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 vipoid wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

By that logic, 7th Edition Eldar wasn't power creep then, because they too had "bad" units.

They might have had one or two, but almost the entirety of their codex was above the power curve, relative to the older 7th edition books.

(And this is before we get into the ridiculous Formations that came into play about half-way through 7th.)

Do you want to concede this point or do you have yet more nonsense to spew?

he is not spewing nonsense, not at all. You're completely rewriting the definition of power creep literally as you go to suit your argument. If the codex itself pushes for new HEIGHTS above the rest of the armies, that's power creep. This is how balance is ALWAYS measured, by the strongest way of playing a factor, not by the weakest, what you discuss is internal balance. And with that said, even the units you list as the weakest are mostly all on par with other dexes middle of the line stuff, ie. their bad stuff is mostly better then the bad stuff of the dexes that preceded them.

They are absolutely power creep.

 Quickjager wrote:
On my phone right now, he does have an invul read the community page. Real quick, if old table remains I stand by costing, if there is a new one it the costing is subject to change.

He does? So he does.

My bad, I missed that.

 Eldarsif wrote:

The fantasy of a gunslinger has him use normal looking guns, but do amazing things with them.

I assume that is their reasoning anyway.

Pretty much this. Seems like people would have liked it better if it had stated "Gunslinger gives their weapons a +1 to damage". Since the Gunslinger is unable to drop his weapon and another cultists is unable to pick up said weapon this is a cleaner ruling than adding extra text for days.

"Amazing" doesn't quite do it justice. These guns match the rate of fire of boltguns in rapid fire range, match them for strength too, beat them on armor penetration and do double the damage of them. They put the bolt pistol of CYPHER, the legendary mysterious time travelling gunslinger Astartes character who wields a relic bolt pistol, to shame - and the kelermorph has 3 of them.

I'm a Nids/GSC player, but unlike certain people who feel the need to downplay anything even resembling a complaint said about their army, I am inclined to agree with quickjager and others saying that it looks like the design time is having a bit too much fun with GSC. There is a standard set for tabletop weaponry and stuff like this is very anti-thematic imo. Yeah, a rule that he got +1 to wound or something instead and -1 strength in the guns or something, would have gone a long way to making it feel like he's not semi auto firing heavy bolters with double damage in each one of his three hands.

"Amazing" doesn't quite do it justice. These guns match the rate of fire of boltguns in rapid fire range, match them for strength too, beat them on armor penetration and do double the damage of them. They put the bolt pistol of CYPHER, the legendary mysterious time travelling gunslinger Astartes character who wields a relic bolt pistol, to shame - and the kelermorph has 3 of them.

I'm a Nids/GSC player, but unlike certain people who feel the need to downplay anything even resembling a complaint said about their army, I am inclined to agree with quickjager and others saying that it looks like the design time is having a bit too much fun with GSC. There is a standard set for tabletop weaponry and stuff like this is very anti-thematic imo. Yeah, a rule that he got +1 to wound or something instead and -1 strength in the guns or something, would have gone a long way to making it feel like he's not semi auto firing heavy bolters with double damage in each one of his three hands.

The pistol is literally a warpbolter, the ones only daemonprices get with -12" range but on a alpha striking model that is allowed to target charachters it seems and 3 of these things.

Not Online!!! wrote:

"Amazing" doesn't quite do it justice. These guns match the rate of fire of boltguns in rapid fire range, match them for strength too, beat them on armor penetration and do double the damage of them. They put the bolt pistol of CYPHER, the legendary mysterious time travelling gunslinger Astartes character who wields a relic bolt pistol, to shame - and the kelermorph has 3 of them.

I'm a Nids/GSC player, but unlike certain people who feel the need to downplay anything even resembling a complaint said about their army, I am inclined to agree with quickjager and others saying that it looks like the design time is having a bit too much fun with GSC. There is a standard set for tabletop weaponry and stuff like this is very anti-thematic imo. Yeah, a rule that he got +1 to wound or something instead and -1 strength in the guns or something, would have gone a long way to making it feel like he's not semi auto firing heavy bolters with double damage in each one of his three hands.

The pistol is literally a warpbolter, the ones only daemonprices get with -12" range but on a alpha striking model that is allowed to target charachters it seems and 3 of these things.

yeah exactly , which is bad enough on its own, but even more anti-thematic by the fact that they look like revolvers. And the fact that he saw firing three at once, one handed when almost a normal build human or GSC cant even fire something like a boltgun two handed.

I'm not sure if my problem is so much the stats on this guy though, or the stats of the bolter. I think it may be both actually, though bolters really should have an AP value.

 SHUPPET wrote:
"Amazing" doesn't quite do it justice. These guns match the rate of fire of boltguns in rapid fire range, match them for strength too, beat them on armor penetration and do double the damage of them. They put the bolt pistol of CYPHER, the legendary mysterious time travelling gunslinger Astartes character who wields a relic bolt pistol, to shame - and the kelermorph has 3 of them.

I'm a Nids/GSC player, but unlike certain people who feel the need to downplay anything even resembling a complaint said about their army, I am inclined to agree with quickjager and others saying that it looks like the design time is having a bit too much fun with GSC. There is a standard set for tabletop weaponry and stuff like this is very anti-thematic imo. Yeah, a rule that he got +1 to wound or something instead and -1 strength in the guns or something, would have gone a long way to making it feel like he's not semi auto firing heavy bolters with double damage in each one of his three hands.

I don't completely disagree with your point, but still feel it is easy enough to head-cannon with the idea that liberator stubguns use special ammo.

I also agree that most people defend their faction, but I have over 20,000 points of marines, to go with just a couple of thousand of unbuilt GSC, so it is not all "my army" bias. Sure, "new toy" syndrome is probably a bit of a thing here, but it is such a cool new toy.

As for Cypher's bolt pistol, it is has 4" more range than these, an extra shot and the shooter re-rolls 1s, so misses even less often. Maybe Cypher ought to take out some Deathwatch dudes and steal their ammo? Mind you, by that logic, why don't regular marines use the same ammo as Deathwatch? Cypher also carries an always-overcharges-but-never-overheats, twice-the-number-of-shots plasma pistol, so he is hardly suffering in the pistol department. Maybe his blt pistol is just better than normal, but his plasma pistol is a big enough improvement over a regular one to make up for it.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

"Amazing" doesn't quite do it justice. These guns match the rate of fire of boltguns in rapid fire range, match them for strength too, beat them on armor penetration and do double the damage of them. They put the bolt pistol of CYPHER, the legendary mysterious time travelling gunslinger Astartes character who wields a relic bolt pistol, to shame - and the kelermorph has 3 of them.

I'm a Nids/GSC player, but unlike certain people who feel the need to downplay anything even resembling a complaint said about their army, I am inclined to agree with quickjager and others saying that it looks like the design time is having a bit too much fun with GSC. There is a standard set for tabletop weaponry and stuff like this is very anti-thematic imo. Yeah, a rule that he got +1 to wound or something instead and -1 strength in the guns or something, would have gone a long way to making it feel like he's not semi auto firing heavy bolters with double damage in each one of his three hands.

The pistol is literally a warpbolter, the ones only daemonprices get with -12" range but on a alpha striking model that is allowed to target charachters it seems and 3 of these things.

yeah exactly , which is bad enough on its own, but even more anti-thematic by the fact that they look like revolvers. And the fact that he saw firing three at once, one handed when almost a normal build human or GSC cant even fire something like a boltgun two handed.

I'm not sure if my problem is so much the stats on this guy though, or the stats of the bolter. I think it may be both actually, though bolters really should have an AP value.

I mean i don't mind the profile that much, could also argue that he uses special ammo and that his gsc mutated body is stronger.

What i find questionable, on a model that can target charachters and alpha strike, that every hit roll nearly doubles his ammount of dakka.

6 shots 5 hit --> another 5 shots of which another 4 atleast hit.
That is 9 shots S 4 ap -1 D2.

9shots on a alpha striking charachter. He singlehandedly can remove 2 IG charachters in one turn......

On the other side a sniper squad with you know SNIPERRIFLES is basically like a Wet noodle slapped into a concrete wall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fifty wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
"Amazing" doesn't quite do it justice. These guns match the rate of fire of boltguns in rapid fire range, match them for strength too, beat them on armor penetration and do double the damage of them. They put the bolt pistol of CYPHER, the legendary mysterious time travelling gunslinger Astartes character who wields a relic bolt pistol, to shame - and the kelermorph has 3 of them.

I'm a Nids/GSC player, but unlike certain people who feel the need to downplay anything even resembling a complaint said about their army, I am inclined to agree with quickjager and others saying that it looks like the design time is having a bit too much fun with GSC. There is a standard set for tabletop weaponry and stuff like this is very anti-thematic imo. Yeah, a rule that he got +1 to wound or something instead and -1 strength in the guns or something, would have gone a long way to making it feel like he's not semi auto firing heavy bolters with double damage in each one of his three hands.

I don't completely disagree with your point, but still feel it is easy enough to head-cannon with the idea that liberator stubguns use special ammo.

I also agree that most people defend their faction, but I have over 20,000 points of marines, to go with just a couple of thousand of unbuilt GSC, so it is not all "my army" bias. Sure, "new toy" syndrome is probably a bit of a thing here, but it is such a cool new toy.

As for Cypher's bolt pistol, it is has 4" more range than these, an extra shot and the shooter re-rolls 1s, so misses even less often. Maybe Cypher ought to take out some Deathwatch dudes and steal their ammo? Mind you, by that logic, why don't regular marines use the same ammo as Deathwatch? Cypher also carries an always-overcharges-but-never-overheats, twice-the-number-of-shots plasma pistol, so he is hardly suffering in the pistol department. Maybe his blt pistol is just better than normal, but his plasma pistol is a big enough improvement over a regular one to make up for it.

Problem is the fact that he can target charachters and doubles his firerate all by his own.

Other factions would have to pay cp for that.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'm not sure if my problem is so much the stats on this guy though, or the stats of the bolter. I think it may be both actually, though bolters really should have an AP value.

Bolters should 100% have an AP value. Arguably, in order to match the fluff, bolters should be 2 damage, or maybe D3 damage (I consider D3 damage to be generally worse than 2 damage, by the way)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online, you make a good point there. Maybe one of those abilities should be innate and the other require at least a CP each time.

 Fifty wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'm not sure if my problem is so much the stats on this guy though, or the stats of the bolter. I think it may be both actually, though bolters really should have an AP value.

Bolters should 100% have an AP value. Arguably, in order to match the fluff, bolters should be 2 damage, or maybe D3 damage (I consider D3 damage to be generally worse than 2 damage, by the way)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online, you make a good point there. Maybe one of those abilities should be innate and the other require at least a CP each time.

That dude was planned as an assasin. Ok no problem with that, they are weak against hordes. Well should be, in comes this Freak with an average of 9 shots......

Why even bother with special weapon squads with sniperrifles, scouts with sniperrifles, marauders with sniperrifles. This dude can wipe whole squads in one round and kill charachters at the same time....

yeah exactly , which is bad enough on its own, but even more anti-thematic by the fact that they look like revolvers. And the fact that he saw firing three at once, one handed when almost a normal build human or GSC cant even fire something like a boltgun two handed.

This might just be abstracted gameplay mechanic, ie. that it is aim that is making these weapons so powerful. The larger question is whether any other unit gets their hand on these weapons. If not these are quite literally unique and named weapons. Who knows, maybe if Cypher got his hands on these pistols they would be effectively damage 3. For all we know he could be so good at aiming that he is literally aiming for weak parts, eyes, brain, or whatever.

I'd also point out:

they’re natural born gunfighters

Which may or may not indicate that these are specially bred genestealer cultists that are superhuman in their own right.

Now, semi-related to this thread I must admit I am mostly tired of people arguing that Space Marines should be the metric stick for godhood in the Warhammer universe and that if something threatens a poor space marine then that goes against the lore because Space Marines are the Alpha and the Omega for some reason. Maybe I am a filthy xenos player for the most part, but damn I am tired of everything revolving around the space marine heroes of the universe. The universe is vast and cruel and there are many things that could easily kill a good space marine, or have people forgotten the warsingers and megarachnids to name a few.

What would be funny, though, if the statline had been a misprint. Then this entire thread was for nothing.

he's not a strength morph. GSC of similar build can't handle bolters either. There's no real thematic explanation here other than "his revolvers are absurdly strong"

Not Online!!! wrote:
Problem is the fact that he can target charachters and doubles his firerate all by his own.

Other factions would have to pay cp for that.

He may have to lay points for that. Let's not whine about balance and him not costing enough before we've even seen the cost, thanks.

 SHUPPET wrote:
he's not a strength morph. GSC of similar build can't handle bolters either. There's no real thematic explanation here other than "his revolvers are absurdly strong"

Not Online!!! wrote:
Problem is the fact that he can target charachters and doubles his firerate all by his own.

Other factions would have to pay cp for that.

He may have to lay points for that. Let's not whine about balance and him not costing enough before we've even seen the cost, thanks.

I doubt it, and even if, this dude is more effective then your average csm Lord at 74 ppm or commander at 30.
Against chaff aswell as charachters.

He literally is more effective then a flamer against infantry.

Edit: granted the flamers are gak atm so ehh.
Still this dude with some pistols is better then an dedicated shock and anti infantry weapon at it's Job.

9shots on a alpha striking charachter. He singlehandedly can remove 2 IG charachters in one turn......

If the Gunslinger costs more than those 2 IG then that is a net loss for the GSC player. Also, IG have enough bodies to screen their characters that if the Gunslinger can get a kill on 2 IG characters then that IG player should rethink their strategy a bit. Also, if the Gunslinger is getting within 12 inches(which is the range of his guns) to fire his pistols then there isn't much that is going to keep him alive next turn except some godlike rolls(which do happen from time to time I admit).

In removing chaff the gunslinger will remove between 0 - 12 Infantry guardsmen a turn. Not exactly the end of the world. 12 soldiers removed and the GS gets gazillion volleys in return. Not really the best user ever.

I imagine the GS(so far, without having the new codex at hand) is meant to kill characters whose players overplayed their hands and didn't protect their leader.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
he's not a strength morph. GSC of similar build can't handle bolters either. There's no real thematic explanation here other than "his revolvers are absurdly strong"

Not Online!!! wrote:
Problem is the fact that he can target charachters and doubles his firerate all by his own.

Other factions would have to pay cp for that.

He may have to lay points for that. Let's not whine about balance and him not costing enough before we've even seen the cost, thanks.

I doubt it, and even if, this dude is more effective then your average csm Lord at 74 ppm or commander at 30.
Against chaff aswell as charachters.

He literally is more effective then a flamer against infantry.

The KT one costs about 140 pts as far as we can tell. The 40k one may cost even more since it has different rules.

You're literally whining about balance before the full roles and cost for a model is released. That's so mind numbingly silly that I'm not going to address it any further. Think about what you are doing right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:

If not these are quite literally unique and named weapons.

These are no pistols my friend, but handcannons.

The FACT is that Space Marines are bio-engineered super soldiers, whose standard issue infantry weaponry are so large and powerful that normal humans are not capable of wielding them.

The fact is also that Genestealer Cults are evolved organisms. If we take your approach to this then GSC hybrids are the equivalent strength of Space Marines as both sport Str 4. A gunslinger seems to be a similar mutation to the Primus who also has Str4. That means the Gunslinger and Primus could easily lift bolters meaning that the only problem with bolters is their unwieldy size and not weight.

Attribute it to an overactive imagination but I imagine these are gameplay abstractions and not stats that have some 1-to-1 parity with lore representation - which is impossible, I mean, look at the bolter in the lore and how it is on the table, no parity at all - at least until I see whether these individuals are the only ones who have the guns or not.

I must, however, go and watch something to relax as I've been airbrushing a lot this evening. I want to thank you sincerely for a heartfelt discussion and regardless of opinion may we both enjoy fighting as and/or fighting against GSC in the near future. : )

 SHUPPET wrote:

he is not spewing nonsense, not at all.

He really is. But it seems you want a turn to spew some as well.

 SHUPPET wrote:
You're completely rewriting the definition of power creep literally as you go to suit your argument.

No. That's literally what I called Slayer_Fan out on. Do try to keep up, old boy.

 SHUPPET wrote:
If the codex itself pushes for new HEIGHTS above the rest of the armies, that's power creep.

Yes. If the CODEX pushes for new heights. Not a few UNITS in an otherwise average codex.

 SHUPPET wrote:
This is how balance is ALWAYS measured, by the strongest way of playing a factor, not by the weakest, what you discuss is internal balance.

But if you're discussing Power Creep, Internal Balance is also highly relevant.

Think of it in terms of a card game - even an otherwise average/weak set can have a few cards way ahead of the curve. If you're at all familiar with MTG, consider the Kamigawa block, which had a few standout cards in a block that was otherwise largely behind the power curve. And a few strong/OP cards in an otherwise weak set do not Power Creep make.

For it to be Power Creep, you would be looking at the majority of cards in a new set being markedly stronger than those from all previous sets.

The same is basically true with 40k codices. If you are looking for Power Creep then you can't simply look at the best units in a book. You also need to look at the other books and see if the majority are stronger than comparable units in previous books.

I mean, by your logic, Blood Angels was Power Creep because it contained Captain Smashfether (or whatever his nickname was). Because apparently the rest of the codex being weaksauce is entirely irrelevant. All that matters is if it has a single unit above the curve. Indeed, it's arguably stronger than any individual unit in the DE codex. So, by your own ridiculous logic, Dark Eldar isn't Power Creep but Blood Angles is.

 SHUPPET wrote:
And with that said, even the units you list as the weakest are mostly all on par with other dexes middle of the line stuff, ie. their bad stuff is mostly better then the bad stuff of the dexes that preceded them.

[Citation needed.]

IG sergeants can wield boltguns, iirc.

Looking for fancy pistols? Plasma and melta pistols.

Don't admech have 5 shot pistols?

I think the Erversor fires his pistol once per attack he has (4 times?)

 Insectum7 wrote:
I think the Erversor fires his pistol once per attack he has (4 times?)

He just has a 4 shot pistol.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I think the Erversor fires his pistol once per attack he has (4 times?)

He just has a 4 shot pistol.

Haha, that's more straight forward than what I recall from way back.

The point is its a fancy pistol/ability.

 vipoid wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

he is not spewing nonsense, not at all.

He really is. But it seems you want a turn to spew some as well.

 SHUPPET wrote:
You're completely rewriting the definition of power creep literally as you go to suit your argument.

No. That's literally what I called Slayer_Fan out on. Do try to keep up, old boy.

You called out Slayer fan for something that he was correct about, and you were unfathomably wrong about. You do not need to get salty when the only correct response here is to reinforce where your mistake is an explain it to you. That's not spewing nonsense, as you claim. I personally don't like to throw around such terms towards people just expressing an opinion and I tend to reserve it for people posting objective misinformation, however with that being said, directing 90% of your posts at downplaying a faction that has clearly cemented itself as one of the best in the game might just fit that description to most.

 vipoid wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
If the codex itself pushes for new HEIGHTS above the rest of the armies, that's power creep.

Yes. If the CODEX pushes for new heights. Not a few UNITS in an otherwise average codex.

That's literally all anyone ever said. That the Dark Eldar CODEX was power creep. And that's what you disagreed with. Not that the worst units in the dex are somehow stronger than other armies best units, the only person who took it there was you. For someone telling others to keep up, you seem to be all over the place with what you're arguing.

 vipoid wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
This is how balance is ALWAYS measured, by the strongest way of playing a factor, not by the weakest, what you discuss is internal balance.

But if you're discussing Power Creep, Internal Balance is also highly relevant.

Think of it in terms of a card game - even an otherwise average/weak set can have a few cards way ahead of the curve. If you're at all familiar with MTG, consider the Kamigawa block, which had a few standout cards in a block that was otherwise largely behind the power curve. And a few strong/OP cards in an otherwise weak set do not Power Creep make.

For it to be Power Creep, you would be looking at the majority of cards in a new set being markedly stronger than those from all previous sets.

The same is basically true with 40k codices. If you are looking for Power Creep then you can't simply look at the best units in a book. You also need to look at the other books and see if the majority are stronger than comparable units in previous books.

I mean, by your logic, Blood Angels was Power Creep because it contained Captain Smashfether (or whatever his nickname was). Because apparently the rest of the codex being weaksauce is entirely irrelevant. All that matters is if it has a single unit above the curve. Indeed, it's arguably stronger than any individual unit in the DE codex. So, by your own ridiculous logic, Dark Eldar isn't Power Creep but Blood Angles is.

Kamigawa didn't raise the power curve, because a single cards or two isn't enough to build or even carry a deck - the overall power level is lower due to the weaker cards you are forced to take . Dark Eldar has MORE than enough top tier units or units at the very least on par with the rest of the game to fill out an entire list, in fact they are fighting for space, with multiple different units and tweaks on builds seeing place at the highest level of play since release. Blood Angels have just the one top tier unit and are held back by the rest of their dex - THEY are an example of the phenomena you describe in Kamigawa, the DE dex is nothing like the BA dex and to even draw that comparison shows unbelievably poor grasp on where these dexes lie. Nobody said anything about "one single unit", in fact I literally said the opposite: that if the Dex, as a whole, reaches new heights in how it can be played (which Dark Eldar absolutely does in comparison to the majority of the game as far as SOLO dexes go), then that is codex creep. Your strawman comparison is beyond erroneous and deliberately angled towards trying to argue the point that you don't want to step down from rather than deliver a fair representation of where your dex stands.


Let's be real here, your post has one motivation, and its shared with 90% of the posts you make - someone said something positive about Dark Eldar, you got your jimmies rustled, and so you came in downplaying and shouting it down. There's no way you would go this length arguing that Tau in 6th, one of the worst examples of power creep yet, wasn't power creep at all because it was simply just codex Riptide + buffs. You have an emotional investment here, its "your" army, you don't want people saying it's too good, and this is why you are immediately combative towards even people just disagreeing civilly with your opinions. Turn it down a notch because you won't win this war of words by attempting to insult me, you will just end up embarrassing yourself further. Let's go back to being civil from here on thanks.

I would say, to be Power Creep, there has to be a (at least semi-) consistent increase in power.

GW doesn't do that. Whether or not something is powerful is pretty damn random.

I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability

C4790M wrote:
I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability

Plus, the suggested "+1 to Wound, AP, and Damage" on a Pistol 2 S3 AP0 D1 gun would result in him being overly good against T8, since he'd still be wounding on 5s.

C4790M wrote:
I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability

you mean like, the hundreds of years of training the genetically enhanced superhumans undergo to do just that, who's bolters don't hurt any more painfully than the same weapons held by non-Astartes?

Face it, this isn't thematic no matter what homebrew lore you make up for it.


the Kelermorphs skill is reflected in his 2+ BS, his ability to target characters, and inspire others around him with his skill. If it was doing extra damage, somehow, that should have gotten a rule.

It's only flavor really, but being that we don't have the full rules yet I think it's a fair talking point, but no big deal. I'm glad GW improved bolters recently at least.

Because, as we all know, Marines focus exclusively on shooting, whereas the Kelermorph is a jack of all trades! /s

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because, as we all know, Marines focus exclusively on shooting, whereas the Kelermorph is a jack of all trades! /s

I didn't make that comparison of who is more skilled with a gun than a Kelermorph or an Astartes. We don't know enough about the Kelermorph lore wise, it's possible he's a better shot than a Space Marines. The point was that if you are arguing that he was given a damage buff to reflect his skill, why is a gun equally as strong in the hands of a space marine chapter master trained to use it for 100's of years, and a guardsmen trained for a fraction of that time, who also lacks all the superhuman skill enhancing modifications?

Regardless, the Kelermorph matches most non-captain marine characters for movespeed, attacks, and weapon skill too, so this sarcasm isn't proving any point.

That is unfortunately just the way it is. The lore has few ties to the gameplay.

 Ashiraya wrote:
That is unfortunately just the way it is. The lore has few ties to the gameplay.

It has many ties to gameplay, it's not perfect but most things are a rough representation of their lore on the field. Lascannons are high strength high damage high armor pen, devourers are high rate of fire needler guns, the knight's harpoon fires once but its rotating cannons fire many shots, etc etc etcalmost every single unit wargear and special rule is a fairly decent reflection of the lore, with a few concessions. GW has done an excellent job of making each army's rules feel like that army does in the lore this edition, and most wargear too, and keep them feeling at a consistent level of punch for what they should be able to do thematically. Which is why I will take the time to throw a slight bit of criticism their way when I feel they've regressed on that a little. I don't think we need to make concessions for this, there's definitely ways they could have achieved the same thing for him here, I'm not condemning GW here because I love the model and the rules both and what they are doing here. Just also being honest about what they could have done better.

 JNAProductions wrote:

C4790M wrote:
I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability

Plus, the suggested "+1 to Wound, AP, and Damage" on a Pistol 2 S3 AP0 D1 gun would result in him being overly good against T8, since he'd still be wounding on 5s.

Why wouldn't he hit the weakspots of a Knight for tactical damage if this is what you are arguing?

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
That is unfortunately just the way it is. The lore has few ties to the gameplay.

It has many ties to gameplay, it's not perfect but most things are a rough representation of their lore on the field. Lascannons are high strength high damage high armor pen, devourers are high rate of fire needler guns, the knight's harpoon fires once but its rotating cannons fire many shots, etc etc etcalmost every single unit wargear and special rule is a fairly decent reflection of the lore, with a few concessions. GW has done an excellent job of making each army's rules feel like that army does in the lore this edition, and most wargear too, and keep them feeling at a consistent level of punch for what they should be able to do thematically. Which is why I will take the time to throw a slight bit of criticism their way when I feel they've regressed on that a little. I don't think we need to make concessions for this, there's definitely ways they could have achieved the same thing for him here, I'm not condemning GW here because I love the model and the rules both and what they are doing here. Just also being honest about what they could have done better.

 JNAProductions wrote:

C4790M wrote:
I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability

Plus, the suggested "+1 to Wound, AP, and Damage" on a Pistol 2 S3 AP0 D1 gun would result in him being overly good against T8, since he'd still be wounding on 5s.

Why wouldn't he hit the weakspots of a Knight for tactical damage if this is what you are arguing?

The weak spot on an Imperial Knight is only so weak.

As compared to the weak spot on a Primaris Marine or a Captain or something especially.

Moreover, I guarantee you, if he had +1 to wound on a S3 gun, people would be up in arms over how he never wounds Knights on worse than a 5.

Eh what?

Knights already get wounded by Autoguns on a 6+, this is to represent the chance of them getting wounded in a weak spot is it not? marines get wounded by Autoguns on a 5+. If you say S4 is meant to represent not his gun having more stopping power, but him being a better shot and hitting them in the right spot as you claim, then it's no reason this wouldn't be the case for him wounding Knights on a 5+ either. It's not making the weak spots any weaker, you're the one saying it's just to represent the fact that he's a better shot. There's no consistency there.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Moreover, I guarantee you, if he had +1 to wound on a S3 gun, people would be up in arms over how he never wounds Knights on worse than a 5.

We haven't even seen the price on him yet. It's literally THE most important stat bar none for whether or not something is balanced. Why are people deciding already what would and wouldn't be too strong?