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With the full 12 shots, he deals 5 unsaved wounds to standard 3+svMEQhqs or 9 wounds to standard Guard HQs (who tend to have a 5++, I guess this also holds true for Tau and Eldar and stuff who usually have 4+ armor and T3).
So, I'm not sure how he's wiping 1-4 HQs. Looks more like 1, MAYBE 2 if your opponent positions them pretty poorly, and in that instance they'd better be cheapo guys with low defenses.
He's a suicide bomb who can reliably make his points back if you dump CPs into him. In his "amazing success" use case, I can see him dropping a 120-ish point HQ for his 60 points. Seems less amazing than what happens if I, say, dump 5CP into a space marine captain with a thunder hammer...
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Insectum7 wrote: So is 3 Smash Captains, which is a pretty heavy precedent.
Agreed. At the same time, if GSC goes with the 0-1 limitation on all the characters as rumored, that is an unprecedented handicap, one that I think is interesting and flavorful, it also puts some of these characters in perspective since they won't end up getting spammed.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
the_scotsman wrote: With the full 12 shots, he deals 5 unsaved wounds to standard 3+svMEQhqs or 9 wounds to standard Guard HQs (who tend to have a 5++, I guess this also holds true for Tau and Eldar and stuff who usually have 4+ armor and T3).
So, I'm not sure how he's wiping 1-4 HQs. Looks more like 1, MAYBE 2 if your opponent positions them pretty poorly, and in that instance they'd better be cheapo guys with low defenses.
He's a suicide bomb who can reliably make his points back if you dump CPs into him. In his "amazing success" use case, I can see him dropping a 120-ish point HQ for his 60 points. Seems less amazing than what happens if I, say, dump 5CP into a space marine captain with a thunder hammer...
With 5 CP he deals 10 unsaved to MEQ and 16 to 5++ GEQ. That's 2 marine HQs or 4 company commanders. Obviously not all will be in range. A simple 2 CP spend will be enough to get him 3" away and a chance to blast away. Now add two more of those for less points than 1.5 smash captains.
60 points killing 120 is a far larger actual net return when that HQ was giving rerolls to the army. HQs like Ahriman are pretty crucial and not often dead by turn 2.
I'm not trying to convey panic at this time, but this guy DOES have a real potential to be busted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/31 20:53:19
JNAProductions wrote: Except he has three guns. That’s three targets max-he can never kill four characters unless they’re all within 12” immediately upon deep striking.
The point still stands. (Potentially) 3 dead company commanders or 1 dead marine HQ for 60 points and 2 CP is not really a reasonable trade, in my opinion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/31 21:02:33
Wow the doom and gloom over this is funny. It looks to me like a character that can really punish bad positioning (is that a bad thing?) and might force some armies like guard to spend points on transports or a bodyguard for characters (again is this bad?). I mean how is this any worse then a smash captain dropping in and crushing a knight?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/31 21:11:13
You do realise that not every army has 4pts per model troops?
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
1) We have no idea their save is a 4+, we also have no reason to think so. One poster in the news post said "I assume their save will be a 4+" despite the fact that they're based on models with a 5+ save (neophytes.)
2) We know what their weapon list is. It doesn't make them that killy. If they are indeed based on the neophyte statline (probable) they will have S3, A1, WS/BS 4+. They have the option to take either a standard power weapon or some kind of "power hammer" on their sgt, and the choice of bolt pistols, autopistols, autoguns, and shotguns on the basic bikers. 1 in 4 can have a standard guard grenade launcher, the second-least powerful special weapon available to guardsmen. The only thing that can get a potent weapon upgrade is the quad, which basically can have a heavy flamer, unless you really feel like putting a 24" range half-damage lascannon on a unit that has mostly melee equipment. Nobz are WS3+, S5, A5 with a double choppa. These guys are a guardsman with a chainsword. Of course nobz cost more.
3) you saying that the ridgerunner is 50pts is totally disingenuous. The ork buggies come standard with all their wargear. With its standard wargear, we know the ridgerunner is 84pts, not 50 (leaker forgot heavy stubbers cost 2). Since Guard MLs are 15 I suppose it could be 74 with that? I'm haivng a problem coming up with one of the ork buggies that isn't the garbage squigbuggy that does less damage than a single missile launcher/24" range lascannon at BS4+. As an example, compare the damage of the ridgerunner vs the shokkjump: 0.5 lascannon hits, 3 S4 Ap- stubber hits stationary, 0.33 and 2 on the move, vs 1.33 S8 lascannon hits, 0.33 rokkit hits that don't care if it's moving or not. Really confused by what you mean by "greater flexibility" when all its weapons are Heavy and it does nothing in melee vs the ork buggies that can move and shoot and usually deal at least passable damage in melee.
1. Someone posted their save was 4+..... Its a safe bet.
2. You might have missed that I was comparing the two units durability and speed. Choppa Nobs deal 0 damage if they cannot strike their target in melee which means those 5 str 5 AP0 attacks are utterly meaningless. We'll see how killy they are when they have +1 to hit for every ranged attack all the time. We already know under cost durable units are a problem ala infantry. These bikers look to be exactly that.
3. The Ork buggies vary in cost from 100pts to 140pts, note that they are both significantly more than 74 or 84 pts. You keep comparing damage and completely ignoring durability which is like viewing only the ground floor of a house before purchase. What I mean by greater flexibility is that they actually have weapon options and choices, unlike the Ork buggies that are set and have 0 weapon options. Your attempt to justify the melee profile of the Ork buggies is laughable. They are shooting platforms that have no place there.
Well, Smash Captain is a meme for a reason. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Yes and popping out and killing a character (maybe 2 with really bad positioning and no points spent on transports/bodyguard units) is so far away from coming in and soloing a knight it's unreal yet we have a 15 page thread proclaiming this is an end times level event for 40k
Pretty sure the jackals will be 5+ save? The alphus has a 5+ and they're unlikely to be better than their equivalent.
I seriously don't get the point of moaning about how strong any given codex will be before it's released and some games have been played. Maybe these options will work ok together and they'll become a top tier army. maybe they'll be a bit underwhelming. Can't really say until tournaments have happened and games have been played
Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights
Secret footage of GW introducing the GSC codex to the 40k community.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
JNAProductions wrote: Screen better. Guard of all people should not have issues with that.
This is not a valid defense. Here - I drew a janky picture for you.
Red circle is KM. Blue circles are screen. Green line is the 3" distance between screen and KM. Purple circle is the effective range of KM guns. Yellow circle is the HQ and the black line it's tremendously effective aura or command range.
Spoiler:
Asmodios wrote: Wow the doom and gloom over this is funny. It looks to me like a character that can really punish bad positioning (is that a bad thing?) and might force some armies like guard to spend points on transports or a bodyguard for characters (again is this bad?). I mean how is this any worse then a smash captain dropping in and crushing a knight?
A knight is expected to be targetable. Now, I agree forcing people to take body guards is great. Marines and heretics don't really have those though. Also IG can command from a transport. Marines cannot.
Well, Smash Captain is a meme for a reason. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Yes and popping out and killing a character (maybe 2 with really bad positioning and no points spent on transports/bodyguard units) is so far away from coming in and soloing a knight it's unreal yet we have a 15 page thread proclaiming this is an end times level event for 40k
I'm not claiming end times, but I really think you're overselling bad positioning.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoomMouse wrote: Pretty sure the jackals will be 5+ save? The alphus has a 5+ and they're unlikely to be better than their equivalent.
I think people are expecting them to be Rusted Claw, which is +1 save vs AP0/-1.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/01/31 21:44:38
Smash captain still has to make his charge roll. He can't jump over screens the same way bullets can. He costs twice as much. The BA version only really works for one of them. The army struggles for CP. They eat up an entire detachment on their own. They are a lone good unit in an entire army of terrible units. They don't one round a knight. I could keep going.
This guy pops up, shoots twice and kills whatever characters he wants to. Then you get to do it two more times. Unless you are playing a static castle, screening out 12" (or 3" which is basically impossible) thru turn 3 will cause some major movement issues and really restrict what you can do (basically prevents engaging in melee with any characters you want to live).
A lot of people trying to down play the doom and gloom are the same ones saying shining spears weren't too bad, that reapers were fine or that marines were not going to be a bottom codex.
From the leaks we are seeing this dex is OP as feth (yanarri level). Great strats, lots of cp, crazy deployment options, best snipers in the game, great psychic powers, ability to ally in some of the best shooting in the game, great CQC, broken combos, they have it all. It's like some of the best players in the world were saying this is going to be a good dex and it is.
I'm only bothered because it doesn't bode well for GW lowering the power level on some of the outlier units/armies if this is what they think balanced is. I find it hard to fall into the "GW is trying to sell new models" because the rules for the new ork stuff and the primaris weren't really good so I just don't get it. Maybe this means the yanarri soup power level is where GW want their game and they just undertuned everything else until they got all the dexes out and now that everyone has all their toys their really start ramping things up in earnest (which is terrible because this edition is already too killy for my liking.)
JNAProductions wrote: Screen better. Guard of all people should not have issues with that.
This is not a valid defense. Here - I drew a janky picture for you.
Red circle is KM. Blue circles are screen. Green line is the 3" distance between screen and KM. Purple circle is the effective range of KM guns. Yellow circle is the HQ and the black line it's tremendously effective aura or command range.
[spoiler][spoiler]
Asmodios wrote: Wow the doom and gloom over this is funny. It looks to me like a character that can really punish bad positioning (is that a bad thing?) and might force some armies like guard to spend points on transports or a bodyguard for characters (again is this bad?). I mean how is this any worse then a smash captain dropping in and crushing a knight?
A knight is expected to be targetable. Now, I agree forcing people to take body guards is great. Marines and heretics don't really have those though. Also IG can command from a transport. Marines cannot.
Well, Smash Captain is a meme for a reason. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Yes and popping out and killing a character (maybe 2 with really bad positioning and no points spent on transports/bodyguard units) is so far away from coming in and soloing a knight it's unreal yet we have a 15 page thread proclaiming this is an end times level event for 40k
I'm not claiming end times, but I really think you're overselling bad positioning.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoomMouse wrote: Pretty sure the jackals will be 5+ save? The alphus has a 5+ and they're unlikely to be better than their equivalent.
I think people are expecting them to be Rusted Claw, which is +1 save vs AP0/-1.
Not everyone has a bodyguard but is there a single codex that doesn't have a transport you can pop most characters into? I mean my primary army is guard and im working on SM and Necrons currently and im not overly concerned. I just think its a bit soon for 15 page threads claiming this is going to be broken (kinda like the 12 basalisk list threads after the rule of 3).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/31 21:58:26
Not everyone has a bodyguard but is there a single codex that doesn't have a transport you can pop most characters into?
Well the GK ones need a storm raven or a land raider, that is a lot of points.
Smash captain still has to make his charge roll. He can't jump over screens the same way bullets can. He costs twice as much. The BA version only really works for one of them. The army struggles for CP. They eat up an entire detachment on their own. They are a lone good unit in an entire army of terrible units. They don't one round a knight. I could keep going.
Also with vect in two armies, casting wings is going to be much harder.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/31 22:01:31
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
bananathug wrote: Smash captain still has to make his charge roll. He can't jump over screens the same way bullets can. He costs twice as much. The BA version only really works for one of them. The army struggles for CP. They eat up an entire detachment on their own. They are a lone good unit in an entire army of terrible units. They don't one round a knight. I could keep going.
This guy pops up, shoots twice and kills whatever characters he wants to. Then you get to do it two more times. Unless you are playing a static castle, screening out 12" (or 3" which is basically impossible) thru turn 3 will cause some major movement issues and really restrict what you can do (basically prevents engaging in melee with any characters you want to live).
A lot of people trying to down play the doom and gloom are the same ones saying shining spears weren't too bad, that reapers were fine or that marines were not going to be a bottom codex.
From the leaks we are seeing this dex is OP as feth (yanarri level). Great strats, lots of cp, crazy deployment options, best snipers in the game, great psychic powers, ability to ally in some of the best shooting in the game, great CQC, broken combos, they have it all. It's like some of the best players in the world were saying this is going to be a good dex and it is.
I'm only bothered because it doesn't bode well for GW lowering the power level on some of the outlier units/armies if this is what they think balanced is. I find it hard to fall into the "GW is trying to sell new models" because the rules for the new ork stuff and the primaris weren't really good so I just don't get it. Maybe this means the yanarri soup power level is where GW want their game and they just undertuned everything else until they got all the dexes out and now that everyone has all their toys their really start ramping things up in earnest (which is terrible because this edition is already too killy for my liking.)
yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
Again how many Bodyguard units exist that are actually worth it.
Chaos has over the whole faction 1 bodyguard unit.
1, a faction that atm is only kept relevant thanks to charachters.
Imperium has more, some ogryns, some primaris, etc. But the pts there are generally not worth it.
Tau won't really mind him since shielddrones exist.
Tyranids have only for hivetyrants bodyguard.
Also most charachters don't work within a Tank.
And even IG has to spend cp to work inside of a Tank.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/31 22:20:28
Asmodios wrote: yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
People are deeply concerned about GSC invalidating the fish barrel deployment scheme given that GSC has been given a fish barrel shooting specialist.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
Again how many Bodyguard units exist that are actually worth it.
Chaos has over the whole faction 1 bodyguard unit.
1, a faction that atm is only kept relevant thanks to charachters.
Imperium has more, some ogryns, some primaris, etc. But the pts there are generally not worth it.
Tau won't really mind him since shielddrones exist.
Tyranids have only for hivetyrants bodyguard.
Also most charachters don't work within a Tank.
And even IG has to spend cp to work outside of a Tank.
Yeah, I think the nids will mostly be relying on the fact that a hive tyrant Takes like 5 damage from this dude if he spends his whole 5cp wad on trying to shoot them.
Eldar, all marines, admech, and Tau also all have strats that blow this dude to smithereens when he deep strikes in, after he spends his CP. So your opponent has a choice to either spend another 3 (if he's the right sibfaction) or let him die.
I wonder what other units damage output is like for 8cp?
Asmodios wrote: yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
People are deeply concerned about GSC invalidating the fish barrel deployment scheme given that GSC has been given a fish barrel shooting specialist.
True aswell, bubbles like abbadon and the endless conga line of cultists were and still are annoying.
My question however is how is a trade between a daemonprince/sorcerer / Tau commander without drones fair compared to a 60ppm fire and forget Modell that even can nearly get his points back by wiping chaff units?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
yeah I mean if you stand three characters next to each other while playing against this guy with no bodyguard unit or putting them into a transport your gonna have a bad time.... i think thats kind of a good thing
Again how many Bodyguard units exist that are actually worth it.
Chaos has over the whole faction 1 bodyguard unit.
1, a faction that atm is only kept relevant thanks to charachters.
Imperium has more, some ogryns, some primaris, etc. But the pts there are generally not worth it.
Tau won't really mind him since shielddrones exist.
Tyranids have only for hivetyrants bodyguard.
Also most charachters don't work within a Tank.
And even IG has to spend cp to work inside of a Tank.
At least Orks have Grot shields, its not like they can Agent of Ve....oh. My. God.
Yeah, I think the nids will mostly be relying on the fact that a hive tyrant Takes like 5 damage from this dude if he spends his whole 5cp wad on trying to shoot them.
Eldar, all marines, admech, and Tau also all have strats that blow this dude to smithereens when he deep strikes in, after he spends his CP. So your opponent has a choice to either spend another 3 (if he's the right sibfaction) or let him die.
I wonder what other units damage output is like for 8cp?
You won't find a unit for 60pts that does equal ammount of damage with or without cp.
Close comes smashcaptain as said before but even he is tripple digit and we all know how well he is liked.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the Bright side, your commisars are now unemployed as are my enforcers, since this dude can blam 3X as many cowards as any of them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/31 22:28:47
Don't panic Imperium kids, your updated assassins are coming to fix everything in March. Probably won't even take up a slot in your detachment. Mama GW would never let you languish too long without fresh soup.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
And how exactly is abbadon the harmless supposed to scream at his men to increase their accuracy, don't dare to run away and tie their fething shoes?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: And how exactly is abbadon the harmless supposed to scream at his men to increase their accuracy, don't dare to run away and tie their fething shoes?
Wait, I wasn't following entirely, are you suggesting, honestly, that the Kelermorph is going to take out Abaddon? Just clarifying before I laugh hysterically.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
1000pts Space Marines 
1200pts Tau 
2500pts Blood Angels 
3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades 
and 1700pts Daemons 
450pts Imperial Knights 
