but that is a different issue entirely), not against the interactions between each other. If we limit the interactions between codices, then the original balance will come back into play.

"No one is claiming that mono-CWE is broken"
Many people are claiming mono-CWE is broken. Try mapping CWE vs SM. Some units line up reasonably balanced. Others, holy hell nowhere close.

Bharring wrote:
"No one is claiming that mono-CWE is broken"
Many people are claiming mono-CWE is broken. Try mapping CWE vs SM. Some units line up reasonably balanced. Others, holy hell nowhere close.

They are claiming Alaitoc is broken. Take away the inherent -1 to hit, and there isn't much to complain about.

- Dark Reapers: These guys catch flak for Soul Burst, which is not CWE
- Shining Spears: These guys catch flak for Soul Burst, which is not CWE
- Farseer: Doom is the big offender, but again it is due to interactions with units from other codices
- Hemlocks: There are some gripes about the strength of these planes, but it usually comes in conjunction with Alaitoc and the ability to stack -1's to hit
- Rangers: Alaitoc and the ability to stack -1's to hit

Are there really any other units which anyone remotely complains about?

People just love to complain, regardless of how warranted it is.

Ice_can wrote:

Then feel free to suggest something, at the moment your just saying no to everything and saying everyone else should just accept it and bend over for their eldar overlords for another edition.

As farseers costing more is apparently uncalled for(Questionable)
Making DOOM harder to cast (should be a 9at least) is unfluffy
Skyweavers costing more is uncalled for
Fixing the dumb interaction is apparently unfair unless we just start rewriting 4 other codex's for non problem interactions.

As to the trying it lets see Tau don't have any psychers to deny we just have to take it, so much good for the game fun.
Marines, yeah because you always have a couple of spare 100 point HQ's just milling around incase you need a deny, they suck enough without having to take more damn tax units.
.

You can't be serious. Most things taken by Tau are not vehicles so the haywire does nothing to them.
Imperium units have no excuse not to be able to mitigate psykers. You have the Culexus and for some reason people forget you also have access to Inquisitor Greyfax (not my problem she's not taken, 2 denies with +1 to the roll)
Farseers do not need a points increase, maybe the Skyrunner version, but certainly not the foot version. They're 110pts, all they do is cast psychics. They aren't resilient, they are not offensive, all they do is buff/debuff, so they'd better be good at it.
Doom is a great power, it is. I'd be OK with WC8, 9 is just ridiculous. It doesn't need any other changes, it's been around forever doing what it does. If Soup was being fixed, I'd be more in for an adjustment for non-craftworlders, but it's obvious GW doesn't care to nerf soup, so it should stay.
kjyweavers do not need to cost more. Have you seen the Harlequin codex? They don't have a lot of choices. Mono harlies need skyweavers to be good.

Bharring wrote:


Skyweavers costing more? I'm not sure I'm against that. I don't think I ever said I was.

I'd be against that. More expensive skyweavers would just make pure harlequins less efficient as a standalone army, pushing them into the soup even more than now. Single units don't need to be addressed, harlequins are quite balanced as an independent army, it's the soup and the combos between different codexes that must be nerfed. Just make doom, or any other psychic power, illegal against anything that isn't part of the craftworld codex, problem fixed. Harlequins have their own psychic power, let them shine using their style of playing.

Yeah, they already are very costly, 51pts for a melee weapon and gun.

If they go up any more Quins wont be played at all, as their will be better anti-tank options.

In a perfect world, soup should be worse than mono-armies because of lack of synergies. 8th ed. was supposed to be all about synergies (auras and CPs), and mixing units that were not meant to go together was supposed to hinder the army.
The problem is that currently, souping can actually bring the best synergies ever. Either indirectly (CP batteries that feed CP-hungry elite armies), or directly (like doom).
A Farseer instantly makes any DE/Harlequin army much better, the same way the loyal 32 make any IK army better. Nerfing Farseers or Doom will somewhat help with the problem, but at the cost of really screwing mono CWE.
So I think making the Doom bonus apply exclusively to Asuryani is the best way to handle this.
It will remove one of IK's counter, but I believe IKs are mostly a problem because of soup in the first place, and also need to be nerfed.

fresus wrote:
In a perfect world, soup should be worse than mono-armies because of lack of synergies. 8th ed. was supposed to be all about synergies (auras and CPs), and mixing units that were not meant to go together was supposed to hinder the army.
The problem is that currently, souping can actually bring the best synergies ever. Either indirectly (CP batteries that feed CP-hungry elite armies), or directly (like doom).
A Farseer instantly makes any DE/Harlequin army much better, the same way the loyal 32 make any IK army better. Nerfing Farseers or Doom will somewhat help with the problem, but at the cost of really screwing mono CWE.
So I think making the Doom bonus apply exclusively to Asuryani is the best way to handle this.
It will remove one of IK's counter, but I believe IKs are mostly a problem because of soup in the first place, and also need to be nerfed.

I agree pretty much with all of this. Right now we have a weird semblance of balance, with Harlequins being nearly the only hard counter to Knights and keeping them from completely running rampant, especially since Smash Cap strats got nerfed. And Knights themselves won't be fixed unless CP farming and min sized CP battalions get fixed, which likely won't happen.

I don't have all the answers but I do know a couple things:
1: I don't max out my Skyweavers, but even still, I have the only army in my local Meta that makes all the Knight players say 'oh s#!+' in local tournaments. The next worst matchup they face is mirror lists. Sometimes I take a Craftworld detachment with my Quins, sometimes it's a Wych Cult detachment, usually totaling 3/4 Quins, 1/4 other Eldar.
2: The list of armies that make me say 'oh s#!+', is much longer than a single niche opponent, including Daemons, Nids, Infantry Guard, Deathwatch, Tau (conditionally), Orks, and Custodes.

In my mind, that indicates Harlequins have multiple counters, while Knights have one (mirror matchups aren't a counter). What is THE question people ask now when they are making a tournament list? Can this list handle Skyweavers? A Farseer? No? If you go over to the army list section it's all about if the list can handle Knights. At least to me that's an indication of what lists and factions are truely influencing the game right now.

Obviously this is subjective and limited data, but it's relevant at least in my local Meta.