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the_scotsman wrote:

You're right, it's totally unrealistic for us to have female models in the game with ballistic skill better than 4+! All those guardsmen who had their eyeballs super-enhanced by testosterone durning their embrios should get BS3+ and the females should ignore cover because they see color better.

Because THAT's the level of variation between individuals that the ruleset of 40k provides for, a game where 1 point in a stat is what separates the strength a normal man from a hulking alien fungus gorilla.

What part of all human fetuses going through such changes you do not understand. Women have a better spectrum visibility. There is ton of research done on it. And not just if it is true, but also why. Most link it to the fact that females were gathering fruits and had to be able to judge how ripe they are. At the same time males that hunted, and this goes pre homo sapines, were the ones that hunted and were tasked with defense. And "our" first defense was throwing stuff and its co ordination. To a degree all humans have "super enhanced" eye sight. Though the changes that make let you focus your eye sight better, judge movment or stay super focused, happen because of testosteron. It also has bad sides too it too. Men lose sight faster. The changes that let their brain focus on one thing, and "cut off" the rest of the world, which is great for hunting or sniping, if they effect the brain too strong you end up with someone with autism.

This is why space marines would not need any extra upgrades to have a better eye sight, comparing to an unupgraded sister of battle. Considering that they do have those upgrades, both in the form of sound and flash dampers build in to their body, they would always be better at shoting, bar "magic" somehow eqaulising the difference.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's really not helping anyone to try to justify this rule on fluff and argue whether other armies with bolt weapons should get it too; it's a Marine rule designed specifically for making Marines better, if it was generally applied to every army that uses bolt weapons then that would completely defeat the purpose.

Nailed it, basically.

Much of the SM armies are complete trash tier, being outperformed by index Sisters. The worst armies in the game right now are Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and non-Ultramarine codex marines.

Trash tier armies deserve buffs. If we're going to make fluff an argument for rules, then marines should have a rerollable 2++ and 10 attacks apiece. We're not prepared to do that, so let's just depart from the fluff when discussing balance.

It's the problem that is common with special snowflake rules being introduced to compliment fluff and also affect balance - everyone has their 2 cents as to why their faction should have special rules over others. "well if marines have it, why can't I?"

"Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."

Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.

Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.

There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.

Bharring wrote:
"Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."

Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.

Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.

There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.

Precisely, also its a game....so theres that too =P I blame the warp.

Now back to the meat of this board. I just noticed for 276 points your average repulsor loaded with storm bolters and onslaught/HBs is now going to average 24 Str 5 shots and 20 str 4 shots at around 24". Throw that on top of having a trailing Captain/Guilliman and the 10 man intercessor squad inside with the new Indomitous strategem and it looks like A LOT of things can die. Do it twice for maximum destruction for under 800 points. Id love to do this with a Valiant or a Gallant leading the way to REALLY mess with your opponents target priority.

Well I for one am very pleased to see SM get a buff for their iconic weapon. Fluff-wise it makes sense too given their training and enhanced abilities.

Bharring wrote:
"Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."

Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.

Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.

There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.

I never really understood what GW's objection was to giving some of the truly heroic models 1+ stats.

It wouldn't make a difference 90% of the time but why should an avatar or demon primarch or Primarch give a toss if someones got some quick reactions or glittering armour.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?

I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.

Sisters of silence *cough*

And Scions should get a stratagem which allows them to turn up their hot-shot lasguns to Strength 4.

As an overcharge effect? Yeah makes sense.

Not like plasma, but something to really make that power back pack a bit more worth it. Or extend the range. The old codex has a way to extend hot-shot range.

I'd rather Hot Shots go to Assault 2.

 Haighus wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:


Sisters lack black carpace, and the super human genome.

The super human stuff has little to do with shooting ability in most cases. The Black Carapace's application in this regard is questionable, it may have an effect, however IIRC it's generally not portrayed in any way in most GW fiction, and is usually portrayed by reducing size, stealth, or movement penalties in stuff like RPGs as opposed to having any shooting enhancement. Little in the way of other genetic enhancements have anything to do with shooting capability except eyesight (which, when used through helmet cams and weapons optics, is probably relatively equalized).

The black carapace links the Marine better to their armour systems. This means the armour functions directly as an extension of their nervous system, and includes the armour's autosenses.

The Marine boltgun is also linked to the autosenses, so the black carapace should allow an instinctive control over where the boltgun is actually aiming above and beyond simply having a targeting reticule on the HUD- the difference between using a gun on a video game, and knowing where your own finger is pointing.

Further to this, it is common that Marines are pointed out as being able to parse large amounts of data quickly in a way all but the most exceptional unaugmented humans cannot. Their HUD can display a huge amount of tactical information. There is no reason that this enhanced intellectual ability, combined with the superior autosenses shouldn't provide a tangible benefit to medium range shooting. They should simply be able to identify, acquire, lock on to, shoot, and reacquire a new target quicker than a unaugmented human, even with extensive training.

At least as far as I'm aware, the Black Carapace doesnt affect shooting so much, but rather to allow giant 9ft tall walking tanks to move and operate more naturally, as opposed to...like a giant 9ft tall walking tank. Autosensing HUDs are neat, but Sisters have such advanced power armor doodads too, and if we're talking HUD's and autosenses, then we're removing most of the shooter element from the equation anyway.

With regards to SM mental ability, unfortunately this is one of those things where GW is so variable and vague that it's hard to gauge this. Some authors talk about this, most don't, and its never really been portrayed in rules (even in the FFG rpg material, SM's arent any smarter or intelligent than anyone else) and there is no geneseed/genetic component to it (IIRC), but rather it's from training/hypnoindoctrination/chemical treatments/psychological conditioning/etc, and the Schola Progenium fluff (where Sisters and Stormtroopers start out) describes extensive use of such techniques itself.

That isn't to say that Sisters couldn't use this buff in a reasonably fluffy way, but the line is arbitrary and needs to be drawn somewhere

And thats fine, I can totally live with it being just a Marine rule, that doesn't bother me at all, I just didn't think the idea of it also applying to Sisters was as outrageous as it was made out to be as most SM enhancement is more geared to close combat and survival stuff.

Bharring wrote:
"Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."

Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.

Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.

There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.

I am totally fine with exarchs having 2+ to hit - I think that was a great representation of their superior skill. It is also true that the D6 system is very limited in what it can do. You can get around it with special rules though. Perhaps a vet guardsmen can shoot as well a marine in most circumstances but how about when hitting a -1 to hit target like a flyer or an eldar bike weaving in and out using "lightning fast reflexes" perhaps a marine should not suffer penalty here but a vet guardsmen should. Perhaps that should also be a rule for any "heroic level" unit as well. Again - I am not really complaining about vets and marines having the same to hit roll in game terms - it is an unfortunate consequence of the d6 system. However, it is disappointing that there is no other attempt to distinguish units that should have a larger gap in their skill than what is represented in game terms.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
If anything sisters should be able to get sanctified bolter shells that deal an additional wound to chaos targets. Or maybe anti-psyker bolter shells?

I would mind them get special ammunition for the specialist sister units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Sisters are hella elite, that's true, the best normal human troops there is, but Custodes don't get this rule either.

Sisters of silence *cough*

And Scions should get a stratagem which allows them to turn up their hot-shot lasguns to Strength 4.

As an overcharge effect? Yeah makes sense.

Not like plasma, but something to really make that power back pack a bit more worth it. Or extend the range. The old codex has a way to extend hot-shot range.

I'd rather Hot Shots go to Assault 2.

I'd rather volley guns go to assault 4 (or 3), grenade launchers go to assault 2, and hot-shot lasguns stay the same.
I like to think of Scions as more of hyper-specialized agent commandos jumping from Hum-vees and leaping from helicopters, pure black-ops sci-fi stuff, rather than they become crazy heavy saturation drop troops like Harakoni Warhawks. I think of Scions as thrusting daggers and soldiers like the Warhawks as grenades, if that makes any sense.
And I definitely don't want Scions to retconned into a replacement for things like Elysians and Warhawks.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."

Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.

Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.

There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.

Precisely, also its a game....so theres that too =P I blame the warp.

Now back to the meat of this board. I just noticed for 276 points your average repulsor loaded with storm bolters and onslaught/HBs is now going to average 24 Str 5 shots and 20 str 4 shots at around 24". Throw that on top of having a trailing Captain/Guilliman and the 10 man intercessor squad inside with the new Indomitous strategem and it looks like A LOT of things can die. Do it twice for maximum destruction for under 800 points. Id love to do this with a Valiant or a Gallant leading the way to REALLY mess with your opponents target priority.

Once those marines are disembarked from the repulsor. A Castellan realistically 1 shot both those targets without even allowing a saving throw. Yeah it's true that unit under the Gman buff can murderize a large swath of chaff units but it is simply unplayable in game terms.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Also you cited their Bolter being better before but you never provided a source on it.

Witch Hunters Codex, page 19 describes the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter as superior to other weapons of its class.

What that actually means...who knows.

Ultimately, I don't think anything about Space Marines that would make them notably better at Bolter work than Sisters (as opposed to close combat or extended duration field operations, etc).

Most Space Marines have been training daily with their bolt weapons longer than a Sister of Battle has been alive. And have probably spent more days in combat with the bolt weapons than Sisters have spent being Sisters of Battle.

Nevermind the advanced bionics and integrated targeting systems (SoB don't have the Black Carapace).

And this is not signifying that the bolt weapon is superior, it is signifying that the USER is superior.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"Fluff wise any human having the same to hit roll as a space marine is an absolute joke."

Fluffwise, the average sub-decade Battle Brother has the same to-hit roll as an Exarch who has done nothing but his path for millenia.

Fluffwise, some random sub-century Librarian chump has the same to-hit as Asurman, a pre-fall hero of the Eldar people who predates the Empire itself.

There just aren't enough ranges. Theres blind (6+), poorly trained (5+), well trained (4+), super-well-trained (3+) and heroic (2+). They need to jam every skill level possible into that small range.

Precisely, also its a game....so theres that too =P I blame the warp.

Now back to the meat of this board. I just noticed for 276 points your average repulsor loaded with storm bolters and onslaught/HBs is now going to average 24 Str 5 shots and 20 str 4 shots at around 24". Throw that on top of having a trailing Captain/Guilliman and the 10 man intercessor squad inside with the new Indomitous strategem and it looks like A LOT of things can die. Do it twice for maximum destruction for under 800 points. Id love to do this with a Valiant or a Gallant leading the way to REALLY mess with your opponents target priority.

Once those marines are disembarked from the repulsor. A Castellan realistically 1 shot both those targets without even allowing a saving throw. Yeah it's true that unit under the Gman buff can murderize a large swath of chaff units but it is simply unplayable in game terms.

Im beginning to think units like the Castellan are really removing the fun from this game.

 Mr Morden wrote:
So by that argument Scions are more elite than both Sisters and Marines?

Kinda, yeah. It really puzzles me that marines are dumb enough to ignore multiple laser weapons fielded by Imperium that are plainly better that bolters judging by stats, on top of being cheaper and more reliable in fluff. Especially seeing SM carries what, like 50-60 bolts tops, while their backpacks would give them virtually unlimited laser ammo...

 Captain Joystick wrote:
And to be fair, even as a Sisters player I feel like space marines should be better with the bolter - they train with it as their standard core weapon and apply superhuman faculties to git good with it, and while the De'az may be a superior model (according to a 3rd edition book loaded with self agrandizement as per the norm) the sisters are still ultimately only human, and it's not unfair to suggest their fanatical enthusiasm for three types of weapons might leave them less proficient with one of them as opposed to literal superhumans devoting the lions share of their focus to the one.

Uh, what?

If anything, it's the Sisters who devote 100% to the bolter, flamer and melta are only handed to veterans. And it's still just 3 weapons, compared to two dozen options SM can take. I'd expect both to have similar amount of training in bolt guns, seeing SM also has to learn wacky stuff like aiming grav guns, missile launchers, or plasma cannons, vastly different weapons needing completely different skills, on top of doing thunder hammer/chain sword/power axe fighting, again, hard to learn completely different skillsets. Compared to this, Sisters have it trivial with bolter and melta aiming being largely identical, transferable, and using the same set of muscle memory triggers.

Note I am not saying Sisters should get this rule if that upset balance too much (though for them it would be trivial, tiny change, basically just shooting tiny bit better if standing still seeing they don't have TDA or bikes) but the amount of rage grasping at straws I seen in last few days (that one model in PA with largely identical training dares to have same rules as another PA model just because it's a girl) is hilarious

 Irbis wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So by that argument Scions are more elite than both Sisters and Marines?

Kinda, yeah. It really puzzles me that marines are dumb enough to ignore multiple laser weapons fielded by Imperium that are plainly better that bolters judging by stats, on top of being cheaper and more reliable in fluff. Especially seeing SM carries what, like 50-60 bolts tops, while their backpacks would give them virtually unlimited laser ammo...

You have an AdMech avatar and you're wondering why an Imperium faction doesn't value efficiency and common sense over tradition?

Come to think of it, if we want to judge how good a unit is by its fluff dedication and fanaticism, I could have sworn I heard that in a book a pissed-off Inquisitor ordered a bunch of Scions into a shootout with Adeptus Custodes. And, of course, dogmatically following orders, they shot at the Custodes.

It's a balance change peeps, because evidently SM were/are poor competitively. Sisters are nowhere near as poor competitively (in fact they're pretty damn good) so they don't need the rule.

The same is true of Custodes or any other bolter-wielding model you think deserve the rule.

 Vaktathi wrote:
At least as far as I'm aware, the Black Carapace doesnt affect shooting so much, but rather to allow giant 9ft tall walking tanks to move and operate more naturally, as opposed to...like a giant 9ft tall walking tank. Autosensing HUDs are neat, but Sisters have such advanced power armor doodads too, and if we're talking HUD's and autosenses, then we're removing most of the shooter element from the equation anyway.

With regards to SM mental ability, unfortunately this is one of those things where GW is so variable and vague that it's hard to gauge this. Some authors talk about this, most don't, and its never really been portrayed in rules (even in the FFG rpg material, SM's arent any smarter or intelligent than anyone else) and there is no geneseed/genetic component to it (IIRC), but rather it's from training/hypnoindoctrination/chemical treatments/psychological conditioning/etc, and the Schola Progenium fluff (where Sisters and Stormtroopers start out) describes extensive use of such techniques itself.

That isn't to say that Sisters couldn't use this buff in a reasonably fluffy way, but the line is arbitrary and needs to be drawn somewhere

And thats fine, I can totally live with it being just a Marine rule, that doesn't bother me at all, I just didn't think the idea of it also applying to Sisters was as outrageous as it was made out to be as most SM enhancement is more geared to close combat and survival stuff.

The chief difference, for me, is that the SoB are simply reading their HUD, whereas the Marine has the ability to feel it through the black carapace, which is basically the entire point of it- to fully integrate the armour's systems with the Marine's nervous system. Don't forget that all Marine and SoB boltguns have inbuilt autosense targeters*, so if Marines have a better interface with the autosenses, they are going to be able to use the targeters more efficiently.

The black carapace affecting shooting not so much, sure, but then this buff isn't huge We are just talking about a significant enough difference to get more aimed shots off at longer range, not a huge increase overall.

The intelligence stuff is inconsistent, but the ability to process lots of data in particular is the most consistent part. That isn't intelligence per se- they can't necessarily use that in a useful way but it certainly helps with rapid reactions when acquiring fleeting targets at long range. It is all an abstraction after all.

I agree though, the idea of it applying to Sisters is not outrageous, but I also think it is not particularly outrageous that Marines shoot their bolters a little better.

*I'm not sure which part of a standard boltgun model this is supposed to be though, presumably one of the protusions next to the barrel. Obviously any attached scopes are also linked in.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
It's a balance change peeps, because evidently SM were/are poor competitively. Sisters are nowhere near as poor competitively (in fact they're pretty damn good) so they don't need the rule.

The same is true of Custodes or any other bolter-wielding model you think deserve the rule.

That is the crux of the matter and I for one cheer for any attempt to bring balance to the game (and coincidentally, the force). This shows that the dev team is taking the game seriously when it comes to getting armies out on the field and competing against each other in a level manner. I hope everyone gets something like that in order to make them more competitive. Its not a huge change, but it is enough to make a difference. I just wish it had more of an impact to Tactical Squads, who need the love right now.

 Irbis wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So by that argument Scions are more elite than both Sisters and Marines?

Kinda, yeah. It really puzzles me that marines are dumb enough to ignore multiple laser weapons fielded by Imperium that are plainly better that bolters judging by stats, on top of being cheaper and more reliable in fluff. Especially seeing SM carries what, like 50-60 bolts tops, while their backpacks would give them virtually unlimited laser ammo...

I would say the very old reasoning for this is that Marines are meant to be shock troops, so they used weaponry which had particularly violent and gory effects on their foes, but were still reasonably effective, like Volkite weapons and bolters. It was to get the enemy to surrender as much as kill them.

By the 41st millennium, this is simply tradition, and trying to cow various human worlds into joining the nascent Imperium is a distant memory, but they are stuck with the weapons.

Perhaps bolters need a rule to make moral effects more relevant then?

I'd suggest they convert this to a d8 or d10 system, but that doesn't solve the core problems in 8th edition:

Some infantry are just way too cheap for what they do.
Some infantry are just way too expensive for what they do.

In general, bigger things are just way too lethal. Example: Castellan, Shadowsword.

The whole game should be scaled up from the bottom and down from the top.

 Marmatag wrote:
I'd suggest they convert this to a d8 or d10 system, but that doesn't solve the core problems in 8th edition:

Some infantry are just way too cheap for what they do.
Some infantry are just way too expensive for what they do.

In general, bigger things are just way too lethal. Example: Castellan, Shadowsword.

The whole game should be scaled up from the bottom and down from the top.

It feels right that the big things are hugely lethal though- they should just up the points until they are appropriate for that lethality.

 Haighus wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So by that argument Scions are more elite than both Sisters and Marines?

Kinda, yeah. It really puzzles me that marines are dumb enough to ignore multiple laser weapons fielded by Imperium that are plainly better that bolters judging by stats, on top of being cheaper and more reliable in fluff. Especially seeing SM carries what, like 50-60 bolts tops, while their backpacks would give them virtually unlimited laser ammo...

I would say the very old reasoning for this is that Marines are meant to be shock troops, so they used weaponry which had particularly violent and gory effects on their foes, but were still reasonably effective, like Volkite weapons and bolters. It was to get the enemy to surrender as much as kill them.

By the 41st millennium, this is simply tradition, and trying to cow various human worlds into joining the nascent Imperium is a distant memory, but they are stuck with the weapons.

Perhaps bolters need a rule to make moral effects more relevant then?

Plus, against something like an Ork a lasgun might blow off a limb, but the Ork will keep coming, whereas an exploding bolt will shred the entire Ork to pieces. Bolters are S4 compared to the Lasgun's S3 for a reason. If they're having to fight armoured targets they break out the Kraken rounds.

 Haighus wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I'd suggest they convert this to a d8 or d10 system, but that doesn't solve the core problems in 8th edition:

Some infantry are just way too cheap for what they do.
Some infantry are just way too expensive for what they do.

In general, bigger things are just way too lethal. Example: Castellan, Shadowsword.

The whole game should be scaled up from the bottom and down from the top.

It feels right that the big things are hugely lethal though- they should just up the points until they are appropriate for that lethality.

That's a totally fair statement. The problem with hugely lethal super heavies and lords of war is that it becomes a coin flip game. If you drop a shadowsword on the table, and I drop a shadowsword on the table, the game is going to be decided by who goes first.

My personal preference is a far less lethal version of the game.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I'd suggest they convert this to a d8 or d10 system, but that doesn't solve the core problems in 8th edition:

Some infantry are just way too cheap for what they do.
Some infantry are just way too expensive for what they do.

In general, bigger things are just way too lethal. Example: Castellan, Shadowsword.

The whole game should be scaled up from the bottom and down from the top.

It feels right that the big things are hugely lethal though- they should just up the points until they are appropriate for that lethality.

That's a totally fair statement. The problem with hugely lethal super heavies and lords of war is that it becomes a coin flip game. If you drop a shadowsword on the table, and I drop a shadowsword on the table, the game is going to be decided by who goes first.

My personal preference is a far less lethal version of the game.

I think this is why it was good when such units were confined to larger games, where there were often several big units and larger boards with big terrain, so the lethality was mitigated.

Although lots of large LOS blocking terrain helps with many things.

Hey, since were all complaining about about being underpowered and under represented with bolter discipline, how about letting my Plague Marines fire their bolters as pistols in CC?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Hey, since were all complaining about about being underpowered and under represented with bolter discipline, how about letting my Plague Marines fire their bolters as pistols in CC?

I quite like that idea

What if Inexorable Advance was just reworded to fit the new rule better? Something like "a unit with this ability increases the range it may fire twice with rapid fire weapons by six inches". So if you don't fit the new criteria a Plague Marine is still double tapping at 18", but if you do your bolters have an even longer range than normal at 30". I think that would fit the spirit of the legion trait better than changing bolters into pistols.

 Irbis wrote:


If anything, it's the Sisters who devote 100% to the bolter, flamer and melta are only handed to veterans. And it's still just 3 weapons, compared to two dozen options SM can take. I'd expect both to have similar amount of training in bolt guns, seeing SM also has to learn wacky stuff like aiming grav guns, missile launchers, or plasma cannons, vastly different weapons needing completely different skills, on top of doing thunder hammer/chain sword/power axe fighting, again, hard to learn completely different skillsets. Compared to this, Sisters have it trivial with bolter and melta aiming being largely identical, transferable, and using the same set of muscle memory triggers.

To be fair, many musicians devote themselves entirely to just playing the guitar all their lives. And yet they can be out shown by an exceptionally talented musician on guitar even if that isn't the exceptionally talented musician's primary instrument.

I read this rule as: double potshots for all objective camper/long range support units. Yey.