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Sooo, I destroy a unit and then impose a -100 leadership to the other units around it.... then what?

I am missing the final step in the masterplan.

Yep, raptorial host still not making Harken worthwhile.

Meh, like yesterday, this is less about the Night Lords and more about Vigilus 2.

I don’t get why you would EVER use the Terror Strike stratagem. You’d literally have to charge several units, kill 1, half kill the others in order to benefit from the Ld penalty. And, lets face it, for Raptors and Warp Talons to do that you’re going to need a lot of Raptors and Warp Talons.

If I want to mess with Ld as Chaos, I’ll just run some Butcher Cannons and shoot people to death.

As for the re-roll hits strat. Chances are you’ll be re-rolling 1’s anyway for “free” from a JP Lord. Why would you risk spending 1CP at the end of your movement phase on a unit you then have to hope makes a successful 9” charge. Things like this just annoy me and it makes me feel like they aren’t actually thinking things through in terms of how the game generally works.

Excellent, more leadership shenanigans. Just what the doctor ordered. GW strikes again - make amazing models, give them average rules, and then continually giving them buffs that don't fix the initial problems.

All of those Host Raptorial (lol) abilities are so terrible. What in the world does GW think CSM actually do?

More garbage rules and useless/redundant strategems.

More seriously though, did anyone think chaos would be getting good rules?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
More garbage rules and useless/redundant strategems.

More seriously though, did anyone think chaos would be getting good rules?

and this is why I don't consider GW "game designers" or "rules writers" since these could be fixed with a few damn seconds of thought or understanding of the game.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
More garbage rules and useless/redundant strategems.

More seriously though, did anyone think chaos would be getting good rules?

I was hopeful of them getting some cool, interesting and usable rules and detachments.

They are currently 0 for 3 in regards to Vigilus 2 in my eyes. If the book only contains stuff for CSM then I’m at about a 5% chance of buying it right now based on the previews.

Kdash wrote:
They are currently 0 for 3 in regards to Vigilus 2 in my eyes. If the book only contains stuff for CSM then I’m at about a 5% chance of buying it right now based on the previews.

The fact that I also play Khorne Daemons is keeping me interested in purchasing, but I have serious doubts they got much that matters beyond a Skulltaker update and the terrain from AOS.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
More garbage rules and useless/redundant strategems.

More seriously though, did anyone think chaos would be getting good rules?

I thought maybe they'd at least try to make them useable. Buffing (kind of) a load of units that nobody takes buy giving them the option of throwing away CPs for nothing is bizarre.

There's still a chance they'll mess up and throw in something broken of course. "Ton of fearless cultists detachment" or something. Nothing so far lools like you'd even consider taking it.

Mandragola wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
More garbage rules and useless/redundant strategems.

More seriously though, did anyone think chaos would be getting good rules?

I thought maybe they'd at least try to make them useable. Buffing (kind of) a load of units that nobody takes buy giving them the option of throwing away CPs for nothing is bizarre.

There's still a chance they'll mess up and throw in something broken of course. "Ton of fearless cultists detachment" or something. Nothing so far lools like you'd even consider taking it.

? Abaddon already makes them fearless. Regardless, cultists took a huge nerf and CSM may be regulated to being fully on the shelf except for very casual games.

I mean, leadership debuffs are flavorful and all but... What do these detachments actually accomplish?

You pay CP in advance and hope to succeed with a 9" charge after deep strike? Or pay CP to get a temporary debuff to the leadership of units right next to yours after you successfully destroyed on of them with Raptors?

What on earth is going on. I mean they could have given these rules out for free without conditions and I still would struggle to ever find a use for them.

The stratagem LD debuff works for all your raptorial guys. So if one of them kills a unit you play the strat and all your other guys who didn't kill their targets (because they're raptors) get a LD debuff aura.

It's still useless, but not so useless as saying that you spend CPs to debuff the LD of an enemy unit that you already killed.

cool new heads shown off for the CSM set, different to the original horned one showed off.

I mean, the stratagem also allows you to re-roll ALL hit-rolls in range. Use it on a maxed out raptor squad for some decent punch, maybe try charging a screen after for some punchy action

Mandragola wrote:
The stratagem LD debuff works for all your raptorial guys. So if one of them kills a unit you play the strat and all your other guys who didn't kill their targets (because they're raptors) get a LD debuff aura.

It's still useless, but not so useless as saying that you spend CPs to debuff the LD of an enemy unit that you already killed.

The problem is though, that you’d no only have to kill 1 unit completely, but, you’d also need to have had enough attacks/shooting to kill a couple of models from the other units you tag.

I always thought it’d be cool to run Night Lords with Nurgle Banners etc etc to stack Ld penalties, but, when everything needs to make a 9” charge to even begin to use the de-buffs it becomes labour some and difficult to reply and replicate game after game.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

RearAdmiralSnuffles wrote:
I mean, the stratagem also allows you to re-roll ALL hit-rolls in range. Use it on a maxed out raptor squad for some decent punch, maybe try charging a screen after for some punchy action

So, essentially, Bolt Pistols followed by Chainsword attacks, or just Lightening Claw attacks then.

Jacob29 wrote:
cool new heads shown off for the CSM set, different to the original horned one showed off.

Thats an old plastic kit head (also on an old plastic marine, I dont think they painted up an entire army of each legion for photos, so theres still old models kicking around in the background.)

RearAdmiralSnuffles wrote:
I mean, the stratagem also allows you to re-roll ALL hit-rolls in range. Use it on a maxed out raptor squad for some decent punch, maybe try charging a screen after for some punchy action

Right, but they also gave you a terrible special character who gives rerolls to hit, and anyway normal lords do the same thing.

Rerolls are available all over the place. It's just such a lazy mechanic to give out when they can't think of anything else.

Instead of complaining here, contact the GW rules team and explain what it is you think is wrong. If enough people do this, they will rethink what they're offering.

40kfaq@gwplc.com

That is the email you can use. Please remember to be courteous, you'll catch more files with honey, than vinegar.

Mandragola wrote:

RearAdmiralSnuffles wrote:
I mean, the stratagem also allows you to re-roll ALL hit-rolls in range. Use it on a maxed out raptor squad for some decent punch, maybe try charging a screen after for some punchy action

Right, but they also gave you a terrible special character who gives rerolls to hit, and anyway normal lords do the same thing.

Rerolls are available all over the place. It's just such a lazy mechanic to give out when they can't think of anything else.

Yeah I guess. At this point, I am more hoping for a rework of some key CSM units. Like, even if these bonuses were free, I still would have a hard time justifying raptors in a world with shining spears, acolyte hybrids, ect, ect

this comin up for the funs

God this is discouraging... the only thing I'm holding out hope for is that the renegade warband traits are halfway decent. That's it. At this rate, Chaos will have a ton of extra options but none of them will be worth taking.

I love the whole idea of spending tons of CP and points to get -6 leadership on a unit just for my opponent to spend 2 cp to auto pass.

Great game design.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Latro_ wrote:
this comin up for the funs

Tbh the mentality of this poster is probably how the rules writers truly view the legions.

 Togusa wrote:
Instead of complaining here, contact the GW rules team and explain what it is you think is wrong. If enough people do this, they will rethink what they're offering.

40kfaq@gwplc.com

That is the email you can use. Please remember to be courteous, you'll catch more files with honey, than vinegar.

100% agree. I send a pretty long, scathing (but polite) email with a load of suggestions after the LVO stream weekend, and I was pretty pleased when I tuned into the GT Finals that a fair few of my suggestions and remarks into certain things had been addressed/were being visually worked on and referred to by the team.

However, in this case, I would probably initially direct the feedback to both the rules team and the community team. Likely there are other, more impressive detachments in the background (which we’ll find out about through youtube reviews and leaks). IF this is the case then we need them to start previewing useful things alongside the extreme fluffy things in order to obtain some form of balance and retain the hype.

However, if it turns out that the entire set of detachments is as bad as the 3 so far, then, I won’t be buying it and will be feeding back as such along with a long list of suggestions… Not that it’ll change anything in the short term.

Vicious descent has to be the most useless thing GW have ever written by the way. You pay the CP to activate it in the movement phase, on a deepstriking unit. You pay CP to get rerolls before you even know if you made the charge or not.

Yup.

 McGibs wrote:

Jacob29 wrote:
cool new heads shown off for the CSM set, different to the original horned one showed off.

Thats an old plastic kit head (also on an old plastic marine, I dont think they painted up an entire army of each legion for photos, so theres still old models kicking around in the background.)

oh :(

The only thing vicious descent is good for is if you give your raptors special weapons. And it’s not worth 2 cp. they needed a +1 or 2 to charge range stratagem.

However remember that all these detachments come with a relic and warlord trait as well so I’m hopeful that of all these new detachments at least one will buff us

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Vicious descent has to be the most useless thing GW have ever written by the way. You pay the CP to activate it in the movement phase, on a deepstriking unit. You pay CP to get rerolls before you even know if you made the charge or not.

Yup.

To be fair, now that people are adding infiltrators to their armies, you'll be able to spend that CP comfortably in the knowledge that it's impossible to make the charge.

Mandragola wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Vicious descent has to be the most useless thing GW have ever written by the way. You pay the CP to activate it in the movement phase, on a deepstriking unit. You pay CP to get rerolls before you even know if you made the charge or not.

Yup.

To be fair, now that people are adding infiltrators to their armies, you'll be able to spend that CP comfortably in the knowledge that it's impossible to make the charge.

This being the biggest issue for me, every imperial army now has a 12" you fail bubble they can drop nearly anywhere that could be called useful during deployment.

Dudeface wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Vicious descent has to be the most useless thing GW have ever written by the way. You pay the CP to activate it in the movement phase, on a deepstriking unit. You pay CP to get rerolls before you even know if you made the charge or not.

Yup.

To be fair, now that people are adding infiltrators to their armies, you'll be able to spend that CP comfortably in the knowledge that it's impossible to make the charge.

This being the biggest issue for me, every imperial army now has a 12" you fail bubble they can drop nearly anywhere that could be called useful during deployment.

The simple answer is that you *don't* spend the CP in that situation. But, that also means that if you're seeing a lot of Infiltrators in your meta, you're not going to take Raptors or Warp talons at all in your list, which means the Host Raptorial is even more useless.

I would normally be the type to say 'let's way for the full rules before making snap judgements' but I've been burned by GW with Chaos Marines for 10 years. I have zero faith that Vigilus Ablaze or any of the new units will actually make this army good.