Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Speaking of false appeals to authority...

Very few general practitioners, at least in the U.K., U.S.A. and Canada, receive any formal education or training in nutrition. For sure speak to a qualified healthcare professional about nutrition. I'd advise against seeing your GP for that purpose. If you must, maybe ensure they're qualified first.

Nothing about his point was an appeal to authority.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Yes, I apply exactly the same standard.

I have a fair amount of formal education and training in such matters, far more than your average GP has, so I'm able to confidently state that there is not a nutrient your body needs that cannot be provided for on a vegan diet. Not a single one.

Try Veganuary and educate yourself.

Vitamin D?

After your last post, it didn't need to be confirmed that you don't actually know what an appeal to authority is.

Vegan Vitamin D is on the market and freely available.

Try Veganuary and educate yourself.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Try Veganuary and educate yourself.

This bit, this bit right here? That's why this whole post is counter-productive if you actually want people to try a vegan diet, because it comes off as incredibly condescending.

It's entirely possible for someone to be thoroughly educated on these matters and still, shock-horror, not agree with you.

EDIT: Also, I hereforth declare this to be Baconanuary, and I will be thoroughly trying bacon as often as possible over the next month. Just for you chief.

It is this holier-than-thou superiority complex surrounding veganism that bothers me more than the actual diet. Excomminicatus is doing a fine job demonstrating that.

That's very clever and very original. I'm sure nobody else ever thought of responding to a vegan by saying "mmm, bacon."

Try Veganuary and educate yourself.

 Excommunicatus wrote:


I have a fair amount of formal education and training in such matters, far more than your average GP has, so I'm able to confidently state that there is not a nutrient your body needs that cannot be provided for on a vegan diet. Not a single one.

I dunno, I asked Google and it told me thus:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-supplements-for-vegans

I have also asked Vegans the same question in the past and they all, without fail, take some sort of supplements.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
It is this holier-than-thou superiority complex surrounding veganism that bothers me more than the actual diet. Excomminicatus is doing a fine job demonstrating that.

That superiority complex exists only in the heads of people who wish to dismiss the topic without thinking about it.

At no point have I alleged that being a vegan is in any way superior. I have said that it would be swell if you tried it for a month.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 filbert wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:


I have a fair amount of formal education and training in such matters, far more than your average GP has, so I'm able to confidently state that there is not a nutrient your body needs that cannot be provided for on a vegan diet. Not a single one.

I dunno, I asked Google and it told me thus:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-supplements-for-vegans

I have also asked Vegans the same question in the past and they all, without fail, take some sort of supplements.

Coolbeans.

Point out where I said a vegan diet doesn't include vitamins and supplements.

I take a B12 supplement daily. I consider it part of my diet.

Do you want to embark on a long and ultimately futile argument about the semantics of it, are do you want to accept that every nutrient your body needs is freely available in a vegan form, a position your link confirms?

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Nostromodamus wrote:
It is this holier-than-thou superiority complex surrounding veganism that bothers me more than the actual diet. Excomminicatus is doing a fine job demonstrating that.

That superiority complex exists only in the heads of people who wish to dismiss the topic without thinking about it.

At no point have I alleged that being a vegan is in any way superior. I have said that it would be swell if you tried it for a month.

When would you recommend something to complete strangers unless you sincerely felt it was in some way better than what they're already doing?

Still, you have at least fulfilled the enduring cliché about "how do you find out if somebody's vegan?"

Try BBQuary and educate yourself.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

After your last post, it didn't need to be confirmed that you don't actually know what an appeal to authority is.

Vegan Vitamin D is on the market and freely available.

Try Veganuary and educate yourself.

Yes, I do. So supplements.. So not part of the actual diet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you need to supplement your diet for it to be healthy, (eg not merely using them as extras for fitness etc) then its inferior to a regular diet.

 Excommunicatus wrote:


I'm able to confidently state that there is not a nutrient your body needs that cannot be provided for on a vegan diet. Not a single one.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Coolbeans.

Point out where I said a vegan diet doesn't include vitamins and supplements.

I take a B12 supplement daily. I consider it part of my diet.

Do you want to embark on a long and ultimately futile argument about the semantics of it, are do you want to accept that every nutrient your body needs is freely available in a vegan form, a position your link confirms?

You don't see the disparity in those two quotes? And no, having to take a supplement to provide the nutrients your body needs is not part of a diet.

For what it's worth, I don't have a problem with veganism, I don't have a problem with trying to emphasise the alleged health benefits of it. It's just the wanky, right-on, self-righteousness of it all that really gets on my tits.

I just wish vegans would be honest; that the diet is restrictive and there are compromises that need to be in place instead of trying to smoke screen and obfuscate.

Taking suppliments shouldn’t be a stand in for proper nutrition from eating actual food. If the food in said diet can’t provide everything you need, it’s a gak diet.

Incidentally, my brother has recently turned vegan, and he hasn’t stopped trying to push it onto everyone he knows. Just another aspect of his increasingly self righteous journey up inside his own arsehole.

Supplement. Singular. Like those vitamin supplements that millions of people eating an omnivorous diet also take and which, for some convenient reason, don't invalidate their diet. Again, it's still perfectly possible to get everything you need from a vegan diet without using supplements. It's just easier to take a supplement sometimes, just like it is with an omnivorous diet.

So y'all wanna deliberately miss the point and get bogged down in a totally-irrelevant semantic debate, eh?

I can't say I'm surprised.

FWIW, I eat BBQ and cheeses all the time. The idea that you can't BBQ without meat and that there are no cruelty-free cheeses is yet another invention of an uneducated mind.

Try Veganuary and educate yourself.

Actually, yes, I would quite like to get bogged down in semantics, as you put it. because that link I posted that you hand waved away suggested there are, in fact, a number of supplements that vegans must take that are not supplied by their diet. And you may well say many omnivorous people take supplements for whatever reason but the bald fact is; if they are eating a balanced diet, there is no need to take supplements whatsoever and that is the key here; a vegan diet is not balanced.

It is this sort of disingenuous and bad faith debate that harms your position quite frankly.

 filbert wrote:
Actually, yes, I would quite like to get bogged down in semantics, as you put it. because that link I posted that you hand waved away suggested there are, in fact, a number of supplements that vegans must take that are not supplied by their diet. And you may well say many omnivorous people take supplements for whatever reason but the bald fact is; if they are eating a balanced diet, there is no need to take supplements whatsoever and that is the key here; a vegan diet is not balanced.

It is this sort of disingenuous and bad faith debate that harms your positions quite frankly.

So I'll modify my statement to "there are no nutrients your body needs that are not available in a vegan form" and your entire 'argument' goes away.

Do feel free to continue pretending that one vegan using a phrasing that you personally don't care for invalidates the entire concept of veganism, though.

That just yells good faith.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
FWIW, I eat BBQ and cheeses all the time. The idea that you can't BBQ without meat and that there are no cruelty-free cheeses is yet another invention of an uneducated mind.

Try Veganuary and educate yourself.

Heresy. "BBQ" that does not involve dead pig and vinegar sauce is not BBQ, it is an abomination before the Lord and the surest path to hell.

Try BBQuary and educate yourself.

What exactly is a cruelty free cheese that does not involve milk?

All I can say for the rest this topic is certainly giving reminding me of the usual vegans I knew.

A “cruelty-free cheese” is still a dairy product, no?

 Excommunicatus wrote:


So I'll modify my statement to "there are no nutrients your body needs that are not available in a vegan form" and your entire 'argument' goes away.

Do feel free to continue pretending that one vegan using a phrasing that you personally don't care for invalidates the entire concept of veganism, though.

That just yells good faith.

It's not phrasing I don't care for and neither is it 'just one vegan', it's every vegan I have ever tried to engage on the subject; it all gets hand-waved away 'oh it''s just a supplement' - it is a fundamental concept here. I eat what I want and I don't have to go to the chemists to buy pills to make up for what my diet lacks; that's what a balanced diet means. It means the nutrients I need to function as a human being are provided by the food I consume, not the pills I buy.

Whether you label those pills as 'vegan' or part of a 'vegan diet' in your head is irrelevant. And continuing to try and belittle and reduce that point just makes you look like an ass.

Goat cheese made from your own goat's milk?

Vegan "cheese" is something vaguely cheese flavored made out of plants or whatever, it isn't cheese at all.

Nostromodamus wrote:A “cruelty-free cheese” is still a dairy product, no?

No.

filbert wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:


So I'll modify my statement to "there are no nutrients your body needs that are not available in a vegan form" and your entire 'argument' goes away.

Do feel free to continue pretending that one vegan using a phrasing that you personally don't care for invalidates the entire concept of veganism, though.

That just yells good faith.

It's not phrasing I don't care for and neither is it 'just one vegan', it's every vegan I have ever tried to engage on the subject; it all gets hand-waved away 'oh it''s just a supplement' - it is a fundamental concept here. I eat what I want and I don't have to go to the chemists to buy pills to make up for what my diet lacks; that's what a balanced diet means. It means the nutrients I need to function as a human being are provided by the food I consume, not the pills I buy.

Whether you label those pills as 'vegan' or part of a 'vegan diet' in your head is irrelevant. And continuing to try and belittle and reduce that point just makes you look like an ass.

The chances are that you're actually massively deficient in lots of things but you just don't know it because you haven't asked anyone qualified or competent to give you a meaningful answer.

Dietary supplements are not a uniquely vegan thing and as with everyone who takes them, they're a convenience. Continue to bang on and on and on about them doesn't advance your cause. I can survive perfectly healthily on only nutrients that are available in vegan form. The fact that I used 'diet' and you don't like it has been corrected and was never relevant to begin with.

Engage with the point actually being made.

I have been a vegetarian since I was a kid and don't think I would ever start eating meat at this point, I do it just because I am a huge animal lover but it is nice to know that I am doing a tiny bit to help the environment at the same time.

Not sure I could go full vegan though, I am a naturally skinny person and have a tough time getting enough protein as it is and feel that cutting dairy out of my life would be, personally, an unhealthy life choice. Milk would be an easy substitute as I don't mind nut milks but cheese and eggs are an almost daily thing for me.

Anyone who is considering being vegan though should definitely pick this book up though.

https://www.amazon.ca/Joy-Vegan-Baking-Compassionate-Traditional/dp/1592332803/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1545864720&sr=8-1&keywords=the+joy+of+vegan+baking

Most vegan baked goods are pretty awful, cakes in particular are in a word, dusty. Everything I have tried from this book was awesome though which is quite an achievement as I have made many a failure from other books and websites!


I don't know what the science behind it is but a few of my friends have cut meat out of their diets for a month or so and always come to me saying that they feel a lot less groggy and healthy, easy way to start a diet if nothing else...


Also at the rate this thread is going I feel like dakka will soon have a ban on religion, politics, and vegans!

 Excommunicatus wrote:


The chances are that you're actually massively deficient in lots of things but you just don't know it because you haven't asked anyone qualified or competent to give you a meaningful answer.

Dietary supplements are not a uniquely vegan thing and as with everyone who takes them, they're a convenience. Continue to bang on and on and on about them doesn't advance your cause. I can survive perfectly healthily on only nutrients that are available in vegan form. The fact that I used 'diet' and you don't like it has been corrected and was never relevant to begin with.

Engage with the point actually being made.

Nope, you can try and deflect as much as you like and it is nothing to do with my like or dislike of the word diet or whatever you think it encompasses. The bottom line is that I do not need to take vitamin supplements to supply my body with what it needs and you, as a vegan do. However you try to dress that up by saying those same pills are a part of your 'diet' is neither here nor there. The bald fact is that as a vegan, you do not ingest all the correct vitamins and minerals from your choice of diet that your body requires to survive and must therefore receive them from external forms, usually in pill format.

Again, you can try and hand-wave as much as you like by claiming I'm not as healthy as I imagine and you may well be right but I don't think you can seriously claim that a balanced omnivorous diet is more deficient in minerals and minerals than a vegan diet. It simply is not true; a vegan must take supplements to survive because you cannot obtain certain vitamins from plants alone.

The Seitanic Spellbook is also a really good cookbook, but not for baked goods.

https://www.amazon.ca/Seitanic-Spellbook-Recipes-Rantings-Vegan-ebook/dp/B01BN6JXYS

Basically anything the Black Metal Vegan Chef does is worth paying attention to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 filbert wrote:

a vegan must take supplements to survive because you cannot obtain certain vitamins from plants alone.

That's an outright falsehood. The link that you provided says as much.

Try Veganuary and educate yourself.

I haven't claimed that a vegan necessarily gets better nutrition than an omnivore, but I am saying that unless you've recently been checked over by someone competent and qualified, your assumptions that you're perfectly healthy and eat a perfectly balanced diet are just that; assumptions.

And launching a position from the back of an assumption is... what's that phrase again?

Try BBQuary and educate yourself.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Try Veganuary and educate yourself.

I tried it for half an hour.

During those thirty minutes I read as much as I could about veganism. This included dietary and lifestyle changes. I educated myself.

I decided veganism was more about self important posturing than having a credible ethical position.

Now I'm gonna finish off boxing day with some home made sausage roll and pork pie.

Henry wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Try Veganuary and educate yourself.

I tried it for half an hour.

During those thirty minutes I read as much as I could about veganism. This included dietary and lifestyle changes. I educated myself.

I decided veganism was more about self important posturing than having a credible ethical position.

Now I'm gonna finish off boxing day with some home made sausage roll and pork pie.

That sounds exactly like an opinion that was formulated based on thirty minutes of 'research', to be honest.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Veganuary is exactly intended to show non-vegans that 95% of what they think they know about being vegan is total and complete nonsense.

Which is why you should actually try it, rather than dismissing it with comforting and exculpatory lies.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you want to be vegetarian/vegan, be my guest. It's your choice and your right.

When you start insisting that I need to be vegetarian/vegan, even to the extent of 'you need to try this', that we have a problem. Because at that point you're infringing on my rights.

Every time you say “try Veganuary and educate yourself”, I’ll eat another mini pork sausage roll.

I got roped into going to a Morrissey concert once, and he played Meat Is Murder. With accompanying footage of an abattoir. It pissed me off to no end. So much so, I went to the food bar to get a chicken and bacon burger with cheese. Because feth him.