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Irubius,
Decide what Craftworld you want to be, fluffwise. Get into their fluff. YOu can even create your own.

When putting together your list, pick a trait.

If your Trait doesn't match your Craftworld, nobody cares. Unless you take one of the few Special Characters that do (most of ours are actually untraited).

 Galef wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Saim Hann is so mediocre it's the only one I don't know off the top of my head - but it's aimed at bikes, vypers, and shining spears.

And even then, it doesn't really benefit those units as much as you'd think.
Saim-hann allows any unit to reroll charge rolls and BIKES ignore the -1 to hit when moving with Heavy weapons
Windriders and Vypers, 2 of the most iconic Saim-hann units, do NOT want to charge anything. And due to Battle Focus, WRs want to use shuriken weapons, which aren't Heavy and benefit more from Biel-Tan.
Shining Spears enjoy the reroll change, but with their movement and Quicken, they often don't need it.

They is, however, 1 unit that likes both the Saim-hann bonuses, but it is an Index-only option: Autarch Skyrunner with Laser lance and Reaper Launcher
So unless you're running 3 of those (which I've done, it's fun), I skip Saim-Hann.

But I'd also keep an eye on the FAQs. It's only a matter of time before Alaitoc, RG and AL get changed to a cover bonus (though depending on how they implement that change, Alaitoc might STILL be the de-facto trait for tourneys.)

-

I think you're both being too dismissive of Siam-Hann, a list with 15 Scatter Bikes just won GW's Heat 3, 60 S6 shots from 36" away is a good way to clear hordes it seems.

I play against Siam han mostly and I play Ulthwe myself. Aliotic is lame and there is practically no way that -1 to hit as an army trait is going to remain - armies havn't been getting it anymore because it's fething busted.

Siam-han It's the best trait for spears hands down. It's also great for serpants as they like to charge things and tie them up. Scatter bikes are now pretty dang good.

Think about Saim Han. If your wave serpent is loaded with Banshees....they will make it and cancel overwatch so that your spears can attack unhindered.

The main use for taking a Saim Han detachment (not an army) is to take the relic...THE NOVA LANCE. That is the one beatstick wargear the elder have in CC.

For 108 points you have an autarch that will crush. He is no Capt Slamguinius but he can bring some hurt.

I like 2 or 3 Vypers units with Heavy Weapons to fill out an Outrider detachment. Possibly with a Wave serpent with Banshees and the Autarch Skyrunner with Nova Lance.

The rest of the army should then be Alaitoc, Biel-tan or Iyanden. I refuse to take Ulthwe anymore as the game does not need more dice rolling and time slowing mechanics.

tneva82 wrote:
Any faction if trait is -1 you know that's the most competive.

Nah.

Ultramarines > Raven Guard (and Raven Guard was only ever competitive for the stratagem, not the -1). Same for Mars > Stygies VIII.

I don't think I've ever even seen or heard of the -1 Knight, despite everyone and their dog playing Imperial Knights.

Reemule wrote:
Its worth noting that some people feel the -1 at range might get changed at some point. Or nerfed.

The 6+++ might be worth some more consideration at that point.

That's wishlisting. People were so "CA changes that" but guess what? No such change.

It's just people wishlisting and GW doing what GW does, randomly changing meta to boost sales.

Two big blobs of Biel tan guardians in the webway or the twin catapult windriders, buffed by the avatar to make them fearless with the obligatory powers like doom and jinx will do serious work, even against knights. I like Biel tan because I can take psykers rather than autarch support which to me is much more impactful.
It does kind of depend on how you want to build your army. Iyanden works great for Wraith assault armies, alaitoc for gunline armies etc.
Alaitoc is generally the strongest but is fairly useless against horde or melee armies.

kingheff wrote:
Two big blobs of Biel tan guardians in the webway or the twin catapult windriders, buffed by the avatar to make them fearless with the obligatory powers like doom and jinx will do serious work, even against knights. I like Biel tan because I can take psykers rather than autarch support which to me is much more impactful.
It does kind of depend on how you want to build your army. Iyanden works great for Wraith assault armies, alaitoc for gunline armies etc.
Alaitoc is generally the strongest but is fairly useless against horde or melee armies.

But, for the price of that Avatar, why not just go with an Autarch on a bike rocking the Alaitoc WL trait with a Farseer on the side?


I guess it depends on what you want to run in the army, but, personally I’ll always edge towards either Alaitoc or Ulthwe. Alaitoc is great for the first couple of turns – longer if you have mobility, and Ulthwe is free spirit stones on your tanks, and Eldrad.

My problem is Iyandan is that it’s trait kinda helps tanks, helps Wraithknights, potentially helps big Guardian blobs, but, if I’m taking 5 Wraith models in a Wave Serpent then, doubling their attacks once and then taking D3 mortal wounds isn’t exactly game changing. With the new Wraith Host detachment, you can already get 5 attacks base per model with swords anyway, so, it’s not like they aren’t going to kill what they charge most of the time.

Saim-Hann is another weird one imo. Re-roll charges is alright, but chances are the only unit you’ll be charging in is Shining Spears, and they’d have already quickened across the table and popped the strat to charge after advancing anyway. Ignoring moving and firing heavy weapons on Windriders and Vypers is ok, but, again, I still feel like Shuriken Cannons are categorically better than Scatter Lasers on Windriders and Vypers are prob going to be running double Cannon as well, unless you want Starcannons.

Biel-Tan is a free Autarch for Shuriken weapons and a free guide for 1 unit if you use the WL trait. It is a purely offensive setup which can generally be replicated with an Autarch tagging along with the key units whilst also gaining a defensive bonus on top via another trait.

For me, if you can afford Spirit Stones on the tanks you want, then Alaitoc is the way to go. If you want to save the 10-80 points from the Stones then, Ulthwe is a nice compromise in many ways. The -1 (-2 with the strat) does a lot more for you than the 6+++ does though.

Because the avatar is an absolute monster when he hits, plus his fearless bubble is enormous! At the new point cost he looks very interesting, maybe not 100% optimal but very tasty. Could combo well with the new cheap storm guardian blobs.

Alaitoc seems to be the absolute favorite.
But how many voters here do play Eldar at a regular base?

The thing about Saim-Hann's reroll charges is that you already get the option of the CP reroll, which is limited. But if you find yourself needing reroll-charges, you're doing something very wrong as CWE.

Reroll charges is great for Orkz and a lot of things. But that's because if they try 3 charges and 2 make it, they win. CWE is very different. If you try a charge and fail, you're likely to lose the game.

Think about what will be charging. Probably a deathstar of some kind (max unit, probably Shining Spears). You may also have a few skirmishers charge - Banshees, Scorpions, or even DAs/Guardians in some cases.

If your Shining Spears fail a charge, you're dead. Your deathstar unit does only a third of it's normal damage. It's in the open to be shot at. It tied nothing up. And, if you were after anything nasty, it can charge *you* instead (which means you fight last, and at S3 - neither of which Spears can function with).

If Banshees or Scorpions fail charges, they're CC units that didn't get into CC. THe enemy can move away from them and shoot them. You probably don't have anotehr threat that can tie up their target.

As such, CWE doesn't set up long charges and try them. Because failure means losing.

Because CWE doesn't set up long charges and try them, you shouldn't be looking at more than one failure in any given round. You can supplant that one reroll charge for a single CP, should it happen.

So Saim-Hann saves you 1 CP maybe once or twice a game. Not terrible. Not worthless. But compared to a 6+++, not great.

(When the traits came out, I considered Saim-Hann, because I charge a lot. But almost always short charges. And spread across every turn of the game.)

Just 81 votes for Alaitoc

Sunny Side Up wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Any faction if trait is -1 you know that's the most competive.

Nah.

Ultramarines > Raven Guard (and Raven Guard was only ever competitive for the stratagem, not the -1). Same for Mars > Stygies VIII.

I don't think I've ever even seen or heard of the -1 Knight, despite everyone and their dog playing Imperial Knights.

Both of those examples are massively skewed by special characters that do a lot of work (Guilliman and Tiggy for Ultras and Cawl for Mars), and in the latters case Stygies was overtaking Mars until the last FAQ.

 Imateria wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Any faction if trait is -1 you know that's the most competive.

Nah.

Ultramarines > Raven Guard (and Raven Guard was only ever competitive for the stratagem, not the -1). Same for Mars > Stygies VIII.

I don't think I've ever even seen or heard of the -1 Knight, despite everyone and their dog playing Imperial Knights.

Both of those examples are massively skewed by special characters that do a lot of work (Guilliman and Tiggy for Ultras and Cawl for Mars), and in the latters case Stygies was overtaking Mars until the last FAQ.

I totally agree. UM is NOT a better Trait then RG. Not by a long shot. But when you add Gilly, his Aura alone makes an UM army better than a RG one.

-

Of the special characters in the CWE book, though, isn't Eldrad the only one who's not available to Alaitoc the other 8-ish are available to Alaitoc.

Bharring wrote:
Of the special characters in the CWE book, though, isn't Eldrad the only one who's not available to Alaitoc the other 8-ish are available to Alaitoc.

Nah Prince Iriel is Iyanden only.
Not like it matters much though (it might at 70pts now, dunno).

And to the OP, while not playing in tournaments, I like Biel Tan as it offers a bunch of tools (a second guide, another way to strengthen your psychic phase, no need for an autarch babysitter on some units, the stratagem is ok-ish).

Ulthwe and then Alaitoc are probably the easiest to make use of. Saim Hann and Iyanden are a bit weird to me for reasons already explained in this thread.

Bharring wrote:
Of the special characters in the CWE book, though, isn't Eldrad the only one who's not available to Alaitoc the other 8-ish are available to Alaitoc.

Eldrad is Ulthwe locked.
Yriel is Iyandan locked.
Illic is Alaitoc locked.
Shadowguide (blackstone fortress) is Biel-Tan locked.

All the other "named" characters are Phoenix Lords and can be taken by any Craftworld, though if they are the WL they don't get a trait. Phoenix Lords also do not benefit from the Craftworld Traits.

The main thing that puts Alaitoc above the rest right now, is that you can stack -1's to hit on multiple units through special abilities, psychic powers, relics and stratagems. You can do this to a lesser extent with other craftworlds, but, the huge defensive buff this gives you're entire army is just incredible. Especially when paired with prepared positions.

I had forgotten about SHadowguide, and had thought Yriel was Alaitoc for some reason. My bad.

Doesn't really change which trait is best, though.

Anyone not voting Alaitoc is suspect

 Marmatag wrote:
Anyone not voting Alaitoc is suspect

So, while i agree, i can see the case for Ulthwe. However, it 100% depends on the list you are running.

Alaitoc is easily the best, no question about it.

However, if you were planning a wraith heavy list, I'd like to point out one thing I didn't see being mentioned. Whilst the Iyanden trait is not the greatest, their stratagem is pretty decent for a wraith heavy army. It increases the range of the Spiritseer's Spirit Mark to 12" and allows the affected unit to re-roll all misses instead of just ones.

 Imateria wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Any faction if trait is -1 you know that's the most competive.

Nah.

Ultramarines > Raven Guard (and Raven Guard was only ever competitive for the stratagem, not the -1). Same for Mars > Stygies VIII.

I don't think I've ever even seen or heard of the -1 Knight, despite everyone and their dog playing Imperial Knights.

Both of those examples are massively skewed by special characters that do a lot of work (Guilliman and Tiggy for Ultras and Cawl for Mars), and in the latters case Stygies was overtaking Mars until the last FAQ.

The only reason is these fraction units have more toughness and more wounds. For eldar with the massive T3 every hit hurts and 6+++ is not reliable enough in most cases. Last game for 20 wounds i saved like 1, so no i think ultwe need to give something more.
Most of the CWE traits are unimpressive and situational and good for couple of units.
Bel-Tan +1 leadership pretty useless, reroll 1 is not as good when you consider that is only good for troops, guardians and dire avengers are expensive, yes big unit of guardians can do something, but there are better ways to give them reroll and you don`t really wanna charge with guardians. Its fun that boys are less expensive and better than guardians at everything.
Iyanden look good on paper, but WK and WL were overprised and troops usually you don`t need to be fearless. I hope the point decrease will make it viable.
SAIN-HANN is only for bikers, after WR point decrease its more useful and extra charge is decent for SP, but you can leave without it, since warlock with quicken is usually included.

The CFW warlords traits are also not impressive, so there is a reason players run to Ynnari without second tough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Alaitoc is easily the best, no question about it.

However, if you were planning a wraith heavy list, I'd like to point out one thing I didn't see being mentioned. Whilst the Iyanden trait is not the greatest, their stratagem is pretty decent for a wraith heavy army. It increases the range of the Spiritseer's Spirit Mark to 12" and allows the affected unit to re-roll all misses instead of just ones.

The other thing that is not typed is that wraithseer got point decrease, now its 100 points and that is insane for 12w model.

 Irubius wrote:

Well, I know that Alaitoc is famous for their rangers. But which units synergize well with the Alaitoc playstyle? If I understand correctly the -1 is only from 12 inches (or more)?

There are 2 things you want. The first is long range since ideally you want to be hitting the enemy from more than 12" to maximise your defensive buff. This is not essential on all units as anything that attacks on the flanks will likely still get the bonus against a lot of shooting even if there are some enemy within the 12" zone.

The second thing you want to look for are units that also get a native -1 to hit. This is because stacking negative to-hit modifiers amplifies their effectiveness. If you can get a -2 to hit then suddenly Tau and Imperial Guard are only hitting you on 6s!

Competitive Alaitoc lists usually include plenty of Rangers (36" range and a native -1 to hit). Hemlocks and Crimson Hunters (-1 to Hit). Dark Reapers and Fire Prisms (both Long ranged), Warlocks/Spiritseers with the Conceal power (for an extra -1 to Hit). Relics like the Shimmerplume Helm and Stratagems like Lightning Fast reflexes are also good as they provide further -1s to hit.

I am not saying that you must include these units and no others. One of the great things about Eldar is their fantastic selection of beautiful models. But from a competitive point of view, a sprinkling of some of these units will certainly go a long way to maximising your Craftworld trait.

Marin wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Any faction if trait is -1 you know that's the most competive.

Nah.

Ultramarines > Raven Guard (and Raven Guard was only ever competitive for the stratagem, not the -1). Same for Mars > Stygies VIII.

I don't think I've ever even seen or heard of the -1 Knight, despite everyone and their dog playing Imperial Knights.

Both of those examples are massively skewed by special characters that do a lot of work (Guilliman and Tiggy for Ultras and Cawl for Mars), and in the latters case Stygies was overtaking Mars until the last FAQ.

The only reason is these fraction units have more toughness and more wounds. For eldar with the massive T3 every hit hurts and 6+++ is not reliable enough in most cases. Last game for 20 wounds i saved like 1, so no i think ultwe need to give something more.
Most of the CWE traits are unimpressive and situational and good for couple of units.
Bel-Tan +1 leadership pretty useless, reroll 1 is not as good when you consider that is only good for troops, guardians and dire avengers are expensive, yes big unit of guardians can do something, but there are better ways to give them reroll and you don`t really wanna charge with guardians. Its fun that boys are less expensive and better than guardians at everything.
Iyanden look good on paper, but WK and WL were overprised and troops usually you don`t need to be fearless. I hope the point decrease will make it viable.
SAIN-HANN is only for bikers, after WR point decrease its more useful and extra charge is decent for SP, but you can leave without it, since warlock with quicken is usually included.

The CFW warlords traits are also not impressive, so there is a reason players run to Ynnari without second tough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Alaitoc is easily the best, no question about it.

However, if you were planning a wraith heavy list, I'd like to point out one thing I didn't see being mentioned. Whilst the Iyanden trait is not the greatest, their stratagem is pretty decent for a wraith heavy army. It increases the range of the Spiritseer's Spirit Mark to 12" and allows the affected unit to re-roll all misses instead of just ones.

The other thing that is not typed is that wraithseer got point decrease, now its 100 points and that is insane for 12w model.

I didn't think that Ynnari was still a thing.

Throw darts at any codex with 'Aeldari' anywhere in the name or description, build a list out of what you hit, win tournaments.

It's been the same list building strat since 7th.

ERJAK wrote:
Throw darts at any codex with 'Aeldari' anywhere in the name or description, build a list out of what you hit, win tournaments.

It's been the same list building strat since 7th.

I had an Ynnari force back in 7th that was based on mostly Harlequins led by Yvraine. And yes, Dark reapers.

Well, frankly, I've voted for Biel-Tan.
My current army consists mostly of units with shuriken weapons.
Then re-rolls of 1 to hit is gorgeous.
Alaitoc is simply not my playstyle.
I couldnt complain about this army, my 5 games (all against vets) were really successful (SW, AdMech, 2x Deathwatch, DW). Four were tabled in 5 rounds. Cheers.

ERJAK wrote:
Throw darts at any codex with 'Aeldari' anywhere in the name or description, build a list out of what you hit, win tournaments.

It's been the same list building strat since 7th.

Have fun trying to win with Voidweavers, Hellions and Striking Scorpions.

 Imateria wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Throw darts at any codex with 'Aeldari' anywhere in the name or description, build a list out of what you hit, win tournaments.

It's been the same list building strat since 7th.

Have fun trying to win with Voidweavers, Hellions and Striking Scorpions.

If the rest of the list is reapers and s spears, the list could work. It maybe wouldn't win ETC, but in store games it would still be blasting through most of the armies in the game. Double that if it is run as inari or has some DE added too.

ERJAK wrote:
Throw darts at any codex with 'Aeldari' anywhere in the name or description, build a list out of what you hit, win tournaments.

It's been the same list building strat since 7th.

That may have been vaguely true in 7th, but it's definitely not true in 8th. If you have a good aim and can hit reapers, hemlocks, spears etc every time then you'll win plenty but craftworlds is a lot more average overall than people think. Why do you think all ynarri lists look so similar?