Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Stux wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I want to see his point cost before I really comment on him, but he's a trend that I really wish the game would move away from, hyper lethal options. Depending on how the new GSC chart works, he can basically pop up and one shot most characters or a small squad. The game needs less of that not more.

He's very rarely going to be killing squads. On average he kills 3 MEQ. The fact those 3 can be Primaris is pretty strong though.

The point cost will determine everything still.

3 MEQs is more than a lot of troop squads can kill in a turn.

Are we sure that he actually has 3 pistols, and that the Pistol 2 profile isn't meant to represent all 3?

Yes. The preview reads:

“equipped with no fewer than three liberator autostubs”

<shows profile for one>

So yes, he has that gun x3

Power creep. That is all.

I'd say getting a codex late would help you, but look at Space Wolves. They got one of the last codexes of 2018 and it is absolute bottom tier, and to make matters worse, they were too close to the CA cutoff and didn't get any much needed balance improvements (for example, a Frost Axe is 10 points versus a PFist which is 9).

I predict this guy will be OP and outrageous unless he costs an absolute ton of points. Stupid pistols doing 2 damage (wtf?) aside he has 6 shots that explode into more shots that hit on 2s for around 8-9 ish hits at s4 -1 2 damage. With +3 to the table (assuming it stays the same) he can shoot TWICE on a 2+. He will MURDER most characters he shoots and just annihilate the enemy command structure. Take 3 of him and just screw over enemy characters or just do tons of damage with volume of fire with his rediculous 2 damage guns.


Ok now the rant part on the guns. Why are his pistols more deadly than master crafted marine boltguns? Why are his generic ass STUBBER pistols as deadly as marine RELIC bolters!?

 Marmatag wrote:
Power creep. That is all.

I'd say getting a codex late would help you, but look at Space Wolves. They got one of the last codexes of 2018 and it is absolute bottom tier, and to make matters worse, they were too close to the CA cutoff and didn't get any much needed balance improvements (for example, a Frost Axe is 10 points versus a PFist which is 9).

Yeah, bottom tier power creep is the worst

 Marmatag wrote:
Power creep. That is all.

I'd say getting a codex late would help you, but look at Space Wolves. They got one of the last codexes of 2018 and it is absolute bottom tier, and to make matters worse, they were too close to the CA cutoff and didn't get any much needed balance improvements (for example, a Frost Axe is 10 points versus a PFist which is 9).

There's certainly been a fair amount of power creep this edition. If you're playing an army that doesn't get as many updates you'll end up quickly outgunned by other factions. Space Wolves though seem to be more attributed to Games Workshop's inconsistent balancing that's been plaguing 8th edition for months.

Assuming the table stays the same, he shoots twice on a 2. Not a 2+, just a 2.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming the table stays the same, he shoots twice on a 2. Not a 2+, just a 2.

What? He gets an extra shot for every hit, it doesn't mention needing a specific number in the rule.

 Stux wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming the table stays the same, he shoots twice on a 2. Not a 2+, just a 2.

What? He gets an extra shot for every hit, it doesn't mention needing a specific number in the rule.

The GSC table gives you the ability to shoot or move 1d6" on a roll of a 5.

That's what I'm referring to.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming the table stays the same, he shoots twice on a 2. Not a 2+, just a 2.

What? He gets an extra shot for every hit, it doesn't mention needing a specific number in the rule.

The GSC table gives you the ability to shoot or move 1d6" on a roll of a 5.

That's what I'm referring to.

Oh right. I thought you were refering to his extra shots on a hit, which is normally a 2+.

Actually, doesn't that mean that a natural 4+ does nothing? Because the table has no result for a 7/8/9 and no rule telling you to treat it as something else?

 Stux wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming the table stays the same, he shoots twice on a 2. Not a 2+, just a 2.

What? He gets an extra shot for every hit, it doesn't mention needing a specific number in the rule.

The GSC table gives you the ability to shoot or move 1d6" on a roll of a 5.

That's what I'm referring to.

Oh right. I thought you were refering to his extra shots on a hit, which is normally a 2+.

Actually, doesn't that mean that a natural 4+ does nothing? Because the table has no result for a 7/8/9 and no rule telling you to treat it as something else?

I would hope GW will have a 6+ or 7+ result for the Codex.

Pretty sure it will be a unique character.

I've always wanted a hybrid gunslinger; I actually made a squad of hybrids called the Cowboys from Hell (Pantera fans?). They were based on the cheap hybrids that came with the Genestealer expansion set for the original Space Hulk, so they were kinda hokey- I don't even think I still have the models.

This thing is pretty cool. Sometimes it feels like GW is reading my mind. I do hope they cost it appropriately though; I'm starting a Cult, and I don't want to be the guy who plays the model that breaks the game, even if it is a model I've wanted since 1989.

I think they made this guy such a mobile firing platform so that his hybrid screen troops don't need to be shooty. He can soften the target before the hybrids charge; alternately, the hybrids tarpit would be hand to hand troop at a distance and he walks in and wastes them in the following turn.

PenitentJake wrote:
Pretty sure it will be a unique character.

Elite choice called a "Kelemorph". Nothing suggesting he'll be unique.

He might be "1 per Detachment" or something like that, but that is as far as I could see them going.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming the table stays the same, he shoots twice on a 2. Not a 2+, just a 2.

What? He gets an extra shot for every hit, it doesn't mention needing a specific number in the rule.

The GSC table gives you the ability to shoot or move 1d6" on a roll of a 5.

That's what I'm referring to.

Oh right. I thought you were refering to his extra shots on a hit, which is normally a 2+.

Actually, doesn't that mean that a natural 4+ does nothing? Because the table has no result for a 7/8/9 and no rule telling you to treat it as something else?

I would hope GW will have a 6+ or 7+ result for the Codex.

We'll see! If not, it'll be FAQ'd rapidly I would think.

It always bothered me that random cultists with scavenged gear and converted mining hardware had better gear/stats then the best the IoM could produce.

 Nevelon wrote:
It always bothered me that random cultists with scavenged gear and converted mining hardware had better gear/stats then the best the IoM could produce.

Maybe the IoM cares more about the gathering of resources than it cares for human soldiers. Plausible.

Or, mining equipment is privately owned and quietly improved upon, tech-wise, while the equipment of the imperial army is burdened by layers of incompetent bureaucracy. Also plausible.

Or, the STCs just happened to spit out some super blueprints for mining equipment, and less fancy weapons. Take your pick.

It's funny that it can buff nearby GSC units while one shoting any character with T4 or less and a 4++ or worse.
It really felt incomplete without it

(lacking the point cost but I can't see it being priced adequately)

 Marmatag wrote:
Power creep. That is all.

I'd say getting a codex late would help you, but look at Space Wolves. They got one of the last codexes of 2018 and it is absolute bottom tier, and to make matters worse, they were too close to the CA cutoff and didn't get any much needed balance improvements (for example, a Frost Axe is 10 points versus a PFist which is 9).

Not really seeing it.

Especially not if this guy is properly costed. Does he offer a new dynamic to worry about? Sure. Will it have drawbacks? Considering they pulled the book and their ability to ambush turn 1 I'd count on it.

Do I think he is strong and will be spammed? Absolutely.

Are knights power creep without IG?
Are DE power creep without doom?
Necrons certainly werent. Or SW.
I think Orks are great, but certainly not creep.
Custodes are all but a distant memory.

That factions get special places they shine isn't really power creep.

Tyel wrote:
Powercreep does depend on his points.

At 50 points he's borderline broken.
If he's say 100 points hes okay.
If hes say 150 he's rubbish.

Its another "D2 for the lols" but GW seem desperate to make Primaris (and friends) non-viable for reasons that continue to elude me.

100 points for a that fething damage output is OKAY?

He better be 150 at least.

 Quickjager wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Powercreep does depend on his points.

At 50 points he's borderline broken.
If he's say 100 points hes okay.
If hes say 150 he's rubbish.

Its another "D2 for the lols" but GW seem desperate to make Primaris (and friends) non-viable for reasons that continue to elude me.

100 points for a that fething damage output is OKAY?

He better be 150 at least.

150 points for a W4 T3 5+ character?

I'm sorry, but I'd rather not have 150 points go "Poof" the moment any sniper looks funny at them.

For reference, a squad of 5 Sniper Scouts put out 1.48 regular wounds after saves and .56 mortals, with no buffs.
Or, a 10 man Sniper Scout squad kills him. With no buffs-and they're 1) Marines, which means they have a million and one buffs, and 2) generally considered a bad unit, but they get 100% returns if he's 150 points.

A 150 point character with the ability to kill a character more reliably than any of the ACTUAL assassins we already have? And buff?

Dude, Sniper Scouts don't get to take potshots at characters.

 Quickjager wrote:
A 150 point character with the ability to kill a character more reliably than any of the ACTUAL assassins we already have? And buff?

Dude, Sniper Scouts don't get to take potshots at characters.

Notice how Imperial Assassins are T4, W5 (W6 on the Eversor), and have a 4+ invuln.

I'm not saying the Kelermorph should be cheaper than them-he's got more killing power, but a lot less ability to survive, which is arguably an even tradeoff-but he should not be 150 points.

You want to know what else gets 100% returns if someone plays like a idiot? Pretty much any unit.

 Quickjager wrote:
You want to know what else gets 100% returns if someone plays like a idiot? Pretty much any unit.

Pray tell how you avoid Sniper Scouts once you deepstrike in.

They have a 36" range and are most likely centrally located.

Pray tell how many lists have SNIPER scouts or have LoS in a perfect 180* arc.

 Quickjager wrote:
Pray tell how many lists have SNIPER scouts or have LoS in a perfect 180* arc.

Exactly. That's because Sniper Scouts SUCK. But they can get 100% returns on him if he's 150 points.

Or, hell, let me put it this way. You drop him in, shoot some characters, and then get eaten in melee. It takes only 13.5 WS3+ S4 attacks to kill him in melee.

He is both FRAGILE and SHORT-RANGED. Now, he does have Deep Strike, for a good beta strike, but after that, he dies.

And unlike, say, Captain Slammy, he ain't soloing a knight.

 Marmatag wrote:
This is an incredibly strong character.

The fact that an autostub pistol is ridiculously superior to the average boltgun tells you a lot about power creep in an edition.

They have to sell the model. With this ulterior motive fluff is of no concern. He reminds me of Erron Black from Mortal Kombat and would also fit well as a Bounty Hunter in N17.

So what if they can get 100% returns? You are literally dipping into a niche so narrow it isn't worth the return the other 95% of the time.

And yea that is exactly what he should do, drop him in, kill a character, die. Do you think he should stick around? No, of course you don't. But you shouldn't be incentivised to load 3 of these guys into the elite detachment.

LIke what do you think the Manipulas should be at.

 Quickjager wrote:
So what if they can get 100% returns? You are literally dipping into a niche so narrow it isn't worth the return the other 95% of the time.

And yea that is exactly what he should do, drop him in, kill a character, die. Do you think he should stick around? No, of course you don't. But you shouldn't be incentivised to load 3 of these guys into the elite detachment.

LIke what do you think the Manipulas should be at.

The who what now?

And I'd rather not spend nearly 10% of my list on a one-shot missile that WON'T get 100% returns. Because he's probably killing support characters, who aren't usually over 100 points. He certainly ain't doing more than denting Custodes or Daemon Princes or anything that's really scary.

 JNAProductions wrote:


150 points for a W4 T3 5+ character?

I'm sorry, but I'd rather not have 150 points go "Poof" the moment any sniper looks funny at them.

Would like to point at that genestealer characters can get look out sirs on a 2+. Which is why he becomes incredibly durable as soon as some chaff gets near him (which he'll be bringing anyways). This is dependent on him being a character though.

Also, rules question but I thought that if you fired a weapon with grenade or pistol you could only fire one weapon. Wouldn't this guy be limited to firing one pistol (and then on a hit fire a second). I could understand a counterpoint being why give him 3 pistols, but GW has screwed over so many rules this edition.