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Vilehydra wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


150 points for a W4 T3 5+ character?

I'm sorry, but I'd rather not have 150 points go "Poof" the moment any sniper looks funny at them.

Would like to point at that genestealer characters can get look out sirs on a 2+. Which is why he becomes incredibly durable as soon as some chaff gets near him (which he'll be bringing anyways). This is dependent on him being a character though.

Also, rules question but I thought that if you fired a weapon with grenade or pistol you could only fire one weapon. Wouldn't this guy be limited to firing one pistol (and then on a hit fire a second). I could understand a counterpoint being why give him 3 pistols, but GW has screwed over so many rules this edition.

It's a 4+, I thought. And yeah, but that also jacks up his cost.

And the rules are, for shooting:

-Fire all weapons EXCEPT Pistols and Grenades
-Fire all Pistols
-Fire one Grenade

The Admech character that was on the same page as this guy.

Also you're missing a couple things about this guy, He is presumably a character, because of how the cult ambush bonus is described; which means he will be taking a full squad of whatever he wants with him, that will also serve as meatshields with unquestioning loyalty. He does get a 5++ which is meh but since he can allocate away from himself it is better than just a flat 4++.

He isn't squishy as it looks.

I'm confused about what you're trying to say-I've said nothing about the Tech Priest.

I just find 150 points a ridiculous price for the Kelermorph.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


150 points for a W4 T3 5+ character?

I'm sorry, but I'd rather not have 150 points go "Poof" the moment any sniper looks funny at them.

Would like to point at that genestealer characters can get look out sirs on a 2+. Which is why he becomes incredibly durable as soon as some chaff gets near him (which he'll be bringing anyways). This is dependent on him being a character though.

Also, rules question but I thought that if you fired a weapon with grenade or pistol you could only fire one weapon. Wouldn't this guy be limited to firing one pistol (and then on a hit fire a second). I could understand a counterpoint being why give him 3 pistols, but GW has screwed over so many rules this edition.

It's a 4+, I thought. And yeah, but that also jacks up his cost.


And the rules are, for shooting:

-Fire all weapons EXCEPT Pistols and Grenades
-Fire all Pistols
-Fire one Grenade

Thanks for the clarification.

I don't think that the char rule is what will end up jacking his price up. The +3 to ambush will be (I'm assuming that 6+ counts as 6 on the GSC ambush) It basically gives the GSC another reliable vector for genestealers to come in. If they aren't limited per detachment or army, I could easily see 3+ genestealer squads reliably coming in with 1" charges. That is absolutely terrifying, and would shut down almost every army that can't provide a full screen. Would make flamers useful again though.

Also if its a 4+ LoS instead of 2+ I got jipped by an opponent :(

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Power creep. That is all.

I'd say getting a codex late would help you, but look at Space Wolves. They got one of the last codexes of 2018 and it is absolute bottom tier, and to make matters worse, they were too close to the CA cutoff and didn't get any much needed balance improvements (for example, a Frost Axe is 10 points versus a PFist which is 9).

Not really seeing it.

Especially not if this guy is properly costed. Does he offer a new dynamic to worry about? Sure. Will it have drawbacks? Considering they pulled the book and their ability to ambush turn 1 I'd count on it.

Do I think he is strong and will be spammed? Absolutely.

Are knights power creep without IG?
Are DE power creep without doom?
Necrons certainly werent. Or SW.
I think Orks are great, but certainly not creep.
Custodes are all but a distant memory.

That factions get special places they shine isn't really power creep.

YES, Knights are power creep without Guard supporting them and, YES, Dark Eldar are power creep without even allied Eldar.

Did you really need to ask those questions?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

YES, Knights are power creep without Guard supporting them and, YES, Dark Eldar are power creep without even allied Eldar.

Did you really need to ask those questions?

And yet barely any mono-lists from these armies can be found.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'm confused about what you're trying to say-I've said nothing about the Tech Priest.

I just find 150 points a ridiculous price for the Kelermorph.

Let's break it down.

A sniper rifle is 4 points. It takes 9 of them to score a MW on average.

//v MEQ
9 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 1 + 1 MW

Ignoring the bodies it cost us 36 points for the weapons to accomplish this.

6 * 1.833 * .833 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 4.6

The kelermorph does 230% more damage. It would then be not unreasonable to expect the total cost of those weapons to be 230% of the sniper rifles - or 83 points.

The actual base cost of the model would be commensurate with other models with those stats. Since he's basically the same as a company commander he would be at least 30 points. Now consider that he can easily provide an aura buff and reliably arrives where you want him to be all of the time - that has value.

This model will be no less than 113 points, but likely should be more as he will have access to their look out sir. Being able to knock out multiple company commanders or even a crucial marine HQ is absolutely WAY more damaging than just the points of the model that was killed.

If he is not max of 1 then you'll see 3 every game and HQ based armies will suffer greatly.

He's either ~40 pts or ~140 pts, because KT is fairly analogous to 40k pts wise, and the rest of the KT sold with him is 59 pts and being bundled as an "entire team".


buttttt being that the ad mech portion costs 75 pts... I'm guessing that the new Ad Mech guy, with 4 wounds, terminator armour, a lance weapon, an invul, and regen d3, he's almost certainly not a 25 pt model

meaning he's almost definitely about 125 pts, and the Kelermorph is about 140 pts, which seems about where GW would price these.

So probably nothing to get worked up over guys. If these prices are right, Kelermorph may see play as tech, but definitely not as an autoinclude. He's not going to change the game.

I'd totally be ok with him at 140. I still think he's going to be a real pain and people who are caught unaware will suffer very brutal games.

Slipspace wrote:
I may have imagined it, but I thought GW made some comments about it when the Deepstrike rules changed, saying they would change the table to bring it into line with the new rules. If that's the case I wouldn't start making plans for some of these units until we know more!

They have outright stated that Cult Ambush is being overhauled. I have no idea why people ITT are theorycrafting with the old Cult Ambush rules in mind.

Anyway, to throw my hat into the ring- I don't see him being more then 100 points. GW puts a lot of value into statlines and his is garbage- it's basically the definition of a glass cannon.

And even his damage is just okay. With 12 shots he's averaging 3 wounds on a T4 2+ armor save model. What HQ are people thinking of when imagining this guy popping out of reserves and one-shotting them? I feel like 80% of the time he's going to pop out of reserves, wound an HQ and then die because he's T3 4W. And remember, LoS works both ways.

The true value of the character imo comes from how much his rules control your opponent. Just the threat of his cult ambush modifier and guns will corral them into deploying in a way that you can predict and plan against.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'd totally be ok with him at 140. I still think he's going to be a real pain and people who are caught unaware will suffer very brutal games.

Yeah. I think he's super cheap. He can kill near 200 points of Shining Spears on arrival, no risk, no skill, poof and basically cripple a key unit. His CA bonus would seem to also take out even the most minimal risk of a bad arrival there (if these rules stay similar to how they are currently worded). Or he'll force 300+ point units like this to sit out the first 3 rounds of the game, which is even more valuable.

I'd have priced him more around 200 points, to have even a semblance of risk/reward. Right now he's a no-brainer take. Aside from some weird rare match up like all-knights (no loyal 32, etc.), I struggle to even see a scenario where he couldn't make his points back.

Hell, he throws out more D2 hits than a Fire Raptor Gunship. Slightly less strength, but immune to Castellans, etc.. due to CA and character protection. And he buffs nearby units. And can target characters ...

this makes me want a primaris Moritat

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

YES, Knights are power creep without Guard supporting them and, YES, Dark Eldar are power creep without even allied Eldar.

Did you really need to ask those questions?

And yet barely any mono-lists from these armies can be found.

Actually mono dark eldar and knights are two of the most common mono armies taken competitively and mono Dark Eldar are the top performing mono faction in the game as of now. Both armies can and do beat soup lists.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'm confused about what you're trying to say-I've said nothing about the Tech Priest.

I don't think the other poster was trying to imply you'd said anything about the AdMech dude, but was merely asking your opinion of him (possibly how many points you thought he'd be?)

Quick question. Each autostub pistol is Pistol 2, right? And he can fire two pistols as per Gunslinger. Does this make him effectively Pistol 4?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

YES, Knights are power creep without Guard supporting them and, YES, Dark Eldar are power creep without even allied Eldar.

Did you really need to ask those questions?

And yet barely any mono-lists from these armies can be found.

lol

i swear ive pulled you up before for spouting unchecked "facts" like this before

Banville wrote:
Quick question. Each autostub pistol is Pistol 2, right? And he can fire two pistols as per Gunslinger. Does this make him effectively Pistol 4?

He is effectively Pistol 6 because he has 3 of them and can use them all.

Gunslinger merely states that each hit with his pistols autoamtically generates an additional hit, so he can land a maximum of 12 hits per shooting phase.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

YES, Knights are power creep without Guard supporting them and, YES, Dark Eldar are power creep without even allied Eldar.

Did you really need to ask those questions?

I agree about Knights, less so about DE without Eldar support.

They have a handful of strong units/builds but the HQs are garbage-tier and the rest of the codex is mediocre at best.

I mean, how many DE tournament lists do you see using Drazhar, Incubi, Wyches, Hellions, Beastmasters, Khymera, Clawed Fiends, Razorwing Flocks, Lhamaeans, Sslyth, Ur-Ghuls, Medusae, Incubi, Mandrakes, Scourges, Cronos and/or Raiders? How many DE lists do you see using more HQs than are necessary to fill out their detachments?

Also, how many Kabal detachments do you see that aren't Black Heart?

How many Coven detachments do you see that aren't Prophets of Flesh?

I might be 100% wrong - but I wouldn't be surprised if cult ambush is going to be completely re-worked.

Also to kill 200 points of shining spears he needs to inflict 6 wounds.

On average you gets slightly over 9 hits. Call it 4.5 wounds. 2.25 go through. So 2.25 dead shining spears. About 75 points worth of damage. For a model that costs 100 points thats good. For a model that costs about 140-150? Its about what's necessary to be played.

And thats about as good as it gets. Shoot marines? 30 points return - awful at 140/150 points. Guardsmen? 20 points return, just laugh.

Then you have characters. Well... which ones matter? The best I can see is that you have a good shot of killing a biker farseer - but you need 3 wounds to go through, and there is a reasonable chance of failure.

You want to go kill a 30 point company commander? Knock yourself out. Anything with a T5 or more with a vaguely decent save isn't dying either.

It is power creep, because he is good versus bad choices that don't see play, representing another gatekeeper, but I don't see it altering the game much.

 vipoid wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

YES, Knights are power creep without Guard supporting them and, YES, Dark Eldar are power creep without even allied Eldar.

Did you really need to ask those questions?

I agree about Knights, less so about DE without Eldar support.

They have a handful of strong units/builds but the HQs are garbage-tier and the rest of the codex is mediocre at best.

I mean, how many DE tournament lists do you see using Drazhar, Incubi, Wyches, Hellions, Beastmasters, Khymera, Clawed Fiends, Razorwing Flocks, Lhamaeans, Sslyth, Ur-Ghuls, Medusae, Incubi, Mandrakes, Scourges, Cronos and/or Raiders? How many DE lists do you see using more HQs than are necessary to fill out their detachments?

Also, how many Kabal detachments do you see that aren't Black Heart?

How many Coven detachments do you see that aren't Prophets of Flesh?

The same is true of any faction and has absolutely no bearing on whether the faction can perform well as a mono army or not.

How many Ork tournament lists do you see using warbikers, Nobs on Bikes, Kustom Boosta Blastas, Shokkjump Dragsters, Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies, Boomdakka Snazzwagons, Megatrakk Scrapjets, Stompas, Gunwagons, Painboyz, Burna Boyz, Mek Workshops, Flash Gits? I very rarely see anything but the minimum HQs taken for any detachment excluding top performers like Tau Commanders, Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes.

How many Ork lists aren't Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz?

Dark Eldar are literally the top performing mono army. They're definitely taken and they can win.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The same is true of any faction and has absolutely no bearing on whether the faction can perform well as a mono army or not.

How many Ork tournament lists do you see using warbikers, Nobs on Bikes, Kustom Boosta Blastas, Shokkjump Dragsters, Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies, Boomdakka Snazzwagons, Megatrakk Scrapjets, Stompas, Gunwagons, Painboyz, Burna Boyz, Mek Workshops, Flash Gits? I very rarely see anything but the minimum HQs taken for any detachment excluding top performers like Tau Commanders, Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes.

How many Ork lists aren't Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz?

Dark Eldar are literally the top performing mono army. They're definitely taken and they can win.

And your entire post has no bearing on what I actually said.

I didn't say that DE couldn't be a mono army. I said that I didn't agree on them being an example of power creep.

Wait, since he only has pistols doesn't that mean he's firing at 3+ or 4+ BS when over 6" from the enemy? That actually doesn't sound terribly useful for a character.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Wait, since he only has pistols doesn't that mean he's firing at 3+ or 4+ BS when over 6" from the enemy? That actually doesn't sound terribly useful for a character.

Where'd you get that from?

 vipoid wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

The same is true of any faction and has absolutely no bearing on whether the faction can perform well as a mono army or not.

How many Ork tournament lists do you see using warbikers, Nobs on Bikes, Kustom Boosta Blastas, Shokkjump Dragsters, Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies, Boomdakka Snazzwagons, Megatrakk Scrapjets, Stompas, Gunwagons, Painboyz, Burna Boyz, Mek Workshops, Flash Gits? I very rarely see anything but the minimum HQs taken for any detachment excluding top performers like Tau Commanders, Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes.

How many Ork lists aren't Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz?

Dark Eldar are literally the top performing mono army. They're definitely taken and they can win.

And your entire post has no bearing on what I actually said.

I didn't say that DE couldn't be a mono army. I said that I didn't agree on them being an example of power creep.

Lol fair point well made! Apologies I thought you were responding to me for some reason.

I would argue that Agents of Vect in and of itself is an example of power creep but to be fair I've gone off topic so back to the Kelermorph I guess.

 Stux wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Wait, since he only has pistols doesn't that mean he's firing at 3+ or 4+ BS when over 6" from the enemy? That actually doesn't sound terribly useful for a character.

Where'd you get that from?

Oh derp, I thought this was kill team, not 40k.

Are some people seriously suggesting that he should cost more than a smash captain?

For real?

Kitane wrote:
Are some people seriously suggesting that he should cost more than a smash captain?

For real?

There are some serious knees jerking in this thread!

His guns really should have been str3. Keep everything the same, make him 70 points and have his gun str3.

Tyel wrote:
I might be 100% wrong - but I wouldn't be surprised if cult ambush is going to be completely re-worked.

Also to kill 200 points of shining spears he needs to inflict 6 wounds.

On average you gets slightly over 9 hits. Call it 4.5 wounds. 2.25 go through. So 2.25 dead shining spears. About 75 points worth of damage. For a model that costs 100 points thats good. For a model that costs about 140-150? Its about what's necessary to be played.



.

Average slightly over 9 hits per phase. You can straight up double that in Shining Spears killed (150 points taken out of your opponents army right there in average to below-average rolls) and add a few points of value for the re-roll buff. And Game-Design wise, I don’t think a model should straight up make it’s points back on average rolls on deployment, before the opponent even get’s to interact with it.

So yes, killing 75 points of Spears should be what a 140-150 point model can do. Given he can quite frequently do twice that, 200 points seems a bargain for the guy.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I might be 100% wrong - but I wouldn't be surprised if cult ambush is going to be completely re-worked.

Also to kill 200 points of shining spears he needs to inflict 6 wounds.

On average you gets slightly over 9 hits. Call it 4.5 wounds. 2.25 go through. So 2.25 dead shining spears. About 75 points worth of damage. For a model that costs 100 points thats good. For a model that costs about 140-150? Its about what's necessary to be played.



.

Average slightly over 9 hits per phase. You can straight up double that in Shining Spears killed (150 points taken out of your opponents army right there in average to below-average rolls) and add a few points of value for the re-roll buff. And Game-Design wise, I don’t think a model should straight up make it’s points back on average rolls on deployment, before the opponent even get’s to interact with it.

So yes, killing 75 points of Spears should be what a 140-150 point model can do. Given he can quite frequently do twice that, 200 points seems a bargain for the guy.

Plasma Inceptors can make their points back on deployment. I've done it, it's not even on that unlikely if your opponent doesn't screen well.

And that's the point here - even with character targeting allowed, even with the Kellermorph moving in 6" before firing (assuming the Ambush rules don't change much, which they may well do), it's really much easier to screen out a character for any army bringing chaff (read: any vaguely competitive army) than people here are realising.

My opponents regularly screen off basically their entire deployment zone. Placing a character in that that the Kellermorph can't get to, when you know he's coming, really isn't that difficult.

Doesn’t really matter. Whether you destroy an opponents 300+ points key unit like Shining Spears or DW Primaris or deny them to play the game, forcing them to hid behind a screen is more or less of identical value. A value the Kelter-guys point costs must reflect.

Sure, the hidden Castellan or Tau Gunline doesn’t care. Still got to balance its points against all armies, not just the rare few scissors to that paper.

But if he’s priced to the Plasma-Inceptor equivalent of about 18-20 D2 hits (roughly a unit of 7 or 8 without re-rolls, no?), maybe add another 10% or so for being able to target characters and giving re-rolls, there probably won’t be problem.