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We should spend more time comparing a character model with not only the rule of three, but the gsc rule that you can't have more than one of a character datasheet in a detachment that costs 80 pts, to a 15 pt troop model.

 kastelen wrote:
The Alphus also has more wounds, is faster, can buff others and is harder to hit.

That alphus does not have 7 wounds. Or 3+ armor. If you're moving with a sniper rifle it's not hitting on 2s.


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blaktoof wrote:
but the gsc rule that you can't have more than one of a character datasheet in a detachment

Is this a thing in the codex? I didn't catch that one in the leaks.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
but the gsc rule that you can't have more than one of a character datasheet in a detachment

Is this a thing in the codex? I didn't catch that one in the leaks.

quoting for emphasis, is there something ive missed here?

Supposedly all gsc characters are 1 per detachment in matches play

Imo the sniper alpha will be bad like most character snipers because there is far too high a chance of doing nothing in a turn and you wont kill anything when luck smiles on you anyway.

The Keller though should be spammed because at 60 points its cost effective versus Guardsmen nevermind anything else. Thats before you try chasing characters or buffing units.

last guy just said it was 80 pts, now its 60 pts. Is there a link to the points cost that either of you are referencing?

Tyel wrote:
Imo the sniper alpha will be bad like most character snipers because there is far too high a chance of doing nothing in a turn and you wont kill anything when luck smiles on you anyway.

The Keller though should be spammed because at 60 points its cost effective versus Guardsmen nevermind anything else. Thats before you try chasing characters or buffing units.

The sniper biker will be used for its buff more than direct damage. Its buff is really strong!

 SHUPPET wrote:
last guy just said it was 80 pts, now its 60 pts. Is there a link to the points cost that either of you are referencing?

Just what someone leaked in the News part of the forum. Sniper 80 points, Keller 60. They could be wrong but they got the Chapter Tactics and Vect right before Warhamner Community published their article.

Tyel wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
last guy just said it was 80 pts, now its 60 pts. Is there a link to the points cost that either of you are referencing?

Just what someone leaked in the News part of the forum. Sniper 80 points, Keller 60. They could be wrong but they got the Chapter Tactics and Vect right before Warhamner Community published their article.

We also don't know if this includes wargear. The Autostubs could be an extra 10pts each for a total of 90. Or he might just be 60.

So the aflus cost be rised by the cost of the bike and weapon too. Though right now we don't know how much GW thinks a GSC bike cost. May as well be something silly like 10pts.

Karol wrote:
So the aflus cost be rised by the cost of the bike and weapon too. Though right now we don't know how much GW thinks a GSC bike cost. May as well be something silly like 10pts.

I doubt it pays for the bike separately.

We generally only see that where a bike is optional, and as far as we are aware the only units in GSC that can take a bike MUST be on a bike.

It's possible, just seems unlikely to me.

So, just to be clear the situation we're looking at here...

We are assuming that your opponent deepstrikes keller at you. Meaning you have at least one turn to set up some kind of defense/plan on him coming in. We are also assuming that your opponent selects his subfaction in order to get access to the vect strat.

Then we're assuming he's happy to DS this character in, spend 5CP to bypass your screen and shoot twice, then spend another 3CP to stop you from just servo-skull/scryerskull/forewarnig, or that you don't have any early warning overrides/deathmarks/any other unit or ability that isn't a stratagem that reacts by just murdering his little face off.

Do you have anything you can put on your character that MUST stay alive to allow them to do that? Lets take the example of Ahriman with a disc that was talked about. Take his warlord trait, now he has a 3++. The turn before keller comes in, you know he'll be gunning for Ahriman (because, uh...well, this is awkward, but...he definitely can't kill a demon prince) so you put Glamour of Tzeentch on him and make him -1 to hit.

Keller does 3 damage. Having spent 5CP, MINIMUM. Just for the tiniest bit of "hmm, maybe I should have a brain instead of reacting with indignance and crying for nerfs when my opponent can take something in his army that requires me to change my gameplan the tiniest bit". If I'm playing against Eldar, and my opponent is using any kind of a competitive list, my characters out in the open are probably tanking 15 ranger sniper rifles and a reaper launcher every turn, I have to counterplay far more against that than this little one trick pony who hoovers up a third of my opponent's CP before falling flat on his face.

Let's say now I'm playing Grey Knights, the worst army ever. I take my HQs and I put them in Terminator Armor, and that right there makes Keller not able to kill them (4.3 damage on average, IIRC characters in terminator armor have 5 or 6 wounds). But what if I have a character I want him to kill even less? I'll put the ol' curiass of sacrifice on him. Now Keller doesn't even half-health them on average rolls. You know, this is also assuming that I lose my mind and don't just use Heed the Prognosticars on the guy I think Keller is going to target. But if my opponent has an extra 6CP to burn to block that and servo-skull then yeah, I guess I'd use the Curiass to be extra-safe.

Realistically, a competitively built GSC list is going to have a lot of CP, but not so much that me expending a relic or a warlord trait isn't worth my opponent blowing through 5+CP just to fail to kill something with this character.

This makes me wonder if the Vindicare assassin didn't exist and the GSC got access to him and maybe a shoot-twice strat, would people react the same way, as if he's always going to double tap your characters for 2D6 damage and he'll somehow invalidate the existence of all aura buffers ever?

You will always have to vary your style depending on who you fight. That GSC is going to have some new tricks does not invalidate everything you've done, but still requires you to put in a little work on how to play. Some of the concerns here do sound like each and every player is going to be playing GSC except for the one who is voicing their concerns. Almost as if the gunslinger is going to be faced in every single game from now on, even if the opponent happens to be playing Grey Knights.

I am just looking forward to seeing how this plays out. Whether GSC is going to be the meta-devourer people are claiming them to be or if they are just going to be an army that few care about after a few months. Either way, I am definitely going to build that Mad Max army.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
but the gsc rule that you can't have more than one of a character datasheet in a detachment

Is this a thing in the codex? I didn't catch that one in the leaks.

quoting for emphasis, is there something ive missed here?

There have been two leaked matched play rules:

1. "Gene Sect" No more than one of each character datasheet per detachment.

2. "Brood Father" If you have a patriarch it must be your warlord

the_scotsman wrote:
So, just to be clear the situation we're looking at here...

We are assuming that your opponent deepstrikes keller at you. Meaning you have at least one turn to set up some kind of defense/plan on him coming in. We are also assuming that your opponent selects his subfaction in order to get access to the vect strat.

Then we're assuming he's happy to DS this character in, spend 5CP to bypass your screen and shoot twice, then spend another 3CP to stop you from just servo-skull/scryerskull/forewarnig, or that you don't have any early warning overrides/deathmarks/any other unit or ability that isn't a stratagem that reacts by just murdering his little face off.

Do you have anything you can put on your character that MUST stay alive to allow them to do that? Lets take the example of Ahriman with a disc that was talked about. Take his warlord trait, now he has a 3++. The turn before keller comes in, you know he'll be gunning for Ahriman (because, uh...well, this is awkward, but...he definitely can't kill a demon prince) so you put Glamour of Tzeentch on him and make him -1 to hit.

Keller does 3 damage. Having spent 5CP, MINIMUM. Just for the tiniest bit of "hmm, maybe I should have a brain instead of reacting with indignance and crying for nerfs when my opponent can take something in his army that requires me to change my gameplan the tiniest bit". If I'm playing against Eldar, and my opponent is using any kind of a competitive list, my characters out in the open are probably tanking 15 ranger sniper rifles and a reaper launcher every turn, I have to counterplay far more against that than this little one trick pony who hoovers up a third of my opponent's CP before falling flat on his face.

Let's say now I'm playing Grey Knights, the worst army ever. I take my HQs and I put them in Terminator Armor, and that right there makes Keller not able to kill them (4.3 damage on average, IIRC characters in terminator armor have 5 or 6 wounds). But what if I have a character I want him to kill even less? I'll put the ol' curiass of sacrifice on him. Now Keller doesn't even half-health them on average rolls. You know, this is also assuming that I lose my mind and don't just use Heed the Prognosticars on the guy I think Keller is going to target. But if my opponent has an extra 6CP to burn to block that and servo-skull then yeah, I guess I'd use the Curiass to be extra-safe.

Realistically, a competitively built GSC list is going to have a lot of CP, but not so much that me expending a relic or a warlord trait isn't worth my opponent blowing through 5+CP just to fail to kill something with this character.

This makes me wonder if the Vindicare assassin didn't exist and the GSC got access to him and maybe a shoot-twice strat, would people react the same way, as if he's always going to double tap your characters for 2D6 damage and he'll somehow invalidate the existence of all aura buffers ever?

You're arguing in bad faith here.

- Chaos lacks any sort of deepstrike interruption.
- KM does 3 damage, but I'm forced to make Ahriman the WL and lose out on every other WL trait - also 3 getting through means 2 actually go through often, which is 4 damage and that means any perils will immediately explode him
- I have to sacrifice Glamour, which is normally better served on a vehicle
- I'm not crying for nerfs
- I think the change in dynamics is good for the game
- He doesn't need to spend 5CP to off most things
- Vindicare requires its own detachment
- Vindicares do not automatically do D6 damage. 1 * .833 * .666 * .833 * 2 = 0.92 damage; 1 out of every 6 wounds will do 1.6 damage.
- So, 0.9 to 1.6 damage for 80 points or 3 damage and 2 CP for 60 points.
- People absolutely would spam them if they had a double shot strat and if they didn't require 3 auxiliaries to take 3.

"People absolutely would spam them if they had a double shot strat and if they didn't require 3 auxiliaries to take 3. "

FYI, you can take 3 in a Vanguard with no HQ, they have a special rule for that.

Vibdicare is an index unit, somewhat not relevant to discuss index units versus codex units.

It's like Calli g for thousand aons nerfs because the codex thousand aons are better than the index units.

Maybe in the next few months when the new assassin rules are supposed to be out we can recompare.

Oh no, my opponent has countered with Buzzword! What shall I do - will I be accused of Logical Fallacy next? How about Straw Man? the buzzword, it burns, I'm melting, oh what a world, what a world...

I kid.

My overall point here is not that you, with your chaos army that is specifically Thousand Sons is always going to have access to every counter-tactic (putting psychic powers on your character, using a deep strike interrupt ability, putting relics or warlord traits on your character to keep them alive, having your character duck into a transport to survive, etc) I am merely pointing out that a huge plethora of those counter-strategies DO EXIST.

The only reason i bring up Ahriman at all is that you mentioned him as if he had no options to deal with a kellermorph assassination attempt. Sure, if you take the WL trait on him and give him -1 to hit with glamour you're not using your resources 100% optimally. You're using them to counter a specific move your opponent is making that is burning an extremely significant chunk of their CP to even attempt.

The reason I don't think Keller is going to really smash the established meta is because when you're using your brain, in most common TAC list situations I can counter him by spending fewer resources than he costs, without altering my list to deal with the possibility of him showing up.

That's different from what it takes to counter a smash captain, or a raven castellan, or Ynnari with doom, or any of the current fixtures of the competitive meta. I can't deal with a Raven Castellan just by allocating my WL trait, Relics, Psychic powers and/or CPs differently and keeping my list the same. If I want to be successful against that, I need to change my list to be ready for it, and THAT'S what makes it a meta-changer. If Keller shows up and gets a 2x or 3x points trade without having to spend 5+CP, it's my fault that he got away with that. If I force him to spend 8CP on getting close enough to bypass my screen then Vecting my interrupt stratagem, and then he successfully makes a 2x points trade, I'll take that. My opponent probably spent at least a third of their CP on that.

I can do far more to make Keller less effective or entirely unsuccessful than I can to make any of the common "deep strike and spend a bunch of CP" or "Gunline up and spend a bunch of CP" shooting units currently kicking around the meta. People are just losing their minds over him because he's arguably the first character assassin since the deep strike charge nerf that doesn't have absolutely astronomical odds against actually returning his points in a reliable manner.

Side note on your last point: You don't require 3 auxiliaries to take 3 assassins. You can take three in a vanguard detachment using the "Execution force" rules. People don't not take assassins because they are awkward to soup in, they don't take them because they are far too simple to "solve" for an opponent to ever be worthwhile investments.

 SHUPPET wrote:
quoting for emphasis, is there something ive missed here?

Yes, the unconfirmed rumor (and color me surprised this wasn't in the thread, it really should have been mentioned long ago) is that all the GSC characters have a 0-1 detachment limit.

the_scotsman wrote:
Oh no, my opponent has countered with Buzzword! What shall I do - will I be accused of Logical Fallacy next? How about Straw Man? the buzzword, it burns, I'm melting, oh what a world, what a world...

I kid.

My overall point here is not that you, with your chaos army that is specifically Thousand Sons is always going to have access to every counter-tactic (putting psychic powers on your character, using a deep strike interrupt ability, putting relics or warlord traits on your character to keep them alive, having your character duck into a transport to survive, etc) I am merely pointing out that a huge plethora of those counter-strategies DO EXIST.

The only reason i bring up Ahriman at all is that you mentioned him as if he had no options to deal with a kellermorph assassination attempt. Sure, if you take the WL trait on him and give him -1 to hit with glamour you're not using your resources 100% optimally. You're using them to counter a specific move your opponent is making that is burning an extremely significant chunk of their CP to even attempt.

The reason I don't think Keller is going to really smash the established meta is because when you're using your brain, in most common TAC list situations I can counter him by spending fewer resources than he costs, without altering my list to deal with the possibility of him showing up.

That's different from what it takes to counter a smash captain, or a raven castellan, or Ynnari with doom, or any of the current fixtures of the competitive meta. I can't deal with a Raven Castellan just by allocating my WL trait, Relics, Psychic powers and/or CPs differently and keeping my list the same. If I want to be successful against that, I need to change my list to be ready for it, and THAT'S what makes it a meta-changer. If Keller shows up and gets a 2x or 3x points trade without having to spend 5+CP, it's my fault that he got away with that. If I force him to spend 8CP on getting close enough to bypass my screen then Vecting my interrupt stratagem, and then he successfully makes a 2x points trade, I'll take that. My opponent probably spent at least a third of their CP on that.

I can do far more to make Keller less effective or entirely unsuccessful than I can to make any of the common "deep strike and spend a bunch of CP" or "Gunline up and spend a bunch of CP" shooting units currently kicking around the meta. People are just losing their minds over him because he's arguably the first character assassin since the deep strike charge nerf that doesn't have absolutely astronomical odds against actually returning his points in a reliable manner.

Side note on your last point: You don't require 3 auxiliaries to take 3 assassins. You can take three in a vanguard detachment using the "Execution force" rules. People don't not take assassins because they are awkward to soup in, they don't take them because they are far too simple to "solve" for an opponent to ever be worthwhile investments.

Alright, I concede to these points, but I'm not terribly confident about this part yet:

I can counter him by spending fewer resources than he costs

If the 1 per detachment rule is in effect I think it will be fairly blunted anyway.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
- Chaos lacks any sort of deepstrike interruption.

Yes, but this has been the case through every codex that came out and enhanced deep strike for various factions. Then GW gutted deep strike and this sucked less.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
- KM does 3 damage, but I'm forced to make Ahriman the WL and lose out on every other WL trait - also 3 getting through means 2 actually go through often, which is 4 damage and that means any perils will immediately explode him

The comedy here is that it's not the Kelermorph you need to worry about, it's the Sanctus, and still, Ahriman has a decent chance of surviving. Or you lead with your DPs and Ahriman hides and buffs, which is generally his preferred role anyways. Leading the charge with Ahriman is...strange.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
- He doesn't need to spend 5CP to off most things

- But he does have to get within 12", I guess I just play against GSC a lot and am used to creating a deep strike bubble. Which can be done without conga lines of cultists. Tactical placement of vehicles, terrain, small units, any number of things can easily force him to drop outside of 12" from something you care about.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
- Vindicare requires its own detachment

- For now, I think it's very likely Assassins will exist outside of the detachment structure.

I think this character and the Sanctus are interesting, they will definitely require some planning and forethought to prepare for them, but they are simply not the table flipping force some people think they will be.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Leading the charge with Ahriman is...strange.

Poor choice of words. I have need of several spells to push the front (Spawn / Defiler). The rerolls don't hurt, either.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Poor choice of words. I have need of several spells to push the front (Spawn / Defiler). The rerolls don't hurt, either.

Differences of implementation, to each his own, also, I didn't call it bad, just...strange. Anyhow, it's decidedly off-topic for the thread. I tend to use DPs for that purpose.

The issue is risk versus reward.

If he's at 60 points he doesn't need to kill Ahriman - or a jetbike seer every turn. He can happily shoot infantry, and if he gets into position to gun down a character even better.

Also feel 0-1 per detachment isn't really an issue when you can easily make cheap detachments and he's cheap himself. (Well, I say cheap, Magos look like they are considerably overpriced if its only 1 power for 80 points.)

I feel the whole burn CP to kill a character isn't very good. He has - pre any buffs - a 40% chance to kill a jetbike seer. Which might be tempting given the points differentials, but isn't reliable. The issue is you can stick him in a blob of other infantry and just shoot away. 2-3 Marines might not seem like a great coup - but at 60 points its not bad. As people were saying previously, there are loads of elite choices that are efficient targets if he can just pop up in 12" away with some bodyguards and shoot.

Tyel wrote:
If he's at 60 points he doesn't need to kill Ahriman - or a jetbike seer every turn. He can happily shoot infantry, and if he gets into position to gun down a character even better.

Is there some assumption that he's going to be running around with a giant squad protecting him from getting owned? I think this might be a *touch* unrealistic. Then there's the assumption that he'll be able to run around for multiple turns (within 12" of your front line mind you) killing units with impunity. Perhaps we could keep this discussion in the realm of semi-reality?

Tyel wrote:
I feel the whole burn CP to kill a character isn't very good. He has - pre any buffs - a 40% chance to kill a jetbike seer.

- As does the Sanctus, from 36" range.

Tyel wrote:
The issue is you can stick him in a blob of other infantry and just shoot away.

- What's this GSC squad that's going to allow him to safely skate around within 12" but resilient enough that they don't die to a stiff wind?

I guess in some kind of Escher-esque terrain setup this might happen, but I feel like that would be difficult to get on the table and would lead to a lot of wobbly model syndrome.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I guess in some kind of Escher-esque terrain setup this might happen, but I feel like that would be difficult to get on the table and would lead to a lot of wobbly model syndrome.

I don't think the Sanctus does have a 40% chance to kill a jetseer - could you lay out why you think he does?

But yeah. I don't think a few units of neophytes are a great expense. I don't know if Neophytes have changed, but if they are still 5 points a model you can easily provide a unit of 20 for 1 or 3 Kellers to hide behind. 100 points isn't exactly breaking the bank. Sure they die to a stiff breeze - but this is an army that also has considerable threat dispersal. Purestraints, Abberants, even potentially just Acolytes and Metamorphs (not sure on any points changes there). The Bikers might also be a concern.

This isn't "omg its overpowered". I'm probably going to put together a GSC army *looks to models that have sat unpainted for the best part of 2 years* - so I hope they can be meta relevant.
But I don't see why I should say something that will be good isn't going to be. Much like the Ork Codex.

Tyel wrote:
I don't think the Sanctus does have a 40% chance to kill a jetseer - could you lay out why you think he does?

Seer is a psyker, Sanctus rifle causes perils on wound. For 0 CP he can shoot twice.

Why are people ITT bringing up transports as a counter to the kelermorph?

If your HQ is in a transport his rules aren't on the table and he functionally doesn't exist. That is still a denial in the GSCs favor. He's controlling how you use your units.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Why are people ITT bringing up transports as a counter to the kelermorph?

If your HQ is in a transport his rules aren't on the table and he functionally doesn't exist. That is still a denial in the GSCs favor. He's controlling how you use your units.

In other news, if you don't put models on the table, you are protected from the Kelemorph.

At 60 points this is just absurd.

who is bringing up transports after getting info on the price though?