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That's quite a post! I'm on a phone so can't easily address all your points but you said some very interesting stuff. Regarding sustainable farming taking 5x more land do you think that difference would be negligible if we converted land for cattle (that was useable) to instead host crops?

I have often wondered how my fitness levels would change if I started adding a little meat to my diet, not sure how my body would react to the change though!

I am not an expert on sustainable farming...but it is all about different crops and crop rotation and to some extent animal manure. So animal byproducts are needed. I am sure you can find a model somewhere that doesn't need it....but I doubt that all junk land is in areas where you can find all the components for a good sustainable system.

weather, land quality, water, resources, etc.

Drive through the vast plains out west and you could not really grow any grain. even the scrub grasses rarely get over a foot or 2 high.

I had a minister from the Midwest give a sermon how the Ukraine has 6 feet of topsoil. He grew up in an area where 6 inches was norm. He did not understand how we could farm with our 1" of topsoil. I think there are like 23 good areas on the planet identified with good growing soils. The USA has like 20% of them. They are limited and they are not everywhere.

In my opinion, most people in North America do eat far too much meat and far too much cheap meat by that. The average North American diet and lifestyle is hardly healthy. We could certainly cut the average North American diet of 70% of its meat and replace it vegetables, fruits and nuts and it would probably far better. Plus we could also improve a lot the life and death of our cattle. Right now, the living conditions of a lot of those animals is abyssal to save cost.

About the animal farms. I am against cruel animal farms as much as a heated PETA crusader. It is just that local farms get swept up in the rhetoric.

I have only seen photos of big corporate farms....never in person so I don't know much.

The farms out west have herds in useless land, The cattle ive seen in the south/Florida is pretty much useless swampland {and they look horribly underfed!!} The farms around the north east and great lakes area tend to have herds on hillsides and in the woods. NONE of that is very good for farming even if it is fertile.

Now Dairy farms tend to place herds on fairly nice flat and fertile land. So I cannot defend those practices. I am not familiar with day to day care and treatment/production of those animals. I do think they try to give them easy non calorie draining areas so more can be focused on milk.

Same with the bigger farms. You do not want your herds moving around on hills and such as they will burn thru too much energy moving their large sizes around and cut into the profits. So I imagine that big corporate farms have those numbers in mind and use the best land for their herds to maximize calories.

Dairy farms tend to rotate their fields between two crops, usually corn and alfalfa, hay, and grazing land. This keeps the land from burning out from overuse on one crop and usually provides more than enough of the materials they need to keep their herds fed and such. They also tend to have areas that are not suitable for crops due to steep slopes, rocky terrain, or being part of the local flood plain.

Veganuary? This is a pre-emptive "I'm out!".

 Kroem wrote:
It would be interesting to find out exactly what vegans eat! I couldn't go without milk in my tea or an egg at breakfast though...

I think something like 'meat free mondays' is much more reasonable, and would be better for forming longer term habits.

A true vegan doesn't just eliminate meat from their diets, it's EVERYTHING even peripherally animal related. Not only that, but they are supposed to not wear anything made with animal byproducts or anything even inconveniences an animal in the process. THIS is why I am not afraid in the least to call any vegan I meet wearing leather ANYTHING a hypocrite.



Also, how can you tell if someone is a vegan?

They will tell you. Repeatedly.

The quote says to eat vegan because of a love of animals...I love cows!! And pigs! And chickens!! Especially when they lay between a pair of buns and with peppers and vinegar rubbed all over them. Mmmmmmm. Meat. Vegans are evil.

epronovost wrote:
In my opinion, most people in North America do eat far too much meat and far too much cheap meat by that. The average North American diet and lifestyle is hardly healthy. We could certainly cut the average North American diet of 70% of its meat and replace it vegetables, fruits and nuts and it would probably far better. Plus we could also improve a lot the life and death of our cattle. Right now, the living conditions of a lot of those animals is abyssal to save cost.

This is my opinion as well. I work swing shift and some weeks I don't eat meat except for weekends - people can get by healthily on a lot less meat, but I've seen people struggle with their nutrition on a vegatarian diet, so I think a omnivorous diet is still the best option for most people.

Definitely meat is too cheap and this causes a lot of food waste as a result, which is tragic considering how much resources go into making meat.

 Just Tony wrote:


A true vegan doesn't just eliminate meat from their diets, it's EVERYTHING even peripherally animal related. Not only that, but they are supposed to not wear anything made with animal byproducts or anything even inconveniences an animal in the process. THIS is why I am not afraid in the least to call any vegan I meet wearing leather ANYTHING a hypocrite.

Watch out, there is such a thing as synthetic leather, it's almost impossible to differenciate from ral leather at the naked eye and far, far more popular then real leather as real leather cost a fortune. If you have a leather jacket that didn't cost a few hundred dollars, you have a jacket in synthetic leather not a real one. Don't insult people unless you are sure it's real leather. The same goes for furr, the vast mojority of it is fake since real furr costs a fortune.

Synthetic leather is just awful. I'd rather not have a 'leather' item if I could only have pleather

epronovost wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:


A true vegan doesn't just eliminate meat from their diets, it's EVERYTHING even peripherally animal related. Not only that, but they are supposed to not wear anything made with animal byproducts or anything even inconveniences an animal in the process. THIS is why I am not afraid in the least to call any vegan I meet wearing leather ANYTHING a hypocrite.

Watch out, there is such a thing as synthetic leather, it's almost impossible to differenciate from ral leather at the naked eye and far, far more popular then real leather as real leather cost a fortune. If you have a leather jacket that didn't cost a few hundred dollars, you have a jacket in synthetic leather not a real one. Don't insult people unless you are sure it's real leather. The same goes for furr, the vast mojority of it is fake since real furr costs a fortune.

Actually, fake leather is super easy to spot, as it doesn't smell of leather. Real leather can also vary wildly in price, depending in the weight and quality of the hide used, and can be had relatively cheaply, especially in smaller items like belts or shoes, to the point where using artificial product isn't worthwhile.

There's actually more of an issue with fur. Many items sold as fake fur are, in fact, real pelts farmed in some pretty horrendous conditions and sold into the industry as fake, so even the manufacturers and retailers don't know. It's nearly impossible to distinguish between them casually either. There's no distinctive smell or anything like leather, one has to either examine the fibers microscopically or examine the base of the hair where it attaches and know what you're looking for.

Speaking of synthetic leather, yal see that crazy fungus leather made of kombucha?

i recall seeing a yt vid about it and man the initial prototype looks like something out of a horror film.

the garments made of it look like tanned human skin :X

also how far deep do vegans go concerning animal products?

i used to weld and we always put on our leather welding gear. would a buildings, structures and equipment that were welded be considered non vegan? lots of industry works use leather gloves for various reasons.

just an honest curiosity.

In my honest opinion, they do JUST ENOUGH to give them the good feels. That's it.

I tend to avoid clothes with leather in just because I do not like the smell that they have. A few coats I have spotted at the mall have coyote fur in them but other than that it is mostly synthetic stuff these days.

Not using anything with animal products in is a tricky path to follow though I bet! So many items have had something to do with animals even if it is just using a weird glue as a binding agent.

Beaver Musk, A.K.A. Castoreum, is probably the least avoidable animal product in the world. It is used in perfume, food, liquer, and even cigarettes.

 Commander Cain wrote:


Not using anything with animal products in is a tricky path to follow though I bet!.

Strictly speaking, even some plant products, including what I'd imagine are fairly important components of a vegan diet like avocados and almonds, are not technically vegan.

That's because bees don't naturally pollinate the plantations as they're too big, so hives are moved around in trucks to "force" the bees to work the needed areas. By, an admittedly fairly strict and literal, definition, the bees are being exploited by man to produce that food, rendering it non-vegan.

 Just Tony wrote:
In my honest opinion, they do JUST ENOUGH to give them the good feels. That's it.

Isn't how you yourself approach morality. You do just enough to feel like you are not doing anything wrong and then you do what pleases you the most?

I think that's pretty much everybody handle ethic and morality on a day-to-day basis.

It isn't an equation. Most people just don't feel like they are doing anything wrong at all (or what they do wrong is excused by whatever rationalization).

They don't 'do just enough' to achieve some sort of fake balance, which then allows them to do as they see fit.

They just start with doing as they see fit, and work on any necessary rationalizations afterwards, if they feel like they've crossed whatever invisible lines their particular moral system has.


Warping this all around to not eating meat is just navel gazing of the most self-indulgent sort.

I'm not sure the 'if you're not vegan enough then it's a waste of time and you're a hypocrite' position is anything more than handwaving. There aren't many people out there thinking 'I'd love to be vegan but manuring and forced bee migration means I can't even eat vegan root vegetables or avocados so why try?'. It's an excuse and nothing more.

The assertion that someone cares more about developing world exploitation of humans than developed world animals holds more weight but I think it's still usually deployed as a justification for not doing something rather than a reason to do something else.

No. Generally, if you eat meat, you do so because you want to and not because your heirarchy of moral acceptabilities prioritises attention to something other than animals.

However, that's fine! There's no fundamental problem with doing what is convenient for you or your family - whether that's for reasons of time, financial abilities, health reasons etc.

'Shut up vegan, I love bacon' is juvenile and tedious, but it's every bit as valid as citing the complexities of really living life free of animal exploitation, and usually far more honest.

You know that something is wrong when people say that something is ''too cheap''...
If it is cheap, it is affordable for people, even poor people. For me it is a good thing.
I eat meat twice a day.

No. Generally, if you eat meat, you do so because you want to and not because your heirarchy of moral acceptabilities prioritises attention to something other than animals.

No, see, this is still navel gazing. Generally people eat meat because human are omnivores and there isn't anything wrong with that. It isn't a question of 'moral hierarchies.' It's a matter of biology.

Voss wrote:

No. Generally, if you eat meat, you do so because you want to and not because your heirarchy of moral acceptabilities prioritises attention to something other than animals.

No, see, this is still navel gazing. Generally people eat meat because human are omnivores and there isn't anything wrong with that. It isn't a question of 'moral hierarchies.' It's a matter of biology.

I'm not sure if you're trying to find something to disagree with here because you aren't refuting anything in my post, nor disagreeing directly with anything I said.

Insofar as they have inherited eating patterns derived from a combination of ability, availability, and cultural proclivities, yes people eat meat because they're omnivores, but not in the sense that they make specific choices based on their species' ability to ingest and digest food types. They make those choices on the basis of what they want to eat - and that's fine.

It's a nice thought but one that I wouldn't commit to.

I will be glad to try to make smarter choices in my meals as to not eat overly processed foods.

I went on a first date last night and when we got to the restaurant it turned out she was vegan. I still ordered chicken, she didn't make a fuss. Maybe it's only internet vegans who bang on about it.

It's a first date, dude. As time goes on and she makes her attempt to mold you into something she wants a little more, THEN you'll get "meat is murder" sung to you. Repeatedly. Personal experience on this one.

 Riquende wrote:
I went on a first date last night and when we got to the restaurant it turned out she was vegan. I still ordered chicken, she didn't make a fuss. Maybe it's only internet vegans who bang on about it.

Yeah I've never met the stereotype vegan in person and I have a lot of vegan friends, they are all great people, cheap dates as well!

 godardc wrote:
You know that something is wrong when people say that something is ''too cheap''...
If it is cheap, it is affordable for people, even poor people. For me it is a good thing.
I eat meat twice a day.

The issue arises when the low price is arrived at by making significant compromises in quality or welfare. If a meat product can only be sold because the animals are kept in horrendous conditions and live a life of fear and pain and the subsequent contents of that meat product are made with the absolute dregs of the carcass in order to hit the target price, then it's too cheap.

 Riquende wrote:
Maybe it's only internet vegans who bang on about it.

IMO it's not surprising that you'll hear all about the crusading vegans who make a point of evangelising to anyone who'll listen because that's what they do, but those who're quiet about it and just get on with it generally you wont hear from because they wont mention it unless necessary, add into the mix a degree of exaggeration for effect for good measure.

It's not unique to veganism by any stretch, pretty much any kind of dietary or other lifestyle choice will have a generally irritating few amongst their number who will introduce that fact quicker than they'll introduce themselves and try to convert you to the cause.

I was a strict vegetarian for more than a few years at one point, but I generally kept that to myself unless I was invited to someone's for a meal or someone offered meat-products, in which case it was only reasonable IMO to explain that I wasn't being rude or difficult and where possible pre-warn them (I never expected special treatment either, I always made it clear I was happy to eat whatever vegetables were being served, just without the meat).

A true vegan doesn't just eliminate meat from their diets, it's EVERYTHING even peripherally animal related.

From my understanding, it's not that strict. Veganism AFAIK is a self imposed restriction on eating or using animal products, so whilst a "True" vegan shouldn't wear leather (Although I'd argue that it's still possible to follow a Vegan diet and wear leather without necessarily being a hypocrite), eating fruit or vegetables that are grown with a certain amount of other animal involvement should be OK (The example of using bees to pollinate plantations for example), although if an individual were to avoid those too they'd probably be going above-and-beyond as far as veganism went. Otherwise pretty much everything is off limits.

That said, I did and still do take issue with the "I'm a vegetarian, except for...." crowd. If what follows that statement is any form of animal life you're not a vegetarian, you're just a picky omnivore. If you're a pescetarian that's fine, but call yourself that rather than claiming to be a vegetarian because fish aren't plants.

Voss wrote:
...and there isn't anything wrong with that.

that's a moral statement.