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 BlaxicanX wrote:

If your HQ is in a transport his rules aren't on the table and he functionally doesn't exist. That is still a denial in the GSCs favor. He's controlling how you use your units.

If your opponent has a bunch of deep strike do you protect your backfield?

If your opponent has a bunch of Rangers do you put your fragile HQ out in the open?

If your opponent has fast cc units do you deploy your non-fly tanks out in front?

If your opponent has lots of Smite, do you maneuver chaff in the way?

"Stop controlling me!!"

Why people is so reluctant to recognise when a unit is OP? Or is just badly designed.

So where's the 18 page thread calling for Captain Slam getting nerfed? Or Castellans? Or Ynnari?

Buried under the dozens of , 80 pages thread of people calling for a nerf to IG Infantry

 Galas wrote:
Why people is so reluctant to recognise when a unit is OP? Or is just badly designed.

It's not even clear what the army context is yet. The book isnt in public hands.

Why are people so quick to claim OP when they havent even played againt the updated army?

Because at worse the dude is very optimised as far as points costs goes. Even if he is 0-1 per army, even if he pays 10pts per gun, he is still an auto include. Sometimes units are so good or so bad, that it does not require months of testing, I think, to see that they are good.

But then again GW thought that dark reaper in Inari were balanced, so who the hell knows.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Why are people ITT bringing up transports as a counter to the kelermorph?

If your HQ is in a transport his rules aren't on the table and he functionally doesn't exist. That is still a denial in the GSCs favor. He's controlling how you use your units.

And if their unit is in deepstrike, he isn't on the table, and his rules functionally don't exist. If he comes down without a good target in sight, he gets blown off the field and wasted. This logic goes both ways.

 Galas wrote:
Why people is so reluctant to recognise when a unit is OP?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm that's a VERY difficult question. I can't give you a definite answer, because you've really stumbled across a true mystery here, but I can think a couple of possible reasons. Number one being, the dex isn't even released yet, nobody has played with him, and we don't even firmly know this guy's cost yet. Another one being that pretty much everything this guy can do is easily countered by not playing like a mindless muppet.






These declarations of things being OP before the dex is even released is just bottom level dakka posting. Let's wait till people can actually see the rules and play the model before deciding that people are in denial about something you seem so confident of.


In 6 months after release, if this unit has no real impact on the competitive scene, will you come back to this post and admit you were wrong, if you were?

 SHUPPET wrote:

And if their unit is in deepstrike, he isn't on the table, and his rules functionally don't exist. If he comes down without a good target in sight, he gets blown off the field and wasted. This logic goes both ways.

It doesn't, because it's a false equivalence. The job of the kelermorph is to suppress characters. If you keep your character off the board out of fear of the kelermorph then it doesn't even need to be on the table to have performed its function.

What character are you aware of that can do what you paid the points for it to do, while hiding in a transport for the first three turns of the game?

 Insectum7 wrote:
If your opponent has a bunch of deep strike do you protect your backfield?

If your opponent has a bunch of Rangers do you put your fragile HQ out in the open?

If your opponent has fast cc units do you deploy your non-fly tanks out in front?

If your opponent has lots of Smite, do you maneuver chaff in the way?

"Stop controlling me!!"

And notice that in all of those scenarios, "dude just don't play that unit lol" is not considered a valid counter. If your only option for keeping your HQ alive from smite or snipers is to literally remove it from the board, then you've done exactly what your opponent wanted you to do by functionally just not having that unit on the board.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

And if their unit is in deepstrike, he isn't on the table, and his rules functionally don't exist. If he comes down without a good target in sight, he gets blown off the field and wasted. This logic goes both ways.

It doesn't, because it's a false equivalence. The job of the kelermorph is to suppress characters. If you keep your character off the board out of fear of the kelermorph then it doesn't even need to be on the table to have performed its function.

What character are you aware of that can do what you paid the points for it to do, while hiding in a transport for the first three turns of the game?

You are spending points to do that role with Kelermorph, you're not freely suppressing a unit of your opponents. On top of that, you have a bunch of other ways to deal with it that lets your character keep playing.

Calling things broken this early, is the mark and sign of a bottom tier player. This has held true every single time I've said it. This is not a unit that locks down any meta at all, hell the majority of armies in the game are unphased.

60 points to force an aura character to be off the board for 3 turns is 60 points optimally spent. If the kelermorph does nothing else all game but that then its already made its points back.

I don't know why you keep whining at me about whether or not it's broken. I didn't say its broken, I said hiding your characters from it by putting them in a transport is not a valid counter, and I'm right.

"whining about it being not broken"

That's a new one.


Pretty sure the whining is the people saying it is, not the person saying "maybe we should wait and see till the dex drops before making such strong declarations", but lmao you do you pal

Again, even if the kelermorph comes down and just finds chaff units, if he wipes a imp squad (which he can) he allready made back 2/3rds of his investment, if the guns cost nothing.

If he finds targets such as Firewarriors, space marines, etc, then he easily begins to make a netgain.


Edit: not to mention that he will probably each turn generate his aura if chaff is around.
_______________________________________

and that is just the cherry on top.

You in essence forced an aura charchter out of the game for 3 turns, except he is a terminator variant.

I am going to get the Kill team later on and going to see for myself if there is additional info. Then I will buy the codex next week and see if the world is truly ending and the Kelpermorph will enslave us all.

However, Shuppet is right. Without context all this data is meaningless. People have decried units before release, claiming the end is nigh, only for that unit to be much less than people expected.

In short, we at best have a hypothesis: The Kelermorph is probably OP and will destroy us all. Now, when the codex comes out and we can run a few tests, we will be able to establish a theory, that the Kelermorph is OP and will destroy us all.

In other words: Science!

I don't know why the discussion is just around the Kellermorph. He looks scary, sure, but he is only one piece of the puzzle.

The hypothesis I think is actually something closer to;

'The announced GSC traits, unit costs, stats and stratagems indicate that GSC will undoubtedly be top tier on release. They have objectively better units than other factions equivalents and can ally with the already hyper efficient Guard. On top of this they have access to the most powerful stratagem in the game in A Plan Generations in the Making. I'm scared. Hold me.'

We'll see if this pans out in reality but considering multiple top players have already stated that GSC are "incredibly strong and will impact the meta" as well as the fact that they were doing well as an index army, I think it's a safe bet.

It stops being an hypothesis once you use the word "undoubtedly" and "objectively". That's you making a statement.

I don't know why the discussion is just around the Kellermorph. He looks scary, sure, but he is only one piece of the puzzle.

Because a good portion of this discussion has revolved around the Gunslinger as it started with the reveal of his stats. There is a reason why Cypher has dominated so much of the discussion. I mean, he has been the metric to which this entire discussion has been relying upon.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

What character are you aware of that can do what you paid the points for it to do, while hiding in a transport for the first three turns of the game?

I'd just put mine behind a transport/tank out of potential LOS and keeping the aura active. Or start him in a transport for first turn and then disembark. I also have Company Veterans that can bodyguard. I could also take a relic for a 2+ save on him if I felt the need.

I honestly think Cypher would play really well, and thematically, with these rules and weapons. It's a shame that he didn't get these rules and this model did.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I honestly think Cypher would play really well, and thematically, with these rules and weapons. It's a shame that he didn't get these rules and this model did.

Cypher allready has this gun, well his boltpistol atleast.
The only thing he would need is the double shooting.

Well that and the fallen keyword needs to be looked at.

I agree. That Fallen thing tends to throw a wrench in the entire thing. He has already been lowered pointwise once yet people aren't taking him which means that his skillset is lacklustre.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I don't think the Sanctus does have a 40% chance to kill a jetseer - could you lay out why you think he does?

Seer is a psyker, Sanctus rifle causes perils on wound. For 0 CP he can shoot twice.

The seer has a ghosthelm - a 2+ save versus perils makes it unlikely.

Shooting once you have a 75% chance to do no damage, and almost no chance to do 6 wounds. Shooting twice ups this to a 60% chance to do no damage, but still only a 1.3% chance to kill the Jetseer.
Using the wound on 2+ sniper I think this increases to just 3%, although the odds of doing nothing are reduced to 40% if shooting twice.

Ahriman is a better target (pre any defensive buffs) - but you are still looking at about a 7% chance to kill him with one shot, 17% chance if shooting twice.

Geoff Robinson/iNcontroL's codex review has beaten me to it - but when there are so many chances to fail, low-shot snipers are not reliable, and consequently almost always rubbish unless very cheap.

Tyel wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I don't think the Sanctus does have a 40% chance to kill a jetseer - could you lay out why you think he does?

Seer is a psyker, Sanctus rifle causes perils on wound. For 0 CP he can shoot twice.

The seer has a ghosthelm - a 2+ save versus perils makes it unlikely.

Shooting once you have a 75% chance to do no damage, and almost no chance to do 6 wounds. Shooting twice ups this to a 60% chance to do no damage, but still only a 1.3% chance to kill the Jetseer.
Using the wound on 2+ sniper I think this increases to just 3%, although the odds of doing nothing are reduced to 40% if shooting twice.

Ahriman is a better target (pre any defensive buffs) - but you are still looking at about a 7% chance to kill him with one shot, 17% chance if shooting twice.

Geoff Robinson/iNcontroL's codex review has beaten me to it - but when there are so many chances to fail, low-shot snipers are not reliable, and consequently almost always rubbish unless very cheap.

On the plus side, doubleshooting with the sniper costs 0CP, and whilest he has the arguably worse sniper rifle to the biker gal, for regular targets, he still can be a massive annoyance.
That said, wothout the stratagem special rule i am inclined to say that he would be bad, compared to his brothers.

My problem with the Kelermorph is easy to explain: horde armies (with foot infantry) supported by character become more of a liability.

So...
Considering that they are the natural counter to Knight list, and the GSC until now seems a counter to them (and also to heroic powerful single character and elite troops - slamcaptain, smashboss, veterans... you name one: Kelermorph hurts them)...
I expect more and more Knights on the table at any level.

I have no problem with that, honestly.
But since a lot of people hate Knight for whatever reason... within few months, when community will call for a nerf to Knight because they will became ubiquitous, try to remember who really started this specific armarment race: this guy here.

 Cybtroll wrote:
My problem with the Kelermorph is easy to explain: horde armies (with foot infantry) supported by character become more of a liability.

So...
Considering that they are the natural counter to Knight list, and the GSC until now seems a counter to them (and also to heroic powerful single character and elite troops - slamcaptain, smashboss, veterans... you name one: Kelermorph hurts them)...
I expect more and more Knights on the table at any level.

I have no problem with that, honestly.
But since a lot of people hate Knight for whatever reason... within few months, when community will call for a nerf to Knight because they will became ubiquitous, try to remember who really started this specific armarment race: this guy here.

You could however also argue that the armaments race was started by knights in the first place.

 SHUPPET wrote:

]It doesn't, because it's a false equivalence. The job of the kelermorph is to suppress characters. If you keep your character off the board out of fear of the kelermorph then it doesn't even need to be on the table to have performed its function.

What character are you aware of that can do what you paid the points for it to do, while hiding in a transport for the first three turns of the game?

You are spending points to do that role with Kelermorph, you're not freely suppressing a unit of your opponents. On top of that, you have a bunch of other ways to deal with it that lets your character keep playing.

Calling things broken this early, is the mark and sign of a bottom tier player. This has held true every single time I've said it. This is not a unit that locks down any meta at all, hell the majority of armies in the game are unphased.

fix your quoting. I didn't say that.

 SHUPPET wrote:
It stops being an hypothesis once you use the word "undoubtedly" and "objectively". That's you making a statement.

'Indicate' is the hypothetical. But change the words to suit as appropriate.

I note the major defenders of the Kelermorph and GSC abilities in general seem to be those players who will field them.Telling in and of itself.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
It stops being an hypothesis once you use the word "undoubtedly" and "objectively". That's you making a statement.

'Indicate' is the hypothetical. But change the words to suit as appropriate.

I note the major defenders of the Kelermorph and GSC abilities in general seem to be those players who will field them.Telling in and of itself.

I'm paying attention to this thread because I play the army. I don't plan to run a Kelermorph, I don't find it appealing gameplay wise. Time to drop your projection, it's already failed you.

I would say the exact same thing in any other pre-release thread, and have done before. Declaring things as OP, and also as garbage, before the dex has even released, is really cringeworthy behavior that seems to thrive on dakka and not in productive discussion or high level circles. Anyone who does it should really be questioning their level of skill as a player and where they stand with such emotion based statements, because I certainly am when I read those posts. To try sling this into some bias about me defending Kelermorph's because I want to play them or something is just utterly absurd. On top of that, anyone who knows me should know by now I'm usually the guy saying things in my army are STRONGER than others will, not the other way around.

So the codex is being reviewed and kelermorphs are indeed 60 points. That makes one of them pretty much an auto include, maybe even two or three, depending on how many detachments one brings.

They might not be OP meta shiftingly broken, but they are without a doubt too good for their points.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
It stops being an hypothesis once you use the word "undoubtedly" and "objectively". That's you making a statement.

'Indicate' is the hypothetical. But change the words to suit as appropriate.

I note the major defenders of the Kelermorph and GSC abilities in general seem to be those players who will field them.Telling in and of itself.

I'm paying attention to this thread because I play the army. I don't plan to run a Kelermorph, I don't find it appealing gameplay wise. Time to drop your projection, it's already failed you.

I would say the exact same thing in any other pre-release thread, and have done before. Declaring things as OP, and also as garbage, before the dex has even released, is really cringeworthy behavior that seems to thrive on dakka and not in productive discussion or high level circles. Anyone who does it should really be questioning their level of skill as a player and where they stand with such emotion based statements, because I certainly am when I read those posts.

I'm not projecting and I don't know or care what you run. You run GSC though given you've just started a thread to discuss their tactics and refer to their players as 'we'. You've also defended the Keler. These are two facts. As i said, to me that is telling.

Your logic is the exact same logic that the 'Guardsmen should cost 4ppm' defenders have been using for the last 12 months. "Just wait until other codexes are released! You don't have all the data! You can't compare things in a vacuum! Its not them that's the problem, its the interaction between them and unit x/stratagem x!"

The dex may as well be released since we know literally everything about it now. Particularly now codex reviews are getting released. Sometimes a unit is so efficient its obvious it'll be strong. A unit that can all but guarantee to make it's points back is one such unit. Strong does not mean OP. Similarly a unit that isn't strong enough in some way (Warbikes for example) we can safely assume will be useless on codex release. I stated that warbikes were still far too expensive before the Orks codex dropped when we had the previews of their points and abilities. Look at that. No one takes them in a competitive game. I said the Mek workshop was trash pre codex. And it is. The same thing for the Squig Buggy.

Anyone with even a bit of experience/knowledge of the game can make a reasonable, informed assumption about the strength or weakness of something pre codex release. Obviously the more knowledge the better. Playtesters have said the GSC codex is incredibly strong. They may be entirely correct. Waiting until CA19 for GW to maybe fix something because you think its too early to tell does not sound like a good idea to me though and I'm confident enough in my opinions to not question myself every time I have one.