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Sunny Side Up wrote:
Doesn’t really matter. Whether you destroy an opponents 300+ points key unit like Shining Spears or DW Primaris or deny them to play the game, forcing them to hid behind a screen is more or less of identical value. A value the Kelter-guys point costs must reflect.

Sure, the hidden Castellan or Tau Gunline doesn’t care. Still got to balance its points against all armies, not just the rare few scissors to that paper.

But if he’s priced to the Plasma-Inceptor equivalent of about 18-20 D2 hits (roughly a unit of 7 or 8 without re-rolls, no?), maybe add another 10% or so for being able to target characters and giving re-rolls, there probably won’t be problem.

The problem here is that you want to point him as if T4 2W models (by far his most optimal target) are the only units in the game, but they aren't. In fact they aren't even the most common, by a long shot. If you want to use that context when calculating points cost then you also have to take into consideration what he brings to the table when there are no Shining Spears or Primaris on the table, which is most games.

As a Tyranids player for example, I can confidently state that there is not a single unit in my army that is afraid of this dude. I mean, maybe biovores, but there is no way in hell he will ever get into range to shoot at biovores when up against a horde list. So if you set this dude down on the table and he's more then a 100 points I would laugh in your face and ask if we were supposed to be playing a fluffy narrative game, because playing him into 'nids in a competitive match would basically be trolling. That's also the case for Daemons, Tau and other factions. Go ahead, kill 24 points of gaunts or 2 warriors (average rolls). After that he dies. At the 150 point mark that people are suggesting here he would be completely awful in a TAC environment. 60% of the time he's a guardsmen officer bringing a re-roll 1s aura, with shooting that's good for a single model but in practical terms mediocre against the majority of units types in the game. Rather then pointing him as if he's this one-man army who's assassinating Guilliman, I would make him 1-per-detachment, or a named character like Marbo (which is basically what he is).

The conjecture about this unit reminds me of all the theory-crafting around snipers at the advent of 8th. Anyone remember when Dakka was adamant that ratlings would be a mandatory pick in any Imperial army and that characters were doomed.

I don't know why you're theorizing about him killing regular units. He's built to kill characters. Just because nids have fewer weaker characters doesn't mean he can't find purchase against most other armies. Be a shame if he were to take out Neurothropes though.

Just because your list might not have something for him to kill doesn't mean he shouldn't be costed according to his abilities.

Daemons are quite vulnerable. Skulltaker? Dead. Changeling? Dead. Scribes? Dead. Tau? It'd be a shame if you were to happen to lose that fireblade buffing your all your fire warriors. A couple of them can take a Coldstar.

Ahriman - the lynchpin of tons of armies? 4.5 wounds, which means he's either dead or damn near close to it.

And imagine if the old table stays and he can shoot twice. If he's 1 per - that might make it fine if he was 90 to 120 points - you still need to pay for what he brings.

Kelermorph does average 3 damage to Neurothrope (it has 5W). And Neurothropes aren't as good anymore now that they are bumped to 90pts, but even at 90 I think that's probably going to be well cheaper than he is, I'm thinking he's at about ~150pts based on the KT cost. Back when they were good at 70, he'd have to kill 2 to make that back, that's just not a good model vs Nids like ever even against worser Neurothropes, Blaxican is right. I also think he's right that many lists will share the same thing. Just my opinion.

 SHUPPET wrote:
The point was that if you are arguing that he was given a damage buff to reflect his skill, why is a gun equally as strong in the hands of a space marine chapter master trained to use it for 100's of years, and a guardsmen trained for a fraction of that time, who also lacks all the superhuman skill enhancing modifications?

Why is a genetically-enhanced superhuman with decades of experience and technologically-augmented senses no more effective with a bolter than an Imperial Guard lieutenant with no combat experience who got his post through nepotism?

This is a game with a very limited design space, and few pretensions to consistency, let alone realism. Stats are assigned more for narrative effect than as a realistic assessment of their comparative ballistic performance. Of course a game as hero-oriented as 40K is going to give its three-armed Clint Eastwood expy better damage output than Generic Rank-And-File Space Marine #87,389, even if the lore suggests that the latter is a Mary Sue whose 4s-across-the-board statline represents the pinnacle of combat ability.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Kelermorph does average 3 damage to Neurothrope (it has 5W). And Neurothropes aren't as good anymore now that they are bumped to 90pts, but even at 90 I think that's probably going to be well cheaper than he is, I'm thinking he's at about ~150pts based on the KT cost. Back when they were good at 70, he'd have to kill 2 to make that back, that's just not a good model vs Nids like ever even against worser Neurothropes, Blaxican is right. I also think he's right that many lists will share the same thing. Just my opinion.

Still - one should not expect a discount on a las pred simply because it finds itself fighting a 3++ Castellan rather than a tank without an invulnerable.

Well in the story he's in his pistols punch through arbite armor like it's nothing.

Also now a marine with a bolter is better then a guardsmen with a bolter as he now can gets to rapid fire at 24" if he doesn't move.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Kelermorph does average 3 damage to Neurothrope (it has 5W). And Neurothropes aren't as good anymore now that they are bumped to 90pts, but even at 90 I think that's probably going to be well cheaper than he is, I'm thinking he's at about ~150pts based on the KT cost. Back when they were good at 70, he'd have to kill 2 to make that back, that's just not a good model vs Nids like ever even against worser Neurothropes, Blaxican is right. I also think he's right that many lists will share the same thing. Just my opinion.

Think you've done your maths wrong there. Kellermorph averages 6 damage to a Neurothrope, killing it most of the time.

(6×5÷6+5×5÷6)×.5×2÷3×2 = 6.11

First model, rules after... right?

So, for me it's a total botch. I will never ever go to a game and expect that this model, with this pistol, this size has this ridiculous firepower. And since I don't play to memorize all the statline and and rules of other models in countless army... I think it's a design failure because whoever look at this model and gives him this statline did a bad job. Whatever the price will be.

Takes Orks as an example: roughly they do what you except.
This guy instead is a classic "gotcha" trick up your sleeves that will work once against skilled player, but that is unnecessary punishing and a gatekeeper versus new player.

Really a bad choice, design-wise.
Even if the model is wonderful.
In short, another poisoned fruit of GW internal policies.

If he targets a Space Marine Captain, he'll typically hit 9.17 times. Of those, he will typically wound 4.58 times. That leaves 1.5 wounding hits for 2 or 4 damage if the Captain has a Storm Shield, or 2.3 wounding hits for 4 (mos likely) or 6 damage if he relies on his Iron Halo. With the inherent variability from that many dice rolls, you aren't reliably killing a character worth well under 100 points. Terminator Captain will be the same as Storm Shield guy, and his extra wound is actually no use at all.

If he targets a Farseer worth 110+ points, he'll still get 9.17 hits, wounding 6.11 times. Half of those will be saved, 3 we are looking at 3 unsaved wounds, doing enough to typicall kill a Farseer. But it only requires one fewer wound roll or one extra save roll to be made, so is hardly a guarantee.

I think he has a good, but not guaranteed chance of killing 100ish points models. If he doesn't kill, he'll hurt them, at least. On the other hand, you have to hope your opponent has some suitable targets.

What about 2W models? Hellblasters will see 2 or maybe 3 dead, typically. Not making lots of points back. Terminators will lose one or two models...

I know I am talking about "typical" rolls, but the results will be very variable both up and down. Total overkill is no more useful than the exact number of wounds needed, and there will be plenty of times he doesn't finish the job. Against Marines, if he is more than 100 points, he is overcosted, in my opinion. Even if the marines include his optimal targets, he still has no guarantees.

Now, against some armies, Eldar, for example, he might be more useful. Against Tyranids, it already sounds like he is not all that amazing.

I dunno, he sounds really good, but not game-breaking.

 Cybtroll wrote:
First model, rules after... right?

So, for me it's a total botch. I will never ever go to a game and expect that this model, with this pistol, this size has this ridiculous firepower. And since I don't play to memorize all the statline and and rules of other models in countless army... I think it's a design failure because whoever look at this model and gives him this statline did a bad job. Whatever the price will be.

Takes Orks as an example: roughly they do what you except.
This guy instead is a classic "gotcha" trick up your sleeves that will work once against skilled player, but that is unnecessary punishing and a gatekeeper versus new player.

Really a bad choice, design-wise.
Even if the model is wonderful.
In short, another poisoned fruit of GW internal policies.

I find this post extremely over the top and reactionary.

Does the average Psyker look like he'll unleash the fury of the warp?

Do Imperial Assassin's, to a new player, look like this they would have the abilities and strengths they do?

No. Not at all.

If your opponent actively conceals the strength of his units in a friendly game, yeah he's a jerk. But calling this gatekeeping and poisoned fruit is laughably ridiculous.

 Stux wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Kelermorph does average 3 damage to Neurothrope (it has 5W). And Neurothropes aren't as good anymore now that they are bumped to 90pts, but even at 90 I think that's probably going to be well cheaper than he is, I'm thinking he's at about ~150pts based on the KT cost. Back when they were good at 70, he'd have to kill 2 to make that back, that's just not a good model vs Nids like ever even against worser Neurothropes, Blaxican is right. I also think he's right that many lists will share the same thing. Just my opinion.

Think you've done your maths wrong there. Kellermorph averages 6 damage to a Neurothrope, killing it most of the time.

(6×5÷6+5×5÷6)×.5×2÷3×2 = 6.11

Neurothropes are T4 with a 3+ invulnerable save, not a 5+ save. Only 1/3 of wunds go unsaved.

(6×5÷6+5×5÷6) is 9.17 hits,

x0.5 is 4.58 wounds

x.33 is 1.5 unsaved wounds

is 3 damage.

His maths is right.

 Fifty wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Kelermorph does average 3 damage to Neurothrope (it has 5W). And Neurothropes aren't as good anymore now that they are bumped to 90pts, but even at 90 I think that's probably going to be well cheaper than he is, I'm thinking he's at about ~150pts based on the KT cost. Back when they were good at 70, he'd have to kill 2 to make that back, that's just not a good model vs Nids like ever even against worser Neurothropes, Blaxican is right. I also think he's right that many lists will share the same thing. Just my opinion.

Think you've done your maths wrong there. Kellermorph averages 6 damage to a Neurothrope, killing it most of the time.

(6×5÷6+5×5÷6)×.5×2÷3×2 = 6.11

Neurothropes are T4 with a 3+ invulnerable save, not a 5+ save. Only 1/3 of wunds go unsaved.

(6×5÷6+5×5÷6) is 9.17 hits,

x0.5 is 4.58 wounds

x.33 is 1.5 unsaved wounds

is 3 damage.

His maths is right.

You're right, apologies to SHUPPET. I got his saves the wrong way round for some reason!

I've done the same myself more than once. That is why I now look for it straight away.

This guy instead is a classic "gotcha" trick up your sleeves that will work once against skilled player, but that is unnecessary punishing and a gatekeeper versus new player.

No hyperbole here at all. /s

There are ton of units that can be overly punishing against a new player. To claim that this unit is somehow more so is just exaggeration.

It is starting to feel like some people are engaging in catastrophic thinking, ie. that only the worst case scenario is is going to happen regardless of the randomness of the die or situation.

Most of the maths here assumes he only gets to shoot once per turn. If he drops in and is likely to fire twice because muh cult ambush the numbers are doubled. Not to mention the fact that he also buffs other units and that the units he is designed to kill are buffing characters themselves, so suddenly rerolls are disappearing, units can no longer advance and charge, psychic powers go away etc

His worth is significantly more than the total value of the models he can kill. The death of a lynchpin character can win or lose a game and is often debilitating to the receiving end.

I think the negative reaction/high anticipated points cost for this model is due to three primary reasons, one; there seems to be little/nothing a player can do to counter a kelermorph killing a character with impunity (excluding screening), which isn't fun, two; the units the kelermorph is designed to kill are generally those models players spent more time painting because they are their character models and three; a ton of str 4 D2 shots hitting on 2s hurts units that were already a poor choice competitively and the need to screen only heightens the requirement for cheap chaff units, something we currently see all over the meta anyway.

But we don't yet know what the cult ambush table will look like, so his chances of shooting twice may well be miniscule. All of this is in an information void.

As for those buffs he is eliminating, they are built into the cost of the thing he is killing. If you want to count them separately as something else he is elminating, you have to reduce the relative cost of the target. ALL models are worth something other than what they can kill. Space Marine Scouts, for example, who act as troops and area-denial, but to whom this guy has been favourably compared.

If time-spent-painting is an issue on how quickly models should die, then my Storm Guardians should have a 2+ invulnerable save.

Ultimately, we need to see the ambush table and his points before any of us can make a final judgement. And if they do the points wrong, they'll change.

catbarf wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The point was that if you are arguing that he was given a damage buff to reflect his skill, why is a gun equally as strong in the hands of a space marine chapter master trained to use it for 100's of years, and a guardsmen trained for a fraction of that time, who also lacks all the superhuman skill enhancing modifications?

Why is a genetically-enhanced superhuman with decades of experience and technologically-augmented senses no more effective with a bolter than an Imperial Guard lieutenant with no combat experience who got his post through nepotism?

This is a game with a very limited design space, and few pretensions to consistency, let alone realism. Stats are assigned more for narrative effect than as a realistic assessment of their comparative ballistic performance. Of course a game as hero-oriented as 40K is going to give its three-armed Clint Eastwood expy better damage output than Generic Rank-And-File Space Marine #87,389, even if the lore suggests that the latter is a Mary Sue whose 4s-across-the-board statline represents the pinnacle of combat ability.

no I agree with that, which is why my comparison was to other SM characters. I know WHY they did it, I get the motivation, but I feel it's anti thematic and I don't agree with it. That's my constructive criticism to GW, not they they are reading. m


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Kelermorph does average 3 damage to Neurothrope (it has 5W). And Neurothropes aren't as good anymore now that they are bumped to 90pts, but even at 90 I think that's probably going to be well cheaper than he is, I'm thinking he's at about ~150pts based on the KT cost. Back when they were good at 70, he'd have to kill 2 to make that back, that's just not a good model vs Nids like ever even against worser Neurothropes, Blaxican is right. I also think he's right that many lists will share the same thing. Just my opinion.

Still - one should not expect a discount on a las pred simply because it finds itself fighting a 3++ Castellan rather than a tank without an invulnerable.

I'm not saying he needs a discount. I don't even know his price yet. My point is that I agree with the speculation that he's going to be highly match up dependant, and that he's not gonna be cheap enough in points to just throw in without having a real good match up.

I'm personally a fan of this very directed tools. They let you shore up poor matches in a list at the cost of maybe some measure of dominance in a winning match. I don't think they SHOULD cost so little that they are an easy decision to include, I think that defeats the idea.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Most of the maths here assumes he only gets to shoot once per turn. If he drops in and is likely to fire twice because muh cult ambush the numbers are doubled. Not to mention the fact that he also buffs other units and that the units he is designed to kill are buffing characters themselves, so suddenly rerolls are disappearing, units can no longer advance and charge, psychic powers go away etc

He still only has a 1/6 chance of getting shoot twice. He needs to roll a natural 2. Anything higher will not allow him to shoot twice.

In fact, currently, a natural roll of 4 or more does nothing, because there is no entry on the table for a 7/8/9. As in he doesn't get to deploy, by RAW.

That just says to me we can't assume anything about Ambush once the Codex drops, so let's not get all Chicken Little about him shooting twice please.

 Eldarsif wrote:

This guy instead is a classic "gotcha" trick up your sleeves that will work once against skilled player, but that is unnecessary punishing and a gatekeeper versus new player.

No hyperbole here at all. /s

There are ton of units that can be overly punishing against a new player. To claim that this unit is somehow more so is just exaggeration.

It is starting to feel like some people are engaging in catastrophic thinking, ie. that only the worst case scenario is is going to happen regardless of the randomness of the die or situation.

That is true, the question is how must take is he going to be. If a punishing model requires the opponent to be an a hole and tailor vs a new player with a unit he would never ever take in a real game, it is much less of a problem, then a unit that will always be taken and gives a new player the feeling he picked his army the wrong way.
Plus the dude is going to be cheap cash wise. It is one thing to be shown the real w40k by someone fielding a castellan vs someone using 3 dudes he build out of his troops box. This makes people rethink getting in to the game, becaue they will fear and rightfully so, that w40k is full of such units and combos.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The problem here is that you want to point him as if T4 2W models (by far his most optimal target) are the only units in the game, but they aren't. In fact they aren't even the most common, by a long shot. If you want to use that context when calculating points cost then you also have to take into consideration what he brings to the table when there are no Shining Spears or Primaris on the table, which is most games.

You're aware by that argument lascannons should be free, because when you face pure foot army of IG, Orks, GSC, or Tyranids, they will kill less 5 pts models than a free bolter?

If you really can't see the value of removing a lynchpin character model virtually at will, something 90% of the armies in the game relies on, I don't know what to tell you. Even vehicle based armies often have a character to repair or buff them, and removing them will delete hundreds of points of extra wounds or shooting that character would have provided. And unless you play knights, you can't even prepare for him by not taking characters seeing they are kinda mandatory in almost all armies and all.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Don't admech have 5 shot pistols?

The 5 shot pistol is literally UZI, though, compact machine gun that can be only fired with any accuracy because the wielder literally has steel arms. And as I stated in Kill Team thread, no one would have objected if the Keler Sue could fire six S4 - shots, or even nine S3 - to represent him being amazingly fast with guns. It's the combination of more D2 garbage coupled with AP only found on stuff like heavy bolters and autocannons (even closest frakking DW equivalent is huge, two handed cannon an Astartes has to fire with both hands that still has far worse stats than something this guy cobbled in a cave despite being best SM, Inquisition, and Admech could provide) that rubs the people the wrong way.

C4790M wrote:
I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability

We already have one of those. Cypher not only used to have BS10, highest possible at all, even higher than literal strongest avatars of god of war, thousands of years old Eldar gunslingers, or millions of years old impossibly advanced murder machines, he was HH Dark Angel, legion that got best equipment Imperium had, including most of relic dark age guns Emperor could find.

Spoiler alert, his bolt pistol still comes nowhere near to the homemade junk GSC can apparently mass produce in a basement. Gee, maybe Emperor should hire one of those instead of mucking about with primarch project because this guy makes both space marines and their gear look like utter, colossal failures...

 Fifty wrote:

Ultimately, we need to see the ambush table and his points before any of us can make a final judgement. And if they do the points wrong, they'll change.

Like those Guardsmen and Castellans that got appropriate re-costings right?

Oh wait.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Fifty wrote:

Ultimately, we need to see the ambush table and his points before any of us can make a final judgement. And if they do the points wrong, they'll change.

Like those Guardsmen and Castellans that got appropriate re-costings right?

Oh wait.

YAAAAAWN

Fifty is right. Please everyone stop saying the guy is insane until we actually know how the army will work.

I guess now I know the real reason for space wolves to be in Vigilus.

Those megatech D2 pistols with heavybolter-like ap and assault cannon's rate of fire put to shame even necron/eldar tecnology. Getting this weapon for the Emperor's finest could turn the table to the Imperium side more than primaris project. Even blackstone fortress do not has such technology inside.

I guess I can start entite narrative campaign about the REAL reason why everyone is fighting on the Vigilus. Chaos, eldars and Imperium are trying to get their hans on those megapistols. But even in the Imperium there are rivalry between Astartes and Admech, both wants to put their hands on those pistols first, and the winner will have the ability to change the fate of the entire galaxy

Silver144 wrote:
I guess now I know the real reason for space wolves to be in Vigilus.

Those megatech D2 pistols with heavybolter-like ap and assault cannon's rate of fire put to shame even necron/eldar tecnology. Getting this weapon for the Emperor's finest could turn the table to the Imperium side more than primaris project. Even blackstone fortress do not has such technology inside.

I guess I can start entite narrative campaign about the REAL reason why everyone is fighting on the Vigilus. Chaos, eldars and Imperium are trying to get their hans on those megapistols. But even in the Imperium there are rivalry between Astartes and Admech, both wants to put their hands on those pistols first, and the winner will have the ability to change the fate of the entire galaxy

Custodes have pistol 2 range 18" strenght 6 ap -2 d2 hit roll 6 scores additional hit.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The conjecture about this unit reminds me of all the theory-crafting around snipers at the advent of 8th. Anyone remember when Dakka was adamant that ratlings would be a mandatory pick in any Imperial army and that characters were doomed.

To be fair Ratlings were nerfed in CA17 (I think, might have been before).
But yeah, the reality of it was that the sort of characters you can kill with snipers are not critical game pieces. At best you get a normal(ish) return for your points against a very small set of targets. This is why ratlings, Eldar rangers, Deathmarks and sniper scouts (outside of Guilliman fish for 6s builds and even then) are not staples of the meta.

I do wonder whether ratlings might help in the timeless Imperial Soup vs Eldar Soup, welcome to 8th edition tournament meta - but I imagine more inquiring minds than mine have concluded getting the doom-casting biker can't be done.

===

Also you would expect Las Preds to get a price reduction because it now consistently ends up fighting targets with invul saves, that can move without the heavy penalty and pack more firepower for the same points. This is a good example of creep. The Pred was okay in the Index, today its decidedly not. Points reductions have helped, but not by nearly enough.

I mean I think the forum demands I don't do this - because poor old sisters players - but consider that an exorcist is just 125 points for D6 range 48" dark lance shots (and T8 6++). A pred meanwhile has one lower toughness, one fewer wounds and no invul is 180 with 4 lascannons. I can see the argument for S9 AP-3 versus S8 AP-4 (especially in a invul soaked meta), and the reliability of 4 shots vs D6, but a near 50% difference? In case its not clear - I think the exorcist is totally fine in the current meta, the issue is that the pred started average to bad and today is rubbish.

catbarf wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The point was that if you are arguing that he was given a damage buff to reflect his skill, why is a gun equally as strong in the hands of a space marine chapter master trained to use it for 100's of years, and a guardsmen trained for a fraction of that time, who also lacks all the superhuman skill enhancing modifications?

Why is a genetically-enhanced superhuman with decades of experience and technologically-augmented senses no more effective with a bolter than an Imperial Guard lieutenant with no combat experience who got his post through nepotism?

This is a game with a very limited design space, and few pretensions to consistency, let alone realism. Stats are assigned more for narrative effect than as a realistic assessment of their comparative ballistic performance. Of course a game as hero-oriented as 40K is going to give its three-armed Clint Eastwood expy better damage output than Generic Rank-And-File Space Marine #87,389, even if the lore suggests that the latter is a Mary Sue whose 4s-across-the-board statline represents the pinnacle of combat ability.

Oh my Gods, the stupid Bolter thread argument is leaking

irbis wrote:

C4790M wrote:
I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability

We already have one of those. Cypher not only used to have BS10, highest possible at all, even higher than literal strongest avatars of god of war, thousands of years old Eldar gunslingers, or millions of years old impossibly advanced murder machines, he was HH Dark Angel, legion that got best equipment Imperium had, including most of relic dark age guns Emperor could find.

Spoiler alert, his bolt pistol still comes nowhere near to the homemade junk GSC can apparently mass produce in a basement. Gee, maybe Emperor should hire one of those instead of mucking about with primarch project because this guy makes both space marines and their gear look like utter, colossal failures...

Thank you! We have rules to reflect being an incredible shot, and we have a precedent for how its reflected on the tabletop. Either way this guy got treatment that other comparable units did not, even if you homebrew up some lore explanation "obviously it's just this". Well, it's not actually. This reaching, to immediately dismiss the criticism to the feel of a unit thematically and acting as though you can't even comprehend how people couldn't fill in the gaps, even tho there is no precedent for your personal excuse you made up, and the fact that it STILL leaves the same consistencies, just screams fanboyism to me. I'm sure you do understand the criticism you just wanted to dismiss it.

Angra wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
I guess now I know the real reason for space wolves to be in Vigilus.

Those megatech D2 pistols with heavybolter-like ap and assault cannon's rate of fire put to shame even necron/eldar tecnology. Getting this weapon for the Emperor's finest could turn the table to the Imperium side more than primaris project. Even blackstone fortress do not has such technology inside.

I guess I can start entite narrative campaign about the REAL reason why everyone is fighting on the Vigilus. Chaos, eldars and Imperium are trying to get their hans on those megapistols. But even in the Imperium there are rivalry between Astartes and Admech, both wants to put their hands on those pistols first, and the winner will have the ability to change the fate of the entire galaxy

Custodes have pistol 2 range 18" strenght 6 ap -2 d2 hit roll 6 scores additional hit.

Oh come on, don't argue, his post was funny.

 SHUPPET wrote:

irbis wrote:

C4790M wrote:
I don’t understand the reason why everyone is freaking over the dudes guns. He’s supposed the be the GSC’s version of Batman or Arrow, he’s probably got super tactical gunslinging abilities that let him hit weak spots for massive damage, and GW wanted to save some data sheet space by incorporating this into the gun stats rather than spelling it out on an ability

We already have one of those. Cypher not only used to have BS10, highest possible at all, even higher than literal strongest avatars of god of war, thousands of years old Eldar gunslingers, or millions of years old impossibly advanced murder machines, he was HH Dark Angel, legion that got best equipment Imperium had, including most of relic dark age guns Emperor could find.

Spoiler alert, his bolt pistol still comes nowhere near to the homemade junk GSC can apparently mass produce in a basement. Gee, maybe Emperor should hire one of those instead of mucking about with primarch project because this guy makes both space marines and their gear look like utter, colossal failures...

Thank you! We have rules to reflect being an incredible shot, and we have a precedent for how its reflected on the tabletop. Either way this guy got treatment that other comparable units did not, even if you homebrew up some lore explanation "obviously it's just this". Well, it's not actually. This reaching, to immediately dismiss the criticism to the feel of a unit thematically and acting as though you can't even comprehend how people couldn't fill in the gaps, even tho there is no precedent for your personal excuse you made up, and the fact that it STILL leaves the same consistencies, just screams fanboyism to me. I'm sure you do understand the criticism you just wanted to dismiss it.

I understand the criticism, I just don’t see why its a big deal? Its a cool model with a cool special rule, and weapons to make it worth taking. This is way better than being disappointed by new models/units, like when Sly Marbo, or all the Ork Speed Freaks stuff came out. It doesn’t shatter the lore of the 40k universe, at worst is a minor inconsistency of lore/rules.

And that's where I'd argue that it's a cool model with a bogus special rule. Reduce the damage of the pistol to '1' and I'd think "okay, that's cool". Damage 2 means that every once in a while this guy is going to roll well and do an obscene amount of damage to either a squad, or a character (possibly several, since he could in theory fire his pistol at three separate targets).

If, God forbid, this is not limited to a single model, it'll become a really boring auto-take option for GSC even in a tournament setting. "Oh, okay, your first turn (or whatever the new GSC ambush is) you're going to absolutely pop those X dudes up and kill off any sub-character or special squad I need in the game and there's nothing I can do about it". That's not cool, it's...lame. It's not Ork-boyz-360 dumb, but it's definitely a poor design choice.

I'm not terribly interested in the statistical average of what he will do, but rather the table-flipping moments he will cause when you roll really well. That's not fun for your opponent.

Given his stat line, I suspect this'll be a dirt cheap character, a throw-away, and will do plenty of damage before he's immediately shot off the table. If he's say...65 points, which I think is where he'll land, you're going to have that handful of games where he pops up and shoots dead 6-7 Hellblasters or something and you're going to get a solid "feth you" from your opponent. It won't happen often, but it'll be a lame, souring experience when it does.