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My Chaos army is Iron Warriors and I can't say I'm disappointed with the new additions. Ignoring cover is a pretty decent trait to begin with, now I get to add a WT to reroll wounds of 1 vs vehicles.That's not too shabby since I take havoc sqds and oblits being Iron Warriors. I'm also looking forward to adding the Lord Discordant to my army to ride up with some daemon engines.
However, I also plan to add some other chaos detachments for some variety, why not? Having got the Blackstone Fortress set, I now have the character, added the 2 marines to the DV chosen models for his bodyguard and will probably get Abaddon and his terminators. They will be an elite detachment running as a Vanguard. I will probably also look at some of these renegade options for fun, plus I still have a bunch of marines from the Betrayal at Calth box sitting around. 30K weapons always look good on Chaos dudes.
There's a lot to be had with this new release, and if you are looking to be competitive with monobuild chaos, you will be disappointed. Be like Imperial players.....soup away.

Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.

No. Soup is bad. Soup is cancer on the game. I'm tired of being punished for not wanting to just pick the best out of a myriad of options.

as an aside, do we actually know that we aren't getting any kind of update to the rules for CSM in codex 2.0?

We know CSM is getting new wargear options, and we know at least some core rules (the cultist nerf) are happening. What are we going off when assuming there will be no updates to rules or points?

Waaaghbert wrote:
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.

Paraphrased from Bruce Lee?

Wayniac wrote:
No. Soup is bad. Soup is cancer on the game. I'm tired of being punished for not wanting to just pick the best out of a myriad of options.

But then don't sit back and complain that chaos are crap, why is GW punishing me! Imperials soup, Aeldaris soup.....chaos must soup. Abaddon has brought all of his minions together for a nice happy camping trip, why not sit around the campfire and sample the brew?

the_scotsman wrote:
as an aside, do we actually know that we aren't getting any kind of update to the rules for CSM in codex 2.0?

We know CSM is getting new wargear options, and we know at least some core rules (the cultist nerf) are happening. What are we going off when assuming there will be no updates to rules or points?

I don't know, and i question that we won't see any if they nerf Cultists then it would also be expected that the not performing parts of the CSM codex would get an upgrade of a kind.

As a follow up, am I right in assuming that Vigilus Ablaze is nothing but chaos? There are zero other detachments in there for anyone else???

 bullyboy wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
No. Soup is bad. Soup is cancer on the game. I'm tired of being punished for not wanting to just pick the best out of a myriad of options.

But then don't sit back and complain that chaos are crap, why is GW punishing me! Imperials soup, Aeldaris soup.....chaos must soup. Abaddon has brought all of his minions together for a nice happy camping trip, why not sit around the campfire and sample the brew?

Because even though abbadon brought all leaders to a table and gave them an objective, they still won't cooperate beyond that. There is no reason they seemingly work toghether seamlessly, because they will and would rather shank each other.

Wayniac wrote:
No. Soup is bad. Soup is cancer on the game. I'm tired of being punished for not wanting to just pick the best out of a myriad of options.

That's not the only application of soup. I often use Soup to make more fluffy games (i.e A Black Legion force use bloodshed to summon a unit of khorne daemons).

You punish yourself, sir, by thinking of a game of fun in only tournament level competitive terms.

#embracethesoup

the_scotsman wrote:
as an aside, do we actually know that we aren't getting any kind of update to the rules for CSM in codex 2.0?

We know CSM is getting new wargear options, and we know at least some core rules (the cultist nerf) are happening. What are we going off when assuming there will be no updates to rules or points?

They have stated that it's basically incorporating the FAQs, points from Chapter Approved, and any new datasheets (so Shadowspear, anything new coming in Vigilus like updated Abaddon, CSM options etc). Their own chart even shows if you already own the current book, you just buy Vigilus Ablaze and don't need to 2.0 book. That's what people are basing it on. It's a second printing, not a v2 in the same vein as 3.0 to 3.5 (which is what almost everyone expected/wanted).

The only way there could be updates would be if Vigilus also changes them. For instance, Vigilus will have to reprint the CSM datasheet if they are getting the rotor cannon as an option, so therefore it would also have to include matched play points. They *COULD* adjust the points for CSM in that case without making us wait until Chapter Approved 2019.

What this leaves up in the air though is something like the Lord Discordant. Will he be in Vigilus? If so, he would have to go on pre-order next week (when Vigilus releases) to avoid there being a lot of a gap where he has rules but no model available. If not, then there has to be something else on the horizon for chaos that we haven't been told about. Or if there will be a multipart kit for the Venomcrawler with different weapons (as we saw the artwork of one with two flamer type weapons, presumably Baleflamers). That would also have to be included in Vigilus as the Shadowspear variant only has the cannon.

There is, however, precedence for having the datasheet with no model available for a while: The Myphitic Blight-Hauler came out several months after the Death Guard codex so it had a period where there were rules but no model.

the_scotsman wrote:
as an aside, do we actually know that we aren't getting any kind of update to the rules for CSM in codex 2.0?

We know CSM is getting new wargear options, and we know at least some core rules (the cultist nerf) are happening. What are we going off when assuming there will be no updates to rules or points?

We aren't. We've been explicitly told the new rules (up to shadowspear, I'm not clear if it includes the vifilius rules, though that is heavily implied by the handy chart from sunday) and CA points updates are included.

war com wrote:we’ve given Codex: Chaos Space Marines a spruce-up! We’ve combined the previous codex with recent rules releases – including new datasheets, psychic powers, and Chapter Approved points changes – for your convenience.

 bullyboy wrote:
As a follow up, am I right in assuming that Vigilus Ablaze is nothing but chaos? There are zero other detachments in there for anyone else???

We don't know. From what they seem to be indicating yeah it's all Chaos.

Semper wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
No. Soup is bad. Soup is cancer on the game. I'm tired of being punished for not wanting to just pick the best out of a myriad of options.

That's not the only application of soup. I often use Soup to make more fluffy games (i.e A Black Legion force use bloodshed to summon a unit of khorne daemons).

You punish yourself, sir, by thinking of a game of fun in only tournament level competitive terms.

#embracethesoup

I think the real cancer in this game is the way CP's are handled. Soup would be fine if it didn't reward you with heaps of CP's. everyone should get the same amount of CP's and detachments with a different keyword to the main faction you've picked should -1 from that lot or whatever. This meta of taking a cheap battalion for lots of CP's to use with other armies is bad, because people who don't want to do that are penalised for it.
And the second thing that's bad for the hobby is the high lethality mixed with an IGOUGO system. One person gets to Slaughter the other player, then that player responds with whatever they have left. In such a lethal game, it sort of requires alternate activation, or the meta goes strait for alpha strike which really isn't fun at all. Or reduce the lethality if they want to stick with IGOUGO so people can enjoy using their units that they've spent hours building and painting.

That's just my opinion anyway.

Wayniac wrote:
What this leaves up in the air though is something like the Lord Discordant. Will he be in Vigilus? If so, he would have to go on pre-order next week (when Vigilus releases) to avoid there being a lot of a gap where he has rules but no model available. If not, then there has to be something else on the horizon for chaos that we haven't been told about. Or if there will be a multipart kit for the Venomcrawler with different weapons (as we saw the artwork of one with two flamer type weapons, presumably Baleflamers). That would also have to be included in Vigilus as the Shadowspear variant only has the cannon.

There is, however, precedence for having the datasheet with no model available for a while: The Myphitic Blight-Hauler came out several months after the Death Guard codex so it had a period where there were rules but no model.

They generally do this with bigger releases where they split it up over multiple weeks. The new Genestealer Cults Ridgerunner also came out after the codex was released. So there's a good chance the Lord Discordant will be released the week after.

Then you're not a competitive player so play whatever fluff you want and drop the whining 'slap in the face' nonsense. Competitive and fluffy do not perfectly align. Every unit/subfaction has to be different. Different cannot be equal, not across the thousands of unit/subfaction/choice combinations. Every competitive ever has taken an examination of the stats and played a list accordingly. It would be nearly impossible for GW or anyone else to create perfect equity between factions/sub factions.

You don't like soup? Well, alright, that's a pretty well expressed sentiment. But the broader the set of choices, the more likely you'll be able to find a good one. So you narrow it to CSM, you're invariably going to weaken yourself. But you hate cultists because wtf that's not really csm? Alright...here you go...have some CSM worth fielding. Legit, you *want* to have them. OMG THEY ARE NOT THE RIGHT SUBFACTION AND DON'T GIVE THE BONUS I WANT YOU MIGHT AS WELL BE PISSING ON MY GRAVE!! ..../sigh.

Man, at some point I wouldn't want to try to please chaos players anymore either.

Wayniac wrote:
You punish yourself, sir, by thinking of a game of fun in only tournament level competitive terms.

Precisely the problem with 40k as a gaming experience, and just about everything the Dub makes.

Semper wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
No. Soup is bad. Soup is cancer on the game. I'm tired of being punished for not wanting to just pick the best out of a myriad of options.

That's not the only application of soup. I often use Soup to make more fluffy games (i.e A Black Legion force use bloodshed to summon a unit of khorne daemons).

FWIW I think you're both right: Soup is terrible for the pursuit of a competitive, balanced meta. Soup is great for the pursuit of a thematic, fluff-first gaming experience.

But on the actual topic of C:CSM 8.5, slot in some Red Corsairs or call your Night Lords renegades if that's what you need to do. The value you chase in this game is not necessarily the value I chase. I prefer to run my <LEGION> dudes by making the most of their matching legion rules, as gakky as they may be. To me this is the true struggle of the Long War

drakerocket wrote:
Man, at some point I wouldn't want to try to please chaos players anymore either.

QFT ... with a wink towards C:CSM 3.5, The Greatest Codex, Uniter of the Ruinous Powers, May The Fires It Lit Never Die

Not Online!!! wrote:

Waaaghbert wrote:
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.

Paraphrased from Bruce Lee?

Yes, I could not resist

drakerocket wrote:
Then you're not a competitive player so play whatever fluff you want and drop the whining 'slap in the face' nonsense. Competitive and fluffy do not perfectly align. Every unit/subfaction has to be different. Different cannot be equal, not across the thousands of unit/subfaction/choice combinations. Every competitive ever has taken an examination of the stats and played a list accordingly. It would be nearly impossible for GW or anyone else to create perfect equity between factions/sub factions.

You don't like soup? Well, alright, that's a pretty well expressed sentiment. But the broader the set of choices, the more likely you'll be able to find a good one. So you narrow it to CSM, you're invariably going to weaken yourself. But you hate cultists because wtf that's not really csm? Alright...here you go...have some CSM worth fielding. Legit, you *want* to have them. OMG THEY ARE NOT THE RIGHT SUBFACTION AND DON'T GIVE THE BONUS I WANT YOU MIGHT AS WELL BE PISSING ON MY GRAVE!! ..../sigh.

Man, at some point I wouldn't want to try to please chaos players anymore either.

We're not all this bad.
I've seen the releases so far, some good some bad. Some I'll purchase and use, some I won't. No big deal.

I like how some people are actually berating others for wanting to play a fluffy army and not be completely worthless at the same time.
So yeah I want to play a pure Black Legion force, most likely led by Abaddon and this codex 2.0 was the perfect occasion for GW to improve the very underwhelming Legion traits that suffer strongly from early codex syndrome.
And thus, it's disheartening to see GW only changed the Renegade traits while also making them much better than the Legion traits. The Original Legions you know, Veterans of the Long War, a force to be feared and reckoned with...
But no, simply wanting my faction, one of the major one in the game to be "OK" (i'm not even asking for OP or uber competitive, just OK) is apparently making me an entitled whiner.

 krakjen wrote:
I like how some people are actually berating others for wanting to play a fluffy army and not be completely worthless at the same time.
So yeah I want to play a pure Black Legion force, most likely led by Abaddon and this codex 2.0 was the perfect occasion for GW to improve the very underwhelming Legion traits that suffer strongly from early codex syndrome.
And thus, it's disheartening to see GW only changed the Renegade traits while also making them much better than the Legion traits. The Original Legions you know, Veterans of the Long War, a force to be feared and reckoned with...
But no, simply wanting my faction, one of the major one in the game to be "OK" (i'm not even asking for OP or uber competitive, just OK) is apparently making me an entitled whiner.

It has previously been noted, but Renegades do not get Veterans of the Long War, probably the most useful stratagem in the book (well, when tag-teamed with some of the others anyway)

They also don't get Abaddon.

In fact, prior to this book Renegades didn't even get a relic or a warlord trait.
We've kinda had a bum deal for a while. Its nice we've been given some stuff to put us on more of an even position than some of the other codex.
Is it too much? Maybe, but perhaps the rest of the traits/relics/stratagems will balance it.

 Denny wrote:

 krakjen wrote:
I like how some people are actually berating others for wanting to play a fluffy army and not be completely worthless at the same time.
So yeah I want to play a pure Black Legion force, most likely led by Abaddon and this codex 2.0 was the perfect occasion for GW to improve the very underwhelming Legion traits that suffer strongly from early codex syndrome.
And thus, it's disheartening to see GW only changed the Renegade traits while also making them much better than the Legion traits. The Original Legions you know, Veterans of the Long War, a force to be feared and reckoned with...
But no, simply wanting my faction, one of the major one in the game to be "OK" (i'm not even asking for OP or uber competitive, just OK) is apparently making me an entitled whiner.

It has previously been noted, but Renegades do not get Veterans of the Long War, probably the most useful stratagem in the book (well, when tag-teamed with some of the others anyway)

They also don't get Abaddon.

In fact, prior to this book Renegades didn't even get a relic or a warlord trait.
We've kinda had a bum deal for a while. Its nice we've been given some stuff to put us on more of an even position than some of the other codex.
Is it too much? Maybe, but perhaps the rest of the traits/relics/stratagems will balance it.

Just to be clear, I don't resent Renegades for getting a good traits.
My point is that everyone should have a good trait.

This just feels like GW doesn't care about the Legion having outdated underpowered traits and only cares about whatever is new at a given moment.

 Denny wrote:

 krakjen wrote:
I like how some people are actually berating others for wanting to play a fluffy army and not be completely worthless at the same time.
So yeah I want to play a pure Black Legion force, most likely led by Abaddon and this codex 2.0 was the perfect occasion for GW to improve the very underwhelming Legion traits that suffer strongly from early codex syndrome.
And thus, it's disheartening to see GW only changed the Renegade traits while also making them much better than the Legion traits. The Original Legions you know, Veterans of the Long War, a force to be feared and reckoned with...
But no, simply wanting my faction, one of the major one in the game to be "OK" (i'm not even asking for OP or uber competitive, just OK) is apparently making me an entitled whiner.

It has previously been noted, but Renegades do not get Veterans of the Long War, probably the most useful stratagem in the book (well, when tag-teamed with some of the others anyway)

They also don't get Abaddon.

In fact, prior to this book Renegades didn't even get a relic or a warlord trait.
We've kinda had a bum deal for a while. Its nice we've been given some stuff to put us on more of an even position than some of the other codex.
Is it too much? Maybe, but perhaps the rest of the traits/relics/stratagems will balance it.

VOTLW I can agree with, but the plethora of CP means you can spend a ton on other things.

Abaddon? Just take him in another detachment since you're likely to only see the "Heretical 17" anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 krakjen wrote:

Just to be clear, I don't resent Renegades for getting a good traits.
My point is that everyone should have a good trait.

This just feels like GW doesn't care about the Legion having outdated underpowered traits and only cares about whatever is new at a given moment.

This is my problem, in a nutshell They *HAD* the chance to fix the lousy legion traits. They *CHOSE* not to and *CHOSE* to instead split up Renegades into 6 traits instead of 1 (so changing something but not everything) AND make them better than the Legions. It's classic GW, and it still after all these years feels like being smacked around and then told it's okay afterwards.

 krakjen wrote:

My point is that everyone should have a good trait.

So in which codex has this actually happened? At the moment GW announced that there would be free subfaction traits, it was a foregone conclusion that some would be just better than others.

 krakjen wrote:

 Denny wrote:

 krakjen wrote:
I like how some people are actually berating others for wanting to play a fluffy army and not be completely worthless at the same time.
So yeah I want to play a pure Black Legion force, most likely led by Abaddon and this codex 2.0 was the perfect occasion for GW to improve the very underwhelming Legion traits that suffer strongly from early codex syndrome.
And thus, it's disheartening to see GW only changed the Renegade traits while also making them much better than the Legion traits. The Original Legions you know, Veterans of the Long War, a force to be feared and reckoned with...
But no, simply wanting my faction, one of the major one in the game to be "OK" (i'm not even asking for OP or uber competitive, just OK) is apparently making me an entitled whiner.

It has previously been noted, but Renegades do not get Veterans of the Long War, probably the most useful stratagem in the book (well, when tag-teamed with some of the others anyway)

They also don't get Abaddon.

In fact, prior to this book Renegades didn't even get a relic or a warlord trait.
We've kinda had a bum deal for a while. Its nice we've been given some stuff to put us on more of an even position than some of the other codex.
Is it too much? Maybe, but perhaps the rest of the traits/relics/stratagems will balance it.

Just to be clear, I don't resent Renegades for getting a good traits.
My point is that everyone should have a good trait.

This just feels like GW doesn't care about the Legion having outdated underpowered traits and only cares about whatever is new at a given moment.

Orks get really, really good traits. Why? Because they have other weaknesses to compensate for. Renegades have weaknesses as well. Are they enough to offset the traits? I don't know, but if you're WL is Abaddon then you've already covered most of the bonus for a RC detachment.

 Crimson wrote:

 krakjen wrote:

My point is that everyone should have a good trait.

So in which codex has this actually happened? At the moment GW announced that there would be free subfaction traits, it was a foregone conclusion that some would be just better than others.

Nobody, sure but there is a difference between a codex with a couple of bad traits and the rest good and a codex where almost everything is bad and then GW release a v2 without changing anything,

 krakjen wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 krakjen wrote:

My point is that everyone should have a good trait.

So in which codex has this actually happened? At the moment GW announced that there would be free subfaction traits, it was a foregone conclusion that some would be just better than others.

Nobody, sure but there is a difference between a codex with a couple of bad traits and the rest good and a codex where almost everything is bad and then GW release a v2 without changing anything,

Worse, where GW releases a v2 without changing anything except giving one subgroup of a subgroup inexplicably better talents than the ones they said they weren't going to change anything with, despite having the opportunity to do it and doing it for a minor part already.

They're quite late on today's article. I wonder if they're reworking it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They're quite late on today's article. I wonder if they're reworking it.

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Maybe they'll skip it today because they released two yesterday?