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stormcraft wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Daemonkin preview is up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/06/mar-6-shadowspear-focus-daemonkin-rulesgw-homepage-post-2/

Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.

The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.

Check the distinction between the "Traitor Legions" and the "Daemonkin" in the CSM entry. Looks clear to me that the Daemonkin will be a complete different codex from the CSM one. If that's the case, it would be weird to change their rules only in one of the codexes. Also, the CSM are about as useless as your standard tactical marines, so there's that.

New Images

stormcraft wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Daemonkin preview is up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/06/mar-6-shadowspear-focus-daemonkin-rulesgw-homepage-post-2/

Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.

The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.

Disappointing? Or a clever indication that they don't want to hint that a new Codex is on the way?

-

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they have their own Strategem that boosts summoning. Hide the guy wherever, attempt your summon in the movement phase, then cast this power for a second summon.

It's more fun than anything.

Ah, cool, because what I am after is a fun to play, conversion focused force that also has a good bit of Daemons and Possession. Mostly because I think it's cool, and I like my head-cannon idea of Word Bearers and what I imagine their stylized look could be (lots of books, "Impurity" seals, hoods, robes, script, and runes). Plus, for some reason, over 10 years ago I bought a gak load of daemon models too.

Daemonkin seems to be exactly what the doctor ordered in this case. Trouble will be acquiring the skills needed to do it right, along with the time.

Funny how the rules of the fleshmetal weapons make the obliterators incompatible to be buffed by the greater possessed in the only phase where they really matter.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ceorron wrote:
Hey GW America site list Abaddon, Chaos Bikers and Dark Apostle as "No Longer Available".

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000?N=2562756967+2590967967&No=48&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrpp=12&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+%3C%3D+1551858360000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1551858360000]

I will die if we get bikes, too.

I get the feeling that the Dark Apostle model is just gone as soon as it sells out. No replacement

But we maybe getting new bikes!!!!!

 ceorron wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ceorron wrote:
Hey GW America site list Abaddon, Chaos Bikers and Dark Apostle as "No Longer Available".

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000?N=2562756967+2590967967&No=48&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrpp=12&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+%3C%3D+1551858360000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1551858360000]

I will die if we get bikes, too.

I get the feeling that the Dark Apostle model is just gone as soon as it sells out. No replacement

But we maybe getting new bikes!!!!!

There's a dark apostle right next to Abaddon in the artwork of the reveal. And there have been two Daemon Engine rumours that match the picture (one of the flaming book and one of the candle rack on his back). I'd say we are 100% getting a new Dark Apostle. Although with 5 pt cultists I don't know how much will this matter.

So, Obliterators got a sizeable buff.... is it 4 shot guns to 6 shot? Plus an additional wound, and the ability to take any unit size again (which we had in 3rd edition)

Do we know what cost increase if any?

 ph34r wrote:
So, Obliterators got a sizeable buff.... is it 4 shot guns to 6 shot? Plus an additional wound, and the ability to take any unit size again (which we had in 3rd edition)

Do we know what cost increase if any?

We suspect they are probably getting to the 110-120 pt per model range.

So obliterators got a sizeable nerf.

They are now PL 6. No word on points yet, but with that PL they will be almost double the current cost.

 ph34r wrote:
So, Obliterators got a sizeable buff.... is it 4 shot guns to 6 shot? Plus an additional wound, and the ability to take any unit size again (which we had in 3rd edition)

Do we know what cost increase if any?

No points have been leaked, but we do know for sure that Oblits are Power Level 6. For 1 model.
Considering they were PL10 for 3 models before, it is very safe to assume 2 Oblits will cost about the same or MORE than 3 Oblits before
So while you do get +1W, +1T and 2 more shots per model, it breaks down about like this:

3 Oldblits - 9 T4 wounds, 12 shots
2 Newblits - 8 T5 wounds, 12 shots

Kind of a wash really. Neither a buff nor a nerf. Aside from some side buff, like 3 Newblits getting 18 shots doubled to 36, but you will be paying 50% more for that than before

-

 ikeulhu wrote:
They are now PL 6. No word on points yet, but with that PL they will be almost double the current cost.

They are hardier now and can fight in melee, so it is not a nerf so much as a reimaging of the unit.

 Red_Five wrote:

 ikeulhu wrote:
They are now PL 6. No word on points yet, but with that PL they will be almost double the current cost.

They are hardier now and can fight in melee, so it is not a nerf so much as a reimaging of the unit.

I wonder if this means that Mutilators are getting squatted, seeing as Obliterators are back to a more well-rounded role?

grahamdbailey wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

 ikeulhu wrote:
They are now PL 6. No word on points yet, but with that PL they will be almost double the current cost.

They are hardier now and can fight in melee, so it is not a nerf so much as a reimaging of the unit.

I wonder if this means that Mutilators are getting squatted, seeing as Obliterators are back to a more well-rounded role?

There is a power in the Malefic Discipline that affects Fleshmetal weapons. So no, Mutilators are not going anywhere.

grahamdbailey wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

 ikeulhu wrote:
They are now PL 6. No word on points yet, but with that PL they will be almost double the current cost.

They are hardier now and can fight in melee, so it is not a nerf so much as a reimaging of the unit.

I wonder if this means that Mutilators are getting squatted, seeing as Obliterators are back to a more well-rounded role?

In fairness mutilators were a taked on concept doing a nothing job compared to terminators.

 buddha wrote:

grahamdbailey wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

 ikeulhu wrote:
They are now PL 6. No word on points yet, but with that PL they will be almost double the current cost.

They are hardier now and can fight in melee, so it is not a nerf so much as a reimaging of the unit.

I wonder if this means that Mutilators are getting squatted, seeing as Obliterators are back to a more well-rounded role?

In fairness mutilators were a taked on concept doing a nothing job compared to terminators.

And ugly. very ugly. Not gonna be missed.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

stormcraft wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Daemonkin preview is up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/06/mar-6-shadowspear-focus-daemonkin-rulesgw-homepage-post-2/

Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.

The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.

Check the distinction between the "Traitor Legions" and the "Daemonkin" in the CSM entry. Looks clear to me that the Daemonkin will be a complete different codex from the CSM one. If that's the case, it would be weird to change their rules only in one of the codexes. Also, the CSM are about as useless as your standard tactical marines, so there's that.

This entire release is focused on demonkin of the black legion. Seems to me there will be no separation.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

stormcraft wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Daemonkin preview is up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/06/mar-6-shadowspear-focus-daemonkin-rulesgw-homepage-post-2/

Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.

The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.

Check the distinction between the "Traitor Legions" and the "Daemonkin" in the CSM entry. Looks clear to me that the Daemonkin will be a complete different codex from the CSM one. If that's the case, it would be weird to change their rules only in one of the codexes. Also, the CSM are about as useless as your standard tactical marines, so there's that.

I basically agree. The idea that CSMs actually provide the core of anyone's CSM army is nonsense. They can't actually believe that.

What this tells us is that CSMs do not get new rules in the new codex, or in Vigulus II. If they did you can bet they wouldn't publish the old datasheet in Shadowspear. So 13pt CSMs now have to somehow fight 17pt intercessors, who have 2 wounds, 2 attacks and a better gun. Seems legit...

grahamdbailey wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

 ikeulhu wrote:
They are now PL 6. No word on points yet, but with that PL they will be almost double the current cost.

They are hardier now and can fight in melee, so it is not a nerf so much as a reimaging of the unit.

I wonder if this means that Mutilators are getting squatted, seeing as Obliterators are back to a more well-rounded role?

The total number of mutalators sold by GW must be a truly embarrassing number

I'm heavily against using Sorcerers in my World Eaters, but I'm probably gonna try squeeze the MoP in, and headcanon it as being some sort of count-as Khorne Blood Priest.
(Which Khorne have in both AoS and 9th Age, but not in 40k for some reason.)

Rite of Possession screams Khornate anti-psyker-ala-brass-collar to me, and since most of his powers only affect Daemons in the first place anyway...

 MinscS2 wrote:
I'm heavily against using Sorcerers in my World Eaters, but I'm probably gonna try squeeze the MoP in, and headcanon it as being some sort of count-as Khorne Blood Priest.
(Which Khorne have in both AoS and 9th Age, but not in 40k for some reason.)

Rite of Possession screams Khornate anti-psyker-ala-brass-collar to me, and since most of his powers only affect Daemons in the first place anyway...

I think a WE release in the same vein as Death Guard and 1k Sons is highly likely. Your faith in Khorne may well be rewarded by some kind of 40k blood priest

 Haighus wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
I'm heavily against using Sorcerers in my World Eaters, but I'm probably gonna try squeeze the MoP in, and headcanon it as being some sort of count-as Khorne Blood Priest.
(Which Khorne have in both AoS and 9th Age, but not in 40k for some reason.)

Rite of Possession screams Khornate anti-psyker-ala-brass-collar to me, and since most of his powers only affect Daemons in the first place anyway...

I think a WE release in the same vein as Death Guard and 1k Sons is highly likely. Your faith in Khorne may well be rewarded by some kind of 40k blood priest

Death guard yes. Thousand Sons not so much. The performance of individual HQs is great, but if you look at the codex closely, it consists by the rubrics + scarabs, then there's an insertion of tzeentch goats from AOS (tzaangors, tzaangor enlightened, shaman, mutalith vortex beast), and then they fill in the codex with the most generic CSM stuff: here's your hellbrute, tanks and daemon engines. "Ok, that should be enough units, call it a day".

Khorne does not have the equivalent influx from AOS units to be their main stars, so what would a Khornate codex be? All the hth CSM options plus berzerkers in troop? Why do we need a dedicated god codex for this?

Unless some new crazy khorne-only stuff appear, I don't think we are going to see a new Khorne codex. Oh and we are definitely not seeing a Slaanesh one any time soon.

Has anyone ever actually seen a mutilator, that isn’t a GW promotional image ?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Getting a guaranteed 3 Wounds back has to worth shanking a Warpsmith, surely?

Unless Warpsmiths are generally pretty pants, and this is not in fact reason enough to field one?

problems with that, A a warpsmith still is 55pts has a repair ability and a damage ability, he is versatile, the engine that you heal, not so much.

B: daemonengines are not really good enough in an allready more meh then good codex. Mostly due to bs 4 + degrading and bad pricing.

C: daemonengines also can self heal+ warpsmith, if you really want to keep it alive i will concede the point but still feels like a too high price.
Also only daemons engines not hellbrutes, etc.

Duuude. Venomcrawlers are nice.

Warpsmith, MoP, Greater Possessed, 3 Venoms - ~650 points.

30 T7 3+/4++ wounds. A VC in melee can heal D3 + 3 + 2 in one turn.

They kick off 6D3 S9 AP2 D3 shots - all assault so no move penalty while you work them toward combat. WS & BS do not degrade. Likely 4 / 3 / 2 on attacks, which means 12 S9 AP3 D3 plus 6 S7 AP2 D2.

Stick Abaddon, cultists, and maulerfiends in the mix and watch them slice and dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ceorron wrote:
Hey GW America site list Abaddon, Chaos Bikers and Dark Apostle as "No Longer Available".

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000?N=2562756967+2590967967&No=48&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrpp=12&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+%3C%3D+1551858360000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1551858360000]

I will die if we get bikes, too.

I was thinking something similar, although with Word Bearers.
1. Lord with Voice of Lorgar trait.
2. New dude using Cursed Earth and the summoning Power.
3. 3 Venomcrawlers and 3 Forgefiends spread out just so to protect them.
4. Cultists I guess.

While offensively less powerful than Abigail giving rerolls, it is significantly cheaper and less clustered overall. Then you keep summoning whatever you feel like whilst you go forward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

stormcraft wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Daemonkin preview is up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/06/mar-6-shadowspear-focus-daemonkin-rulesgw-homepage-post-2/

Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.

The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.

Check the distinction between the "Traitor Legions" and the "Daemonkin" in the CSM entry. Looks clear to me that the Daemonkin will be a complete different codex from the CSM one. If that's the case, it would be weird to change their rules only in one of the codexes. Also, the CSM are about as useless as your standard tactical marines, so there's that.

I basically agree. The idea that CSMs actually provide the core of anyone's CSM army is nonsense. They can't actually believe that.

What this tells us is that CSMs do not get new rules in the new codex, or in Vigulus II. If they did you can bet they wouldn't publish the old datasheet in Shadowspear. So 13pt CSMs now have to somehow fight 17pt intercessors, who have 2 wounds, 2 attacks and a better gun. Seems legit...

They and Tactical Marines were already having to do that.

I still take issue with Chaos Marines not having Vet stats ar minimum. It's silly.

When it comes to basic CSM, I remember in the previous edition I did the math to try and find the theoretical point difference between CSM and Tactical marines based on statistical difference. I found that you needed almost 17 model CSM to equal the performance of a 10 model tactical squad. While I haven't done the math, this edition doesn't seem much different, except for the generally worse performance of power armor. Sometimes I want to just field some evil sisters of battle to count as CSM squads, because that's about what they're equal to.

For CSM squads to ever be worthwhile enough to take GW needs to start treating them as the more Veteran marines they're suppose to be and make them closer to Chosen.

 ceorron wrote:
Hey GW America site list Abaddon, Chaos Bikers and Dark Apostle as "No Longer Available".

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000?N=2562756967+2590967967&No=48&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrpp=12&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+%3C%3D+1551858360000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1551858360000]

I would be very happy with new Bikers.

GaroRobe wrote:

Spoiler:

Pure speculation here, with the death guard, WE, BL, terminators, marines etc all fighting together in this cover art and Abbadon being the one to unit all forces of chaos together, is there a chance we could see the new BL codex get a similar unit to Death Watch veterans?

 UMGuy wrote:

GaroRobe wrote:

Spoiler:

Pure speculation here, with the death guard, WE, BL, terminators, marines etc all fighting together in this cover art and Abbadon being the one to unit all forces of chaos together, is there a chance we could see the new BL codex get a similar unit to Death Watch veterans?

IF they gave Black Legion their own codex, I imagine they'd get some sort of unit uniting veteran worshippers of all 4 gods.

stormcraft wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Daemonkin preview is up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/06/mar-6-shadowspear-focus-daemonkin-rulesgw-homepage-post-2/

Some new stuff we haven't seen. A couple of warlord traits that both look quite useful.

The fact that they dont even suggest with a peep that there needs to be rules changes to the standard CSM, just a casual "Heys here are some cool new models, enjoy", is truly dissapointing imho.

There's no change to standard CSM rules in shadowspear ... I understand why tho : changing the rules for standard CSM would necessarily means that they would have to change the rule for standard marine as well. And that's a no go since they need to sell those primaris.

The master of possession, with the help of some venomcrawler, is going to be a damn good psycker with all those warlord traits.

 UMGuy wrote:

GaroRobe wrote:

Spoiler:

Pure speculation here, with the death guard, WE, BL, terminators, marines etc all fighting together in this cover art and Abbadon being the one to unit all forces of chaos together, is there a chance we could see the new BL codex get a similar unit to Death Watch veterans?

Would be awesome, and fluff.

Man, a theoretical chaos marine release where they get updated sculpts for their most beloved named character, a rebooted basic troop box, heavy weapon team box, terminator box, and biker box ON TOP OF a bunch of new stuff...

That'd be the dream release. I'd be blown away, tbh, I don't think I've ever seen GW nail "what the players actually want out of a model release" that perfectly well since I've been playing 40k.

If it actually did happen, of course.

the_scotsman wrote:
Man, a theoretical chaos marine release where they get updated sculpts for their most beloved named character, a rebooted basic troop box, heavy weapon team box, terminator box, and biker box ON TOP OF a bunch of new stuff...

That'd be the dream release. I'd be blown away, tbh, I don't think I've ever seen GW nail "what the players actually want out of a model release" that perfectly well since I've been playing 40k.

If it actually did happen, of course.

And all of it hinges on if they fix the basic marine statline....which they almost certainly will not :(