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 SHUPPET wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Why are people ITT bringing up transports as a counter to the kelermorph?

If your HQ is in a transport his rules aren't on the table and he functionally doesn't exist. That is still a denial in the GSCs favor. He's controlling how you use your units.

And if their unit is in deepstrike, he isn't on the table, and his rules functionally don't exist. If he comes down without a good target in sight, he gets blown off the field and wasted. This logic goes both ways.

 Galas wrote:
Why people is so reluctant to recognise when a unit is OP?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm that's a VERY difficult question. I can't give you a definite answer, because you've really stumbled across a true mystery here, but I can think a couple of possible reasons. Number one being, the dex isn't even released yet, nobody has played with him, and we don't even firmly know this guy's cost yet. Another one being that pretty much everything this guy can do is easily countered by not playing like a mindless muppet.






These declarations of things being OP before the dex is even released is just bottom level dakka posting. Let's wait till people can actually see the rules and play the model before deciding that people are in denial about something you seem so confident of.


In 6 months after release, if this unit has no real impact on the competitive scene, will you come back to this post and admit you were wrong, if you were?

I will because I have no problem recognising when I'm wrong but you'll have to remember me because I don't think I'll remember.

And I think you are right. Nothing can surpass real experience and months of playtesting on the battlefield to see what combos and units are clearly OP. But you can see when a unit is badly designed just as people recognised conscripts where OP when the Index leaked without anybody playing the game.
But I'll admit that I haven't have been paying attention to the thread once it surpassed 6 pages of people complaying than Cypher was a mook alongside this guy. I shouldn't have come and post that question without reading carefully what was been said and analised.
I apologize for that bad forum behaviour.

(But yeah I'm a scrub I'm not gonna deny it, I love too much my models to sacrifice what I find visual and gameplay apealing for the most powerfull combos, even if I try my best with what I have .At least I'm lucky that my meta is casual so no problem.)
EDIT: I'm not saying someone is doing it wrong it they use the most powerfull combos, I was just talking about my personal preferences.

Okay, so this guy is coming in at 60ppm. As his weapons are unique to him, they are probably 0 points. I'll happily admit that he seems too good.

 Cybtroll wrote:
My problem with the Kelermorph is easy to explain: horde armies (with foot infantry) supported by character become more of a liability.

So...
Considering that they are the natural counter to Knight list, and the GSC until now seems a counter to them (and also to heroic powerful single character and elite troops - slamcaptain, smashboss, veterans... you name one: Kelermorph hurts them)...
I expect more and more Knights on the table at any level.

I have no problem with that, honestly.
But since a lot of people hate Knight for whatever reason... within few months, when community will call for a nerf to Knight because they will became ubiquitous, try to remember who really started this specific armarment race: this guy here.

Knights might be a liability vs GSC, too, with that spell of theirs.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Cybtroll wrote:
My problem with the Kelermorph is easy to explain: horde armies (with foot infantry) supported by character become more of a liability.

So...
Considering that they are the natural counter to Knight list, and the GSC until now seems a counter to them (and also to heroic powerful single character and elite troops - slamcaptain, smashboss, veterans... you name one: Kelermorph hurts them)...
I expect more and more Knights on the table at any level.

I have no problem with that, honestly.
But since a lot of people hate Knight for whatever reason... within few months, when community will call for a nerf to Knight because they will became ubiquitous, try to remember who really started this specific armarment race: this guy here.

Knights might be a liability vs GSC, too, with that spell of theirs.

Somehow gsc have not managed to shatter the knight meta with that spell since they've had it in their index, so I'm going to make a prediction that not much will change in that regard.

the_scotsman wrote:

Somehow gsc have not managed to shatter the knight meta with that spell since they've had it in their index, so I'm going to make a prediction that not much will change in that regard.

I mean the new one - Mental Onslaught.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

What character are you aware of that can do what you paid the points for it to do, while hiding in a transport for the first three turns of the game?

I'd just put mine behind a transport/tank out of potential LOS and keeping the aura active. Or start him in a transport for first turn and then disembark. I also have Company Veterans that can bodyguard. I could also take a relic for a 2+ save on him if I felt the need.

You do realize how expensive Company Vets and Honour Guard are to be taking wounds from a 60 point model, right? That's STILL making his points back!

An Actual Englishman wrote:

Spoiler:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
It stops being an hypothesis once you use the word "undoubtedly" and "objectively". That's you making a statement.

'Indicate' is the hypothetical. But change the words to suit as appropriate.

I note the major defenders of the Kelermorph and GSC abilities in general seem to be those players who will field them.Telling in and of itself.

I'm paying attention to this thread because I play the army. I don't plan to run a Kelermorph, I don't find it appealing gameplay wise. Time to drop your projection, it's already failed you.

I would say the exact same thing in any other pre-release thread, and have done before. Declaring things as OP, and also as garbage, before the dex has even released, is really cringeworthy behavior that seems to thrive on dakka and not in productive discussion or high level circles. Anyone who does it should really be questioning their level of skill as a player and where they stand with such emotion based statements, because I certainly am when I read those posts.

I'm not projecting and I don't know or care what you run. You run GSC though given you've just started a thread to discuss their tactics and refer to their players as 'we'. You've also defended the Keler. These are two facts. As i said, to me that is telling.

Your logic is the exact same logic that the 'Guardsmen should cost 4ppm' defenders have been using for the last 12 months. "Just wait until other codexes are released! You don't have all the data! You can't compare things in a vacuum! Its not them that's the problem, its the interaction between them and unit x/stratagem x!"

The dex may as well be released since we know literally everything about it now. Particularly now codex reviews are getting released. Sometimes a unit is so efficient its obvious it'll be strong. A unit that can all but guarantee to make it's points back is one such unit. Strong does not mean OP. Similarly a unit that isn't strong enough in some way (Warbikes for example) we can safely assume will be useless on codex release. I stated that warbikes were still far too expensive before the Orks codex dropped when we had the previews of their points and abilities. Look at that. No one takes them in a competitive game. I said the Mek workshop was trash pre codex. And it is. The same thing for the Squig Buggy.

Anyone with even a bit of experience/knowledge of the game can make a reasonable, informed assumption about the strength or weakness of something pre codex release. Obviously the more knowledge the better. Playtesters have said the GSC codex is incredibly strong. They may be entirely correct. Waiting until CA19 for GW to maybe fix something because you think its too early to tell does not sound like a good idea to me though and I'm confident enough in my opinions to not question myself every time I have one.

"I don't know or care what you run"
"I know you run GSC and that says a lot"

Pick one. These two statements are literally contradictory at every step.

I also said I plan not to play it and that I have said the same thing about other armies I don't play. Did you read anything here, or is this literally all the steam your argument has that you need to stand by this new nonsense declaration?


There is nothing in common with people defending Guardsmen. For starters, that's not even the argument THEY used. I've seen a lot of reasoning justifying 4 pt Guardsmen, not once did I see a claim that they are done because we have to wait for other stronger dexes to match it.
Secondly, it's not even the argument I was making either. I'm not in any way saying to wait for other stronger units to come out lmao are you even reading? I'm saying wait for THIS unit to come out before trying to drop the metaphorical guillotine on something that literally hasn't even been released or played by us yet.

Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.

It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.

Oh look, the bikers are 5+.

Like they should be. For 10 points, W2 4+ would be frickin ridiculous.

They still are though.

But the bikes have a -1 to hit in the shooting phase right? That's probably a bigger deal than a 4+/5+.

Any idea what their unit sizes are?

C4790M wrote:
I don’t understand why people are saying gsc units can’t be good compared to space marines/eldar/necrons etc. The cult is a hive mind that, by the time of ascension, spans an entire planet and has done for generations, with more plans and back-up plans than batman with prep time. Plenty of time and resources to gene-mod and train a guy up to kelermorph standard. We don’t even know if genestealer hybrids age normally, dude could be way older than the average human lifespan for all we know.

Hey - let's not get silly now. A GSC may think it knows what it's doing, but Batman is the gosh-darned Batman...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Somehow gsc have not managed to shatter the knight meta with that spell since they've had it in their index, so I'm going to make a prediction that not much will change in that regard.

I mean the new one - Mental Onslaught.

There is certainly theoretical potential if you can combine it with leadership debuffs.

But then Harlequins have a very similar spell in mirror of minds and based on the fact we don't see threads screaming about it I don't think it has significant meta impact (versus say haywire bikers).

Ahhhhahahahahaha.....the bikers are garbage lol.

The rumor got one thing wrong: it's not two weapons they can take...it's one.

So for 10pts, you get WS4 BS4 1A that can take one of the following:

-Improvised weapon (which is nothing)
-Bolt or autopistol
-Chainsword
-autogun
-shotgun

1 in 4 can have a GL

sarge can have a power weap (or a 9-point power pick)

HOT DAMN THOSE 10 POINT AUTOGUNNERS GONNA SMASH THE META BOYS.

you can be T4 W2 with -1 to hit, sure. but if you're 1A and your best weapon is a shotgun...you're not going to actually DO anything.

the_scotsman wrote:
Ahhhhahahahahaha.....the bikers are garbage lol.

The rumor got one thing wrong: it's not two weapons they can take...it's one.

So for 10pts, you get WS4 BS4 1A that can take one of the following:

-Improvised weapon (which is nothing)
-Bolt or autopistol
-Chainsword
-autogun
-shotgun

1 in 4 can have a GL

sarge can have a power weap (or a 9-point power pick)

HOT DAMN THOSE 10 POINT AUTOGUNNERS GONNA SMASH THE META BOYS.

you can be T4 W2 with -1 to hit, sure. but if you're 1A and your best weapon is a shotgun...you're not going to actually DO anything.

because shotgunns are that bad?
Because a durable 10ppm fast model is supposedly that bad?

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Ahhhhahahahahaha.....the bikers are garbage lol.

The rumor got one thing wrong: it's not two weapons they can take...it's one.

So for 10pts, you get WS4 BS4 1A that can take one of the following:

-Improvised weapon (which is nothing)
-Bolt or autopistol
-Chainsword
-autogun
-shotgun

1 in 4 can have a GL

sarge can have a power weap (or a 9-point power pick)

HOT DAMN THOSE 10 POINT AUTOGUNNERS GONNA SMASH THE META BOYS.

you can be T4 W2 with -1 to hit, sure. but if you're 1A and your best weapon is a shotgun...you're not going to actually DO anything.

because shotgunns are that bad?
Because a durable 10ppm fast model is supposedly that bad?

you know how people see tactical marines as abysmally bad because they don't deal any damage and it's pretty easy to kill them for their point cost? These bikes only deal the amount of damage a tactical marine deals if they're 6" away from something, and they have lower ballistic skill so not even then unless you buff them. Also, T4 W2 5+ with -1 to hit makes them only 20% more durable than tacticals for the points against basic antiinfantry weaponry. They get to be worse if you're in melee, and obviously worse if your opponent has multidamage weaponry. And we're talking about a squad that gets fewer, and worse, special weapons than those tactical marines, and is not a troop choice.

They're solidly worse than what is considered one of the worst troops in the game. And they're not a troop choice.

Also, to everyone who is talking about oneshotting knights with mental onslaught:

mental onslaught ends when you FAIL TO INFLICT a mortal wound. Doesn't say it ends when your opponent ties or beats your roll-off. IKs have a 2cp stratagem to ignore mortal wounds on a 5+. In order to deal significant damage to a knight with mental onslaught, you need to do the following:

1) get your caster within 18" of the knight (ok, pretty easy).

2) have a support character next to your caster (Also easy)

3) get a particular relic within 6" of the knight that can only be on infantry (hmm. Hard. knights tend to have screens.)

4) get another psyker within 18" of the knight from an allied soup detachment, and cast a psychic power on the knight.

5) Get a model with no fly, no deep strike and 6" move within 6" of the knight

6) Cast mental onslaught on the knight, don't have that get denied.

7) successfully vect the 5+ save vs mortal strat for 3cp (which requires you to select that as your cult detachment's trait)

Then, and only then, you have a LD7 knight rolling against a LD11 psyker and there's only a 1 in 36 chance of him tying or beating you on that roll - meaning you will oneshot that knight with the psychic power on average - holy cow!

Don't succeed in getting one of these bonuses/maluses in place, your average wounds to the knight goes down to 9.

Don't succeed 2, your average wounds is down to 3.

Don't vect the stratagem, average wounds is down to 3.

"Durable"? Ha. Just assault them, they'll fold like card stock.

I will definitely give you one thing though, complainers of dakka: Kellermorph is almost certainly too good for his points. I'd even say far too good. Luckily there will only ever be 3 of him, more often 2.

Also, the Sanctus creates a number of "we must FAQ this NOW" interactions with certain psyker units who previously had no way of suffering perils of the warp (Thousand Sons non-sergeants and pink horrors being the big ones I can come up with right now) because the perils cause instant explosions as EACH MODEL killed by the D3 roll causes the D3 mortal wound explosion.

That's a RAW nightmare.

Have you ever heard of your Lord and sviour the brigade filler fast assult?

Yeah that is what the Bikes will be.

Secondly 20% more durability on top of beeing cheaper, i'd take it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
I will definitely give you one thing though, complainers of dakka: Kellermorph is almost certainly too good for his points. I'd even say far too good. Luckily there will only ever be 3 of him, more often 2.

Also, the Sanctus creates a number of "we must FAQ this NOW" interactions with certain psyker units who previously had no way of suffering perils of the warp (Thousand Sons non-sergeants and pink horrors being the big ones I can come up with right now) because the perils cause instant explosions as EACH MODEL killed by the D3 roll causes the D3 mortal wound explosion.

That's a RAW nightmare.

I wondered about certain oddities aswell, mainly because if malefic lords survive the perils do they Automatically get posessed?

Is this a bad time to mention the kelemorph can replace one pistol with a relic that’s pistol 3 s4 ap-2 d2 that rerolls hits and sounds vs characters? Or is that going to cause some of the naysayers to have an aneurism?

40pts base, cult sentinel is 30pts. Atalatlatalatl Trash Riders lose again.

They're a garbage version of rough riders. Of. Rough. Riders.

C4790M wrote:
Is this a bad time to mention the kelemorph can replace one pistol with a relic that’s pistol 3 s4 ap-2 d2 that rerolls hits and sounds vs characters? Or is that going to cause some of the naysayers to have an aneurism?

No,
I guess the problem is not that he is good at killing charachters, the problem is that he just Willy nilly doubles his dakka for the lulz.

C4790M wrote:
Is this a bad time to mention the kelemorph can replace one pistol with a relic that’s pistol 3 s4 ap-2 d2 that rerolls hits and sounds vs characters? Or is that going to cause some of the naysayers to have an aneurism?

Ugg...

the_scotsman wrote:
40pts base, cult sentinel is 30pts. Atalatlatalatl Trash Riders lose again.

They're a garbage version of rough riders. Of. Rough. Riders.

Are they min 4 per squad?

Also you forgot the weapon on the sentinels no?

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
40pts base, cult sentinel is 30pts. Atalatlatalatl Trash Riders lose again.

They're a garbage version of rough riders. Of. Rough. Riders.

Are they min 4 per squad?

Also you forgot the weapon on the sentinels no?

Yea, 4 plus buggy. Buggy is possibly optional.

C4790M wrote:
Is this a bad time to mention the kelemorph can replace one pistol with a relic that’s pistol 3 s4 ap-2 d2 that rerolls hits and sounds vs characters? Or is that going to cause some of the naysayers to have an aneurism?

Yeah no he is cancer. I don't think I'd spend the CP on it though since it'll just overkill your target and he's a total suicide bombers anyway. I'd just file that under "adding insult to injury".

Competitive gsc lists will be mass handflamer acolyte squads to clear screens, a couple psykers to try and mortal wound/hijack knights, then abominations and aberrant to kill tough stuff and Keller to kill characters.

Ridge runners, bikers, alphus, brood bros, and pretty much everything else that's new in this release will never see a competitive table. This release will put nid soup on par with imp and eldar soup but I sincerely doubt it'll dethrone the castellan meta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
40pts base, cult sentinel is 30pts. Atalatlatalatl Trash Riders lose again.

They're a garbage version of rough riders. Of. Rough. Riders.

Are they min 4 per squad?

Also you forgot the weapon on the sentinels no?

Nope, 25pt+5pt multilaser.

4 min per squad buggy is optional.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
40pts base, cult sentinel is 30pts. Atalatlatalatl Trash Riders lose again.

They're a garbage version of rough riders. Of. Rough. Riders.

Are they min 4 per squad?

Also you forgot the weapon on the sentinels no?

Yea, 4 plus buggy. Buggy is possibly optional.

Well the cheapest possible scout sentinel is 35 ppm with a multilaser.

I'd say that i'd be willing to pay 5 ppm more.


Edit: a scout sentinel as off ca is 30 base.

A shame about the Bikers because they look very cool. But GSC has no need for light and rapid movile forces when they have so many ways to be where they want to be.

the_scotsman wrote:
you know how people see tactical marines as abysmally bad because they don't deal any damage and it's pretty easy to kill them for their point cost? These bikes only deal the amount of damage a tactical marine deals if they're 6" away from something, and they have lower ballistic skill so not even then unless you buff them. Also, T4 W2 5+ with -1 to hit makes them only 20% more durable than tacticals for the points against basic antiinfantry weaponry. They get to be worse if you're in melee, and obviously worse if your opponent has multidamage weaponry. And we're talking about a squad that gets fewer, and worse, special weapons than those tactical marines, and is not a troop choice.

They're solidly worse than what is considered one of the worst troops in the game. And they're not a troop choice.

This isn't right. First they can definitely can take 2 weapons, and there might be something with the demo charges+stratagems.

Still - as I see it the humble shotgun/cultist knife variant has the potential to do 4 WS/BS 4+, S4 (Twisted Helix) Ap- attacks for 10 points. Its not overpowered, and sure only in 6"+assault, but with movement 14" that's not such a big ask. Also you have -1 to hit with shooting, 2 wounds, toughness 4, 5+ save. Sounds good to me. If you don't care about the S4 in assault rusted claw would further boost their resilience.

Sure you can say a Marine does 3 such attacks with WS/BS 3+ - but then he's also 13 points. While being slower and a lot more vulnerable to most (possibly all) weapon types. I really don't get your claim they are 20% more durable - they give up about half as many points compared to Marines against small arms weapons because of that -1 to hit.

Marine shooting Marine:
1*2/3*1/2*1/3*13=1.444 points.
Marine shooting Jackal.
1*1/2*1/2*2/3*5=0.8333 points.

Guardsman shooting Marine:
1*1/2*1/3*1/3*13=0.722 points
Guardsman shooting Jackal
1*1/3*1/3*2/3*5=0.37 points.

Are they breaking a meta dominated by Knights and Eldar/Tau units with the fly keyword that they can't really touch? No, but its not terrible. With that M14 they can jump isolated squads, characters and objectives.

This isn't right. First they can definitely can take 2 weapons, and there might be something with the demo charges+stratagems.

Still - as I see it the humble shotgun/cultist knife variant has the potential to do 4 WS/BS 4+, S4 (Twisted Helix) Ap- attacks for 10 points. Its not overpowered, and sure only in 6"+assault, but with movement 14" that's not such a big ask. Also you have -1 to hit with shooting, 2 wounds, toughness 4, 5+ save. Sounds good to me. If you don't care about the S4 in assault rusted claw would further boost their resilience.

Sure you can say a Marine does 3 such attacks with WS/BS 3+ - but then he's also 13 points. While being slower and a lot more vulnerable to most (possibly all) weapon types. I really don't get your claim they are 20% more durable - they give up about half as many points compared to Marines against small arms weapons because of that -1 to hit.

Marine shooting Marine:
1*2/3*1/2*1/3*13=1.444 points.
Marine shooting Jackal.
1*1/2*1/2*2/3*5=0.8333 points.

Guardsman shooting Marine:
1*1/2*1/3*1/3*13=0.722 points
Guardsman shooting Jackal
1*1/3*1/3*2/3*5=0.37 points.

Are they breaking a meta dominated by Knights and Eldar/Tau units with the fly keyword that they can't really touch? No, but its not terrible. With that M14 they can jump isolated squads, characters and objectives.

And here i thought i was nuts.

Why compare to Marines, though? Marines suck.

Compare to, say, Tomb Blades. They fill similar roles, and Tomb Blades are considered good.