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Scuse me but how are they connected to "THE Hivemeind"? Also how would you expect that to coordinate them to the point where they get access to better then military grade weaponry?

After a pregnant host (or whoever they impregnated) gives birth, their viciously malformed offspring creates a hive mind connection between itself, its parents, and the Genestealers (though this raises the question of how anyone else in the room during the birth, such as midwives, would react.) This connection and the mutations brought on by the Genestealer's seed proceed to subliminally twist the minds of both parents so that they unconditionally love their child and revere the Genestealers either as gods or as creatures sent by gods (the exact interpretation varies, you understand), usually fleeing into darkened tunnels, catacombs or sewers to avoid discovery.

Lot of psionics going on.

So you're saying that plasma weapons are not military grade? Because they do more or less the same with higher strength and better AP. I mean, a plasma pistol can even rip through tank armor which is much harder for the Desert Eagle you are being mad about.

Plasma pistol = Can reliably burn through tanks and titan armor. Is good against humanoids. Not military grade
LiberatorAutostub = Can not burn through tanks and titan armor easily, but is good against humanoids. Super Military Grade



Inte

Not Online!!! wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Thirdly: The sniperrifle is probably the first time i see a profile for a sniperrifle that would actually be worth it as a special weapon profile overall.

The Admech sniper rifles, the transuranic arquebus, are still far scarier than that one. Sure those can't move and fire at all but the profile itself is pretty tasty.
Heavy 1 60" S7 AP-2 Damage d3 Any wound roll of 6+ causes an additional mortal wound

I always regarded that one as more of a Anti-material-rifle /Panzerbüchse. (AT rifle)

It can target charachters right?

Oh, it'll often pull that kind of duty since it'll wound normal vehicles on 4's. But it is a sniper rifle since it can target characters even if they're not the closest model.

Even SM weapons aren't really measuring up.

To be fair SM weaponry doesn't measure up against anything these days unless you take Deathwatch. That is more a design problem of the Space Marine codex in relation to every other faction. Even GW is acknowledging that considering the fact that they are adding beta rules to improve SM weaponry.

the wish for dark Mechanicum has just intensified on my behalf........
(imagine one with demonic projectiles, the memes, mostly the bad rolls and instagibbs of your own squads thanks to beeing omnomnomed by angry daemons)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:

Even SM weapons aren't really measuring up.

To be fair SM weaponry doesn't measure up against anything these days unless you take Deathwatch. That is more a design problem of the Space Marine codex in relation to every other faction. Even GW is acknowledging that considering the fact that they are adding beta rules to improve SM weaponry.

That stubpistol in this case however is certainly not any help at all considering how GW closed of the design space for marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:

Scuse me but how are they connected to "THE Hivemeind"? Also how would you expect that to coordinate them to the point where they get access to better then military grade weaponry?

After a pregnant host (or whoever they impregnated) gives birth, their viciously malformed offspring creates a hive mind connection between itself, its parents, and the Genestealers (though this raises the question of how anyone else in the room during the birth, such as midwives, would react.) This connection and the mutations brought on by the Genestealer's seed proceed to subliminally twist the minds of both parents so that they unconditionally love their child and revere the Genestealers either as gods or as creatures sent by gods (the exact interpretation varies, you understand), usually fleeing into darkened tunnels, catacombs or sewers to avoid discovery.

Lot of psionics going on.

So you're saying that plasma weapons are not military grade? Because they do more or less the same with higher strength and better AP. I mean, a plasma pistol can even rip through tank armor which is much harder for the Desert Eagle you are being mad about.

Plasma pistol = Can reliably burn through tanks and titan armor. Is good against humanoids. Not military grade
LiberatorAutostub = Can not burn through tanks and titan armor easily, but is good against humanoids. Super Military Grade



Inte

Nope not true, Genestealer Cults are not connected to the hivemind, they act as a Beacon not more not less.
They generate a small time quasi mini hivemind for controll of the Cult itself, but they are not part of the hivemind.

As for plasma pistols, i never said they weren't military grade, i am however wondering how a STUBPISTOL of all things is now outperforming all Boltpistols in existence, even cyphers one.

That stubpistol in this case however is certainly not any help at all considering how GW closed of the design space for marines.

How did they close off the design space for Marines? Technically nothing is closed off as all of this is GW's IP and they could change things as they wish as is evident by 8th edition and the new beta rules.

At this point it is probably easier to attempt to bring Space Marine up to parity with damage output than nerfing every single faction.

 Eldarsif wrote:

That stubpistol in this case however is certainly not any help at all considering how GW closed of the design space for marines.

How did they close off the design space for Marines? Technically nothing is closed off as all of this is GW's IP and they could change things as they wish as is evident by 8th edition and the new beta rules.

At this point it is probably easier to attempt to bring Space Marine up to parity with damage output than nerfing every single faction.

Because of scalling?

Mainly if i make bolter stronger, primaris want better bolters too.
If Bolters are stronger, Noise marines want better sonic weaponry too.
Not to mention that that pushes the heavy bolter upwards etc.

i am however wondering how a STUBPISTOL of all things is now outperforming all Boltpistols in existence, even cyphers one.

LIBERATOR STUBPISTOL. Wee, caps. These are apparently special Stubpistols as is indicated by the entry. A lot of things outperform boltpistols so I am wondering why this straw was worse than all the other straws.

Regarding Cypher my guess is that he is more of an afterthought that has never been adjusted to represent his legendary abilities. I mean, if he were as powerful as people are arguing in this thread then he should be autotake, but I am lucky if I see someone playing him every 10 years or so. Hell, I own two Cyphers and I don't even use him.

I am also wondering why Cypher has become the metric stick for every single unit in the game. There are ton of units that are badly balanced against his abilities. Why not talk about Marbo then? Ripper Pistol is strength 5(stronger than the Liberator) and autowounds on 2 and has 3 shots.


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Because of scalling?

Mainly if i make bolter stronger, primaris want better bolters too.
If Bolters are stronger, Noise marines want better sonic weaponry too.
Not to mention that that pushes the heavy bolter upwards etc.

So scaling 10+ factions down is better than scaling a single faction up?

 Eldarsif wrote:

i am however wondering how a STUBPISTOL of all things is now outperforming all Boltpistols in existence, even cyphers one.

LIBERATOR STUBPISTOL. Wee, caps. These are apparently special Stubpistols as is indicated by the entry. A lot of things outperform boltpistols so I am wondering why this straw was worse than all the other straws.

Regarding Cypher my guess is that he is more of an afterthought that has never been adjusted to represent his legendary abilities. I mean, if he were as powerful as people are arguing in this thread then he should be autotake, but I am lucky if I see someone playing him every 10 years or so. Hell, I own two Cyphers and I don't even use him.

I am also wondering why Cypher has become the metric stick for every single unit in the game. There are ton of units that are badly balanced against his abilities. Why not talk about Marbo then? Ripper Pistol is strength 5(stronger than the Liberator) and autowounds on 2 and has 3 shots.

Just because it is named variant that seemingly can get massproduced everywhere nowadays.

Autogun/ lasgun > Bolter> Hellgun> Heavy Bolter

Stub weaponry normaly ranges under these and are CIVILIAN ISSUE.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

So scaling 10+ factions down is better than scaling a single faction up?

No, scalling the stupid liberator pistols down is the right thing to do.
because of this

Autogun/ lasgun > Bolter> Hellgun> Heavy Bolter

Stub weaponry normaly ranges under these and are CIVILIAN ISSUE.

Just because it is named variant that seemingly can get massproduced everywhere nowadays.

What indicates that these Liberator guns are massproduced everywhere? As far as I know the gunslinger is the only one in the history of the game that has their hands on them. If you can point me to other units in the game that have the same gun then I would be happy to be informed.

No, scalling the stupid liberator pistols down is the right thing to do.

Right thing because? Is there a law that forbids game designers from exploring their game? I find these "right thing" arguments too subjective to take seriously. I can understand keeping balance is the right thing to do for the health of the game, but that's a Right Thing argument based on why and how and as we have no idea how the gunslinger will play on the table we are unable to argue based on that. You appear to be arguing for some parity between your idea of the lore and abstract attribute representation which is weird considering how nothing in the game really has any resemblance of such parity. I mean, if we revert back to Cypher we can see that he really has no proper parity with lore and attribute.

Stub weaponry normaly ranges under these and are CIVILIAN ISSUE.

Generic stub weaponry might be civilian issues, but since we don't see many Liberators around my guess is that they are a bit more special.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Stub weaponry normaly ranges under these and are CIVILIAN ISSUE.

This stub pustol much better than plasmapistol, it has 2..4 shots and do not explode on 1. I'll be happy to give a pair to all my sarg and characters.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Just because it is named variant that seemingly can get massproduced everywhere nowadays.

What indicates that these Liberator guns are massproduced everywhere? As far as I know the gunslinger is the only one in the history of the game that has their hands on them. If you can point me to other units in the game that have the same gun then I would be happy to be informed.

No, scalling the stupid liberator pistols down is the right thing to do.

Right thing because? Is there a law that forbids game designers from exploring their game? I find these "right thing" arguments too subjective to take seriously. I can understand keeping balance is the right thing to do for the health of the game, but that's a Right Thing argument based on why and how and as we have no idea how the gunslinger will play on the table we are unable to argue based on that. You appear to be arguing for some parity between your idea of the lore and abstract attribute representation which is weird considering how nothing in the game really has any resemblance of such parity. I mean, if we revert back to Cypher we can see that he really has no proper parity with lore and attribute.

Stub weaponry normaly ranges under these and are CIVILIAN ISSUE.

Generic stub weaponry might be civilian issues, but since we don't see many Liberators around my guess is that they are a bit more special.

I like how you ignore all context that i gave you.

Massproduction: so far we don't see any limit beyond the potential application for rule of three. Also 3 alone on one model.

As for the right thing:
Stubpistol before ; S3 range 6" . Autogun/lasgun s3, Bolter S4, etc.
There was a propper scale once.
Now along comes this stubpistol and Gaks all over it.

As for cypher, ofcourse he is now worthless, not even Bolter discipline applies to him and the Fallen since GW can't even manage to know their own keywords. Scale and powercreep are however the reason you don't see him.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Adeptus Mechanicus:

STUBcarbine R 18" Pistol 3 S4 AP 0 D1

MacroSTUBber R 12" Pistol 5 S4 AP 0 D1

Two examples of multishot S4 stub weapons apparently military issue.

Fair, but there's a drawback with those weapons. When fired, the player must make a "ratata" noise. Or is that just me?

Adeptus Mechanicus:

STUBcarbine R 18" Pistol 3 S4 AP 0 D1

MacroSTUBber R 12" Pistol 5 S4 AP 0 D1

Two examples of multishot S4 stub weapons apparently military issue.

Key difference, Mechanicum Stub weaponry.
And neither of these come close to the Liberator Stubpistol which is not produced by proffessionaly it seems, since no Imperium faction has accesss to them.

Silver144 wrote:
This stub pustol much better than plasmapistol, it has 2..4 shots and do not explode on 1. I'll be happy to give a pair to all my sarg and characters.

Depends on what you are using it for. The Liberator is good against humanoids. Plasma is better against higher toughness characters and tanks.

Also, the pistol is only Pistol 2. The extra shots are just the Gunslinger pulling a High Noon a la McCree. It's not like Azrael's Bolter gives a 4+ invuln. save to everyone around it ore reroll to hit.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
This stub pustol much better than plasmapistol, it has 2..4 shots and do not explode on 1. I'll be happy to give a pair to all my sarg and characters.

Depends on what you are using it for. The Liberator is good against humanoids. Plasma is better against higher toughness characters and tanks.

Also, the pistol is only Pistol 2. The extra shots are just the Gunslinger pulling a High Noon a la McCree. It's not like Azrael's Bolter gives a 4+ invuln. save to everyone around it ore reroll to hit.

Not to mention that a generic kellermorph pulls a highnoon but cypher is not capable of it.....

No powercreep at all, no scale creep at all, everything is fine......

 Eldarsif wrote:

Silver144 wrote:
This stub pustol much better than plasmapistol, it has 2..4 shots and do not explode on 1. I'll be happy to give a pair to all my sarg and characters.

Depends on what you are using it for. The Liberator is good against humanoids. Plasma is better against higher toughness characters and tanks.

Also, the pistol is only Pistol 2. The extra shots are just the Gunslinger pulling a High Noon a la McCree. It's not like Azrael's Bolter gives a 4+ invuln. save to everyone around it ore reroll to hit.

No, the rate of fire is up to the weapon. My wolf lord do not fire his boltpistol twice just because he is character. He fire it with the same profile as neophyte. The BS is up to character, so this guys having bs2+ represents them being good in shooting, not rate of fire.
And assuming, that a revolver with drum have 2x rate of fire than assault rifle is ridiculous. The admech stab weapon is machinguns, it's ok for machingun to has hight rate of fire. The liberator is a revolver, it is not ok to outshoot assault rifles with revolver. I call BS here.

It's still wildly out of proportion compared to similar weapons on more prominent characters. There is no reason a GSC elite unit should have a better Pistol (let alone three of them) than a Techpriest Dominus a Space Marine Captain or equivalent.

This is a clear example of style taking precedence over rules and consistency and it's only fair people are critcising it.

Not to mention that a generic kellermorph pulls a highnoon but cypher is not capable of it.....

Lord Emperor have mercy. Where has this sudden Cypher love come from? Is everyone playing Cypher these days? Is he meta? Is he the Alpha and the Omega? IS HE ALPHARIUS?

Is there a new Horus Heresy novel or something that is exalting him to new heights because I am truly flabbergasted by the strange appreciation of Cypher that is in this thread.

Also, if Cypher has become some weird metric that everything should be judged against I do hope he is squatted because no unit should have that much power over game design and lore. He is truly the worst Gary Stu of them all.

So, since the discussion seems to revolve around Cypher. What are people's current opinion on Cypher and how he can be fixed. He isn't seeing much table these days.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Not to mention that a generic kellermorph pulls a highnoon but cypher is not capable of it.....

Lord Emperor have mercy. Where has this sudden Cypher love come from? Is everyone playing Cypher these days? Is he meta? Is he the Alpha and the Omega? IS HE ALPHARIUS?

Is there a new Horus Heresy novel or something that is exalting him to new heights because I am truly flabbergasted by the strange appreciation of Cypher that is in this thread.

Also, if Cypher has become some weird metric that everything should be judged against I do hope he is squatted because no unit should have that much power over game design and lore. He is truly the worst Gary Stu of them all.

So, since the discussion seems to revolve around Cypher. What are people's current opinion on Cypher and how he can be fixed. He isn't seeing much table these days.

I love how again you are completly and actively trying to ignore any argument that neither fits your narrative nor are actually regarding context.

He is going to get compared to cypher because cypher is the only other gunslinger charachter known.
Not to mention that cypher costs 110pts and this dude, pesky little genestealer, is a cypher on roids that outguns him, out moves him and has the capability to target a charachter unlike cypher......

Also then if we follow your complete and utter lack of scalling bolters now S5 and heavy bolters S6, etc.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Not to mention that a generic kellermorph pulls a highnoon but cypher is not capable of it.....

Lord Emperor have mercy. Where has this sudden Cypher love come from? Is everyone playing Cypher these days? Is he meta? Is he the Alpha and the Omega? IS HE ALPHARIUS?

Is there a new Horus Heresy novel or something that is exalting him to new heights because I am truly flabbergasted by the strange appreciation of Cypher that is in this thread.

Also, if Cypher has become some weird metric that everything should be judged against I do hope he is squatted because no unit should have that much power over game design and lore. He is truly the worst Gary Stu of them all.

So, since the discussion seems to revolve around Cypher. What are people's current opinion on Cypher and how he can be fixed. He isn't seeing much table these days.

Ehm, it's not love. It's called "comparison". When you compare one characters to another.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Cypher

Well, he is THE iconic gunslinger of 40k, so of course people will compare him to the Kelermorph. His current rules may be gak, but at least his weapons have reasonable and believable statlines. The problem is that Cypher should be better than the Kelermorph period. He may be a Gary Stu, but at least he's an established Gary Stu because he is flipping ancient special character presumably carrying around a Primarch's Sword and influencing events on a grand scale.

Also, please stop framing the Kelermorph as some sort of bold exploration of game design and lore when it's clearly not. If the most recent leak is to be believed, this thing is 60 points... GW understandably wants to push the new GSC release, but it looks like they are aiming well above and beyond their target.

Also according to the news and rumor thread, which atm is heating up a kelermorph is 60 pts.








WTF


Ninjaed.

Still 60 pts
Jesus Christ he is literally better then any hq Chaos can field that is non psychic!

Well it is kind of a hard to imagine how a character with a very long back ground of being a master of pistols, as others seem to point out, is worse rules wise then a random mook that is spawned every X spawns in a GSC colony.

Now maybe his fluff says the stub guns are just stub guns, but he fires mind bullets with them. That would solve the argument, at least as far as why he or rather the weapons he has are so good. Now why Cypher is bad, is a mystery to me.


Looks at the cost o GK brotherhood champion... Maybe the weapons cost like 10pts each.

Can I get source on those rumors?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/990/769252.page#10329676

knock yourself out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Spoiler:

 Eldarsif wrote:


So, since the discussion seems to revolve around Cypher. What are people's current opinion on Cypher and how he can be fixed. He isn't seeing much table these days.

Well it is kind of a hard to imagine how a character with a very long back ground of being a master of pistols, as others seem to point out, is worse rules wise then a random mook that is spawned every X spawns in a GSC colony.

Now maybe his fluff says the stub guns are just stub guns, but he fires mind bullets with them. That would solve the argument, at least as far as why he or rather the weapons he has are so good. Now why Cypher is bad, is a mystery to me.


Looks at the cost o GK brotherhood champion... Maybe the weapons cost like 10pts each.

No sofar the pistols seem not to cost anything, and even at 90 pts that is still 20 pts cheaper then cypher for better rules and more Dakka.

well at least he would cost more then a brotherhood champ who has a storm bolter, but I get what you mean. Well looks like he is a solid choice to takes. Also looking at the GSC stuff, kind of a makes sense why CA droped points on so many characters. without those a GK techmarine would cost twice as much as the pistoliero.

Karol wrote:
well at least he would cost more then a brotherhood champ who has a storm bolter, but I get what you mean. Well looks like he is a solid choice to takes. Also looking at the GSC stuff, kind of a makes sense why CA droped points on so many characters. without those a GK techmarine would cost twice as much as the pistoliero.

Do you honestly think you are getting away with lower cost for your brotherhood champion?

Forget it, you have one of those 3+/2+ sv profiles with t4 that get overpriced as soon as they are made.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
I may have imagined it, but I thought GW made some comments about it when the Deepstrike rules changed, saying they would change the table to bring it into line with the new rules. If that's the case I wouldn't start making plans for some of these units until we know more!

They have outright stated that Cult Ambush is being overhauled. I have no idea why people ITT are theorycrafting with the old Cult Ambush rules in mind.

Anyway, to throw my hat into the ring- I don't see him being more then 100 points. GW puts a lot of value into statlines and his is garbage- it's basically the definition of a glass cannon.

And even his damage is just okay. With 12 shots he's averaging 3 wounds on a T4 2+ armor save model. What HQ are people thinking of when imagining this guy popping out of reserves and one-shotting them? I feel like 80% of the time he's going to pop out of reserves, wound an HQ and then die because he's T3 4W. And remember, LoS works both ways.

The true value of the character imo comes from how much his rules control your opponent. Just the threat of his cult ambush modifier and guns will corral them into deploying in a way that you can predict and plan against.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/28/genestealer-cults-rules-preview-part-1/

He can be much harder to kill than expected and maybe the codex can make him even more survivable.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Karol wrote:
well at least he would cost more then a brotherhood champ who has a storm bolter, but I get what you mean. Well looks like he is a solid choice to takes. Also looking at the GSC stuff, kind of a makes sense why CA droped points on so many characters. without those a GK techmarine would cost twice as much as the pistoliero.

Do you honestly think you are getting away with lower cost for your brotherhood champion?

Forget it, you have one of those 3+/2+ sv profiles with t4 that get overpriced as soon as they are made.

Well I am happy with what ever GW gives me. I don't play GSC, but it looks like a solid and fun codex to play with. In the end it is probablly better to have one more good codex, then another why-did-they-print-this book.

I do agree that even if the guns were costed 10pts, he would sitll a mighty fine unit for 90pts.