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40mm bases for havocs makes it difficult to use those models to represent alternate heavy weapons in regular CSM squads, which is a shame!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Your complaint seems to mainly do with the limits of using a D6 system.

Not at all and I got no idea where you got that conclusion. The chain cannon could work with 8 shots but only S3. It could even work at S4. Just not at S5 AP-1 ON TOP of 8 shots.
That way you get one weapon that hits harder and another that shoots more, each one has its advantages over the other. Not one weapon being an incredibly inferior version of the other.

I got that conclusion because of you complaining about how a single point of difference in stats can totally change everything. That's mostly because of the D6 system. If -1 to hit was done when shooting on a D8 or D10, the bonus is still effective but not brokenly so. Does that make sense?

no
hit on 4+ and -1 is 5+ or changing to D8 and hit of 5+ is turned into a 6+ is just a minor difference in overall statistics

A D8 or D10 adds more possibility, but if a rule system doesn't even use the range a D6 provides and everything is too similar so that some options are clear better than others, changing the dice won't do anything

 Raichase wrote:
40mm bases for havocs makes it difficult to use those models to represent alternate heavy weapons in regular CSM squads, which is a shame!

If you play in a regulated environment then yeah, that can happen. If you just play as GW intends, the difference in base size doesn't matter.

Just look at Skitarii. Two out of three special weapon guys fit on a 25mm, but there's a humongous oval base in the box for the third guy who's lugging around and equally humongous anti-materiel rifle. And yet, no problems whatsoever having that in the same squad.

btw if anyone has an un-assembled havoc kit, could that person be kind enough to showcase an intact version of that mysterious third sprue set?

I'm gonna be a little salty if all GW releases next week is the Executioner and dark Apostle

Snugiraffe wrote:

The Assault 3 would only apply when advancing, wouldn't it? Black Legion would suddenly get a 'heavy' weapon that they could fire when advancing. Doesn't sound like much of a nerf to me.

It would. That is the advantage Black Legion would have with their Trait. It would allow them to advance to cover a lot of ground getting 3 more S5 AP -1 shots in the process. I could see using this to rush toward objectives early game as well as make use of it quickly move to another part of the table and still provide some threat given it gives Heavy Bolters a potential range of 43-48". Sure there is the -1 but that is really good range for an infantry weapon.

What I did forget about was Bolter Discipline which reward marines for standing still. I haven't played 40k since this beta rule and it doesn't exist in Kill Team. Galef is right in that it does often offer a much bigger advantage to stay put and still double the fire power regardless of range. Which is more useful in most cases. I am not saying that RF 3 Heavy Bolters would suddenly make the Black Legion awesome. Just that as a player that already made use of Heavy Bolters in their Black Legion army, I could see me taking advantage of the change since I already tend to play a highly mobile, if still footslogging, army. There is an argument to made that Galef's suggestion could actual make the Black Legion trait less bad and more inline with many of subfaction traits.

So the Havoc kit...

Option for the Aspiring Champion
Havoc A can be Reaper Chaincannon, Heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc B makes heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc C makes Lascannon or missile launcher
Havoc D makes Lascannon or missile launcher.

No idea if you can fit the bits to make, say, a 2 Lascannon and 2 Missile launcher squad. I am about to have a play around so will report back.

What's the justification for Havocs being bigger and tougher than regular CSM exactly? Is the Chaos range the most ridiculously out of scale line now?

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
So the Havoc kit...

Option for the Aspiring Champion
Havoc A can be Reaper Chaincannon, Heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc B makes heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc C makes Lascannon or missile launcher
Havoc D makes Lascannon or missile launcher.

No idea if you can fit the bits to make, say, a 2 Lascannon and 2 Missile launcher squad. I am about to have a play around so will report back.

You only get 8 shoulder pads, so you need to field either 2 rocket launchers or Lascannons, since they are included on the weapon, positively you get 11 pads pairs in a csm box.

Eh, kinda stinks, but I want to make 2 lascannons and 2 autocannons, so it works for me.

I’m going to put the chaincannon on a normal unit of CSM’s.

What's the justification for Havocs being bigger and tougher than regular CSM exactly? Is the Chaos range the most ridiculously out of scale line now?

There isn't. It's absurd.

I'll be mounting mine on regular sized bases and playing them as toughness 4. They have no business being bigger or tougher.

I can't stand inconsistency.

third havoc sprue

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

What's the justification for Havocs being bigger and tougher than regular CSM exactly? Is the Chaos range the most ridiculously out of scale line now?

There isn't. It's absurd.

I'll be mounting mine on regular sized bases and playing them as toughness 4. They have no business being bigger or tougher.

I can't stand inconsistency.

Right. Because chaos has never ever caused any mutations or any such changes...

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

What's the justification for Havocs being bigger and tougher than regular CSM exactly? Is the Chaos range the most ridiculously out of scale line now?

There isn't. It's absurd.

I'll be mounting mine on regular sized bases and playing them as toughness 4. They have no business being bigger or tougher.

I can't stand inconsistency.

Then why on earth ar you playing an army literally named "chaos"

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm gonna be a little salty if all GW releases next week is the Executioner and dark Apostle

Maybe they've been doing a production lull to prepare for something big? Rather than produce the chaos release 100% of the time frame, they shifted to a X%/Y% split so the next release will have enough stock.

Or just produced a lot more restocks in general... they certainly need that as well

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm gonna be a little salty if all GW releases next week is the Executioner and dark Apostle

why? it's what we're expecting. I for one am going to be pleasently suprised if we get more

BrianDavion wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm gonna be a little salty if all GW releases next week is the Executioner and dark Apostle

why? it's what we're expecting. I for one am going to be pleasently suprised if we get more

Some people are never satisfied.

This is a full resculpt of much of the range with a few surprise new units and people are expecting more? Righto.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
There isn't. It's absurd.

I'll be mounting mine on regular sized bases and playing them as toughness 4. They have no business being bigger or tougher.

I can't stand inconsistency.

"I'll be ignoring the rules because I don't like them"

I hope you don't hold an opponent to those standards. Otherwise the only consistency you'll find is "no one wants to play".

(Psst. You might want to look at how much thicker their armor is. Just a thought.)

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm gonna be a little salty if all GW releases next week is the Executioner and dark Apostle

why? it's what we're expecting. I for one am going to be pleasently suprised if we get more

Some people are never satisfied.

This is a full resculpt of much of the range with a few surprise new units and people are expecting more? Righto.

yeah I mean don't get me wrong, I've got a short list of stuff I'd like to see in addition too. new posessed, an obliterator kit, a venom crawler kit, a fancy new chaos lord, new bikes, new noise marines and bezerkers, but at the same time? I'd say I'm pretty happy with this release. the CORE of CSMs has been revitalized.

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm gonna be a little salty if all GW releases next week is the Executioner and dark Apostle

why? it's what we're expecting. I for one am going to be pleasently suprised if we get more

Some people are never satisfied.

This is a full resculpt of much of the range with a few surprise new units and people are expecting more? Righto.

yeah I mean don't get me wrong, I've got a short list of stuff I'd like to see in addition too. new posessed, an obliterator kit, a venom crawler kit, a fancy new chaos lord, new bikes, new noise marines and bezerkers, but at the same time? I'd say I'm pretty happy with this release. the CORE of CSMs has been revitalized.

I have been very content with the Chaos release. I all I really wanted was Abbadon, new CSMs and Havocs. Everything else has been gravy. If there was even more that's great, but it would have to wait anyways as I generally don't like having huge piles of stuff to build and paint. I certainly hope more factions (thinking of all that Eldar finecast) get a massive update in the future.

What i think is silly are the fact that raptors and warp talons are hoping around with talons that do nothing for them, meanwhile my normal CSM squads could be running and gunning

Or that Havocs have bigger better armor then normal power armored character models, if anything just the modeling difference is kind of odd.

BTW I did notice that the new terminators have an entirely different inner diameters on their shoulder pad then the old ones. Meaning you can't use old pads on the new models, so good luck hunting down extras I wonder if FW terminator pads will even work.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

What's the justification for Havocs being bigger and tougher than regular CSM exactly? Is the Chaos range the most ridiculously out of scale line now?

There isn't. It's absurd.

I'll be mounting mine on regular sized bases and playing them as toughness 4. They have no business being bigger or tougher.

I can't stand inconsistency.

Lol. You're going to gimp yourself?

 Togusa wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

What's the justification for Havocs being bigger and tougher than regular CSM exactly? Is the Chaos range the most ridiculously out of scale line now?

There isn't. It's absurd.

I'll be mounting mine on regular sized bases and playing them as toughness 4. They have no business being bigger or tougher.

I can't stand inconsistency.

Lol. You're going to gimp yourself?

Why though, havocs are the most insane and probably one of the most effecitve chaos units, if they kill in the name of the gods they will get rewarded, if that means they get roided and becaome bigger to increase mobility for their HW's the chaos gods will make it so.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

What's the justification for Havocs being bigger and tougher than regular CSM exactly? Is the Chaos range the most ridiculously out of scale line now?

There isn't. It's absurd.

I'll be mounting mine on regular sized bases and playing them as toughness 4. They have no business being bigger or tougher.

I can't stand inconsistency.

Maybe it's just me, but it feels like T5 Havok being problem is weird considering any CSM unit could be bumped up to T5 via the Mark of Nurgle before 8th.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm gonna be a little salty if all GW releases next week is the Executioner and dark Apostle

why? it's what we're expecting. I for one am going to be pleasently suprised if we get more

Some people are never satisfied.

This is a full resculpt of much of the range with a few surprise new units and people are expecting more? Righto.

I'm more Than satisfied since I don't play csm. It's just this release has been dragging on. These last 2 easily could have been in the same release cycle as the lord discordant. Between leaks and announcements for almost 2 months it's become... less exciting

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

What's the justification for Havocs being bigger and tougher than regular CSM exactly? Is the Chaos range the most ridiculously out of scale line now?

There isn't. It's absurd.

I'll be mounting mine on regular sized bases and playing them as toughness 4. They have no business being bigger or tougher.

I can't stand inconsistency.

Maybe it's just me, but it feels like T5 Havok being problem is weird considering any CSM unit could be bumped up to T5 via the Mark of Nurgle before 8th.

Not really, the equivalent here would thus make them T6 and the rest T5, they're not different than any other joe schmoe in power armour so should be the same.
Had they buffed all the other marines to T5 nobody would bat an eye.

So...?

Berzerkers are S5 despite looking just as scraggy as any regular marine.

And Chaplain Cassius is T6 due to bionics; noone seems to mind.

It seems like GW is going down the "on their way to becoming Obliterators" route with Havocs. That would suit the larger models and T5.

It actually is kind of neat if every branch away from standard CSM shows the progression towards daemonhood for that particular poison. We have Havocs looking like mini Obliterators now, and Raptors moving towards Warp Talons.

It does sort of leave Chosen and Terminators in a bit of a flavourless rut though.

I figured it was Terminators into Mutilators and Havocs into Obliterators, Raptors into Warp Talons, with CSM and Chosen into Possessed and Greater Possessed.

 Darkseid wrote:
So...?

Berzerkers are S5 despite looking just as scraggy as any regular marine.

And Chaplain Cassius is T6 due to bionics; noone seems to mind.

One is a character, the other is a specialized unit. Anything goes with those.
Berzerkers had S5 for a while but it wasn't via their profile, they got it through furious charge.
At least it could make sense here in that these are all roided out due to khorne and/or focused on martial ability, aka they hit the gym more than your average marine.

Havocs are the same as any other regular marine, it would have made more sense to improve their BS. The run and shoot is explained via stabilizers at least.
obliterators are also T5 and like three times the size, so being on their way to oblits also makes no sense, apart from not making sense fluffwise either depending on which fluff you go by.
It's not armour either as out termies also only have T4. If they wanted to go that way then at least give them " wounds like the termies or vice versa.