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Are you sure - they specfically confirm you can take the Fist of Vengeance and just reprint it "for your convenience"

 Mr Morden wrote:
Are you sure - they specfically confirm you can take the Fist of Vengeance and just reprint it "for your convenience"

The first few paragraphs of the article spell it out. Either you use the IF Tactics and the rules from the codex, or you use the rules from the article. Why they relisted things such as Tenacious Survivor, Bolter Drill, or the Fist of Vengeance is beyond me.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
That is only affording you the ability to take things like the Shield Eternal or Teeth of Terra. Or the ability to use Linebreaker Bombardment.

I mean, Storm of Fire is still pretty potent, even moreso now that you can get +1 to hit situationally. WotA could be valuable too.

It'll be interesting to see how one plays around with the tactics since casualties can turn it off on you, while your own casualties turn it back on.

Lemondish wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
That is only affording you the ability to take things like the Shield Eternal or Teeth of Terra. Or the ability to use Linebreaker Bombardment.

I mean, Storm of Fire is still pretty potent, even moreso now that you can get +1 to hit situationally. WotA could be valuable too.

It'll be interesting to see how one plays around with the tactics since casualties can turn it off on you, while your own casualties turn it back on.

Storm of Fire is on 6+ to Wound, not to Hit. But still, it negates the hit penalty for Thunder Hammers and Power Fists against groups.

Really, the big winners for this are small units like Aggressors, Bike Squads, Company Veterans, Inceptors, and Characters.

This trait seems very thematically appropriate for Crimson Fists. But for regular marines and intercessors, it seems you are still better off with Death Watch? I suppose if you're going heavy on Dreads and Aggressors then it could be worthwhile.

Aggressors, Bike Squads, Company Veterans, Inceptors, and Characters.

Attackbikes must be pretty good then... *Cries in white scars*

 Asherian Command wrote:

Aggressors, Bike Squads, Company Veterans, Inceptors, and Characters.

Attackbikes must be pretty good then... *Cries in white scars*

Yeah, that +1 to hit will negate the -1 for moving with the heavy weapon. Not too shabby.

Centurion Devastators will be killing with the best of them with a 2+ to hit, even when on the move.

It is still going to be hard to get the bonus on big things that your army is going to want to be killing the most though. They will wreck hordes, but won't do much against other armies until they start taking casualties.

Yeah, that +1 to hit will negate the -1 for moving with the heavy weapon. Not too shabby.

If it was similar to how levis worked, for every 5 unit your outnumbered you get +1 attack, would be awesome. It would be fluffy and would only punish armies that utilize -1 to hit. AKA eldar.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
That is only affording you the ability to take things like the Shield Eternal or Teeth of Terra. Or the ability to use Linebreaker Bombardment.

I mean, Storm of Fire is still pretty potent, even moreso now that you can get +1 to hit situationally. WotA could be valuable too.

It'll be interesting to see how one plays around with the tactics since casualties can turn it off on you, while your own casualties turn it back on.

Storm of Fire is on 6+ to Wound, not to Hit. But still, it negates the hit penalty for Thunder Hammers and Power Fists against groups.

Really, the big winners for this are small units like Aggressors, Bike Squads, Company Veterans, Inceptors, and Characters.

Those units are the winners I would've picked as well. Centurions aren't one to forget either. Assault Centurions do still have their Hurricane Bolters after all, and Bolter Drill + the Tactics would put a good amount of shots on something.

So I know the article made mention of Dreads counting as 5 models to count if they got the bonus, but no mention of other measurements means you never get a bonus to hit vs a Knight. That's super stupid.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
That is only affording you the ability to take things like the Shield Eternal or Teeth of Terra. Or the ability to use Linebreaker Bombardment.

I mean, Storm of Fire is still pretty potent, even moreso now that you can get +1 to hit situationally. WotA could be valuable too.

It'll be interesting to see how one plays around with the tactics since casualties can turn it off on you, while your own casualties turn it back on.

Storm of Fire is on 6+ to Wound, not to Hit. But still, it negates the hit penalty for Thunder Hammers and Power Fists against groups.

Really, the big winners for this are small units like Aggressors, Bike Squads, Company Veterans, Inceptors, and Characters.

Those units are the winners I would've picked as well. Centurions aren't one to forget either. Assault Centurions do still have their Hurricane Bolters after all, and Bolter Drill + the Tactics would put a good amount of shots on something.

So I know the article made mention of Dreads counting as 5 models to count if they got the bonus, but no mention of other measurements means you never get a bonus to hit vs a Knight. That's super stupid.

Agreed. It doesn't allow the bonus to trigger against big things like tanks, monsters, or Knights. Slay the Tyrant will give you the bonus against character versions of those things though, so bye bye Pask and those Character Knights.

Don't forget Pedro exists. Sticking a primaris lieutenant with the new bolter next to him would create a cheap unit with a lot of firepower since you're probably already taking one for the rerolls. Also, both of them would be protected as characters.

Pedro also combos with the new tactic and bolter drill. You could get a lot of shots off with that.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
That is only affording you the ability to take things like the Shield Eternal or Teeth of Terra. Or the ability to use Linebreaker Bombardment.

I mean, Storm of Fire is still pretty potent, even moreso now that you can get +1 to hit situationally. WotA could be valuable too.

It'll be interesting to see how one plays around with the tactics since casualties can turn it off on you, while your own casualties turn it back on.

Storm of Fire is on 6+ to Wound, not to Hit. But still, it negates the hit penalty for Thunder Hammers and Power Fists against groups.

Really, the big winners for this are small units like Aggressors, Bike Squads, Company Veterans, Inceptors, and Characters.

Those units are the winners I would've picked as well. Centurions aren't one to forget either. Assault Centurions do still have their Hurricane Bolters after all, and Bolter Drill + the Tactics would put a good amount of shots on something.

So I know the article made mention of Dreads counting as 5 models to count if they got the bonus, but no mention of other measurements means you never get a bonus to hit vs a Knight. That's super stupid.

Agreed. It doesn't allow the bonus to trigger against big things like tanks, monsters, or Knights. Slay the Tyrant will give you the bonus against character versions of those things though, so bye bye Pask and those Character Knights.

That's at least a situational benefit, but the fact a regular Knight of all things doesn't trigger it kinda feels...like GW didn't think that out. At all.

Still anything to make Centurions look better is something I'll take. Talk about a super giant fall from grace. Hell, even Devastator Centurions would be slightly below mediocre with the bonus, and they won't have the redundancy of the Omniscope + Imperial Fists Tactics

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Still anything to make Centurions look better is something I'll take.

Nothing short of the complete redesign of the model will make the Centurions look better.

Honestly, the Chapter Tactics need something to address big models like Knights. I guess being able to take out their IG support would help, but why are you wasting your time on that in the first place? It should have activated on if a single unit had more than 15 wounds or something. Nothing says against all odds than a squad of Marines shooting down a Knight.

it's def themed against hordes ... not much lore between CF & renegade IKs prob

 aracersss wrote:
it's def themed against hordes ... not much lore between CF & renegade IKs prob

Yeah, but killing big things is definitely thematically appropriate too. We can still deal with character versions of big things, so it isn't the end of the world. I guess I will have to plink away a Knights with my Hellblasters using Heroes of Rynn's World and Devastators.

I definitely think this CT is extremely fluffy and I don't play in extremely competitive environments, so fluffy and halfways potent is good enough for me. I might add a Dreadnought in my list just for kicks now. A Heavy Onslaught Cannon and Onslaught Cannon Redemptor would be pretty sweet.

I think the anti-horde thing without bonuses against big things is fine and thematic. There's no need to turn Crimson Fists into Mary Sues. No army should be devoid of hard counters. Being good at everything is what makes Imperial Knights so irritating at present.

Banville wrote:
I think the anti-horde thing without bonuses against big things is fine and thematic. There's no need to turn Crimson Fists into Mary Sues. No army should be devoid of hard counters. Being good at everything is what makes Imperial Knights so irritating at present.

Well, sticking them with a bunch of tanks that didn't get CT to begin with is probably the way to go. And it isn't like their weapons suddenly stopped working against big things, they just aren't as effective. And those big things weren't getting cover, so ignoring cover did little to nothing against them too.

I am just saying that it would make sense for them to be have the bonus against big things as well. It isn't that way, unless they are shooting character versions (and that requires a Stratagem), so it is fine. Crimson Fists are in a good place, I think.

dsraider1 wrote:
Don't forget Pedro exists. Sticking a primaris lieutenant with the new bolter next to him would create a cheap unit with a lot of firepower since you're probably already taking one for the rerolls. Also, both of them would be protected as characters.

Pedro also combos with the new tactic and bolter drill. You could get a lot of shots off with that.

With any luck, Pedro will be the next Rubiconed chapter master.

Lemondish wrote:

dsraider1 wrote:
Don't forget Pedro exists. Sticking a primaris lieutenant with the new bolter next to him would create a cheap unit with a lot of firepower since you're probably already taking one for the rerolls. Also, both of them would be protected as characters.

Pedro also combos with the new tactic and bolter drill. You could get a lot of shots off with that.

With any luck, Pedro will be the next Rubiconed chapter master.

That would be fantastic. A new pose and some Honour Guard to go with him.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Still anything to make Centurions look better is something I'll take.

Nothing short of the complete redesign of the model will make the Centurions look better.

Honestly the models are fine as long as you ignore the padding on the legs. The models then start to make sense.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Honestly the models are fine as long as you ignore the padding on the legs. The models then start to make sense.

No. The guy inside doesn't have arms. And they're hideous regardless.

depends on the wording, but could that mean that hellblasters and inceptors with plasma, or anything that can spam plasma for that matter can overcharge without killing themselves if the unit they are shooting has twice as many models as them?

Also, inceptors in general could be nasty with that.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Honestly the models are fine as long as you ignore the padding on the legs. The models then start to make sense.

No. The guy inside doesn't have arms. And they're hideous regardless.

Aren't the arms just tucked inside breastplate, with the main suit "arms" just being robotic limbs?

Which is frankly something that should be applied to TDA design too, especially if GW insists on making their shoulders with ears still...

 Irbis wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Honestly the models are fine as long as you ignore the padding on the legs. The models then start to make sense.

No. The guy inside doesn't have arms. And they're hideous regardless.

Aren't the arms just tucked inside breastplate, with the main suit "arms" just being robotic limbs?

Which is frankly something that should be applied to TDA design too, especially if GW insists on making their shoulders with ears still...

It's actually entirely possible to produce a version of TDA that maintains the basic silhouette while also being able to fit a vaguely human-shaped person inside without breaking the spine and dislocating both shoulders. It's not possible to make a version of the Centurion that doesn't look silly as soon as you realise there's meant to be a whole, almost-fully-armoured Marine inside there somewhere.

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's actually entirely possible to produce a version of TDA that maintains the basic silhouette while also being able to fit a vaguely human-shaped person inside without breaking the spine and dislocating both shoulders.

Is it?



Maybe it's just me but I can't see how shoulders level with top of your skull and pelvis gap so wide is supposed to work.

Mostly the heads in TDA just should have been situated higher.

That's pretty old model. Newer ones have an abdomen and their arms attach lower. Sill a bit weird, but way less so. The Custodes terminators have even better proportions; I'm hoping for Primaris terminators with similar anatomy.

None of which has anything to do with the actual topic...

How effective do you guys think dropping a group of plasma inceptors off to the side of the enemy warlord, overcharging them, and using Slay The Tyrant would be?

Would it be worth keeping a squad of 3 around for?