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Not saying he's wrong about the bikes, but I doubt he's been playing the codex at all, since he keeps referring to Genestealers with Cult Creed buffs.
I mean, there were people who are supposed to be "experienced tournament players" who kept giving Relic of Cadia to Psykers early on...people suck at reading rules or sometimes just downright "interpret" things their way.
Let's not rag on Geoff. He missed a single line in a stacked dex, one that is also kinda weird and in an unexpected place. There was stuff in the dex he himself said he wasn't sure how the rules worked, that included all the addition and multiplication to strength on something like an abominant, and whether or not the Chimera's can actually carry GSC units anymore or just the Brood Brother units in the dex. He said sometimes he just isn't sure, and has made mistakes before in the past, so he'll wait for the rest of the community and how they decide it works and play it like that. He made a small mistake in reading the codex, no biggie.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Let's not rag on Geoff. He missed a single line in a stacked dex, one that is also kinda weird and in an unexpected place. There was stuff in the dex he himself said he wasn't sure how the rules worked, that included all the addition and multiplication to strength on something like an abominant, and whether or not the Chimera's can actually carry GSC units anymore or just the Brood Brother units in the dex. He said sometimes he just isn't sure, and has made mistakes before in the past, so he'll wait for the rest of the community and how they decide it works and play it like that. He made a small mistake in reading the codex, no biggie.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to give him a hard time. I just thought you implied he was involved in playtesting which is where this particular issue would have come up.
Let's not rag on Geoff. He missed a single line in a stacked dex, one that is also kinda weird and in an unexpected place. There was stuff in the dex he himself said he wasn't sure how the rules worked, that included all the addition and multiplication to strength on something like an abominant, and whether or not the Chimera's can actually carry GSC units anymore or just the Brood Brother units in the dex. He said sometimes he just isn't sure, and has made mistakes before in the past, so he'll wait for the rest of the community and how they decide it works and play it like that. He made a small mistake in reading the codex, no biggie.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to give him a hard time. I just thought you implied he was involved in playtesting which is where this particular issue would have come up.
I know, just being clear. And nah, he didn't officially contribute to the playtesting of this dex, that had begun before he was on the playtest team, but because he is part of the team he was given a copy to "playtest" on his own time over the past few months, though he had zero contributions to the development of the dex. Means he probably just played it out with Reece and Frankie vs their multitudes of armies.
I do find it interesting that we know he's been a playtester for so long, and that he contributed to the CA2019 (released September 2018) which he said began before Knight dex was even printed (June 2018), and I'm fairly certain he said he contributed to the Ork Codex (released November 2018), but he said he wasn't on the team when GSC Dex (released February 2019) was started. This seems to read to me that GW isn't necessarily releasing things in order that they finish? Orks probably got pushed ahead for Orktober? CA they promised September and probably had to make that deadline? GSC got pushed back to make way for these things? I dunno. Maybe I'm reading too far into it, but we got information and leaks on Genestealer Cults VERY late if this is the case that development began before all these things, meaning I could quite possibly see an Emperor's Children / World Eaters / whatever else was rumored release suddenly come out of the woodwork any day now.
I've long suspected that a lot of rumors may actually be correct, just that the scheduling plans changed. Like, rumors of upcoming Angron that we heard a while ago. I mean, that guy got some other stuff right, it's possible that the rumor wasn't wrong, just that GW completely changed its schedule? Geoff's statements here seem to at least suggest that their release schedules are very prone to change, no?
Just an interesting tidbit anyway.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 02:08:52
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
Pretty sure the whining is the people saying it is
And what exactly does that have to do with anything that I said? Don't back out now, I'll wait for you to explain yourself why I am apparently responsible for the assertions that other people make.
And I'll go ahead and accept your concession that "dude just stuff em in a transport lol" is not a valid counter to the kelermorph. All I ask in these discussions is that we remain objective and logical.
I'd just put mine behind a transport/tank out of potential LOS and keeping the aura active. Or start him in a transport for first turn and then disembark. I also have Company Veterans that can bodyguard. I could also take a relic for a 2+ save on him if I felt the need.
If you're in a situation where you can both A) keep your character out of LoS behind a vehicle the whole time AND B) still use their 6'' aura on the units that you need to be buffing, then more power to you- but I'd argue that the table won't be so complimentary to you in most real-world conditions.
Bodyguards and excellent invulns will do the job most of the time I think. Not every faction has access to those, though.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 02:50:10
Pretty sure the whining is the people saying it is
And what exactly does that have to do with anything that I said? Don't back out now, I'll wait for you to explain yourself why I am apparently responsible for the assertions that other people make.
I didn't say you said they were broken. I was talking in general, at no point did I name you. If you felt that was about yourself I'm afraid you misunderstood. I was extending from my previous post as my points to you tied into it.
You did however without a doubt directly accuse me of, "whining about it not being broken", which is such a ridiculous statement and I addressed that when I responded.
BlaxicanX wrote: And I'll go ahead and accept your concession that "dude just stuff em in a transport lol" is not a valid counter to the kelermorph. All I ask in these discussions is that we remain objective and logical.
When did I say that was the only counter or the only thing you should do? Transports help give you options here, if you're denying that you're being way too stubborn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/03 03:13:37
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
SHUPPET, 4,5 Ork boyz are more then half his points btw.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Your post treads well past the territory of "disingenuous" into "I thought lies would add some legs to my losing argument." You have posters like Galas right next to you who made the same snap judgements abound an unplayed unit, ADMITTING it was scrubby as hell to do this. I'm sorry but it's a low level mentality.
It really shouldn't be that outlandish to say "can we please play this unit first thx". You act as though I'm saying it couldn't possibly be OP, I'm simply saying there's a ton of counterplay options and your literal theorycraft may be misplaced.
Let me posit something to you and let's see if you can grasp where I'm coming from. Imagine we were to play a game but I want to try some fun House rules for a new unit I made. Let's call em 'Mega, MEGA Nobs!'. They cost 1 point each and have WS/BS 2+, 100W, a 2+++ and take PowaKlaws that are just like regular PowerKlaws but free and add 10 attacks to their profile. I can take 1 per detachment. Would you need to play against such a unit to reckon it might be a little wonky? No? Would it be a low level mentality to believe this? Extrapolate that out.
This is an absurdly false comparison. 100W 1 pt 2+++ models. That model has NOT been printed. NOBODY thinks that this could potentially turn out not to be crazy. There was NO member of the playtest team that finished playing this model and said "yeah, fair". The Kelermorph however, you can quite practically see how they could think all these things, and I'd like to wait and play it out. Yes, there is a line where things cross into obviously broken, but this slippery slope fallacy that because it exists, then we are allowed to declare models like this as broken before they are even released. Learn how to formulate an argument that doesn't hinge off logical fallacies. Similar to the Solitaire, people saw it and declared it to be OP, and undercosted. But gasp, look at that - solitaire isn't tearing up the meta and nobody cares about it anymore, because you can only spend 100pts of your army on Solitaire, and the other limitations of the army held in back. Even Aeldari soup it's not that popular. Similar to that, you can only spend 180pts of your army on Kelermorph, and ONLY then if you completely give up all soup options, something you yourself said was going to be one of their other strengths. Even then, you probably don't want to run more than 2 because that would be bad, and even then, it's only going to have impact against a certain type of list. This hyperbole that deciding things like this are going to be broken before the dex isn't even released has got to stop, it's unbelievably embarrassing.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Please do tell me the counterplay options I have as an Ork player to this dude who can delete most my characters at will, can innately DS, when he shoots chaff he still makes his points back and he effectively has double wounds because on a 4+ (or 2+ if bodyguarded) he has free grot shields that also work in cqc? " Put your characters in a transport" is not counterplay, its hamstringing.
He comes down and kills 4.5 Orks by shooting at chaff. That's not even HALF his cost. Then he's a shooty Gaurdsmen within charge range of Orkz. There's literally zero reason you shouldn't have "any options" to counter play against that as Orkz. It's posts like this that do nothing but convince me you are playing this game at the lowest level possible. It's possible the Kelermorph comes out and does end up being broken, my only stance is that we don't know, but if he is, it's definitely not for the casual reasons you describe it
An Actual Englishman wrote: As for the bikes? I would pay 10ppm for a T4, 5+, 2W model with 14" move and -1 to hit vs shooting. All day. Compare them to a Boy, for 3 points they get a better save, 9" extra move, a wound, better BS (but worse WS so its a wash), -1 to hit GS ranged, innate DS/ambush. Boys get an extra S4 attack (or 2 if over 20, 3 if choppas) and morale mitigation (if they survive). Not to mention traits and stratagems. They're a gem.
And here's what Geoff, someone who has actually played the dex for months now, thinks about the Bikes.
Not only does he think that they are the worst unit in the dex, he thinks they are one of the worst units in the game.
Now maybe he's wrong, maybe you're wrong. We'll see in time when the dex comes out. Either way, it's an excellent example of how you don't really have the knowledge as player right now to be calling things busted, or OP, and act as though it's the gospel. EVEN GEOFF after months of playing, and at a much higher level of play than yourself, says that he doesn't have the knowledge on such things and that we'll have to see how it evolves and he'd love to be wrong. Wait till we've all actually played the dex and seen how it competes and interacts with others. Shouldn't be that outlandish a statement, but apparently we're doing overtime on scrubbiness here on dakka these days.
Are you choosing to miss the point of his hypothetical unit in this thought exercise on purpose?
He asked a question and you basically ignored it. The premise is that a placing a limit on how many of a broken unit you can take doesn't fix the problem because the unit we are talking about is still broken. Can you deny this, yes or no?
He's gone into full straw man mode. Apparently I'm a 'low tier' or bad player for believing something is obviously too good for its cost before its release.
Shuppet you have yet to offer counterplay to the unit with Orks. He's not 'just a shooty Guardsman' within charge range of Orks because he will inevitably have bodyguards of some description. If he can target the Boys he can target the warboss who will be desperately needed in combat. Contrary to your straw man, incorrect assumptions, I have also watched Geoff's video. I heard him state that he had no input into this codex, that he has played a few games (not a lot), wax lyrical about how he would have loved to keep the old Cult Ambush but that wouldn't be 'fun for your opponents', that he considers Acolytes and Abominants to be too cheap. I hate to tell you but he is biased. He plays the army. Just like you it would seem. Yea I can wait to have my suspicions confirmed but there is literally nothing you can say that is going to stop me having an opinion on something and the fact that you think its 'scrubby' to do so is ridiculous.
E2 - Also Shuppet for every unit that 'dakka got wrong' in terms of effectiveness (or not) you realise there's 10-15 others that dakka got spot on yea? You are using the exception to try and prove a rule that is completely false.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 09:37:50
Stux wrote: I'm assuming at this point if we're comparing points of units killed we have confirmation on his wargear cost right?
0, he pays nothing additionally for his guns, it seems.
He here is your noncypher relic autostub pistol. Yes you can buy in bulk if you buy 2 you get a 3rd for free. Somewhere in a underhive a Kelermorph is procuring pistols.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Stux wrote: I'm assuming at this point if we're comparing points of units killed we have confirmation on his wargear cost right?
0, he pays nothing additionally for his guns, it seems.
He here is your noncypher relic autostub pistol. Yes you can buy in bulk if you buy 2 you get a 3rd for free. Somewhere in a underhive a Kelermorph is procuring pistols.
When you say "it seems", does that mean a reliable leak? Or people are assuming?
I mean it probably is 0 in all honesty, because it's a unique weapon for one unit who has to take it. But I just want to be sure!
Stux wrote: I'm assuming at this point if we're comparing points of units killed we have confirmation on his wargear cost right?
0, he pays nothing additionally for his guns, it seems.
He here is your noncypher relic autostub pistol. Yes you can buy in bulk if you buy 2 you get a 3rd for free. Somewhere in a underhive a Kelermorph is procuring pistols.
When you say "it seems", does that mean a reliable leak? Or people are assuming?
I mean it probably is 0 in all honesty, because it's a unique weapon for one unit who has to take it. But I just want to be sure!
in any review there was nothing stated beyond that he costs 60 pts.
So 0 for the guns.
In essence that is a dude with 3 x Cyphers unique boltpistol in stubpistol form, and the option to get a even better stubpistol compared to cyphers boltpistol as a relic.
He is one of the only charachters in game that can make his cost back by simply shooting chaff units and he isn't even to bad at it. Need a hole in a screen to reach that darn knight? He will wipe out a 10 man ig squad no worries.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Stux wrote: I'm assuming at this point if we're comparing points of units killed we have confirmation on his wargear cost right?
0, he pays nothing additionally for his guns, it seems.
He here is your noncypher relic autostub pistol. Yes you can buy in bulk if you buy 2 you get a 3rd for free. Somewhere in a underhive a Kelermorph is procuring pistols.
When you say "it seems", does that mean a reliable leak? Or people are assuming?
I mean it probably is 0 in all honesty, because it's a unique weapon for one unit who has to take it. But I just want to be sure!
Check this part of his review for all the relevant stuff
1hour 22 mins 30 seconds. approx.
"He is 60 pts"
"Going to run atleast 1 more likely 2"
What was that Shuppet, not shooting at screens with him?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I don't think you can counter-play a model this good. Say he can't get a 150% return by killing a character worth 90-100 points immediately due to screening (or you just don't take such characters)? Okay - but if he can get 50% return versus troops he's still not done badly for his points. Point him at any infantry more elite and have fun.
In fact he's cost effective versus a lot of vehicles (sub T8) because he is so underpriced.
You go kill him and any screen he's with? Fine, but I'm only down 60 points. I've got plenty more stuff.
With that said some of this feels exaggerated. He is overpowered, but his impact on a game is going to be limited. If he kills 35-60 points a turn say thats a very efficient use of 60 points - but it is still only 60 points. Its not like a Castelan running hot and killing 400-600 points in a turn - often ending the game right there.
6 shots at BS2+ = 5 hits exploding hits = 4.166 more hits
9.166 hits at S4 vs T4 saves = 4.58 wounds. No save.
4 boys = 28 pts, 5 = 35 pts. He's a 60 pt model. You're absolutely right, my math was out by 3 pts, it averages 2 pts higher than HALF his point cost.
My underlying point remains exactly the same. Englishman is factually wrong with statements like "vs Orks when he comes down and shoots chaff he still makes his points back".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/03 10:30:39
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
My underlying point remains exactly the same. Englishman is factually wrong with statements like "vs Orks when he comes down and shoots chaff he still makes his points back".
This seems to be your problem, you're not actually reading what I'm writing. I never said he comes down and immediately makes his points back shooting chaff. He does so in 2 turns. This is all if he doesn't shoot the Warboss/pain boy/Big Mek/Weird boy for some insane reason (in which case his points are immediately returned) when he enters play.
6 shots at BS2+ = 5 hits
exploding hits = 4.166 more hits
9.166 hits at S4 vs T4 saves = 4.58 wounds. No save.
4 boys = 28 pts, 5 = 35 pts. He's a 60 pt model. You're absolutely right, my math was out by 3 pts, it averages 2 pts higher than HALF his point cost.
My underlying point remains exactly the same. Englishman is factually wrong with statements like "vs Orks when he comes down and shoots chaff he still makes his points back".
"he dosen't even make half his points back"
You don't get it do you, USE 1 pistol to SHOOT at CHAFF to get REROLL 1's.....
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Cypher is a single dude with no access to support of any kind going on a hobo adventure across space. He uses regular bolt shells for his really old gun that he steals from Marines when no one is looking.
Kellermorphs have the support of entire global networks including the workers that create the weapons of the Imperium. He uses special bullets made out of refined nonsense metals that kill extra hard.
Can we please stifle the Cypher vs Kellermorph nonsense? If you’re going to complain about the new guy being too good with fluff, at least use someone more comparable, like a Vindicare assassin.
Badablack wrote: Cypher is a single dude with no access to support of any kind going on a hobo adventure across space. He uses regular bolt shells for his really old gun that he steals from Marines when no one is looking.
Kellermorphs have the support of entire global networks including the workers that create the weapons of the Imperium. He uses special bullets made out of refined nonsense metals that kill extra hard.
Can we please stifle the Cypher vs Kellermorph nonsense? If you’re going to complain about the new guy being too good with fluff, at least use someone more comparable, like a Vindicare assassin.
Because a stubpistol should even be in the same bracket as any boltpistol?
Can i also get a relic Autogun for my cultists? Preferable rapid 3 s4 ap-1 d2?
Wouldn't you also question that?
Also a vindicare assasin? really.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/03 10:45:53
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Badablack wrote: Can we please stifle the Cypher vs Kellermorph nonsense? If you’re going to complain about the new guy being too good with fluff, at least use someone more comparable, like a Vindicare assassin.
...when comparing things to a gunslinger models, a sniper is more appropriate than another gunslinger?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
He's gone into full straw man mode. Apparently I'm a 'low tier' or bad player for believing something is obviously too good for its cost before its release.
Shuppet you have yet to offer counterplay to the unit with Orks.
I've done it, you've just ignored it in favor of whining about it instead, and making hyperbolic, kneejerk declarations.
An Actual Englishman wrote: He's not 'just a shooty Guardsman' within charge range of Orks because he will inevitably have bodyguards of some description.
He's a shooty Guardsmen with body guards, deployed in front of a horde of Orkz. Why would you not be assaulting everything there? Why would you not be dakka'ing the screen?
An Actual Englishman wrote: If he can target the Boys he can target the warboss who will be desperately needed in combat.
Errr.... You... really don't understand the concept of a screen do you?
An Actual Englishman wrote: IContrary to your straw man, incorrect assumptions, I have also watched Geoff's video. I heard him state that he had no input into this codex, that he has played a few games (not a lot), wax lyrical about how he would have loved to keep the old Cult Ambush but that wouldn't be 'fun for your opponents', that he considers Acolytes and Abominants to be too cheap. I hate to tell you but he is biased. He plays the army. Just like you it would seem.
By your description he's biased against the dex, not in favor of it? It sounds like all the things you claim hes said are talk of things being too strong, not too weak? How is this supporting your point?
Regardless, I stress "claim" anyway, because I didn't hear barely any of that stuff at all, that sounds like some very generous interpretations, or chinese whispers. I can happily source timestamp any thing I claimed he said. Can you please timestamp the bits where he said he has only played a few games and not a lot? Can you please timestamp where he said the old Cult Ambush wouldn't be fun for your opponents? (You won't.)
An Actual Englishman wrote: Yea I can wait to have my suspicions confirmed but there is literally nothing you can say that is going to stop me having an opinion on something and the fact that you think its 'scrubby' to do so is ridiculous.
E2 - Also Shuppet for every unit that 'dakka got wrong' in terms of effectiveness (or not) you realise there's 10-15 others that dakka got spot on yea? You are using the exception to try and prove a rule that is completely false.
The fact that dakka got even one unit wrong at all (there's been many upon many but lets not get into that) is exactly why you need to WAIT TO PLAY THE UNIT BEFORE TRYING TO REBALANCE THE GAME. You are one of the most reactionary posters on this site man. You constantly make claims that things you have a very vague understanding of, are OP, and need to be rebalanced. You undeniably have a very vague understanding of this, because those who have already played dex, who compete at a high level, also admit to not fully knowing how good these things are going to be. Why do you think you know well enough? You constantly whine about Orks being to weak. You have the nerve to accuse other people of bias, even when they have said the exact same thing about other armies they don't play - YOUR ONE INCLUDED. Please stop butchering the term strawman - you apparently have an even vaguer understanding of what that means than you do of game concepts.
Take a step back - take a breather - get off the keyboard and go out and play some games. Build your knowledge a bit better. Wait for this dex to be released before doomsaying about a unit that you haven't even played against. You don't understand the concept of a screen, so I'm quite certain that you're right, and you are still going to get utterly demolished by anyone even running one of these 60 point units, but that's okay - at least then you can describe what actually happened in your play, and people can help you level up past it. This unit may very well be powerful, but it also may very well not have the impact on the competitive scene that you believe it will. You're more than entitled to your speculation, but you need to recognise it as such, and when you start decrying that everyone is bias'd for not agreeing with you that this thing is broken before the dex even drops, then you're just being overly reactionary, and that's about the status quo on Dakka when it comes to new releases.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 11:50:12
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
My underlying point remains exactly the same. Englishman is factually wrong with statements like "vs Orks when he comes down and shoots chaff he still makes his points back".
This seems to be your problem, you're not actually reading what I'm writing. I never said he comes down and immediately makes his points back shooting chaff. He does so in 2 turns. This is all if he doesn't shoot the Warboss/pain boy/Big Mek/Weird boy for some insane reason (in which case his points are immediately returned) when he enters play.
"You're not actually reading what I'm writing"
Quite an entertaining choice of words, from a guy who still has yet to address the concept of the iconic horde army using a screen to block a model with 12" range on his guns from blasting at their Warlord. Hell you fell right back on it again in the next sentence here.
I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. Englishman has decided this unit is broken, and that's it, no more discussion on how or why that might not be the case, if you think we should wait and see how it turns out, you're clearly biased and in denial. "We can't afford to wait to PLAY this unit before complaining, because that means it might take till CA2019 to see it nerfed!". Totally measured opinion, not reactionary at all.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 11:22:01
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
He actually right though.
At mere 60 points, with the rules he's got, he's not only overpowered, he's in bad taste.
A regular nobody face in the crowd shouldnt put the named protagonist/antagonist characters in what he can do, especially not for mere 60 points, that's the realm of a minor basic infantry unit, not a gamchanging hero.
Had he been a unique named character or was up for debate, but as a regular mook, he's way over the top.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
BoomWolf wrote: He actually right though. At mere 60 points, with the rules he's got, he's not only overpowered, he's in bad taste.
A regular nobody face in the crowd shouldnt put the named protagonist/antagonist characters in what he can do, especially not for mere 60 points, that's the realm of a minor basic infantry unit, not a gamchanging hero.
Had he been a unique named character or was up for debate, but as a regular mook, he's way over the top.
Aye I'm going to agree with you on the second part. I think I was one of the first people saying here that I really dislike the flavor of his rules. It clashes with whats established, this guy shouldn't be outshooting the kind of units he is or holding the sort of guns he owns, thematically. Doesn't mean it's time to declare him as OP though, they just missed the flavor, we'll see how strong he is when we play him, just like every other unit that the hivemind has been "sure" about before.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/03 11:21:03
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
BoomWolf wrote: He actually right though.
At mere 60 points, with the rules he's got, he's not only overpowered, he's in bad taste.
A regular nobody face in the crowd shouldnt put the named protagonist/antagonist characters in what he can do, especially not for mere 60 points, that's the realm of a minor basic infantry unit, not a gamchanging hero.
Had he been a unique named character or was up for debate, but as a regular mook, he's way over the top.
Cypher has been trash the whole edition though. That isn't an argument for nerfing the Keller, is an argument for buffing Cypher.
Keller is strong, no one is denying that. But we don't know how strong honestly. I've been saying this since the start of this thread, but I'm with Shuppet that I am certain he will prove far easier to screen out than people think.
And this isn't even forcing your opponent to play differently. GSC have so many ways of deepstriking you that people will be carefully screening against them regardless.
SHUPPET wrote: "You're not actually reading what I'm writing"
Quite an entertaining choice of words, from a guy who still has yet to address the concept of the iconic horde army using a screen to block a model with 12" range on his guns from blasting at their Warlord. Hell you fell right back on it again in the next sentence here.
I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. Englishman has decided this unit is broken, and that's it, no more discussion on how or why that might not be the case, if you think we should wait and see how it turns out, you're clearly biased and in denial. "We can't afford to wait to PLAY this unit before complaining, because that means it might take till CA2019 to see it nerfed!". Totally not kneejerky at all.
Please show me where I said the unit is 'broken' or 'OP'? I'll wait. I can tell you the unit is extremely points efficient and because of that it is strong. I said in an earlier post " Strong does not equal OP." Again - read my posts.
Its not 'kneejerky' to think that a unit should be pointed appropriately for what it can do. This unit is hyper efficient. It has been proven without taking into account the buff he provides other units. The unit might not get taken. It may have no synergies with other units/armies/play styles. Regardless I think it should be pointed correctly. A unit doesn't have to be 'meta' to be underpriced.
As to your first point, I don't know if you've played with or against Orks ever but generally our horde is a melee horde. Orks also have the slowest infantry in the game, including our warboss who in almost evert situation you want to get into combat. If he's lingering at the back of a group of Boys he likely won't get into combat and thus is worthless. Hiding a melee beatstick behind chaff is not a counter. Again, its a hamstring.
The true counter I suspect is to take the Boss on Bike (assuming index allowed) who has T5 and can negotiate a screen if he needs be. The problem then is that Painboyz and Mek's on bikes are hideously overcosted and all of these options are index only (so may be disallowed in some tournaments). Not exactly ideal.
E - just read your post that you edited 4 times so I didn't get a chance to see it before I had posted this and gone off to do other things. I'm getting real tired of your idiotic strawman argument. Enough. I consider myself a decent player not that I have anything to prove to you because I'm entitled to an opinion either way. Looks like you've gone into full on survivor mode now. "We need to play with our mega strong units to see if they are mega strong" is the excuse of a poor player. It doesn't take much to see that this unit is too efficient. It has been shown repeatedly. And it exists in a book of efficient units. And it buffs itself and other units. No I'm not going to rewatch a video and time stamp it for you. I can assure you he said these things, those you've questioned specifically were at the start of the video. Ironic you cite him as a defence that this unit is balanced when he says they belong in every list. He said something along the lines of 'Take at least 1, I'm taking 2' and tried to justify it by claiming it was because the 'model and fluff is cool'. He also said; 'Don't tell GW this but they (Acolytes) are probably too cheap now'. Finally you might want to take a step back yourself. When you're accusing people of being a certain type of poster here, when you're editing your posts 3 or 4 times after the fact to continually straw man and when you are breaking rule 1 its time to ease off.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/03 15:47:24
BoomWolf wrote: He actually right though.
At mere 60 points, with the rules he's got, he's not only overpowered, he's in bad taste.
A regular nobody face in the crowd shouldnt put the named protagonist/antagonist characters in what he can do, especially not for mere 60 points, that's the realm of a minor basic infantry unit, not a gamchanging hero.
Had he been a unique named character or was up for debate, but as a regular mook, he's way over the top.
Cypher has been trash the whole edition though. That isn't an argument for nerfing the Keller, is an argument for buffing Cypher.
Keller is strong, no one is denying that. But we don't know how strong honestly. I've been saying this since the start of this thread, but I'm with Shuppet that I am certain he will prove far easier to screen out than people think.
And this isn't even forcing your opponent to play differently. GSC have so many ways of deepstriking you that people will be carefully screening against them regardless.
When exactly did I mention cypher?
The parallel is clear, but its not about him.
The kelermorph puts MOST named characters to shame, and I'm not talking just about game power level (where he still punks dudes double his price with ease) but in the apperance of his effects.
Shooting 6-12 (usually 10) S4 Ap-1 D2 shots is not something that SHOULD be on a minor 60 points dude.
His pistols are way beyond anything that is fluffly right for someone of his "rank" to have. these are SM relic level pistols-they are IDENTICAL to the IF relic pistol! and he has three of them!?
If his pistols were 1D, he MIGHT be acceptable. but as he is-its absurd. and I didn't even go into game balance right.
And when you look at game balance, yet again he's outright broken. 60 points for his level of firepower is already probably too much.
60 points for that level of firepower when you can deepstrike, and directly target characters if you manage to sneak into range, plus providing an aura on top of it all? that's just ridiculous.
He's an assassin, chaff clearer and buffbot rolled into one-while costing about what a unit doing only one of the tree costs at the lower end.
If anyone would make anything even remotely like this in homebrew sections people would wail on them for marry-sueing and making blatantly OP stuff for their army.
There is no question if its OP or not, just if its "OP enough to take 3 every list" or "OP enough to single-handedly break the game"
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
What was that Shuppet, not shooting at screens with him?
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 