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alright but I was just responding to what you did say.

I'd say it's risky enough that I'm personally just gonna keep it to Neophytes when I ambush. Personal call though. losing 300+ pts of melee units to a whiff 1 out of every 4 games is not competitive imo, you probably autolose that game. Would you go skydiving if 1 out of 4 parachutes failed?

 SHUPPET wrote:
losing 300+ pts of melee units to a whiff 1 out of every 4 games is not competitive imo, you probably autolose that game. Would you go skydiving if 1 out of 4 parachutes failed?

I would say if you're committed to a gimmick don't go by half measures. Commit to any and all re-roll options available to you, regardless of cost and get that unit in hand to hand. Admittedly, Bloodletters is the medium I'm familiar with using Chaos and I've yet to have to do anything beyond the initial outlay of 3CP and 15 points. On the flip side, having faced GSC *a lot*, I am pretty sure they have options to improve their charge, even without using things like Deliverance Bloodsurge. I have no doubt this strat will show up regularly in tournament lists.

Honestly, 1 in 4 is not that bad, especially the ability to manipulate the number via re-rolls, etc. But it happens, I watched an opponent fail a 6" charge on 3d6", dice are dice.

Also, it's a dice game, not jumping out of an airplane, obviously context dictates risk and the associated gambling.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
losing 300+ pts of melee units to a whiff 1 out of every 4 games is not competitive imo, you probably autolose that game. Would you go skydiving if 1 out of 4 parachutes failed?

I would say if you're committed to a gimmick don't go by half measures. Commit to any and all re-roll options available to you, regardless of cost and get that unit in hand to hand. Admittedly, Bloodletters is the medium I'm familiar with using Chaos and I've yet to have to do anything beyond the initial outlay of 3CP and 15 points. On the flip side, having faced GSC *a lot*, I am pretty sure they have options to improve their charge, even without using things like Deliverance Bloodsurge. I have no doubt this strat will show up regularly in tournament lists.

Honestly, 1 in 4 is not that bad, especially the ability to manipulate the number via re-rolls, etc. But it happens, I watched an opponent fail a 6" charge on 3d6", dice are dice.

Also, it's a dice game, not jumping out of an airplane, obviously context dictates risk and the associated gambling.

You might need to play against them a little more than, as GSC don't have other options than Deliverance Broodsurge to improve their charge.

Delivering Stealers/Aberrants like this seems like something you roll the dice on in a difficult match up that would benefit from that edge, not something you would want to do every game because it will fail once or twice per tournament, and you will almost certainly be very behind if it does.

It depends on the purpose of Cult Ambush in your list.

This would go very well with my core Tyranids list. I don't need to ambush genestealers, i can move them fairly quickly with Kraken.

Terrain also plays a factor. Deep strike charge is less of a risk if you can pop out inside of a building, and attempt to charge through the walls. The nice thing about abilities like ambush is that you can play them as the situation dictates.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Delivering Stealers/Aberrants like this seems like something you roll the dice on in a difficult match up that would benefit from that edge, not something you would want to do every game because it will fail once or twice per tournament, and you will almost certainly be very behind if it does.

Obviously. Against certain armies, ambush is probably pointless.

Of course if the rumors are true, GSC is going to have a lot of charge manipulation abilities, despite the changes to Cult Ambush.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Delivering Stealers/Aberrants like this seems like something you roll the dice on in a difficult match up that would benefit from that edge, not something you would want to do every game because it will fail once or twice per tournament, and you will almost certainly be very behind if it does.

Obviously. Against certain armies, ambush is probably pointless.

Of course if the rumors are true, GSC is going to have a lot of charge manipulation abilities, despite the changes to Cult Ambush.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a bad idea to do most games, only a few match ups that you look at and think "welp I'm probably going to lose if I don't do something crazy here" do you want to be risking a 1/4 chance of flubbing a 300 pt glass cannon outside of the rest of your army right in their face

 SHUPPET wrote:
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a bad idea to do most games, only a few match ups that you look at and think "welp I'm probably going to lose if I don't do something crazy here" do you want to be risking a 1/4 chance of flubbing a 300 pt glass cannon outside of the rest of your army right in their face

Given the leaks from the GSC codex, I suspect your opinion will change, but I'll leave it to we have different interpretations of gambling. Sure, I guess it's a 1/4 chance of failure in a vacuum, but it's not a vacuum and the potential to utterly devastate your opponent on turn 2 (when honestly, other parts of your army should be up there pushing the line) is worth the gamble in my opinion.

I guess you could just play artillery and never have to worry about gambling, or perhaps I've been playing Chaos too long and a 75% chance for blood and glory sounds full of win to me. Quite frankly, I'll take that every time, and the times it doesn't work, well, that will be a short game that I'll quickly move on from.

However, if the GSC rumors are true, I think a 1/4 chance of failure is hyperbole, especially if some of the leaked cult traits are accurate.

I'm noticing a lot of backlash on the 40K FB pages for both the Kelermorph and the codex units so far revealed at large.

Seems the space marine players are quite upset that some of these GSC units can one shot terminators or Intercessors, and that the Alpha's sniper rifle is orders of magnitude greater than the scout sniper rifle.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a bad idea to do most games, only a few match ups that you look at and think "welp I'm probably going to lose if I don't do something crazy here" do you want to be risking a 1/4 chance of flubbing a 300 pt glass cannon outside of the rest of your army right in their face

Given the leaks from the GSC codex, I suspect your opinion will change, but I'll leave it to we have different interpretations of gambling. Sure, I guess it's a 1/4 chance of failure in a vacuum, but it's not a vacuum and the potential to utterly devastate your opponent on turn 2 (when honestly, other parts of your army should be up there pushing the line) is worth the gamble in my opinion.

I guess you could just play artillery and never have to worry about gambling, or perhaps I've been playing Chaos too long and a 75% chance for blood and glory sounds full of win to me. Quite frankly, I'll take that every time, and the times it doesn't work, well, that will be a short game that I'll quickly move on from.

However, if the GSC rumors are true, I think a 1/4 chance of failure is hyperbole, especially if some of the leaked cult traits are accurate.

my opinion is obviously due to change with the release of new rules. Completely irrelevant, I'm talking about the strategy of rules as we knew them when this conversation started.

Your attitude is fine for casuals, but you can't go to a tournament expecting to take first place, with full knowledge that you are going to fail once or two games, that's not competitive. If that's not your goal then it's probably fine. I think neither of us wrong, probably just approaching it with two different mentality.

 Togusa wrote:
I'm noticing a lot of backlash on the 40K FB pages for both the Kelermorph and the codex units so far revealed at large.

Seems the space marine players are quite upset that some of these GSC units can one shot terminators or Intercessors, and that the Alpha's sniper rifle is orders of magnitude greater than the scout sniper rifle.

The alpha is a character. Scouts are not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a bad idea to do most games, only a few match ups that you look at and think "welp I'm probably going to lose if I don't do something crazy here" do you want to be risking a 1/4 chance of flubbing a 300 pt glass cannon outside of the rest of your army right in their face

Given the leaks from the GSC codex, I suspect your opinion will change, but I'll leave it to we have different interpretations of gambling. Sure, I guess it's a 1/4 chance of failure in a vacuum, but it's not a vacuum and the potential to utterly devastate your opponent on turn 2 (when honestly, other parts of your army should be up there pushing the line) is worth the gamble in my opinion.

I guess you could just play artillery and never have to worry about gambling, or perhaps I've been playing Chaos too long and a 75% chance for blood and glory sounds full of win to me. Quite frankly, I'll take that every time, and the times it doesn't work, well, that will be a short game that I'll quickly move on from.

However, if the GSC rumors are true, I think a 1/4 chance of failure is hyperbole, especially if some of the leaked cult traits are accurate.

Yea we're up to +2 to charge at the moment. Add in a CP reroll or some other reroll and you're in pretty good shape.

 Togusa wrote:
I'm noticing a lot of backlash on the 40K FB pages for both the Kelermorph and the codex units so far revealed at large.

Seems the space marine players are quite upset that some of these GSC units can one shot terminators or Intercessors, and that the Alpha's sniper rifle is orders of magnitude greater than the scout sniper rifle.

"People are upset when power creep makes an army that is already weak even weaker".

Truly a shocking revelation.

I play the army and I dislike it too.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I'm noticing a lot of backlash on the 40K FB pages for both the Kelermorph and the codex units so far revealed at large.

Seems the space marine players are quite upset that some of these GSC units can one shot terminators or Intercessors, and that the Alpha's sniper rifle is orders of magnitude greater than the scout sniper rifle.

The alpha is a character. Scouts are not.

Funny, must have forgot all the amazing guns the SM chapter masters can take. Oh, let's see, bolt pistols, bolters, whee, a one whole storm bolter! And they can't even take a melta gun! Or a lascannon to make use of their BS. Not even some broken sniper gak, mind you, just something SM mooks can take. Where is my broken boomstick, again?

Funnily enough, that home made junk rifle is far better than sniper cannon lugged around by primaris. Really, no one would be upset if these stats were on stalker rifle to begin with (which would also rescue it from total irrelevancy as no one takes it now) even if though wouldn't be anywhere near as good given primaris can't rapidly reposition and don't have 2+ BS. Then it would at least feel equal, as of right now, Cawl, supposed genius, can't even make something tenth as good as a weapon cobbled together from junk by random criminals...


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 Insectum7 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Don't admech have 5 shot pistols?

The 5 shot pistol is literally UZI, though, compact machine gun that can be only fired with any accuracy because the wielder literally has steel arms. And as I stated in Kill Team thread, no one would have objected if the Keler Sue could fire six S4 - shots, or even nine S3 - to represent him being amazingly fast with guns. It's the combination of more D2 garbage coupled with AP only found on stuff like heavy bolters and autocannons (even closest frakking DW equivalent is huge, two handed cannon an Astartes has to fire with both hands that still has far worse stats than something this guy cobbled in a cave despite being best SM, Inquisition, and Admech could provide) that rubs the people the wrong way.

Just a refresher, a Plasma Pistol can be S8 AP -3 D2. Humans can dual-wield Plasma Pistols. This guy has three arms.

*eyeroll* I like how you shot your own foot here. First, you really don't see how comical you sound when some random gun cobbled together from junk needs to be compared with insanely advanced energy weapon to not look OP? Because it does when compared to literally everything else, including DW shotguns I mentioned above? Gee, I wonder to what you will compare the sniper gun revealed today to downplay it, to a lascannon? Or better yet, predator autocannon, same thing, eh?

Second, funnily enough, even in the above you failed, because most of the time, plasma pistol bonus to wound will matter much less than Kelly Sue extra shots (and weapon being completely safe) so I am pretty sure that even if he had option to take plasma (which would make him far less ridiculous and more setting-fitting, TBH) most players would still take his guns against good 2/3 of armies in the game. Balance, what's that?

You're really concerned about a single shot sniper rifle? On a model whose points we don't know yet?

Also..Telion isn't a thing?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You're really concerned about a single shot sniper rifle? On a model whose points we don't know yet?

Given that it's fairly emblematic of the situation with the entire GSC codex...yes.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You're really concerned about a single shot sniper rifle? On a model whose points we don't know yet?

Given that it's fairly emblematic of the situation with the entire GSC codex...yes.

The entire codex, which no one has seen yet. We have like 1/8 of that book...if even that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You're really concerned about a single shot sniper rifle? On a model whose points we don't know yet?

Given that it's fairly emblematic of the situation with the entire GSC codex...yes.

The entire codex, which no one has seen yet. We have like 1/8 of that book...if even that.

No one outside the Imperium is allowed nice stuff! Come on now, don't be silly! /s

 Irbis wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I'm noticing a lot of backlash on the 40K FB pages for both the Kelermorph and the codex units so far revealed at large.

Seems the space marine players are quite upset that some of these GSC units can one shot terminators or Intercessors, and that the Alpha's sniper rifle is orders of magnitude greater than the scout sniper rifle.

The alpha is a character. Scouts are not.

Funny, must have forgot all the amazing guns the SM chapter masters can take. Oh, let's see, bolt pistols, bolters, whee, a one whole storm bolter! And they can't even take a melta gun! Or a lascannon to make use of their BS. Not even some broken sniper gak, mind you, just something SM mooks can take. Where is my broken boomstick, again?

Hey, it's time to melt down all those smash captain hammers everyone! The chapter master wants a Sniper Rifle.

To be fair, the Abominant has a better Thunder Hammer too lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SIGNIFICANTLY better at that.

 SHUPPET wrote:
To be fair, the Abominant has a better Thunder Hammer too lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SIGNIFICANTLY better at that.

Do you know his stats and points from t&c?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
To be fair, the Abominant has a better Thunder Hammer too lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SIGNIFICANTLY better at that.

Do you know his stats and points from t&c?

yes

 Irbis wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Don't admech have 5 shot pistols?

The 5 shot pistol is literally UZI, though, compact machine gun that can be only fired with any accuracy because the wielder literally has steel arms. And as I stated in Kill Team thread, no one would have objected if the Keler Sue could fire six S4 - shots, or even nine S3 - to represent him being amazingly fast with guns. It's the combination of more D2 garbage coupled with AP only found on stuff like heavy bolters and autocannons (even closest frakking DW equivalent is huge, two handed cannon an Astartes has to fire with both hands that still has far worse stats than something this guy cobbled in a cave despite being best SM, Inquisition, and Admech could provide) that rubs the people the wrong way.

Just a refresher, a Plasma Pistol can be S8 AP -3 D2. Humans can dual-wield Plasma Pistols. This guy has three arms.

*eyeroll* I like how you shot your own foot here. First, you really don't see how comical you sound when some random gun cobbled together from junk needs to be compared with insanely advanced energy weapon to not look OP? Because it does when compared to literally everything else, including DW shotguns I mentioned above? Gee, I wonder to what you will compare the sniper gun revealed today to downplay it, to a lascannon? Or better yet, predator autocannon, same thing, eh?

Second, funnily enough, even in the above you failed, because most of the time, plasma pistol bonus to wound will matter much less than Kelly Sue extra shots (and weapon being completely safe) so I am pretty sure that even if he had option to take plasma (which would make him far less ridiculous and more setting-fitting, TBH) most players would still take his guns against good 2/3 of armies in the game. Balance, what's that?

"These pistols have stats comparable to a heavy weapon!"
As do plasma pistols.

". . .that Astartes have to fire with two hands"
Plasma pistols can be fired one-handed by humans.

"But it's soo high-tech!"
So high tech that hive gangers can get them. You know. . underground criminal elements. . . like a Genestealer cult.

So already in existence are high-tech, stronger weapons used by regular human criminals. Also in existence are weapons that are much-higher-rate-of-fire autopistols.

So in summary, Liberator Autostubs are less powerful than Plasma Pistols, fewer shots than the Sicarian Flechette Blaster and Stubcarbine pistols, and wielded by a genetically engineered human-genestealer hybrid. Genestealers btw are S4 (marine Strength), have a move of 8" (faster than an Eldar) and back in the day had an Initiative of 6 (as high as an Eldar Exarch, higher than an Imperial Assassin).

Their new Jackal sniper rifle is S4 -2AP d3 damage. The Silencer sniper rifle is S4 AP-1 and D3 damage. Hardly comparable to Lascannons, Chicken Little.

For your viewing pleasure, here is an image of a regular human dual-wielding Plasma Pistols.

I think the mistake people are making again and again is assuming that the Genestealer Cults are some ragtag band of misfits. GSC are well organized(thanks to the hive mind I assume) terrorists that slowly take over whole worlds before a hive fleet comes. This means that they'll often get a lot of high-grade military armaments in the process.

Now, to be fair, the first release was low-key - indicating the start of a cult and I think a lot of people are still stuck on that - but as is evident by the current release they are now focusing on the cult when it has reached critical mass and is a force to be reckoned with.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think the mistake people are making again and again is assuming that the Genestealer Cults are some ragtag band of misfits. GSC are well organized(thanks to the hive mind I assume) terrorists that slowly take over whole worlds before a hive fleet comes. This means that they'll often get a lot of high-grade military armaments in the process.

Now, to be fair, the first release was low-key - indicating the start of a cult and I think a lot of people are still stuck on that - but as is evident by the current release they are now focusing on the cult when it has reached critical mass and is a force to be reckoned with.

Scuse me but how are they connected to "THE Hivemeind"? Also how would you expect that to coordinate them to the point where they get access to better then military grade weaponry?

Secondly: The profile for the autostubs is questionable, end of discussion. (Literally a Daemonweapon for an ascended Chaos Marine profile but times 3.)

Thirdly: The sniperrifle is probably the first time i see a profile for a sniperrifle that would actually be worth it as a special weapon profile overall.

Still, “stub” type pistols have been worst of the worst in-games since Necromunda v1 if not before. A D2 stub pistol that’s better than a Bolter is why I raised an eyebrow, not simply that a character had a good weapon. Internal logic fail on GW’s part. They could have given him “mining blast pistols” and I wouldn’t have cared, but “stub”-anything should be fairly poop.

Background wise, it does suit the GSC, as they are about disrupting the enemy then taking them apart piecemeal.

And I'm very interested to see the impact they have on the wider approach to army building. Could we see less reliance on super hero characters?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Still, “stub” type pistols have been worst of the worst in-games since Necromunda v1 if not before. A D2 stub pistol that’s better than a Bolter is why I raised an eyebrow, not simply that a character had a good weapon. Internal logic fail on GW’s part. They could have given him “mining blast pistols” and I wouldn’t have cared, but “stub”-anything should be fairly poop.

A special pattern autopistol would've not been bad as a name. (Autoguns are performing like lasguns, upgunned lasguns exist, upgunned autoguns exist.)

Technically there are also normal stub pistols in the game, which have 6" range compared to the 12" of an autopistol, which makes this even stranger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Background wise, it does suit the GSC, as they are about disrupting the enemy then taking them apart piecemeal.

And I'm very interested to see the impact they have on the wider approach to army building. Could we see less reliance on super hero characters?

Probably, if the cult becomes a threat to them.

However Knights skew the meta torwards superhero charachters / heavy dakka by virtue of existing.

If they have enough impact, horde lists that are more durable comparatively to assasinations become probably more liked, i guess.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Thirdly: The sniperrifle is probably the first time i see a profile for a sniperrifle that would actually be worth it as a special weapon profile overall.

The Admech sniper rifles, the transuranic arquebus, are still far scarier than that one. Sure those can't move and fire at all but the profile itself is pretty tasty.
Heavy 1 60" S7 AP-2 Damage d3 Any wound roll of 6+ causes an additional mortal wound

PiñaColada wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Thirdly: The sniperrifle is probably the first time i see a profile for a sniperrifle that would actually be worth it as a special weapon profile overall.

The Admech sniper rifles, the transuranic arquebus, are still far scarier than that one. Sure those can't move and fire at all but the profile itself is pretty tasty.
Heavy 1 60" S7 AP-2 Damage d3 Any wound roll of 6+ causes an additional mortal wound

I always regarded that one as more of a Anti-material-rifle /Panzerbüchse. (AT rifle)

It can target charachters right?

 Eldarsif wrote:
I think the mistake people are making again and again is assuming that the Genestealer Cults are some ragtag band of misfits. GSC are well organized(thanks to the hive mind I assume) terrorists that slowly take over whole worlds before a hive fleet comes. This means that they'll often get a lot of high-grade military armaments in the process.

Now, to be fair, the first release was low-key - indicating the start of a cult and I think a lot of people are still stuck on that - but as is evident by the current release they are now focusing on the cult when it has reached critical mass and is a force to be reckoned with.

even if any of this was true, it's immediately countered by the fact that the weaponry shown here blows away that of the high grade military. Even SM weapons aren't really measuring up.