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 Cephalobeard wrote:
No one said they were for children. You wrote a middle school pength essay about a point no one argued.

You called them toy soldiers, that is the same thing as childrens toys. Own up to it. You said it.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
No one said they were for children. You wrote a middle school pength essay about a point no one argued.

You called them toy soldiers, that is the same thing as childrens toys. Own up to it. You said it.

Adults can't have toys? Because I would totally classify a number of my 32-year-old self's things as toys.

They are quite literally toy soldiers.

I absolutely own that sentiment, here's a photo of them.

In Space Marine the computer game 3 marines (can't remember how many were captains) make planetfall and fight through a series of engagements, usually supported by a platoon of guardsmen. Iirc the game even featured a Titan?

With regards to the battle being part of a larger battle:I'm pretty sure when epic 40,000 was released, the 'firefights' fought between a couple of enemy detachments were describe as being representative of what a normal 40k game represents.

So there is fluff support at both ends of the spectrum. Not that it is needed anyway.

Just a bunch of adults adulting with their toy soldiers for the entertainment of other adults. Nothing childish about having a hobby or making a profession of it.

Isn't it always funny how the "fluffy" and "casual" players spit the most vitriol and get incredibly angry over how people choose to enjoy their hobby.

nareik wrote:
In Space Marine the computer game 3 marines (can't remember how many were captains) make planetfall and fight through a series of engagements, usually supported by a platoon of guardsmen. Iirc the game even featured a Titan?

With regards to the battle being part of a larger battle:I'm pretty sure when epic 40,000 was released, the 'firefights' fought between a couple of enemy detachments were describe as being representative of what a normal 40k game represents.

So there is fluff support at both ends of the spectrum. Not that it is needed anyway.

Just a bunch of adults adulting with their toy soldiers for the entertainment of other adults. Nothing childish about having a hobby or making a profession of it.

So in that same series a terminator can do a backflip, A space marine can fall from orbit without a drop pod, a space marine can also somehow power up a volcano cannon with warp energy, a thunder hammer can cause an earthquake?, and a razorback can transform into a land raider as well? Cool.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Seems like a pretty normal list.

Don't be upset about toy soldiers in toy magazines not being your favorite color toys. It's a silly thing to he concerned with.

Exalted, thank you. ridiculous.

nareik wrote:
In Space Marine the computer game 3 marines (can't remember how many were captains) make planetfall and fight through a series of engagements, usually supported by a platoon of guardsmen. Iirc the game even featured a Titan?

I just finished this game. Only Titus was a captain. So you had 1 Captain, 1 Veteran Sergeant, and 1 regular dude.

 Bosskelot wrote:
Isn't it always funny how the "fluffy" and "casual" players spit the most vitriol and get incredibly angry over how people choose to enjoy their hobby.

I disagree with that competitive players can be very well... competitive. Metagaming is essentially what this game in its current form awards, get all the big things and be as efficient as possible as i've said in previous threads if in regular normal games, everyone is playing the same type of list with one of the same detachments that is a problem with the game system not allowing for diversity.

The fundamental problem is how rewarding it is to be a knight player or whether or not knights have a place in a normal 40k tabletop game.


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Wayniac wrote:

nareik wrote:
In Space Marine the computer game 3 marines (can't remember how many were captains) make planetfall and fight through a series of engagements, usually supported by a platoon of guardsmen. Iirc the game even featured a Titan?

I just finished this game. Only Titus was a captain. So you had 1 Captain, 1 Veteran Sergeant, and 1 regular dude.

He also came in with a whole squad of tacticals, and most of them were more like kill team missions if anything. none of these were pitched massive battles Titus fought in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
GW gets gakked on when they bring good lists and they get gakked on when they bring bad lists.

I mean its like someone walking into an entry tournament for 12 year olds and everyone brings fun armies, and then one kid brings in the top competitive army list of ITC. So if this list made it to the front it means either : A) they wanted to show people it, B) make people aware they know about. C) they are thinking about changing some rules in the future.

There is no way that someone brought that list in without the design team looking at it. The game already struggles as is to deal with titan units.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
GW gets gakked on when they bring good lists and they get gakked on when they bring bad lists.

There are good lists and then there are tournament lists that completely gak all over the 40k background material.

Where, exactly does this "gak" all over the background? Mephiston traveling with two retainers? Not unheard of. Knights working with either group? No, that's normal too. Seems fine for the Imperium to actually utilize combined arms. Heck, the Knights themselves could've conceivably been a honor guard provided by the locals.

32 guardsmen with 3 knights and 3 captains, sure got it. sometimes two of these armies will face each other, it gaks over it cause the mephiston would not travel with two captains, he would travel with a full company at the very least.

Knights traveling with 32 guardsmen is already a stretch mate.

Source time, please. I'm not seeing where the problem is. Mephiston probably isn't in the physical presence of the entire company the entire time. That would be incredibly awkward. At this moment, he was going someplace smaller (perhaps a location that couldn't fit the company indoors, yeah?). The Knights are part of the local planetary garrison with the Astra Militarum, who was assigned to escort the VIP's from location A to location B for whatever important meeting is happening.

This wouldn't be far fetched in the real world with similar machines. If we had giant mecha-knights everywhere I'd imagine they'd get shown off to important patrons (as Space Marines would be to a local planetary government: a huge source of protection and stability you definitely want to impress). Two officers with your best parade drill infantrymen, your three big, shiniest behemoths and then a plea for support once they get inside.

\

Your the one making the claim it is fluffy.

Name one book where this happens.

Cause space marines usually travel with their brothers not entirely by themselves. A space marine captain would not go off by himself with major commanders. Entirely by themselves. The codex would not allow your commanders to stand by themselves and work alongside knight titans or imperial guard in that manner.

they would at least travel with a bodyguard, or part of a demi-company. Space marines do not send a single character by themselves unless they are the Mentor's Legion which is their specific job and specialization. Dante would not send two captains and a single librarian entirely by themselves no matter who. Even mephiston traveled with his team if you read any of his books.


Three big titans don't go running along with only 30 guardsmen, they try to stay apart from one another, and it wouldn't just be 30 guardsmen but more. this isn't fluffy stop kidding yourself.

Your disputes in this thread seem to frequently involve you reading things into or from arguments that aren't there. Carefully look back.

We didn't say the two Captains and Mephiston came alone. We said they came with a full company. The full company obviously isn't assembled together 24/7. Anytime important persons go to a world there's neverending meetings and they get shuffled from A to B to C to D in varying groups. This just happens to be a meeting that only Mephiston and the Captains were attending as senior officers. The local planetary government uses a parade squad with two officers and their fanciest machines to escort them to try and impress the Space Marines. So the full Space Marine company is there, it's just not right there in the immediate vicinity. Same with the actual legions of the planetary government.

You seem to confuse 'being fluffy' with 'repeating verbatim what is in the books'. Those aren't the same. For years people have made Space Marines or Astra Militarum as "Your Dudes" along with the other factions. If we followed the books literally, that wouldn't happen: "Your Dudes" don't exist in books. Mephiston is also not allowed to engage in any battle except recreations of ones that already exist, because they never happened in the books. Holding to that seems a bit extreme to me though and against what the player base at large seems to do, however, so we obviously deviate from the literal path. In this proposed scenario, we have, as an example, an unexpected surprise attack (maybe from Chaos or Genestealers?) on Mephiston and two trusted officers in what is supposed to be a 'safe' summit meeting hosted by a grateful governor. Can they survive!? Find out!

When I'm asking for a source, what I'm asking for is some type of fluff that prohibits the type of scenario we've been spitballing. There isn't any as far as I know.

And while Space Marines are Codex compliant, for the most part, they also aren't stupid. If Mephiston and two Captains were traveling together when they were suddenly assaulted, they would not tell their assaulters: "Wait! We need to get back to the ship and get the rest of the soldiers! We're not Codex compliant!". They'd just start obliterating invaders, potentially in a fighting retreat. I don't doubt all three of them wouldn't hesitate to start ordering around local mooks. "You there!" "Me, sir?" "Yeah, you with the flashlight, form up and shoot that thing!" "But you're not my Commissar" "I'm the Lord of Death, look me in the eye and tell me if you think I would hesitate to end you like your Commisar" "Sir, yes, sir!" or however you want to word it.

Wayniac wrote:
What did it face? I'm curious if this was a purposely done "competitive style" battle report? They used to do that from time to time.

Not my pictures, but I was kinda interested to see the context here.

Yes. It was two tournament players throwing tourney filth at each other it looks like.

 Bosskelot wrote:
Isn't it always funny how the "fluffy" and "casual" players spit the most vitriol and get incredibly angry over how people choose to enjoy their hobby.

It seems mostly to be a dakkadakka thing. There is a large swathe of this forum that is, what I would call, 'militantly casual' as opposed to just actually casual.

Audustum wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
Isn't it always funny how the "fluffy" and "casual" players spit the most vitriol and get incredibly angry over how people choose to enjoy their hobby.

It seems mostly to be a dakkadakka thing. There is a large swathe of this forum that is, what I would call, 'militantly casual' as opposed to just actually casual.

That i can agree with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
What did it face? I'm curious if this was a purposely done "competitive style" battle report? They used to do that from time to time.

Spoiler:

Not my pictures, but I was kinda interested to see the context here.

Yes. It was two tournament players throwing tourney filth at each other it looks like.

Oh that is interesting.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
Isn't it always funny how the "fluffy" and "casual" players spit the most vitriol and get incredibly angry over how people choose to enjoy their hobby.

I disagree with that competitive players can be very well... competitive. Metagaming is essentially what this game in its current form awards, get all the big things and be as efficient as possible as i've said in previous threads if in regular normal games, everyone is playing the same type of list with one of the same detachments that is a problem with the game system not allowing for diversity.

The fundamental problem is how rewarding it is to be a knight player or whether or not knights have a place in a normal 40k tabletop game.

And yet this list wouldn't stand a chance against a proper Ynaari list. There are several monofaction armies that could wipe the floor or fight it evenly too. I've fought several armies like it with my pure Craftworld Ulthwe army and I have a massive winrate versus Imp Soup as a result.

And competitive gaming has always been about getting the most efficient stuff with the meta of the particular game in question always coalescing into a few very specific things. You see it in esports all the time and previous editions of 40k were even WORSE for variety at top levels of play. 8th Ed is incredibly diverse in comparison.

AND none of this really matters if you aren't playing top tier competitive. So what if someone does a loyal 32 with smash captains and Knights? I can organize plenty of games in my local area, including plenty of Imperium players, who wont use that sort of list in your average game so why does it matter? People will enjoy what they enjoy playing in whatever form that takes and most wargaming communities have a large variety of different players of different skill levels so if you don't like some competitive filth you don't have to ever engage with it.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Yes. It was two tournament players throwing tourney filth at each other it looks like.

Precisely.

In fact, the intro actually says that in the studio they tend not to play that competitively and prefer to make up narrative scenarios. This battle report was specifically the opposite of that, bringing in two tournament gamers to make up any list they liked based on the studio armies (the Imperial player brought his own Knights though because he wanted them kitted out a certain way). There was no pretence of it being in any way true to the background and not even an attempt to justify it with flavour text.

But, they also didn't make a big deal out of it being some sort of special game. It was treated as a totally legitimate way to play, they just noted it was different to their personal gaming philosophy.

There's honestly no way anyone can be even slightly mad about this tbh.

Okay, so yeah it looks like they brought two tourney players to the studio to do a competitive battle report. That's a bit easier to swallow. They used to do that periodically back in the olden days (In my view one of GW's best designers, Alessio Cavatore, was the Italian WHFB champion before he joined the studio IIRC)

This is perfectly acceptable then. I almost wonder if they did this to see what makes the top tournament armies "tick" firsthand so they can look at possibly addressing it rather than relying on anecdotal evidence. Also I am guessing they are using CA18 missions, so it would also be a good test to see how those missions can work in a simulated tournament matchup.

Wayniac wrote:
Okay, so yeah it looks like they brought two tourney players to the studio to do a competitive battle report. That's a bit easier to swallow. They used to do that periodically back in the olden days (In my view one of GW's best designers, Alessio Cavatore, was the Italian WHFB champion before he joined the studio IIRC)

This is perfectly acceptable then.

I think having a competitive designer who was at least competitive give an outlook on a game is always valuable to prevent rampant abuse like in a certain game system. (Not Warhammer separate)

But it does! indeed!

Wayniac wrote:
Okay, so yeah it looks like they brought two tourney players to the studio to do a competitive battle report. That's a bit easier to swallow. They used to do that periodically back in the olden days (In my view one of GW's best designers, Alessio Cavatore, was the Italian WHFB champion before he joined the studio IIRC)

This is perfectly acceptable then. I almost wonder if they did this to see what makes the top tournament armies "tick" firsthand so they can look at possibly addressing it.

Alessio was also responsible, basically, for breaking at least two editions of WHFB with the filthy books he led on.

 Asherian Command wrote:
https://twitter.com/servoarm/status/1079706997220667393


So the army list for the Imperium in the new white dwarf is...
Company Commanders
Boltgun
Warlord Grand Strategist
Super Heavy Detachment
Knight Gallant
Warlord Trait : Landstrider
Knight Castellan
Warlord trait : Ion Bulwark

total 1991 pts.

Seems that this list is a bit illegal to me. There appears to be three Warlords in this army, two in one detachment.

Is this kind of thing allowed on the tourney circuit now?

 helgrenze wrote:


Seems that this list is a bit illegal to me. There appears to be three Warlords in this army.
Is this kind of thing allowed on the tourney circuit now?

Knights have a stratagem which allows giving them warlord traits.

 helgrenze wrote:
Seems that this list is a bit illegal to me. There appears to be three Warlords in this army, two in one detachment.

Is this kind of thing allowed on the tourney circuit now?

If you don't know the rules you shouldn't call lists "illegal". The Imperial Knights have a stratagem that allows you to make up to two knights CHARACTERS and gain a Warlord Trait IN ADDITION to the one you can get via the Knight Lances rule.

Knights are a blight on the game and are one of the reasons I now feel 8th edition is no longer salvageable.

Wayniac wrote:
Okay, so yeah it looks like they brought two tourney players to the studio to do a competitive battle report. That's a bit easier to swallow. They used to do that periodically back in the olden days (In my view one of GW's best designers, Alessio Cavatore, was the Italian WHFB champion before he joined the studio IIRC)

This is perfectly acceptable then. I almost wonder if they did this to see what makes the top tournament armies "tick" firsthand so they can look at possibly addressing it rather than relying on anecdotal evidence. Also I am guessing they are using CA18 missions, so it would also be a good test to see how those missions can work in a simulated tournament matchup.

Why is it only acceptable for GW to acknowledge and support competitive play if it isn't GW employees? Why does there need to be some hidden agenda of working on balance changes and not just showing a tournament style battle report for readers interested in the subject?

nareik wrote:
In Space Marine the computer game 3 marines (can't remember how many were captains) make planetfall and fight through a series of engagements, usually supported by a platoon of guardsmen. Iirc the game even featured a Titan?

With regards to the battle being part of a larger battle:I'm pretty sure when epic 40,000 was released, the 'firefights' fought between a couple of enemy detachments were describe as being representative of what a normal 40k game represents.

So there is fluff support at both ends of the spectrum. Not that it is needed anyway.

Just a bunch of adults adulting with their toy soldiers for the entertainment of other adults. Nothing childish about having a hobby or making a profession of it.

One captain his head sergeant and a newby marine, the rest of the company was fighting in the city and you get messages from them throughout the game, titus’s Thunderhawk also had to leave the airspace due to damage And he jump packs into an enemy ship which then pulls him away from his company and allies, hence, he then spends time trying to reunite with his missing comrades and encounters an inquisitor along the way who re tasks him, otherwise he would likely have just re United with his company to control the flow of battle.

This is very different than 2 captains, mehphiston 32 guard and 3 knights link up and go for a wander, it’s internally inconsistent with the setting and externally weird too.

Yeah, you know what, well done to White Dwarf. They're clearly targeting a different demographic here which is a refreshing change of pace. Is it how I choose to play? Nah. If I knew someone who wanted to play like this, I likely wouldn't engage in a game with them because (and this is important) neither of us get what we want out of the game. I owe the list-tweaking, math-hammering, optimization bloke an apology because I'm not able to offer the level of challenge that he's looking for, and he can offer the same apology because he can't offer the more narrative based game I'm after. Doesn't mean each of us can't respect the other and our hobby.

It's no different to how a gamer and a painter enjoy different aspects of the hobby. I enjoy having a cohesive, well painted force on the table looking like how I picture it in the narrative and the fluff. Someone else might just paint models they think are cool, and have a completely mish-mashed collection of random characters from both 40k and AoS. You know what, neither of us is doing the hobby "wrong".

It's a hobby. You're meant to enjoy it.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
No one said they were for children. You wrote a middle school pength essay about a point no one argued.

You called them toy soldiers, that is the same thing as childrens toys. Own up to it. You said it.

Yeah, they're toy soldiers. And we get to play with them as adults & call it a hobby. What of it? You ashamed of that or something?

They literally are toy soldiers...

There's nothing wrong with WD featuring tournament lists. I personally prefer narrative battle reports with more reasonable unit compositions, but competitive play is part of 40k, so thats fine, too.

 Formosa wrote:
This is very different than 2 captains, mehphiston 32 guard and 3 knights link up and go for a wander, it’s internally inconsistent with the setting and externally weird too.

Again, you're missing the fact that a 40k game is often representing one tiny piece of a battlefield. The space marine leaders aren't at the battle without anyone to lead, there's a tactical squad just off the edge of the table and a Thunderhawk full of assault marines arriving soon.

The list is fluffy. The question is, should it be as God-tier effective against TAC lists as it is. In my opinion just doing away with the Supreme Command Detachment would solve a lot of issues.

Nothing wrong with that list and honestly not that crazy un-fluffy:

I personally play tournaments so i can expect to face list like this and that´s why it's brilliant that WD has this batrep. Gives insight into the tournament scene and what to expect in the top bracket.

I am aiming to land in the top 40% at Vegas so this batrep is straight up my alley and pipes my interest more then a more casual narrative report would do.


With love!