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catbarf wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:So, nothing that justifies imo that his pistols are S4.
Great.

BertBert wrote:The weapons profile is still wildly out of place and inconsistent with established lore and other weapon profiles.

Step 1: Chamber a pistol in the same caliber fired by a heavy stubber. GSC have tons of those. That makes a S4 gun.

Step 2: Hand-load consecrated grimdark magic bullets. That makes D2.

Step 3: There is no step 3. That is the entire sequence of logic needed to justify the statline. It's a high-caliber pistol with special bullets. It's the same strength as the bolt pistol carried by every podunk officer in the Imperium, but with D2 because it's a master-crafted weapon with supernatural ammunition wielded by an inhumanly good marksman. What about that is inconsistent with the rest of the game?

Is this one of those 'xenos shouldn't ever have better stuff than my marines' things? Like I get how the fact that he has three of them and special rules to allow him to delete a character can be a balance concern, but complaining about pistols being S4? Really?

1. We are still talking about stub pistols, you know. Not even a Autopistol,off which several versions exist which would fit better.

2. The bullets are not the issue. See Ripperpistol which is an Autopistol,btw.
Edit: not to mention that Ripper Pistols would make sense in such a high aquirable quantity.

"This modified Autopistol fires specially designed armour-piercing metal shards containing a vicious cocktail of venomous chemicals with deadly accuracy. The initial wounds caused by the shards allow the venom to enter the victim's bloodstream and cause death, and thus the weapon can bring down the largest opponents in a single shot. It is designed so that if the vicious impact of the bullet doesn’t kill the target, the poisons flooding into its bloodstream will. Often, they are the final word in terminal close encounters. Ripper Pistol is favoured by those who venture into hostile jungle planets and Death Worlds.[4][8]"

See this:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Autopistol

Jeans Dealer

Ah, that gave me a good chuckle.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Imperial Guard would be able to use it if they wanted every phase as they can comfortably fill up a Brigade with no trash units and a Battalion on top of it. Also don't forget they have allies that want to use their CP whereas Cults don't have that many ally options.

So who cares if they spend 2CP to make sure the character is dead? They already have at minimum 15CP.

Cults have plenty of things competing for those CPs/stratagems.

That 2cp strat yu used to get keller past a screen could have been used to get 20 hand flamers in range to shoot out of deep strike.

That 3CP strat that makes him shoot twice can be used to make 20 neophytes double tap.

The only thing that really can be repeated is the vect strat because it doesn't have the fAQ nerf that they put on the dark eldar's version of it (yet, we will see after the 2-week FAQ) because your opponent is unlikely to have any other stratagems they want to use in your movement phase.

This thread kind of reads like a bunch of people who've been throwing Rock for two years, and are suddenly upset when someone shows up with Paper. My advise? Bring Scissors.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don't know that he's going to be so easy to use.

Can't readily deploy within 9" of the enemy. Only has short ranged pistols. Without forethought, he may struggle to get to any 'worth it' targets - especially against an opponent that knows to keep an eye out for him.

He's soft, squishy and fragile, so is going to take finesse to be effective against characters.

Me? I think he's an excellent objective sweeper. Let him open up, do some damage. Boost up other incoming firepower, and let something else claim the objective after an assault. And that is where I think he'll be the real threat. Characters? I'll use the Assassin and the Biker Chick. Nobble them from further away.

He's very easy to use. All GSC need to do is pick off things that might get in his way. As the game progresses there are fewer and fewer units to shield with and fewer still if you want to actually control objectives.

A supreme of devourer tyrants and two GSC detachments each with a KM. Save some aberrants for turn 3 when you get to charge knights. Stick a Locus near the relic KM to HI and fight first with 4 WS2 S4 AP3 D2 attacks.

Anyone who thinks he's ok at 60 is nuts. Bare minimum of 90 or D1 weapons is required.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don't know that he's going to be so easy to use.

Can't readily deploy within 9" of the enemy. Only has short ranged pistols. Without forethought, he may struggle to get to any 'worth it' targets - especially against an opponent that knows to keep an eye out for him.

He's soft, squishy and fragile, so is going to take finesse to be effective against characters.

Me? I think he's an excellent objective sweeper. Let him open up, do some damage. Boost up other incoming firepower, and let something else claim the objective after an assault. And that is where I think he'll be the real threat. Characters? I'll use the Assassin and the Biker Chick. Nobble them from further away.

He's very easy to use. All GSC need to do is pick off things that might get in his way. As the game progresses there are fewer and fewer units to shield with and fewer still if you want to actually control objectives.

A supreme of devourer tyrants and two GSC detachments each with a KM. Save some aberrants for turn 3 when you get to charge knights. Stick a Locus near the relic KM to HI and fight first with 4 WS2 S4 AP3 D2 attacks.

Anyone who thinks he's ok at 60 is nuts. Bare minimum of 90 or D1 weapons is required.

He's not OK at 60, and you'll see earlier in the thread where I say I'd rather see him at 90 or 100 points. I think at 60 with D1 weapons he'd be a pointless never-include because he'd never successfully kill a character worth anywhere near his points value. He'd be the same as every other neutered to hell sniper/character assassin in the game who can never get past the huge wall of wounds and invuln saves 8th ed puts on every character all the way down to weenie 30 point company commanders. People just hate getting assassinated in practically every game that exists, so theyre used to models like that being utterly useless/only effective if you get absurdly lucky.

You can understand that a thing is problematically overcosted without going down the self-pity rabbit hole and believing that there's NEVER a situation where it's possible to use him badly/no way to counter him ever and all you can do is sit and sniffle in the corner over your dead space marine captain.

the_scotsman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Imperial Guard would be able to use it if they wanted every phase as they can comfortably fill up a Brigade with no trash units and a Battalion on top of it. Also don't forget they have allies that want to use their CP whereas Cults don't have that many ally options.

So who cares if they spend 2CP to make sure the character is dead? They already have at minimum 15CP.

Cults have plenty of things competing for those CPs/stratagems.

That 2cp strat yu used to get keller past a screen could have been used to get 20 hand flamers in range to shoot out of deep strike.

That 3CP strat that makes him shoot twice can be used to make 20 neophytes double tap.

The only thing that really can be repeated is the vect strat because it doesn't have the fAQ nerf that they put on the dark eldar's version of it (yet, we will see after the 2-week FAQ) because your opponent is unlikely to have any other stratagems they want to use in your movement phase.

And sure, the Strategems that Blood Angels could use for a larger group of Death Company or Sanguine Guard get used on a single model they throw in as a suicide unit too. What's your point? Larger units make better use of Strategems? That's old news.

the_scotsman wrote:


Cults have plenty of things competing for those CPs/stratagems.

That 2cp strat yu used to get keller past a screen could have been used to get 20 hand flamers in range to shoot out of deep strike.

That 3CP strat that makes him shoot twice can be used to make 20 neophytes double tap.

The only thing that really can be repeated is the vect strat because it doesn't have the fAQ nerf that they put on the dark eldar's version of it (yet, we will see after the 2-week FAQ) because your opponent is unlikely to have any other stratagems they want to use in your movement phase.

But those hand flamer hybrids are 19 points each. 20 of them score 4.4 wounds on MEQ and 13 wounds on GEQ.

The relic KM kills 5 MEQ (or 10 total MEQ wounds) and 10 GEQ (or 20 GEQ wounds).

Why spend almost 400 points to do something that 60 points can do? Even if Hybrid points come down there is no comparison.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Cults have plenty of things competing for those CPs/stratagems.

That 2cp strat yu used to get keller past a screen could have been used to get 20 hand flamers in range to shoot out of deep strike.

That 3CP strat that makes him shoot twice can be used to make 20 neophytes double tap.

The only thing that really can be repeated is the vect strat because it doesn't have the fAQ nerf that they put on the dark eldar's version of it (yet, we will see after the 2-week FAQ) because your opponent is unlikely to have any other stratagems they want to use in your movement phase.

But those hand flamer hybrids are 19 points each. 20 of them score 4.4 wounds on MEQ and 13 wounds on GEQ.

The relic KM kills 5 MEQ (or 10 total MEQ wounds) and 10 GEQ (or 20 GEQ wounds).

Why spend almost 400 points to do something that 60 points can do? Even if Hybrid points come down there is no comparison.

Eh...hehhehehehehehe....hahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha....you haven't seen the rules GSC get for hand flamers....have you.

Yeah no those hand flamer hybrids are 8 points. And they score 8 wounds on MEQs and 23 GEQs.

GSC hand flamers (according to video reviews anyway, I don't think we have an image of that wargear page) are D6 S3 autohits. And they're 1pt.

the_scotsman wrote:


He's not OK at 60, and you'll see earlier in the thread where I say I'd rather see him at 90 or 100 points. I think at 60 with D1 weapons he'd be a pointless never-include because he'd never successfully kill a character worth anywhere near his points value. He'd be the same as every other neutered to hell sniper/character assassin in the game who can never get past the huge wall of wounds and invuln saves 8th ed puts on every character all the way down to weenie 30 point company commanders. People just hate getting assassinated in practically every game that exists, so theyre used to models like that being utterly useless/only effective if you get absurdly lucky.

You can understand that a thing is problematically overcosted without going down the self-pity rabbit hole and believing that there's NEVER a situation where it's possible to use him badly/no way to counter him ever and all you can do is sit and sniffle in the corner over your dead space marine captain.

I'm as white knight as they come (or so I'm told), but I'm having a really hard time seeing this guy work out in his current setup - even with perfect play. I could have been ok if it weren't for the relic.

We all know 8th is hyper deadly. Lots of stuff is dead by turn 2/3. It gets really hard to cover all the angles. Zooming flyers are great, because they can exploit those holes and go after characters just like this guy will.

So he doesn't need to be on the table until then. What's 60 points tucked away? It's absolutely nothing - especially compared to the out-sized impact it can have. If I lost 10 cultists it wouldn't change the game for me that much. That's the level of investment this guy is.


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the_scotsman wrote:


Eh...hehhehehehehehe....hahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha....you haven't seen the rules GSC get for hand flamers....have you.

Yeah no those hand flamer hybrids are 8 points. And they score 8 wounds on MEQs and 23 GEQs.

GSC hand flamers (according to video reviews anyway, I don't think we have an image of that wargear page) are D6 S3 autohits. And they're 1pt.

Oh jfc...shoot me now.


Ok - I'm going to walk back my defense of power creep from last week. 1pt D6 hand flamers in an army that can deliver them in range is just insane.

I have no idea why GW delayed this book over concerns of ambush being too strong when they should have been looking at the rest of the book...


Oh my god. It's not even 8 base. It's 7 base and 1 point flamers and D6 confirmed. WTF

And they still get 3 WS3 S4 attacks and two of them rending. Good night folks. I just can't even.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


He's not OK at 60, and you'll see earlier in the thread where I say I'd rather see him at 90 or 100 points. I think at 60 with D1 weapons he'd be a pointless never-include because he'd never successfully kill a character worth anywhere near his points value. He'd be the same as every other neutered to hell sniper/character assassin in the game who can never get past the huge wall of wounds and invuln saves 8th ed puts on every character all the way down to weenie 30 point company commanders. People just hate getting assassinated in practically every game that exists, so theyre used to models like that being utterly useless/only effective if you get absurdly lucky.

You can understand that a thing is problematically overcosted without going down the self-pity rabbit hole and believing that there's NEVER a situation where it's possible to use him badly/no way to counter him ever and all you can do is sit and sniffle in the corner over your dead space marine captain.

I'm as white knight as they come (or so I'm told), but I'm having a really hard time seeing this guy work out in his current setup - even with perfect play. I could have been ok if it weren't for the relic.

We all know 8th is hyper deadly. Lots of stuff is dead by turn 2/3. It gets really hard to cover all the angles. Zooming flyers are great, because they can exploit those holes and go after characters just like this guy will.

So he doesn't need to be on the table until then. What's 60 points tucked away? It's absolutely nothing - especially compared to the out-sized impact it can have. If I lost 10 cultists it wouldn't change the game for me that much. That's the level of investment this guy is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:


Eh...hehhehehehehehe....hahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha....you haven't seen the rules GSC get for hand flamers....have you.

Yeah no those hand flamer hybrids are 8 points. And they score 8 wounds on MEQs and 23 GEQs.

GSC hand flamers (according to video reviews anyway, I don't think we have an image of that wargear page) are D6 S3 autohits. And they're 1pt.

Oh jfc...shoot me now.


Ok - I'm going to walk back my defense of power creep from last week. 1pt D6 hand flamers in an army that can deliver them in range is just insane.

I have no idea why GW delayed this book over concerns of ambush being too strong when they should have been looking at the rest of the book...


Oh my god. It's not even 8 base. It's 7 base and 1 point flamers and D6 confirmed. WTF

And this is were even daedalus has a breakdown

I'd like such a handflamer on my raptors, or assult marines?

Heck i'd even take it on terminators.

Not Online!!! wrote:

And this is were even daedalus has a breakdown

I'd like such a handflamer on my raptors, or assult marines?

Heck i'd even take it on terminators.

Unless some stark revelation of some in codex rules or crazy limitation comes to light the community really needs to cast incredible shame onto the playtesters and GW. This is absurdly unacceptable.

Yeah, like I said, 8 points. 1 for the hand flamer.

And here we are, sitting in a 23 page thread about kellermorph.

Not the stratagem about the 20 acolytes that can drop down and use 5cp to get 2" away and shoot twice.

well hey boys at least we have an answer about what kills guardsmen in a points efficient way! That's a 225% points return against guardsmen!

Not Online!!! wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
he's not a strength morph. GSC of similar build can't handle bolters either. There's no real thematic explanation here other than "his revolvers are absurdly strong"

Not Online!!! wrote:
Problem is the fact that he can target charachters and doubles his firerate all by his own.

Other factions would have to pay cp for that.

He may have to lay points for that. Let's not whine about balance and him not costing enough before we've even seen the cost, thanks.

I doubt it, and even if, this dude is more effective then your average csm Lord at 74 ppm or commander at 30.
Against chaff aswell as charachters.

He literally is more effective then a flamer against infantry.

Edit: granted the flamers are gak atm so ehh.
Still this dude with some pistols is better then an dedicated shock and anti infantry weapon at it's Job.

I prolly should edit my comment there to state that all flamers suck except GSC handflamers.

However i also kinda called it, proud of myself.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, like I said, 8 points. 1 for the hand flamer.

And here we are, sitting in a 23 page thread about kellermorph.

Not the stratagem about the 20 acolytes that can drop down and use 5cp to get 2" away and shoot twice.

well hey boys at least we have an answer about what kills guardsmen in a points efficient way! That's a 225% points return against guardsmen!

Well, unfortunately that doesn't make the KM less broken. It just makes acolytes more. Shooting twice almost doesn't even matter with these. And they can vect vect...jesus...

These points have to be out of date. There is just no way. (I'm in the denial stage).

I sincerly hope that soroitas also get that flamer.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, like I said, 8 points. 1 for the hand flamer.

And here we are, sitting in a 23 page thread about kellermorph.

Not the stratagem about the 20 acolytes that can drop down and use 5cp to get 2" away and shoot twice.

well hey boys at least we have an answer about what kills guardsmen in a points efficient way! That's a 225% points return against guardsmen!

Well, unfortunately that doesn't make the KM less broken. It just makes acolytes more. Shooting twice almost doesn't even matter with these. And they can vect vect...jesus...

He, nothing stops you from running both you know?
You really need some CP anyways so why not buy the kelermorph and some other HQ, which are all better then their comparison HQ charachters and some acolytes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aren't burna boyz flamers d3?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Aren't burna boyz flamers d3?

Yes, but they're also power weapons.

What also gets me...5 double shoot demo charges will absolutely cripple a 5++ knight. One of 20 flamers for turn 2. One with 15 flamers and 5 demos for turn 3. Two KMs. And that's like under 500 points.

Yeah 8 points for those hand flamer acolytes is indeed nuts. It'd be pretty good if they were in an army without those "deepstrike" special rules and open topped vehicles. When they have access to both it just makes almost every other flamer unit terrible in comparison. Of course, that's partly because most flamer units are just bad but man did these guys swing in the other direction.

I still think GSC are going to be pretty tricky to play but man do they have some units/tactics that are going to be anti-fun against a lot of players.

Edit: Burna boyz are indeed d3 shots but have ap-2 in CC. However thy only have 2 attacks so they're still not better than a single slugga&choppa boy in CC. And apparently that ap-2 and d3 flamer is worth 5 points, and not being troops. Burna boyz are plain awful

Not Online!!! wrote:
I sincerly hope that soroitas also get that flamer.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, like I said, 8 points. 1 for the hand flamer.

And here we are, sitting in a 23 page thread about kellermorph.

Not the stratagem about the 20 acolytes that can drop down and use 5cp to get 2" away and shoot twice.

well hey boys at least we have an answer about what kills guardsmen in a points efficient way! That's a 225% points return against guardsmen!

Well, unfortunately that doesn't make the KM less broken. It just makes acolytes more. Shooting twice almost doesn't even matter with these. And they can vect vect...jesus...

He, nothing stops you from running both you know?
You really need some CP anyways so why not buy the kelermorph and some other HQ, which are all better then their comparison HQ charachters and some acolytes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aren't burna boyz flamers d3?

Well, keller is not an HQ, and what's stopping you from using both is the fact that you can only use the stratagem to get them close enough to use the flamers on the drop on one squad. You can absolutely hold keller until turn 3 and use him then (after the screen has been deleted by your flamey bois) but at that point I feel like most targets will have been aberrant'd to death anyway. I suppose I'd use one keller just for the odd matchup where he's really good like Chaos Soup but I wouldn't invest relics/whatever into him. Not when I can use my relics to buff aberrants.

GSC in the new codex is just going to be an old-style deep strike alpha list like the on-release tzaangor alpha strike craziness that got us the current wait until turn 2 rules. Aberrants instead of tzaangors to clear chaff followed up by aberrants with tons of buffs filling the role of smashcaptain.

That's what aspect of this release is going to impact the meta. Not Keller, not the jackal alphus, not the psyker sniper guy. They're all sideshows to the deep strike leafblower BS that will make this codex cancer to play against until it gets nerfed into total uselessness again. And everyone who just wants to play dirty revolutionary hivescum will get the fun of another 6 months to a year of their army being utterly unplayable because of the competitive jackasses who ran out and ebayed 80 Deathwatch Overkill Acolytes when GSC first came out and who are probably now as we speak greenstuffing little cylinders on the bottom of all their autopistols to make them hand flamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly the only realistic scenario I can come up with here is that the guy who wrote the rules for the hand flamer and the guy that wrote the points were different guys.

Like they shipped out the master of the codex, clapped their hands together and went

"wow steve, great codex!"

"Yeah, I sure am glad we gave such good QOL buffs to those underused options - with the new rules, a hand flamer will be a legitimate good upgrade to put on a few of your acolytes!"

"Yeah, and at the new points cost, a hand flamer will be a good squad upgrade to give your acolytes a little bit more....shooting...."

"wait..."

"...Did we do both?"

Jeans Dealer

I think this is the winner for today folks! =)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Where are you getting hand flamer hybrids are only 8 points?
Atm I'm seeing 19 points in BS (11 points for the Hybrid & 8 points for the HF).

And yes I'm aware that BS isn't perfect; just seems like a huge difference.

the_scotsman wrote:


Well, keller is not an HQ, and what's stopping you from using both is the fact that you can only use the stratagem to get them close enough to use the flamers on the drop on one squad. You can absolutely hold keller until turn 3 and use him then (after the screen has been deleted by your flamey bois) but at that point I feel like most targets will have been aberrant'd to death anyway. I suppose I'd use one keller just for the odd matchup where he's really good like Chaos Soup but I wouldn't invest relics/whatever into him. Not when I can use my relics to buff aberrants.

GSC in the new codex is just going to be an old-style deep strike alpha list like the on-release tzaangor alpha strike craziness that got us the current wait until turn 2 rules. Aberrants instead of tzaangors to clear chaff followed up by aberrants with tons of buffs filling the role of smashcaptain.

That's what aspect of this release is going to impact the meta. Not Keller, not the jackal alphus, not the psyker sniper guy. They're all sideshows to the deep strike leafblower BS that will make this codex cancer to play against until it gets nerfed into total uselessness again. And everyone who just wants to play dirty revolutionary hivescum will get the fun of another 6 months to a year of their army being utterly unplayable because of the competitive jackasses who ran out and ebayed 80 Deathwatch Overkill Acolytes when GSC first came out and who are probably now as we speak greenstuffing little cylinders on the bottom of all their autopistols to make them hand flamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly the only realistic scenario I can come up with here is that the guy who wrote the rules for the hand flamer and the guy that wrote the points were different guys.

Like they shipped out the master of the codex, clapped their hands together and went

"wow steve, great codex!"

"Yeah, I sure am glad we gave such good QOL buffs to those underused options - with the new rules, a hand flamer will be a legitimate good upgrade to put on a few of your acolytes!"

"Yeah, and at the new points cost, a hand flamer will be a good squad upgrade to give your acolytes a little bit more....shooting...."

"wait..."

"...Did we do both?"

Yea HQs are fairly trivial for GSC though - as well as battalion filling. I haven't read up on aberrants yet. I can't only handle so much stress in one day.

I am confident GW will fix this eventually, so people should NOT spend all their money on this army, but I'm really disappointed if this is as bad as it seems.

The only way this makes sense is if they're moving to fixed CP like AoS so pulling off 5 CP combo strats is possible without spending much until turn 3, but even then I'm not sure...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

Jeans Dealer

I think this is the winner for today folks! =)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Where are you getting hand flamer hybrids are only 8 points?
Atm I'm seeing 19 points in BS (11 points for the Hybrid & 8 points for the HF).

And yes I'm aware that BS isn't perfect; just seems like a huge difference.

Here you go. Be ready to weep. I marked it at the proper time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wConvy5p0&feature=youtu.be&t=2470

Play tested by Allan Smithee and Dr. F. I. Ctitious, PhD.

Actually, battalion filling isn't as easy for GSC as it is for most other cheap factions, since IIRC their cheapest HQ is the Primus at 73 (don't think he changed from index to codex) and with the one per detachment rule the second cheapest you have to take is the magus at 80. So their barebones HQs are more in the Marines range than the Guard range.

The abominant might be an HQ (dunno haven't used him) but I know he went up like 25pts in the codex so I think he's still more expensive than magus/primus. And the patriarch is at least over 100. All the new characters I believe are in elites, not HQ.

Well, the flamers are only 6", so actually getting all of them close enough should not be realistically possible.

Getting a single model within 12" though, is not that hard.


The keler is only held back by the fact the GSC codex seems to be just brimming with over-the-top choices so he seems tame by comparison-but in any other codex, he'd look crazy.

Abominant was an HQ in Tooth and Claw, I'd be surprised if he doesn't remain as such.

HQs are:
Jackal Alphus
Magus
Primus
Patriarch
Abominant
Iconward

At least that's the list I got filtering it in the webstore and adding the Abominant from previous knowledge.

OK, with the points increase on the abominant the cheapest 2 HQs are the iconward at 56 and the Primus at 76, have to take 1 of each for a battalion and the cheapest troop is 5x acolytes at 35pts. So the cheapest GSC battalion is 234pts. Compare to guard at 180, admech at 165 and marines at 255.

Jackal and Magus I believe are both 80, abominant went up at least 20 so he's over 100, patriarch is 150.

5-man naked acos are pretty bad, too, compared to other min size troop fillers. Even if you're going Cult of Four-armed emperor (which you are) you only get in with them 35% of the time and they're basically ork boyz with guard defense who trade mob rule/ere we go/whatever the 4 attacks at 20 rule is for Cult Ambush.

1 squad of 20 with hand flamers burning CP is probably broken, min squads without upgrades making them significantly pricy I don't know about.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, the flamers are only 6", so actually getting all of them close enough should not be realistically possible.

Getting a single model within 12" though, is not that hard.


The keler is only held back by the fact the GSC codex seems to be just brimming with over-the-top choices so he seems tame by comparison-but in any other codex, he'd look crazy.

Err - 2CP to show up within 3"?

the_scotsman wrote:
OK, with the points increase on the abominant the cheapest 2 HQs are the iconward at 56 and the Primus at 76, have to take 1 of each for a battalion and the cheapest troop is 5x acolytes at 35pts. So the cheapest GSC battalion is 234pts. Compare to guard at 180, admech at 165 and marines at 255.

Jackal and Magus I believe are both 80, abominant went up at least 20 so he's over 100, patriarch is 150.

If only there were smaller detachments that one could use as well as larger ones...

I really think that with the introduction of Specialist Detachments? We're going to start seeing some changes to make "All Battalion Spam All the Time" less interesting.

 Kanluwen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
OK, with the points increase on the abominant the cheapest 2 HQs are the iconward at 56 and the Primus at 76, have to take 1 of each for a battalion and the cheapest troop is 5x acolytes at 35pts. So the cheapest GSC battalion is 234pts. Compare to guard at 180, admech at 165 and marines at 255.

Jackal and Magus I believe are both 80, abominant went up at least 20 so he's over 100, patriarch is 150.

If only there were smaller detachments that one could use as well as larger ones...

I really think that with the introduction of Specialist Detachments? We're going to start seeing some changes to make "All Battalion Spam All the Time" less interesting.

It is what it is right now. 99% of GSC lists are going to be brigade-based though in competitive play, but they're probably going to be most of the points in the army. I don't think it makes sense to "splash in" to GSC - your list is going to be primarily GSC with souped elements.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Here you go. Be ready to weep. I marked it at the proper time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wConvy5p0&feature=youtu.be&t=2470

Wow, thanks.

So, a Hybrid with a Hand Flamer goes from range 8" to 6" & from D3 to D6 shots...for 11 points cheaper???? amazing.

And I'm not weeping, since Genestealers have been corrupting me with their xenos wiles since 2nd edition. I bought 2 of the original Space Hulk Box sets and one of the re-releases ~10 years ago; though I didn't buy the newest version with the nice sculpts; 60+ Genestealers is quite enough I think.

Personally I'm praising the four-armed emperor. =)