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The rumor got one thing wrong: it's not two weapons they can take...it's one.
So for 10pts, you get WS4 BS4 1A that can take one of the following:
-Improvised weapon (which is nothing)
-Bolt or autopistol
-Chainsword
-autogun
-shotgun
1 in 4 can have a GL
sarge can have a power weap (or a 9-point power pick)
HOT DAMN THOSE 10 POINT AUTOGUNNERS GONNA SMASH THE META BOYS.
you can be T4 W2 with -1 to hit, sure. but if you're 1A and your best weapon is a shotgun...you're not going to actually DO anything.
because shotgunns are that bad?
Because a durable 10ppm fast model is supposedly that bad?
you know how people see tactical marines as abysmally bad because they don't deal any damage and it's pretty easy to kill them for their point cost? These bikes only deal the amount of damage a tactical marine deals if they're 6" away from something, and they have lower ballistic skill so not even then unless you buff them. Also, T4 W2 5+ with -1 to hit makes them only 20% more durable than tacticals for the points against basic antiinfantry weaponry. They get to be worse if you're in melee, and obviously worse if your opponent has multidamage weaponry. And we're talking about a squad that gets fewer, and worse, special weapons than those tactical marines, and is not a troop choice.
They're solidly worse than what is considered one of the worst troops in the game. And they're not a troop choice.
Also, to everyone who is talking about oneshotting knights with mental onslaught:
mental onslaught ends when you FAIL TO INFLICT a mortal wound. Doesn't say it ends when your opponent ties or beats your roll-off. IKs have a 2cp stratagem to ignore mortal wounds on a 5+. In order to deal significant damage to a knight with mental onslaught, you need to do the following:
1) get your caster within 18" of the knight (ok, pretty easy).
2) have a support character next to your caster (Also easy)
3) get a particular relic within 6" of the knight that can only be on infantry (hmm. Hard. knights tend to have screens.)
4) get another psyker within 18" of the knight from an allied soup detachment, and cast a psychic power on the knight.
5) Get a model with no fly, no deep strike and 6" move within 6" of the knight
6) Cast mental onslaught on the knight, don't have that get denied.
7) successfully vect the 5+ save vs mortal strat for 3cp (which requires you to select that as your cult detachment's trait)
Then, and only then, you have a LD7 knight rolling against a LD11 psyker and there's only a 1 in 36 chance of him tying or beating you on that roll - meaning you will oneshot that knight with the psychic power on average - holy cow!
Don't succeed in getting one of these bonuses/maluses in place, your average wounds to the knight goes down to 9.
Don't succeed 2, your average wounds is down to 3.
Don't vect the stratagem, average wounds is down to 3.
The exact wording is "When you fail to inflict 1 mortal wound by having a score higher than your opponent" so no
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/02 23:04:57
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
Yup. It's an overkill gun. Will I defend the existence of this relic when it costs as much as Cawl's Wrath?
Why yes. Yes I will. The character it's on is nuts - the gun is not.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
Yup. It's an overkill gun. Will I defend the existence of this relic when it costs as much as Cawl's Wrath?
Why yes. Yes I will. The character it's on is nuts - the gun is not.
I mean, Yeah it is strong, nuts even thanks to the kelers special rule, but only picked if you have a free relic slot and absolutely positively want to go hunting elite infantry and blobs.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/02 23:31:06
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
It's the extra shot, plus rerolls to hit, plus rerolls to wound that makes him auto-kill a T4 W5 3++ model with only needing 2CP to get into range.
Now, I will say - it is taking a relic and if we're using the Smash Captain analogy it's still not terribly different considerations on how to deal with it, but I think the KM has a lot more chance to be successful than Cap.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
It's the extra shot, plus rerolls to hit, plus rerolls to wound that makes him auto-kill a T4 W5 3++ model with only needing 2CP to get into range.
Now, I will say - it is taking a relic and if we're using the Smash Captain analogy it's still not terribly different considerations on how to deal with it, but I think the KM has a lot more chance to be successful than Cap.
Tbf you can basically field two morphs for one smashcaptain.
If you have a free relic slot sure why not Hand it out but i still belive that the low points a kelermorph costs and the 2 CP deployment strat will make him efficient enough for his intended role.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Compare to, say, Tomb Blades. They fill similar roles, and Tomb Blades are considered good.
In my view anyway tomb blades are expensive to the point of being fragile. Its what 31 points with bladevanes, maybe you throw in the nebuloscope or whatever for 33?
Okay you get T5, 3+ save vs T4 5+ save. But you are paying over 3 times as many points.
But say vs an unbuffed Ravager:
Vs Jackal
9*1/2*2/3=3 dead bikes=30 points.
Vs Blades
9*1/2*1/2*5/6 (without the loom)=1.875 dead blades=58.125 points.
I think a riptide would get similar numbers.
I guess this is why I'm not a big fan of Blades. I tend to see them get shot off the table turn 1 or 2 without having really done anything and with a squad of 6 you are giving up 170-200 points which is fairly meaty.
On the plus side the Blades have much more powerful guns for their points, you consequently have a much larger window of targets and don't have to worry about assaulting to generate some value. I'm still not convinced though.
I see the Jackals as anti-chaff chaff and objective grabbers (no ob sec but still). They are there to menace characters (especially if wounded/hiding from Kellers) or min size troop squads camped on back field objectives. Or to tag artillery units so they can't fire next turn. Or get in the way of nasty assault units so you can deal with them on your terms. If my opponent wants to kill them they can - but they are not that efficient to kill, and I'd much rather you were assaulting/shooting them than say abberants, stealers, acolytes etc.
A counter argument is probably that with universal deep strike, you might not need that function. You can just bring those units above straight onto the table turn 2 to eat up/tag targets - especially with all the available buffs to moving from the ambush. At the same time though I don't think that makes the bikers awful in themselves - and being to relocate across the table can sometimes be critical to winning games.
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
Well...
better BS (but worse WS so its a wash)
I don't think getting a couple autogun shots makes that a wash. These guys are also S3 not S4 and have 1 attack not 2. And with +1A/+1A easily available to Boyz, well...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/03 00:07:01
Still 10pts for a 14" moving unit with 2W and -1to hit doesn't seem to be too bad. Even for objective grabing. Don't people use scouts or higher point cost units like rhinos to tank overwatch etc. Getting those bikers dude charge first, just so your big hammer dudes don't have to eat overwatch seems to be ok. Sure they aren't s spears, but they also cost a lot less.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: Still 10pts for a 14" moving unit with 2W and -1to hit doesn't seem to be too bad. Even for objective grabing. Don't people use scouts or higher point cost units like rhinos to tank overwatch etc. Getting those bikers dude charge first, just so your big hammer dudes don't have to eat overwatch seems to be ok. Sure they aren't s spears, but they also cost a lot less.
The point of charging in a Rhino is that it's VERY DIFFICULT to kill a Rhino on Overwatch.
Even a Knight Valian, with its 3d6 S7 AP-2 D2 flamer averages only...
To a Rhino, which means it is VERY likely to make it in.
Now, compare these Jackals...
21/2 hits
42/6 or 7 wounds
7 unsaved
7 dead
Admittedly, most overwatch isn't as scary as a Valiant's, but against most things that are, what WON'T kill a Rhino very well might kill a squad of them.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Karol wrote: Still 10pts for a 14" moving unit with 2W and -1to hit doesn't seem to be too bad. Even for objective grabing. Don't people use scouts or higher point cost units like rhinos to tank overwatch etc. Getting those bikers dude charge first, just so your big hammer dudes don't have to eat overwatch seems to be ok. Sure they aren't s spears, but they also cost a lot less.
Karol wrote: Still 10pts for a 14" moving unit with 2W and -1to hit doesn't seem to be too bad. Even for objective grabing. Don't people use scouts or higher point cost units like rhinos to tank overwatch etc. Getting those bikers dude charge first, just so your big hammer dudes don't have to eat overwatch seems to be ok. Sure they aren't s spears, but they also cost a lot less.
No. No they do not, at least not in competitive lists. Also, Rhinos transport models, and scouts are troops that give CPs.
These bikers serve no role that isn't better served by many many other elements in the codex. It doesn't matter if you can find a way to justify their use for something or another - its like taking a Taurox in a Guard list, or regular Ogryns, or tacticals in a marine list. It doesn't matter if you can justify something some way or another, there's nothing that reasonably durable, mobile guys equipped with only lasgun-tier weapons do in a codex where EVERYTHING can just deep strike to where it wants to go.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Karol wrote: Still 10pts for a 14" moving unit with 2W and -1to hit doesn't seem to be too bad. Even for objective grabing. Don't people use scouts or higher point cost units like rhinos to tank overwatch etc. Getting those bikers dude charge first, just so your big hammer dudes don't have to eat overwatch seems to be ok. Sure they aren't s spears, but they also cost a lot less.
No. No they do not, at least not in competitive lists. Also, Rhinos transport models, and scouts are troops that give CPs.
These bikers serve no role that isn't better served by many many other elements in the codex. It doesn't matter if you can find a way to justify their use for something or another - its like taking a Taurox in a Guard list, or regular Ogryns, or tacticals in a marine list. It doesn't matter if you can justify something some way or another, there's nothing that reasonably durable, mobile guys equipped with only lasgun-tier weapons do in a codex where EVERYTHING can just deep strike to where it wants to go.
Again, they do seem to outperform sentinels and cost only 5ppm more,. Since i do not belive that a cult sentinel is only 25 pts when it is literally for am and r&h 30 ppm without weapons.
Edit: not to mention satchel charges and their stratagems and Traits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/03 00:42:18
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
The counterplay as Orks is to put chaff in the way, then easily kill him and his bodyguard unit as nearly everything in GSC is T3 5+. Even if he makes most of his points back killing chaff, thats the job of chaff
I’d also like to point out that this guy is one per detachment, so in a GSC/Nid soup list you’re facing a maximum of 2. Also, GSC are shaping up to be a veryCP heavy army and the opportunity cost of using 3CP to get him to double shoot or the 2CP to get him 3” away is very high, especially when there are other units that need to use those stratagems
I suppose it's cheating to say "grot shields" even though that's exactly what I'd do, because every GSC army will be cult of the four armed emperor and theyll never have a stratagem more important to vect, and it's still "no counterplay" if their 60-point model kills my 60-point warboss and uses 5-8CP to do it.
Or just have enough boyz on the table for it to not matter.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
This is an absurdly false comparison. 100W 1 pt 2+++ models. That model has NOT been printed. NOBODY thinks that this could potentially turn out not to be crazy. There was NO member of the playtest team that finished playing this model and said "yeah, fair". The Kelermorph however, you can quite practically see how they could think all these things, and I'd like to wait and play it out. Yes, there is a line where things cross into obviously broken, but this slippery slope fallacy that because it exists, then we are allowed to declare models like this as broken before they are even released. Learn how to formulate an argument that doesn't hinge off logical fallacies. Similar to the Solitaire, people saw it and declared it to be OP, and undercosted. But gasp, look at that - solitaire isn't tearing up the meta and nobody cares about it anymore, because you can only spend 100pts of your army on Solitaire, and the other limitations of the army held in back. Even Aeldari soup it's not that popular. Similar to that, you can only spend 180pts of your army on Kelermorph, and ONLY then if you completely give up all soup options, something you yourself said was going to be one of their other strengths. Even then, you probably don't want to run more than 2 because that would be bad, and even then, it's only going to have impact against a certain type of list. This hyperbole that deciding things like this are going to be broken before the dex isn't even released has got to stop, it's unbelievably embarrassing.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
He comes down and kills 4.5 Orks by shooting at chaff. That's not even HALF his cost. Then he's a shooty Gaurdsmen within charge range of Orkz. There's literally zero reason you shouldn't have "any options" to counter play against that as Orkz. It's posts like this that do nothing but convince me you are playing this game at the lowest level possible. It's possible the Kelermorph comes out and does end up being broken, my only stance is that we don't know, but if he is, it's definitely not for the casual reasons you describe it
An Actual Englishman wrote: As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
And here's what Geoff, someone who has actually played the dex for months now, thinks about the Bikes.
Not only does he think that they are the worst unit in the dex, he thinks they are one of the worst units in the game.
Now maybe he's wrong, maybe you're wrong. We'll see in time when the dex comes out. Either way, it's an excellent example of how you don't really have the knowledge as player right now to be calling things busted, or OP, and act as though it's the gospel. EVEN GEOFF after months of playing, and at a much higher level of play than yourself, says that he doesn't have the knowledge on such things and that we'll have to see how it evolves and he'd love to be wrong. Wait till we've all actually played the dex and seen how it competes and interacts with others. Shouldn't be that outlandish a statement, but apparently we're doing overtime on scrubbiness here on dakka these days.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 00:59:39
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
the_scotsman wrote: I will definitely give you one thing though, complainers of dakka: Kellermorph is almost certainly too good for his points. I'd even say far too good. Luckily there will only ever be 3 of him, more often 2.
Glad to see you are no longer defending him and calling us all nuts! And that relic pistol, yikes.
Only think more bonkers is the models, hard to resist the army, it's really cool looking. I just have way too many projects in the line.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
Yup. It's an overkill gun. Will I defend the existence of this relic when it costs as much as Cawl's Wrath?
Why yes. Yes I will. The character it's on is nuts - the gun is not.
Amazing logic. It's fine because Cawls Wrath is broken.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Not saying he's wrong about the bikes, but I doubt he's been playing the codex at all, since he keeps referring to Genestealers with Cult Creed buffs.
He's been having a ton of games, he's described a lot of things from them, and a lot of his findings. I, unlike many of the other players on here making snapjudgements, watched the full 2 and a half hour video from the one person who has actually been playing this dex to see what he'd learnt in his time with it - for example his initial opinions on the Sanctus completely changed after playtesting, off top of my head. He thinks the Kelermorph is real good too - didn't use the word OP or any synonym for it either though, where as he did have use for it elsewhere in the review. Most reviewers missed the part about Purestrains missing out on Cult bonuses, it's tucked away on the very bottom corner of one of the back pages, seems Geoff just made a mistake there, not difficult one to make. I don't think he made any mistake in his playing of the bikes.
Again I'm not saying he's right or wrong about the bikes either, I'm saying it's an excellent example of why you might not actually know what you think you know, and it's fine to speculate, but maybe wait till you've actually played these units before acting like others are in denial.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 01:15:13
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
This is an absurdly false comparison. 100W 1 pt 2+++ models. That model has NOT been printed. NOBODY thinks that this could potentially turn out not to be crazy. There was NO member of the playtest team that finished playing this model and said "yeah, fair". The Kelermorph however, you can quite practically see how they could think all these things, and I'd like to wait and play it out. Yes, there is a line where things cross into obviously broken, but this slippery slope fallacy that because it exists, then we are allowed to declare models like this as broken before they are even released. Learn how to formulate an argument that doesn't hinge off logical fallacies. Similar to the Solitaire, people saw it and declared it to be OP, and undercosted. But gasp, look at that - solitaire isn't tearing up the meta and nobody cares about it anymore, because you can only spend 100pts of your army on Solitaire, and the other limitations of the army held in back. Even Aeldari soup it's not that popular. Similar to that, you can only spend 180pts of your army on Kelermorph, and ONLY then if you completely give up all soup options, something you yourself said was going to be one of their other strengths. Even then, you probably don't want to run more than 2 because that would be bad, and even then, it's only going to have impact against a certain type of list. This hyperbole that deciding things like this are going to be broken before the dex isn't even released has got to stop, it's unbelievably embarrassing.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
He comes down and kills 4.5 Orks by shooting at chaff. That's not even HALF his cost. Then he's a shooty Gaurdsmen within charge range of Orkz. There's literally zero reason you shouldn't have "any options" to counter play against that as Orkz. It's posts like this that do nothing but convince me you are playing this game at the lowest level possible. It's possible the Kelermorph comes out and does end up being broken, my only stance is that we don't know, but if he is, it's definitely not for the casual reasons you describe it
An Actual Englishman wrote: As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
And here's what Geoff, someone who has actually played the dex for months now, thinks about the Bikes.
Not only does he think that they are the worst unit in the dex, he thinks they are one of the worst units in the game.
Now maybe he's wrong, maybe you're wrong. We'll see in time when the dex comes out. Either way, it's an excellent example of how you don't really have the knowledge as player right now to be calling things busted, or OP, and act as though it's the gospel. EVEN GEOFF after months of playing, and at a much higher level of play than yourself, says that he doesn't have the knowledge on such things and that we'll have to see how it evolves and he'd love to be wrong. Wait till we've all actually played the dex and seen how it competes and interacts with others. Shouldn't be that outlandish a statement, but apparently we're doing overtime on scrubbiness here on dakka these days.
Are you choosing to miss the point of his hypothetical unit in this thought exercise on purpose?
He asked a question and you basically ignored it. The premise is that a placing a limit on how many of a broken unit you can take doesn't fix the problem because the unit we are talking about is still broken. Can you deny this, yes or no?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm just waiting for one of the Cult apologists to defend the relic Pistol.
Hey it is just 1 more shot and conditioned torwards charachters, surely it won't be a problem if you can reroll 3/7 shots that further generate shots if they hit.
/
Jokes aside the 1 more shot /2 more if we really want to talk about is just meh, the dude is insane allready without it for his intended role, with it is kinda Overkill.
I would rather pick another relic, because the kelemorph certainly does not need it to be effective.
Yup. It's an overkill gun. Will I defend the existence of this relic when it costs as much as Cawl's Wrath?
Why yes. Yes I will. The character it's on is nuts - the gun is not.
Amazing logic. It's fine because Cawls Wrath is broken.
Uh, no. i'ts fine because it's a pistol used to make a 60pt model slightly more valuable. Relics exist that can buff 1000pts of models, relics that increase the damage output of superheavies by the same percentage, and relics that make 150-200 point melee models deal 6-7 additional wounds.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
This is an absurdly false comparison. 100W 1 pt 2+++ models. That model has NOT been printed. NOBODY thinks that this could potentially turn out not to be crazy. There was NO member of the playtest team that finished playing this model and said "yeah, fair". The Kelermorph however, you can quite practically see how they could think all these things, and I'd like to wait and play it out. Yes, there is a line where things cross into obviously broken, but this slippery slope fallacy that because it exists, then we are allowed to declare models like this as broken before they are even released. Learn how to formulate an argument that doesn't hinge off logical fallacies. Similar to the Solitaire, people saw it and declared it to be OP, and undercosted. But gasp, look at that - solitaire isn't tearing up the meta and nobody cares about it anymore, because you can only spend 100pts of your army on Solitaire, and the other limitations of the army held in back. Even Aeldari soup it's not that popular. Similar to that, you can only spend 180pts of your army on Kelermorph, and ONLY then if you completely give up all soup options, something you yourself said was going to be one of their other strengths. Even then, you probably don't want to run more than 2 because that would be bad, and even then, it's only going to have impact against a certain type of list. This hyperbole that deciding things like this are going to be broken before the dex isn't even released has got to stop, it's unbelievably embarrassing.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
He comes down and kills 4.5 Orks by shooting at chaff. That's not even HALF his cost. Then he's a shooty Gaurdsmen within charge range of Orkz. There's literally zero reason you shouldn't have "any options" to counter play against that as Orkz. It's posts like this that do nothing but convince me you are playing this game at the lowest level possible. It's possible the Kelermorph comes out and does end up being broken, my only stance is that we don't know, but if he is, it's definitely not for the casual reasons you describe it
An Actual Englishman wrote: As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
And here's what Geoff, someone who has actually played the dex for months now, thinks about the Bikes.
Not only does he think that they are the worst unit in the dex, he thinks they are one of the worst units in the game.
Now maybe he's wrong, maybe you're wrong. We'll see in time when the dex comes out. Either way, it's an excellent example of how you don't really have the knowledge as player right now to be calling things busted, or OP, and act as though it's the gospel. EVEN GEOFF after months of playing, and at a much higher level of play than yourself, says that he doesn't have the knowledge on such things and that we'll have to see how it evolves and he'd love to be wrong. Wait till we've all actually played the dex and seen how it competes and interacts with others. Shouldn't be that outlandish a statement, but apparently we're doing overtime on scrubbiness here on dakka these days.
Are you choosing to miss the point of his hypothetical unit in this thought exercise on purpose?
He asked a question and you basically ignored it. The premise is that a placing a limit on how many of a broken unit you can take doesn't fix the problem because the unit we are talking about is still broken. Can you deny this, yes or no?
There's a difference between "This one unit can take on your entire army," and "This one unit is good."
But as a matter of fact, yes, I dislike the Rule of 3.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
This is an absurdly false comparison. 100W 1 pt 2+++ models. That model has NOT been printed. NOBODY thinks that this could potentially turn out not to be crazy. There was NO member of the playtest team that finished playing this model and said "yeah, fair". The Kelermorph however, you can quite practically see how they could think all these things, and I'd like to wait and play it out. Yes, there is a line where things cross into obviously broken, but this slippery slope fallacy that because it exists, then we are allowed to declare models like this as broken before they are even released. Learn how to formulate an argument that doesn't hinge off logical fallacies. Similar to the Solitaire, people saw it and declared it to be OP, and undercosted. But gasp, look at that - solitaire isn't tearing up the meta and nobody cares about it anymore, because you can only spend 100pts of your army on Solitaire, and the other limitations of the army held in back. Even Aeldari soup it's not that popular. Similar to that, you can only spend 180pts of your army on Kelermorph, and ONLY then if you completely give up all soup options, something you yourself said was going to be one of their other strengths. Even then, you probably don't want to run more than 2 because that would be bad, and even then, it's only going to have impact against a certain type of list. This hyperbole that deciding things like this are going to be broken before the dex isn't even released has got to stop, it's unbelievably embarrassing.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
He comes down and kills 4.5 Orks by shooting at chaff. That's not even HALF his cost. Then he's a shooty Gaurdsmen within charge range of Orkz. There's literally zero reason you shouldn't have "any options" to counter play against that as Orkz. It's posts like this that do nothing but convince me you are playing this game at the lowest level possible. It's possible the Kelermorph comes out and does end up being broken, my only stance is that we don't know, but if he is, it's definitely not for the casual reasons you describe it
An Actual Englishman wrote: As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
And here's what Geoff, someone who has actually played the dex for months now, thinks about the Bikes.
Not only does he think that they are the worst unit in the dex, he thinks they are one of the worst units in the game.
Now maybe he's wrong, maybe you're wrong. We'll see in time when the dex comes out. Either way, it's an excellent example of how you don't really have the knowledge as player right now to be calling things busted, or OP, and act as though it's the gospel. EVEN GEOFF after months of playing, and at a much higher level of play than yourself, says that he doesn't have the knowledge on such things and that we'll have to see how it evolves and he'd love to be wrong. Wait till we've all actually played the dex and seen how it competes and interacts with others. Shouldn't be that outlandish a statement, but apparently we're doing overtime on scrubbiness here on dakka these days.
Are you choosing to miss the point of his hypothetical unit in this thought exercise on purpose?
He asked a question and you basically ignored it. The premise is that a placing a limit on how many of a broken unit you can take doesn't fix the problem because the unit we are talking about is still broken. Can you deny this, yes or no?
Huh? I completely addressed the "thought experiment" in it's entirety. I said that a unit that does have this is obviously broken. Kelermorph is not 1 pt. He does not have 100 wounds and a 2++. What other answer do you want to that question? I addressed it in full, I even gave other similar examples of units who were limited by numbers that you could include that dakka declared broken on release that did not end up being so. There's a breaking point where it's obviously untested and unbalanced, I made my point pretty clearly that just because there is a line in the sand where something is obviously too much, doesn't mean you get to shift that line all the way down the slope to now including every single unit on release that you don't like the look of. It's far more plausible that the Keler was playtested and deemed not too oppressive. Kelermorph may whiff hard on the meta in it's current state, and what few targets it does hit may just bring an extra screen or two and push him out immediately. It's quite obvious that adding a 100W unkillable monster to your army essentially for free, is not the same thing here. This is a false equivalency. Just because you're joining in on the hyperbole as per usual does not mean you get to ignore what I wrote.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 01:30:34
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Not saying he's wrong about the bikes, but I doubt he's been playing the codex at all, since he keeps referring to Genestealers with Cult Creed buffs.
I mean, there were people who are supposed to be "experienced tournament players" who kept giving Relic of Cadia to Psykers early on...people suck at reading rules or sometimes just downright "interpret" things their way.
