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 Mmmpi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:


Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...

Sisters are just as good shots as genetically engineerd post-humans that can neurally link with their weapons.

Space Marines are Mary Sues.

Pick one of the above.

I've already answered this question several times in this thread. Please reread the thread.

Answering a question isn't the same thing as the answer actually being valid. Please reread the thread.

And yet you still posted this despite a lack of validity. Good job.

I could say exactly the same thing back to you and we'd achieve absolutely nothing. Things not being like you want them to be does not merit calling stuff Mary Sues. There's a terrific amount of irony in complaining about Mary Sues when you're pushing the argument that your totally-awesome-special faction should totally get a special rule designed to help another faction that's struggling because how DARE anyone suggest that Sisters aren't the epitomy of everything ever?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:


Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...

Sisters are just as good shots as genetically engineerd post-humans that can neurally link with their weapons.

Space Marines are Mary Sues.

Pick one of the above.

I've already answered this question several times in this thread. Please reread the thread.

Answering a question isn't the same thing as the answer actually being valid. Please reread the thread.

And yet you still posted this despite a lack of validity. Good job.

I could say exactly the same thing back to you and we'd achieve absolutely nothing. Things not being like you want them to be does not merit calling stuff Mary Sues. There's a terrific amount of irony in complaining about Mary Sues when you're pushing the argument that your totally-awesome-special faction should totally get a special rule designed to help another faction that's struggling because how DARE anyone suggest that Sisters aren't the epitomy of everything ever?

Re write your rant with the word Marine instead of Sisters - be more accurate....

 Mmmpi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:


Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...

Sisters are just as good shots as genetically engineerd post-humans that can neurally link with their weapons.

Space Marines are Mary Sues.

Pick one of the above.

I've already answered this question several times in this thread. Please reread the thread.

Answering a question isn't the same thing as the answer actually being valid. Please reread the thread.

And yet you still posted this despite a lack of validity. Good job.

In your interpretation of the fluff.

The entire fluff argument boils down to whether a sacred devotion to training with the bolter above all else by fanatics is enough to make them as effective with it as soldiers with the ability to directly neurally link with their bolters, with faster processing and reflexes, and the need for only 4 hours sleep per day, but a wider repetoire of combat training. Aside from the black carapace, equipment is broadly equivalent. There are some other minor fluff aspects, but these are the main ones.

You feel the advantages of the Marine do not outweigh the fanatical training of the Sister of Battle, others feel the inherent advantages of the black carapace would allow them to use their bolters in a more instinctive, superior way than a "simple" HUD.

There are valid arguments either way, that are simply going in circles now. The only way this would be resolved is by GW choosing a side. It could be argued that this rule is a soft endorsement of Marines having somewhat better shooting than Sisters with bolters, but it is primarily aimed as a balance mechanism, so that is probably reading too much into it.

That is all there is to the whole argument overall.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:


Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...

Sisters are just as good shots as genetically engineerd post-humans that can neurally link with their weapons.

Space Marines are Mary Sues.

Pick one of the above.

I've already answered this question several times in this thread. Please reread the thread.

Answering a question isn't the same thing as the answer actually being valid. Please reread the thread.

And yet you still posted this despite a lack of validity. Good job.

I could say exactly the same thing back to you and we'd achieve absolutely nothing. Things not being like you want them to be does not merit calling stuff Mary Sues. There's a terrific amount of irony in complaining about Mary Sues when you're pushing the argument that your totally-awesome-special faction should totally get a special rule designed to help another faction that's struggling because how DARE anyone suggest that Sisters aren't the epitomy of everything ever?

Re write your rant with the word Marine instead of Sisters - be more accurate....

Except I'm not calling Sisters Mary Sues now, am I?

When the Marines last time had this sort of rule was in the second edition, the same time SoB got their first codex and were truly defined as a faction. IIRC, the Sisters didn't get this rapid fire rule then either.

 Crimson wrote:
IIRC, the Sisters didn't get this rapid fire rule then either.

They didn't.

At the end of the day though the ting that should really matter when it comes to rules changes is the result. If a unit needs a buff it should get one, if it doesn't need the buff but is getting one due to sweeping changes it should cost more, and if a unit needs a buff but isn't getting one then it should probably cost less.

'Balancing to fluff' is what led to the daemons of chaos book.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:


Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...

Sisters are just as good shots as genetically engineerd post-humans that can neurally link with their weapons.

Space Marines are Mary Sues.

Pick one of the above.

I've already answered this question several times in this thread. Please reread the thread.

Answering a question isn't the same thing as the answer actually being valid. Please reread the thread.

And yet you still posted this despite a lack of validity. Good job.

I could say exactly the same thing back to you and we'd achieve absolutely nothing. Things not being like you want them to be does not merit calling stuff Mary Sues. There's a terrific amount of irony in complaining about Mary Sues when you're pushing the argument that your totally-awesome-special faction should totally get a special rule designed to help another faction that's struggling because how DARE anyone suggest that Sisters aren't the epitomy of everything ever?

Of course. Considering you've done that, congratulations on the wasted time?
Nope, players treating them as Mary Sues is why.
Keep in mind by the way, that I've also said Custodies should have access to this rule as well before you keep going. So, when I mention that there are non-marines that could justifably be given this rule, it's because as the fluff currently stands, it's because it does. I've already suggested one marine rule that wouldn't work with sisters. If the marines got a toughness boost, I'd not say a word. Same with more attacks.

But hey, one ability that does cross over to three more armies is a "me me me". That was sarcasm btw.

 Mmmpi wrote:
So, when I mention that there are non-marines that could justifably be given this rule, it's because as the fluff currently stands, it's because it does.

So why then when the Sisters were first time properly introduced they weren't given this rule even though Marines had it at the time? The fluff has not changed.

 Haighus wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:


Besides, with others using said rule, what else would his Marine Sues have to be special...

Sisters are just as good shots as genetically engineerd post-humans that can neurally link with their weapons.

Space Marines are Mary Sues.

Pick one of the above.

I've already answered this question several times in this thread. Please reread the thread.

Answering a question isn't the same thing as the answer actually being valid. Please reread the thread.

And yet you still posted this despite a lack of validity. Good job.

May I ask where in the fluff does it say that SoB have the same level of training and both tech and physical atributes as marines?

You feel the advantages of the Marine do not outweigh the fanatical training of the Sister of Battle, others feel the inherent advantages of the black carapace would allow them to use their bolters in a more instinctive, superior way than a "simple" HUD.

But that is just not true. If fanatism was equal to training and superior tech, all the times in human history when fanatiscs were rolled over by trained armies just wouldn't happen. In fact if we go over the history of wars better training, better recruits and better weapons make it possible for armies to beat fanatical armies many times their size.

You didn't. The person I was responding to was acting like marines are. Hence the tag.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
May I ask where in the fluff does it say that SoB have the same level of training and both tech and physical atributes as marines?

Last "Sisters" codex. Witchhunters 3rd ed.

Says their basic bolters were of higher quality, their armor of the same proteciveness, though with less protections against extreme hostile environments, and far less strength boosting, but with the same helmet tech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

But that is just not true. If fanatism was equal to training and superior tech, all the times in human history when fanatiscs were rolled over by trained armies just wouldn't happen. In fact if we go over the history of wars better training, better recruits and better weapons make it possible for armies to beat fanatical armies many times their size.

I didn't say fanaticism. I said devotion.

The fluff has been clear that the sister's issues with faith over tactics doesn't carry over to weapon skills.

I'm not claiming that a squad of sisters will out-tactics a squad of marines. I'm saying they shoot bolters just as well.

Says their basic bolters were of higher quality, their armor of the same proteciveness, though with less protections against extreme hostile environments, and far less strength boosting, but with the same helmet tech.

thank you very much. But this is just gear. A SM tactical would still have anywhere between 50 to 200years more training then a SoB. Plus it sounds a lot like SoB gear is kind of a like some of german stuff durning WWII, works perfect, but only in perfect conditions. Which more or less means that SoB can, sometimes, equal a marines shoting on a firing range.

I'm saying they shoot bolters just as well.

That would not be possible even against same type of trained un augmented men. Unless w40k does not follow the sexual dymorphism we have in the real world. Which may well be the case.

Karol wrote:

Says their basic bolters were of higher quality, their armor of the same proteciveness, though with less protections against extreme hostile environments, and far less strength boosting, but with the same helmet tech.

thank you very much. But this is just gear. A SM tactical would still have anywhere between 50 to 200years more training then a SoB. Plus it sounds a lot like SoB gear is kind of a like some of german stuff durning WWII, works perfect, but only in perfect conditions. Which more or less means that SoB can, sometimes, equal a marines shoting on a firing range.

I'm saying they shoot bolters just as well.

That would not be possible even against same type of trained un augmented men. Unless w40k does not follow the sexual dymorphism we have in the real world. Which may well be the case.

Nope Sister's gear, like all imperial prduced gear is super rugged and reliable.

As for training, a marine might have 50 years of experience, they typically grow up in a non-tech culture, so their formative years as marines require extensive retraining in fighting techniques (to take full advantage of higher tech weapons), while sisters are almost exclusively recruited from the Scholera, and start their training as pre-teens/early teens. The smaller amount of equipment sisters use, and the fact that they specilize, unlike most marine chapters, and factored with the shear breadth of training a marine undergoes, means that at a few skills, the sister is just as good. The difference is that a marine can operate on that level at dozens of skills and with a multitude of weapons. A sister meanwhile is that good with a bolter/stormbolter, a flamer, a melta, or one of the heavy versions of them. A marine can pick up a lascannon and use it with a high level of proficiency. A sister can't drop her bolter for a multi-melta the same way.

As for your 2nd quote: that's bullpecaque. Women can shoot just as well as men with the proper training, even in combat situations. A woman with training and a gun is just as dangerous as a man is. I dare you to say this to a woman in a line unit.

Regardless, I think it might be time for this thread to die.

 Crimson wrote:
The fluff has not changed.

There was no fluff. The 2nd edition rapid fire rule described its function without any embellishment and existed solely to make the marines more powerful.

A Marine Rhino shoots more than a Sisters Rhino. For me that puts it more on the realm of better 'equipment' than training. Better sights or augmented superhuman eyes. For whatever reason, the marine vehicle can more effectively put more shots down range.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

A.T. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The fluff has not changed.

There was no fluff. The 2nd edition rapid fire rule described its function without any embellishment and existed solely to make the marines more powerful.

I'll post it again:


The fluff in 2nd is superior training.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Karol wrote:

Says their basic bolters were of higher quality, their armor of the same proteciveness, though with less protections against extreme hostile environments, and far less strength boosting, but with the same helmet tech.

thank you very much. But this is just gear. A SM tactical would still have anywhere between 50 to 200years more training then a SoB. Plus it sounds a lot like SoB gear is kind of a like some of german stuff durning WWII, works perfect, but only in perfect conditions. Which more or less means that SoB can, sometimes, equal a marines shoting on a firing range.

I'm saying they shoot bolters just as well.

That would not be possible even against same type of trained un augmented men. Unless w40k does not follow the sexual dymorphism we have in the real world. Which may well be the case.

Nope Sister's gear, like all imperial prduced gear is super rugged and reliable.

As for training, a marine might have 50 years of experience, they typically grow up in a non-tech culture, so their formative years as marines require extensive retraining in fighting techniques (to take full advantage of higher tech weapons), while sisters are almost exclusively recruited from the Scholera, and start their training as pre-teens/early teens. The smaller amount of equipment sisters use, and the fact that they specilize, unlike most marine chapters, and factored with the shear breadth of training a marine undergoes, means that at a few skills, the sister is just as good. The difference is that a marine can operate on that level at dozens of skills and with a multitude of weapons. A sister meanwhile is that good with a bolter/stormbolter, a flamer, a melta, or one of the heavy versions of them. A marine can pick up a lascannon and use it with a high level of proficiency. A sister can't drop her bolter for a multi-melta the same way.

As for your 2nd quote: that's bullpecaque. Women can shoot just as well as men with the proper training, even in combat situations. A woman with training and a gun is just as dangerous as a man is. I dare you to say this to a woman in a line unit.

I wish that was true, but sadly woman for whatever reason are not as good shots as men generally speaking, but our training is nothing like the training they would receive in 40k, so I am fine with the abstraction being there.

It's the same abstraction that means marines don't get the full suit of sensors and equipment they have in the more, otherwise every marine would be bs2+, ignore night fight rules, have 3 wounds each etc.

Every game needs these abstractions to a certain extent.

Mmmpi wrote:[
No, the fluff as written.
The entire fluff argument boils down to whether devoted training is equivalent to devoted training. Space marines interface with their armor neurologically, not their bolters. Faster reflexes don't aid long range shots, practice and targeting discipline does. Which is practice. And a wider repetoire of combat training means less focus on an individual weapon.

I feel the advantages of a marine don't outweigh a sister at this specific skill. It could also be argued that they just didn't think about it considering they forgot to include The Fallen in with the rule, GW doesn't have a habit of always thinking things through.

They interface with their armour neurologically, and the armour is interfaced with the bolter- this has been in the fluff since at least 3rd edition. ALL Marine and Sisters bolters have built in autosenses linked directly to the armour. The difference is that Marines are also linked in directly to the bolter- they should be able to feel the bolter like a body part, rather than use it as a tool. I have no doubt that such autosense-linked bolters have proprioceptive sensors as part of the sensor suite, so that the armour is able to mitigate recoil effectively. This would give a Marine a tangible benefit as they could tell where their bolter is positioned far more instinctively. Whether you think that benefit is sufficiently great or not is absolutely your interpretation.

In terms of abstraction, we are looking at the difference between getting one aimed shot/burst off at a target dashing to cover at long range, or two shots/bursts off. None of this is sniper-type marksmanship, but the sort of mid-ranged snapshooting common in military applications. Reflexes absolutely do aid with that- targets are not usually exposed for long before reaching cover. It is part of the reason so much development work has gone into rifles like the HK G11 and Russian AN-94, which have the intention of firing more shots in the same aiming time to increase hit chances at medium-long range for those rifles. I think it is entirely plausible that a Marine is able to spot the target breaking cover, aim, fire, reacquire the target after recoil and fire again, in the time where even a very well-trained unaugmented human could only fire once before the target reached cover again (if they survived).

Good bionics would likely close the gap somewhat in this regard, like they can for anything in 40k.

Karol wrote:May I ask where in the fluff does it say that SoB have the same level of training and both tech and physical atributes as marines?

You feel the advantages of the Marine do not outweigh the fanatical training of the Sister of Battle, others feel the inherent advantages of the black carapace would allow them to use their bolters in a more instinctive, superior way than a "simple" HUD.

But that is just not true. If fanatism was equal to training and superior tech, all the times in human history when fanatiscs were rolled over by trained armies just wouldn't happen. In fact if we go over the history of wars better training, better recruits and better weapons make it possible for armies to beat fanatical armies many times their size.

I specifically said fanatical training for a reason, not fanatical lunacy on the battlefield- they see rigorous training as a fanatical duty, which is actually a good thing. Well trained, equipped, and otherwise sensible fanatical troops are incredibly dangerous adversaries, because they possess the important quality of high motivation. It depends on how they view their fanaticism, and the resources available to them.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'll post it again

Not seen that one before, only checked the 2nd ed Ultramarines and codex imperialis.

 Insectum7 wrote:
A Marine Rhino shoots more than a Sisters Rhino. For me that puts it more on the realm of better 'equipment' than training. Better sights or augmented superhuman eyes. For whatever reason, the marine vehicle can more effectively put more shots down range.

Which is odd given that the sisters rhino is a move advanced model which, among other things, moved the stormbolter from its pintle mount to a powered turret.

Or rather it would be odd if any of this was to do with fluff, as opposed to being a sweeping rule to make marines more powerful. Both now and in 2nd edition.

^the Rapid Fired rule is in the main rulebook for 2nd ed. Rules/fluff was all over thd place, I think the most information about auto-senses is under the photon flash grenade section in the wargear book.

Is the Sisters Rhino actually more advanced? The Storm Bolter can be turret od pintle mounted (all mine are turret), and my thinking is that there's just minor variations depending on the Forge World or even order request.

I also think that primarily it's a design decision and less about fluff, although the two are somewhat related. There's a soft erosion in subsequent editions for marines that is more apparent now that we're back to a save mod system. But more importantly, I think GW has enough room here for "bolter discipline" design-wise, fluff or not.

I mean, IG can fire twice as fast with a guy yelling at them, and marines are more accurate with a captain near them. It doesn't matter too much what the justification is, or how realistic. It matters a bit, sure, but not to the extent implied by the discussion.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Is the Sisters Rhino actually more advanced?

Off topic but yet, it's in one of the old forgeworld books that I don't have to hand right now. Admech designed it around the crusade/heresy for better visibility, powered front turret, more spacious interior, etc. Marines rejected it IIRC due to the higher profile. Would have to dig the book out.

Karol wrote:
May I ask where in the fluff does it say that SoB have the same level of training and both tech and physical atributes as marines?

You're aware that proto-sisters of battle (back when they were mostly harem/bodyguard unit) kicked the arse of multiple space marine chapters trying to get into Imperial Palace (including the eternal jobbers, Fists, who were already inside) sending them packing to the point even Custodes decided to try parley instead of fighting, yes?

Since then, Sisters gained thousands of years of institutional experience, are selected from top Schola material, instead of being random women from some backwater planet, are trained to the regimen even Stormtroopers find excessive, got much better gear than they had back then, and gained veterans of their own to pass experience and train new generation using best practices.

Gee, that sure sounds they are inferior to their ancient predecessors and have no business comparing themselves to the faction they utterly stomped before, eh?

See also one of their first art pieces ever, guess who was sent to purge a rogue chapter and apparently did that with minimal casualties?

A.T. wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Is the Sisters Rhino actually more advanced?

Off topic but yet, it's in one of the old forgeworld books that I don't have to hand right now. Admech designed it around the crusade/heresy for better visibility, powered front turret, more spacious interior, etc. Marines rejected it IIRC due to the higher profile. Would have to dig the book out.

I've just looked through every FW book with a reference to SoB I can think of, and only found this passage of relevance in IA2 Second edition:

Imperial Armour 2 Second Edition, pg233 wrote:On the whole, the differences between the MkIIc used so extensively by the Space Marines and the MkIIIa used by Sisters of Battle are largely cosmetic. It is generally held that the larger number of vision blocks make the vehicle a superior transport when used in dense terrain, allowing passengers to locate enemies within 360 degrees and to engage them without delay upon disembarkation. The Sisters of Battle are fiercely proud of the MkIIIa and its distinctive profile, despite criticisms that it makes the vehicle an easier target for enemy anti-tank gunners.

Nothing mentioned about technological differences, more that the specific structural layouts and vision blocks provides advantages in situational awareness at the cost of increased profile.

are selected from top Schola material,

But isn’t everyone from the Schola Progenium top material, since they, ya know, the drill abbots kill everybody else?

The Militarum Tempestus codex (even if a burning pile of crap (which I personally enjoy), it is probably the authorative work on what happens in a Schola Progenium) says that female Progena with fine military skills and strong faith go into the Sororitas ranks.

However, it says immediately after that the most talented warriors go to the Militarum Tempestus and Officio Prefectus.

Therefore, by martial talent alone, the Storm Bolters on Taurox Primes should benefit from Bolter Discipline before Sisters do.

 Irbis wrote:

Karol wrote:
May I ask where in the fluff does it say that SoB have the same level of training and both tech and physical atributes as marines?

You're aware that proto-sisters of battle (back when they were mostly harem/bodyguard unit) kicked the arse of multiple space marine chapters trying to get into Imperial Palace (including the eternal jobbers, Fists, who were already inside) sending them packing to the point even Custodes decided to try parley instead of fighting, yes?

Since then, Sisters gained thousands of years of institutional experience, are selected from top Schola material, instead of being random women from some backwater planet, are trained to the regimen even Stormtroopers find excessive, got much better gear than they had back then, and gained veterans of their own to pass experience and train new generation using best practices.

Gee, that sure sounds they are inferior to their ancient predecessors and have no business comparing themselves to the faction they utterly stomped before, eh?

See also one of their first art pieces ever, guess who was sent to purge a rogue chapter and apparently did that with minimal casualties?

Spoiler:

Codex: Sisters of battle Second edition, pg 13 wrote:Although much of the Ecclesiarchal palace had fallen into ruin, the central complex which housed Vandire's throne room still remained an almost impregnable fortress. For months the combined forces of the Tech-Guard and Space marines tried to breach its walls, only to be constantly thwarted by the Brides of the Emperor, who numbered some 10,000 fighters by this time.

pg 14 wrote:The 4,000 fighters who had survived the onslaught of the Space Marines and Tech-Guard slowly filed into the massive room.

I mean, sure, they held out against significant forces, but they were in a massively fortified, self-contained region of the Imperial Palace, which is an enormous complex spanning a former mountain range, not a single building, so there is no relevance to the Imperial Fists being in a separate part of it. They held out for months, which is impressive, but I'm not sure if it constitutes "arse kicking" when they loose over half their numbers in what was described as an "onslaught". Of course, without knowledge of the numbers of Tech-Guard and Space Marines, or their losses, we don't really have sufficient information to declare it as anything more than a successful defense for months.

Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.

There is a whole thread about the relative sizes of humans vs space marines.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/457187.page

 Brother Castor wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Good luck with you game. I hope it works well for you!

Thanks, we shall see. It'll be an 800 point game and I have 12 bolters and 4 storm bolters (3 of which are on vehicles and a Terminator).

So I played 2 games today - one against Tyranids and one against Necrons. Against the Tyranids the new rule was really good. Against the Necrons it made less difference as the shooting was mostly beyond bolter range or across LOS blocking terrain. Both games ended in a draw, although I had more points left on the table against the Tyranids. In all it felt like a nice buff that improved the balance.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.

And Custodes?

 Mr Morden wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines have superior training, additionally, marines are generally older, so have also had decades to centuries of training with said Bolter plus additional advantages they have such as the neural link etc. As far as I am aware, sisters of battle are not genetically tweaked to be potentially immortal. Thus, marines also have experience on their side with the weapon, and thus deserve the rule over sisters.

And Custodes?

Custodes don’t bother, being warrior-scholars. In the same fashion that they don’t bother to get Special Issue Ammo.