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I don't. It's infuriating relying on luck when you're spending real money. I don't like gambling, and I'm not an inherently lucky perosn.

 Necros wrote:
Actually I think loot boxes are fun... however, I would never pay for one. As long as they are just cosmetic things or emotes or whatever, I don't really care either way.

The problem I have with lootboxes is that they often lock content behind a pay wall, that 10 years ago would have been just a part of the game. At their core, lootboxes are predatory. They are designed to go after people who have addictions, and no self control in order to make even more money.

I don't have a problem with loot boxes in theory but rather in practice. First, that style of monetization should have some sort of a benefit for all players (like free DLC moving forward that all can enjoy without splitting the playerbase) as well as an equivalent in all cases benefit to the player purchasing it regardless of the roll. The odds of each drop should be public and there should be some sort of minimum failsafe for RNG as well as a system for giving equivalent drops instead of dupes.

My only significant experience with loot boxes was EA's first (?) take on them in Mass Effect 3 multiplayer. Everything was fine and dandy in the beginning when I had tons to earn. Everytime a new DLC worth came out, I bought a few of them ($5-15 worth) as a thank you for continued support of the game but otherwise just earned them in game instead. Once my inventory became almost full, it became apparent that your ultrarare item (when you got one) was linked to a specific weapon and, if you already had it maxed, it instead gave you a relatively worthless lvl 4 boost instead. It took me almost a year of trying to close out before I gave up on the last two weapons because the duplicates gave the relatively worthless boost instead of switching to an equally valuable rarety weapon. I simply stopped spending money and later stopped playing the game after I'd spend several nights grinding to collect 1,000,000+ credits and not get a single ultrarare on my spending sprees. (My record was spending 2 million and getting zip). It took a few years before I restarted playing again and that was only because I did a trilogy run through prior to Andromeda's release and decided to try and finish off my equipment list.

 Melissia wrote:
I have to agree with Warboss. Not having lootboxes is a positive for both Warframe and Anthem.

I think it has to be said Warframe goes about it's microtransactions intelligently. Every item is farmable, and every weapon and frame and upgrade buildable through farming. They always hide 1 component though behind a hard grind, while the rest are usually obtainable without even trying. The devs seem to have realized that if they give the player the first 2/3rds of something, a decent number will pay $4-5 to get that last third, cause pretty much everything can also be bought in the game store, and they space new stuff out enough that a lot of players feel no qualm about spending a couple bucks every two or three weeks to keep their progress steady.

It's a manipulative model to be sure, but it's also hard to really bash it when it's better than pretty much every other model on the market.

Yeah, it's an effective monetization strategy.

 warboss wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
His crusade against lootboxes is also a joke if he's someone who shills for Warframe.

Knowing what you're buying doesn't make microtransactions any better, it just makes it so that it's not a blind buy.

Knowing what you're getting instead of a random selection of possibly duplicate and/or useless items isn't "any better"? I've never played Warframe and likely never will so I don't have a dog in that fight nor am I a big fan of Jim Sterling (he's entertaining on occasion in small doses only IMO) but that is a very odd position to take. Unless that random selection is priced significantly lower than just picking and choosing an item of the same rarity/type, it is demonstrably better.

When they price the items in question fairly high and only sell currency in such a way that you either have to make multiple small transactions or a large one and when the item has 0 other way to be obtained?
Yeah. That's just as damn exploitative.

Warframe is an example of the huge issue with this since they looooove to talk about the whole "We have no lootboxes!" thing(which isn't technically wrong--but they do sell Mod Packs for Platinum, their in-game currency that is only obtained via real world currency purchases) while ignoring that most of their game is locked behind Platinum. Slots for weapons, warframes, sentinels/pets(which actually have an in-game effect) require Platinum not in-game currency. And they actually tax you via in-game currency for any trades(which are limited based upon your level each day) you make via their in-game marketplace to "regulate the marketplace". It can be offset by trading within a clan's dojo that has it set to the smallest tax amount, but that requires you to be in a clan that allows for it.

And yeah--it's a free game, but that doesn't give them any excuse to be doing that while also pushing $79.99 or $59.99 "early access" items for new Warframes.


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 LordofHats wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I have to agree with Warboss. Not having lootboxes is a positive for both Warframe and Anthem.

I think it has to be said Warframe goes about it's microtransactions intelligently. Every item is farmable, and every weapon and frame and upgrade buildable through farming. They always hide 1 component though behind a hard grind, while the rest are usually obtainable without even trying. The devs seem to have realized that if they give the player the first 2/3rds of something, a decent number will pay $4-5 to get that last third, cause pretty much everything can also be bought in the game store, and they space new stuff out enough that a lot of players feel no qualm about spending a couple bucks every two or three weeks to keep their progress steady.

It's a manipulative model to be sure, but it's also hard to really bash it when it's better than pretty much every other model on the market.

Slots aren't farmable.
Catalysts and Reactors are kinda/sorta farmable.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slots aren't farmable.

Technically they are, but only in the sense that you can sell items you farmed for for plat (some warframes are pretty easy to farm out, and people will trade for them), so even that could be obtained without spending a dime but that's also probably not something a non-whale is going to spend time doing so *shrug*

Getting back to Anthem, I'm surprised that I wasn't able to find the inevitable "Art of...." book when I went to my local bookstore. Apparently it's set to come out on March 12th. I enjoyed looking through previous books for games like Andromeda even if I didn't buy/play them. I'm still sad we didn't get to see brunette Cora from the concept art although I suppose some mods out there might replicate it somewhat.

So I got to level 30 and changed to hard level missions and I'm getting a masterwork almost every time.. but they're only guns? I thought there were other items too like grenades and stuff? I have like 8 now, and every one is a gun.. or are the other types of gear only legendary?

I think that's just bad RNG, but I might be wrong. Haven't really had enough time to farm that level of stuff, all my free time is taken up by other things lately.

 Necros wrote:
So I got to level 30 and changed to hard level missions and I'm getting a masterwork almost every time.. but they're only guns? I thought there were other items too like grenades and stuff? I have like 8 now, and every one is a gun.. or are the other types of gear only legendary?

There are other types of Masterworks, but they dont drop on anything less than Grandmaster 1. Hard is mostly meant as prelim gearing for the "endgame" of GM difficulties.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Necros wrote:
So I got to level 30 and changed to hard level missions and I'm getting a masterwork almost every time.. but they're only guns? I thought there were other items too like grenades and stuff? I have like 8 now, and every one is a gun.. or are the other types of gear only legendary?

There are other types of Masterworks, but they dont drop on anything less than Grandmaster 1. Hard is mostly meant as prelim gearing for the "endgame" of GM difficulties.

Hard has a limited pool(1 of each type or something like that).

Grandmaster unlocks all of them.

Which isnt to say there arent some really good MWs in the basic pool. The auto-pistol that boosts all damage is hellaciously fun for my Interceptor (700+ damage per bullet on a crit with that rate of fire is *chef's kiss*), while my Storm loves the combo popping rifle.

I started doing GM1 games now, sometimes the masterworks flow like rain, other times you get all purples and blues. I managed to snag my first legendary, and it was just a totally random kill on a basic bad guy that I steamrolled with my colossus. His item level is like 470 now and the damage I can do is kinda ridiculously high. On GM1, every legendary contract you do gives a masterwork at the end, in addition to any you find while playing. So even if you just stuck to those you can get 3 a day guaranteed.

I forget the names of them but I am using the MW railgun that lets you shoot twice before needing to recharge it, and also a shock thing for ordinance that's just crazy. I whip out my shield, start steamrolling things, and hit that and it zaps the crap outta everything near me. If someone does an AOE primer I get tons of combo spam. I just figured out that combos make your ultimate recharge faster. I barely even use my guns anymore, between the double railgun and the zapper I'm doing plenty of damage without them.

I heard the loot was messed up in GM2 and GM3, so I want to wait to see if they fix that before moving up but I think I'm probably high enough.

Sterling191 wrote:

Agree with all of this. Jim's industry level commentary I think is quite valuable (his crusade against loot boxes and other structural issues within the industry at large for instance) but his game level commentary is...questionable at best.

Basically this. It's certainly not just Jim, but he's kind of become the face of the argument. I think there's zero doubt that investors are treating games as the next bubble to pillage and flee before it bursts and I won't be surprised to see the biggest industry crash since ET sooner than later. That said, Anthem definitely suffers from being announced after EA made the problem extremely obvious with Star Wars and had to build hype in a year of watching everyone flail around with just how far they can exploit the playerbase while being a game pretty obviously funded with those intentions. It's quality would probably have to be on RDR2 level for reviewers to see it as more than another band wagoner.

 LunarSol wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Agree with all of this. Jim's industry level commentary I think is quite valuable (his crusade against loot boxes and other structural issues within the industry at large for instance) but his game level commentary is...questionable at best.

Basically this. It's certainly not just Jim, but he's kind of become the face of the argument. I think there's zero doubt that investors are treating games as the next bubble to pillage and flee before it bursts and I won't be surprised to see the biggest industry crash since ET sooner than later. That said, Anthem definitely suffers from being announced after EA made the problem extremely obvious with Star Wars and had to build hype in a year of watching everyone flail around with just how far they can exploit the playerbase while being a game pretty obviously funded with those intentions. It's quality would probably have to be on RDR2 level for reviewers to see it as more than another band wagoner.

The irony with regards to Star Wars is that, as I've said numerous times on the subject, they flatout disabled the ability for you to engage in pay to win behaviors past the first month or so because of player complaints. Now all lootboxes that exist? They're one time purchases of skins.

Won't stop people like Jim from continually whining about EA though.

If I catch someone crawling through my window, it doesn't make me feel particularly comfortable when they knock on my front door.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Won't stop people like Jim from continually whining about EA though.

Do you think that maybe because they're integrated heavily into pretty much every sports title that EA produces and that he mentions pretty much every time I've bothered to listen to him has anything to do with it? You know... those sports titles that both numerically and especially financially (in FIFA's case) constitute a large portion of their yearly portfolio profit which is exacerbated by recent relative failures of nonsports AAA (since we're talking about Jim Sterling it is mandatory that you read those letters in a nasally voice) titles like Battlefront, Andromeda, and Battlefield (and possibly Anthem)?

So I see EA hasn't learned a damn thing about managing a community in a positive way since the flamefest that BFV became. I remember when a similar thing happened in Destiny 2 and Bungie got so lit that they reversed it within 24 hours, not 2 weeks. I'm not sure I've ever seen a company punish players for mundane exploits innate to the game itself and not get flamed for it.

What is the exploit that he is referring to? Is it minor or something major? If he was anything but a popular (apparently? I don't follow him personally) streamer then it wouldn't be reversed.

 warboss wrote:
What is the exploit that he is referring to? Is it minor or something major? If he was anything but a popular (apparently? I don't follow him personally) streamer then it wouldn't be reversed.

Apparently there's a glitch in game that allows infinite use of an ultimate if you press a certain series of buttons which probably speeds up clear times to crazy levels.

I'd call that minor, but only in the sense that that's one of the most common kinds of bugs I encounter in these kinds of games (a similar glitch was in Grim Dawn for awhile, and FGO still has Musashi's double hit skill working 200% more effective than intended), so mileage may vary.

To be fair, if he wasn't a streamer EA probably would have never known he did it in the first place and he (I haven't checked) claims to have only done it once to see if it actually worked and that his video of the glitch included something like "putting this up so the devs can see it and get it fixed." And permabans frankly are a rather severe punishment for that kind of exploit, one that can be permanently solved by the devs fixing the glitch, especially since a game like Anthem doesn't really have an in game economy. It made sense when Arena.net banned a bunch of people for exploiting a gold farming glitch in the Catacombs dungeon since that actually caused significant weeks long damage to the player auction house, but this is more like when Bungie accidentally released a 1 hit kill weapon that murdered players in competitive PVP and no one got banned for using it since Bungie's the one who fethed it up to begin with.

If it allows an infinite use of the ultimate ability then I can understand the banning but it should have been temporary for a first infraction and not insta-permanent before they backtracked due to the publicity (how many folks who aren't streamers with a big following were treated the same and won't get reversed?).

From your description, it reminds me (at least superficially) of the infinite rockets glitch in ME3 which was also PvE multiplayer farming based and Bioware would ban folks for using it back then as well.

 warboss wrote:
(how many folks who aren't streamers with a big following were treated the same and won't get reversed?).

No idea. A quick peruse through the Anthem reddit shows a few threads with people complaining they got banned for the glitch, and I saw another video somewhere that mentioned it.

I don't think anyone should be banned because the devs released a glitch though (especially in a cooperative game with no competitive game modes), so I have a hard time holding it against anyone who got unbanned regardless of why.

Just to be clear, I'm not holding anything against anyone who got unbanned. I don't think a permanent ban was appropriate for a first time infraction for anyone. I do think its reasonable to temporarily suspend folks for a week or two for doing that glitch repeatedly (even in a PvE game) while the company fixes the glitch. That second part is key though.

To be sure it was really stupid of them to abuse an exploit in an online multiplayer game, but permaban on first offense is a massive overreaction, and it's really disappointing that this is what's happening.

 warboss wrote:
Just to be clear, I'm not holding anything against anyone who got unbanned.

That's okay. I wouldn't think less of you if you did. Streamers have basically ruined Destiny 2 (and that's a rant for another thread), so I don't really have sympathy for them XD

But glitches are just part of games (some of the most beloved aspects of gaming have even been born from glitches), and I think it's shaky ground to go around punishing players for something that only exists because the developer made a mistake somewhere.

I'm always a little weary of people complaining about bans. They're probably in the right and its probably a massive overreaction.... but.... well, I've seen the things people don't fess up to when they get banned and it's often a lot more than they're saying.

 Melissia wrote:
To be sure it was really stupid of them to abuse an exploit in an online multiplayer game, but permaban on first offense is a massive overreaction, and it's really disappointing that this is what's happening.

And this is the reason I much prefer single player games. Games are games, their for time wasting. They're not "serious business" as some try and treat them. It's the companies own darn fault that this exploit exists, and it should fall on a player for using it. As far as I'm concerned, these kinds of exploits are fair game.

I think, overall this is my issue with the "live services" game model. We don't really own our games anymore, we're playing these online games at the mercy of the company, and they can change or edit these services at any time. It is entirely possible that a game can change so much, that it is no longer the game it once was, I mean, just look at how much Space Engineers has changed since 2012, it's practically unrecognizable. All of the power is in the hands of the companies, not the consumer and that isn't a good thing.

I keep hoping that the culture will shift, but so far it doesn't seem to have changed much. And, just to add, I agree. The ban is idiotic, no matter what the game is or how it is meant to play.

I used to years ago occasionally read the xbox live official support forums for lulz where people would post threads to get unbanned. The factual responses from the xbox live enforcement team were quite entertaining.

Parent: Little Jimmy got banned for no reason! I know my son and he said he did nothing wrong. If you don't unban him then we're switching to playstation.

XBL Team: usually one of the following:

1) Jimmy was advertising/hosting/sellling/spamming modded boosting lobby messages in CODMW 1/2 to every player in his matches.

2) Glitched Avatar options not possible without glitching

3) "I'm a bad ass m***f***ker who will kick your b***ch f***t ass back into yer momma's c**t" bios or messages to other players.

 warboss wrote:
I used to years ago occasionally read the xbox live official support forums for lulz where people would post threads to get unbanned. The factual responses from the xbox live enforcement team were quite entertaining.

Parent: Little Jimmy got banned for no reason! I know my son and he said he did nothing wrong. If you don't unban him then we're switching to playstation.

XBL Team: usually one of the following:

1) Jimmy was advertising/hosting/sellling/spamming modded boosting lobby messages in CODMW 1/2 to every player in his matches.

2) Glitched Avatar options not possible without glitching

3) "I'm a bad ass m***f***ker who will kick your b***ch f***t ass back into yer momma's c**t" bios or messages to other players.

I wish it was still on Youtube but as far as I can tell it's not anymore.

My favorite was the kid who got caught streaming over his mic to the entire Battlefront II game (the original) that he wanted "some fething chocolate milk" to his mother who was a "lazy bitch" and that video is like, ten minutes long of this ten-twelve year old sounding kid just screaming profanities at his mother in the background of the game. He got banned for it, and then screamed profanities in a follow up video. Cue generic "kids those days" responses from the older people