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Thats really nice! Time to preorder 3 boxes of bikes in that case. Playing them with a ridgerunner sounds amazing. Really nice insight!

Kgn01 wrote:
Thats really nice! Time to preorder 3 boxes of bikes in that case. Playing them with a ridgerunner sounds amazing. Really nice insight!

I just pre-ordered 2 boxes of the bikes (along with the rest of the characters and the codex) and will likely get a 3rd once I manage to regrow another kidney to sell......

Bikes look superior to Sentinels if you want a Brigade, which you will if you’re running the drill and have to burn a detachment for fortifications. Speaking of which, I feel like if you’re already using the fortification slot you might as well put another building in it. Stick a heavy weapons team in a Bastion or Plasma Obliterator.

The Atalan Jackals seem like the unit I would want to take on a flanking OBJ the enemy has neglected, or bounce around in my backfield. The -1 to hit and their movement speed is what is interesting to me. I don't really expect them to kill anything, I just need them to survive.

Think about it, it doesn't seem like the army usually presents too many vehicles for the enemy AT units to aim at. If you put a vehicle on a backfield OBJ, it is going to be a prime target. However, we will saturate the enemy with bodies, so their anti infantry weapons will be overloaded. How are they going to be able to dump many anti infantry shots into a unit that A, is going to be far away, B not a threat, and C is -1 to hit with 2 wounds each?

For 10pts a model, I would be interested in a unit of them to camp my backfield and be able to react later in the game, which is extra enticing considering they can be returned to the shadows and our army has a distinct lack of staying power. Look at the few battle reports up, they ran out of steam in every one, granted I think the players fell into the trap n00bs with this army fall into, which is dropping everything in all at once, thinking saturation is key. Our units aren't durable enough, we need to play the long game, OBJs, and be smart with what threats when drop in and when. It is like a chess match, when we consider bringing in a unit, we need to ensure it performs above it's point cost and achieves something lasting.

The Abominant went up quite a bit in points, what does everyone think about that? Did I miss any other large changes from the index/Tooth & Claw?

I do think the vehicles are a bit of a trap unless you run a lot of them. Unfortunately, this edition really *really* rewards keeping your profiles as consistent as possible. You either want all mechanized or no mechanized, since your tanks will evaporate if you don't have many of them.

I want to see what the fully skinny on rock grinders is. If they're decent, running mechanized forward rush LRs behind to support and then the rest of the army in ambush so they can't be shot at would present the sort of mono-profile you would want.

I completely agree. Which is why I am very saddened by the fact we can no longer put Aberrants or Acolytes inside Chimeras. I found the durability of Chimeras (especially if they maintain the reduced price point) to be very effective.

I only own 2 rock grinders so even if they are points efficient, I don't know if I can bring myself to buy and build more of those darn things.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
The Atalan Jackals seem like the unit I would want to take on a flanking OBJ the enemy has neglected, or bounce around in my backfield. The -1 to hit and their movement speed is what is interesting to me. I don't really expect them to kill anything, I just need them to survive.

Think about it, it doesn't seem like the army usually presents too many vehicles for the enemy AT units to aim at. If you put a vehicle on a backfield OBJ, it is going to be a prime target. However, we will saturate the enemy with bodies, so their anti infantry weapons will be overloaded. How are they going to be able to dump many anti infantry shots into a unit that A, is going to be far away, B not a threat, and C is -1 to hit with 2 wounds each?

For 10pts a model, I would be interested in a unit of them to camp my backfield and be able to react later in the game, which is extra enticing considering they can be returned to the shadows and our army has a distinct lack of staying power. Look at the few battle reports up, they ran out of steam in every one, granted I think the players fell into the trap n00bs with this army fall into, which is dropping everything in all at once, thinking saturation is key. Our units aren't durable enough, we need to play the long game, OBJs, and be smart with what threats when drop in and when. It is like a chess match, when we consider bringing in a unit, we need to ensure it performs above it's point cost and achieves something lasting.

The Abominant went up quite a bit in points, what does everyone think about that? Did I miss any other large changes from the index/Tooth & Claw?

If it were only the points cost I would have understood but they decided to kill him with a -1 to Hit on his hammer as well...3 attacks at WS 4+ are NOT GOOD period

CP heavy, but the 20 Acolytes with hand flamers are there to let you get the rest of your ambush charges off.

1.Deploy Acolyte pyros
2.Trigger Lying in Wait (2CP) - deploy Pyros in hand flamer range
3.Trigger Perfect Ambush (3CP) - shoot hand flamers at everything nearby
4. Continue deploying deepstrikers now screen has gone.

It's not at the end of movement phases, start of the shooting phase or anything like that - you're shooting mid deepstrike deployment, so if you can clear a screen you can get the other units in a lot closer that same turn.
20 Acolyte pyros would expect to remove 23 Guardsmen a turn - so that could be quite a big hole for Aberrants to deploy into.

And whilst they can't charge due to the Lying in wait - add a character with the warlord trait that lets units within 6" to heroically intervene, and they can finish off whatever is left in the fight phase too.

Tastyfish wrote:


And whilst they can't charge due to the Lying in wait - add a character with the warlord trait that lets units within 6" to heroically intervene, and they can finish off whatever is left in the fight phase too.

Only in the turn charge of the enemy..

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
The Atalan Jackals seem like the unit I would want to take on a flanking OBJ the enemy has neglected, or bounce around in my backfield. The -1 to hit and their movement speed is what is interesting to me. I don't really expect them to kill anything, I just need them to survive.

Think about it, it doesn't seem like the army usually presents too many vehicles for the enemy AT units to aim at. If you put a vehicle on a backfield OBJ, it is going to be a prime target. However, we will saturate the enemy with bodies, so their anti infantry weapons will be overloaded. How are they going to be able to dump many anti infantry shots into a unit that A, is going to be far away, B not a threat, and C is -1 to hit with 2 wounds each?

For 10pts a model, I would be interested in a unit of them to camp my backfield and be able to react later in the game, which is extra enticing considering they can be returned to the shadows and our army has a distinct lack of staying power. Look at the few battle reports up, they ran out of steam in every one, granted I think the players fell into the trap n00bs with this army fall into, which is dropping everything in all at once, thinking saturation is key. Our units aren't durable enough, we need to play the long game, OBJs, and be smart with what threats when drop in and when. It is like a chess match, when we consider bringing in a unit, we need to ensure it performs above it's point cost and achieves something lasting.

The Abominant went up quite a bit in points, what does everyone think about that? Did I miss any other large changes from the index/Tooth & Claw?

If it were only the points cost I would have understood but they decided to kill him with a -1 to Hit on his hammer as well...3 attacks at WS 4+ are NOT GOOD period

They changed his hammer?? I did not see that. Weaksauce. I have 2 of those cool dudes :/

tip: the relic Blessed Sledgehammer from Anointed Throng specialist detachment does _not_ have a negative modifier to hit.

Except for the rule that says "Only the Leader", yeah, not that outlandish.

Like I said before : if you want the atalan bikes to be anything else than obj grabbers, you have to take rusted claw and demo charges for 5d6 S8 - 2ap d3 damage.

 Astmeister wrote:
Like I said before : if you want the atalan bikes to be anything else than obj grabbers, you have to take rusted claw and demo charges for 5d6 S8 - 2ap d3 damage.

You don't need to take rusted claw. The grenade strat is generic. Your right that rusted claw definitely has some awesome perks though. Then again twisted helix is decent on them as well.

It's also a bit to early to make claims about their usefulness. As I previously posted, the unit is fast enough to pull a first turn charge which is valuable on it's own. I don't think they will put out tons of damage, but we are talking about 10ppm lol. The penalty to hit them makes them more durable then you might think too. They should easily deal with screens and capture early board control, there assault will also tie things down a turn.

Has anyone caught what their hammers do?

Did I hear correctly that the rock grinder is 4+ to hit in melee now ....fun. Now I just need to know. With the way Brood brothers has been redone can we use tyranids with the AM detachment or has that been squatted.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
Like I said before : if you want the atalan bikes to be anything else than obj grabbers, you have to take rusted claw and demo charges for 5d6 S8 - 2ap d3 damage.

You don't need to take rusted claw. The grenade strat is generic. Your right that rusted claw definitely has some awesome perks though. Then again twisted helix is decent on them as well.

It's also a bit to early to make claims about their usefulness. As I previously posted, the unit is fast enough to pull a first turn charge which is valuable on it's own. I don't think they will put out tons of damage, but we are talking about 10ppm lol. The penalty to hit them makes them more durable then you might think too. They should easily deal with screens and capture early board control, there assault will also tie things down a turn.

Has anyone caught what their hammers do?

Their close combat stats are not much better than tyranid gargoyles and how often do you use them for turn 1 charges? They might be okay with twisted helix and cultist knives but throwing 10 grenades will always be better.

Danny slag wrote:Where's everyone who was losing their mind and getting pissy over me pointing out how a light vehicle with a low number of shots weapon and 5+ to hit isn't good?
How many ridgerunners are your getting? Your foot taste good?

It only hits on a 5+ if it moves, which realistically it shouldn't have to do often since all of its weapon systems have a 36+'' reach and it has no incentive or reason to move towards the foe outside of last-minute objective grabs.

I'm probably going to get 3-6 of the things personally. I was running lists with 8-9 Goliath hulls out of the index and I figure I should be able to get that hull count up to 12 or maybe even 15 between the price drops and the Achilles. Defensively it is another Goliath hull (with its flare launcher) that wants to sit back in midfield and shoot. No other vehicle available has that combination, plus as a <cult> unit it benefits from a Jackal Alphus.

Red Corsair wrote:Eldar cannot do the same, they can get a nasty mind war off, but nothing close to this deadly, and not nearly as easily or in a TAC list.

The Harlequins have a clone of the power in their psychic discipline, with the same Ld. dice off -> mortal wound effect. The Eldar as a whole have a lot of ways to manipulate leadership, so the power not seeing heavy use amongst them implies in concept it isn't too strong on its own.

 Astmeister wrote:

Their close combat stats are not much better than tyranid gargoyles and how often do you use them for turn 1 charges? They might be okay with twisted helix and cultist knives but throwing 10 grenades will always be better.

To be fair, Gargoyles have the practical issue of their physical models hindering their table-top performance. Cramming them into melee almost always results in them getting tangled up on each other due to their flying baes and they have a horrible habit of having pointy bits snap during transport. (I own 90 of the things - product of the 7th edition skyswarm formation that made them troops-in-all-but-name and respawned them for free).

Dumb question probably. Can you include ogryns, crusaders, Priest etc in am detachment with gsc? Curious to Know if I can turn my Savlar chem dogs into Savlar Scum Dogs now. (Trademark registered now for Savlar Scum Dogs)

Actually the Harlequins Mirror of Minds isn't Leadership based if I recall. It's only a straight roll off and they do a mortal wound on ties and wins. The cult one fails on a tie.

Do we know what the ridge runner heavy mortar does? I know the missile launcher is terrible but didn't think we knew about the mortar.

I heard it is D6 shots, S5, AP1, D1. So pretty unusable lol

(fixed weapon profile)

Something that was pointed out to me, the Bladed Cog might have some amusing interactions with a Void Shield Generator. Ordinarily the VSG projects a 5+ invul bubble, but the Bladed Cog in theory should bump it to a 4+ on affected models.

Karang029 wrote:
Actually the Harlequins Mirror of Minds isn't Leadership based if I recall. It's only a straight roll off and they do a mortal wound on ties and wins. The cult one fails on a tie.

Checked it and you are correct. I feel silly...

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I heard it is D6 shots, S5, AP1, D3dmg (I could be a little off). So pretty unusable lol

It was only 8 points. If it has the indirect fire and range of the standard mortar that could still be useful.

But how is that useful on a 50pt body? I own the heavy mortars for my guard army, and they were barely usable BEFORE the hefty point bump from the earlier CA. I don't see how these would be any different for 58pts, 1 lower strength, and only 1dmg on the weapon ...

Ferryman wrote:
Dumb question probably. Can you include ogryns, crusaders, Priest etc in am detachment with gsc? Curious to Know if I can turn my Savlar chem dogs into Savlar Scum Dogs now. (Trademark registered now for Savlar Scum Dogs)

Kind of no, but also very much yes. No option to share a detachment and to get detachment linked strats from them (though if you already have a AM and GC detachment - go wild). But you can add a second detachment of AM for every GC one you have replacing all regiment or scion keywords as "Brood Brother", and essentially getting the regimental trait of +1 Ld. If a unit (like Ogryns/Priests) doesn't have a regimental trait - it gets Brood Brothers, which currently has the mad consequence of now letting your order them about with officers. But don't expect that to survive the first FAQ - regiment becomes Brood Brothers and guys without a regiment get Faction Keyword Brood Brothers. So officers taken in a AM detachment could order Brood brothers in a GC detachment, but strats that effect infantry squads wouldn't work.

But for you, important thing is that there is room specifically carved out for non-regiment units to be taken in a Genestealer cult army. No AM or GC buffs though.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:Eldar cannot do the same, they can get a nasty mind war off, but nothing close to this deadly, and not nearly as easily or in a TAC list.

The Harlequins have a clone of the power in their psychic discipline, with the same Ld. dice off -> mortal wound effect. The Eldar as a whole have a lot of ways to manipulate leadership, so the power not seeing heavy use amongst them implies in concept it isn't too strong on its own.

Mirror of mind is a straight roll off that does not add leadership into the mix. I know, I play eldar including harlequins, they absolutely cannot do anything close to what this combo achieves.

Edit: Sorry I hadn't refreshed the page in a bit and didn't see it was addressed. Nothing to feel silly over, we all make errors, theres a lot of rules interactions to juggle.

I really want the bikers to have demolition charges and people keep talking about it but I'm looking at a blurry version of the datasheet and I'm not seeing it......Can anyone confirm?

Caspian89 wrote:
I really want the bikers to have demolition charges and people keep talking about it but I'm looking at a blurry version of the datasheet and I'm not seeing it......Can anyone confirm?

The datasheet for Atalan Jackals says that each biker must take two weapons from the atalan jackals weapons list. On that list are demolition charges among other things.

Just a small note, the Heavy Mining Laser is now D3 shots instead of just 1. Not sure if that makes it worth taking on a rockgrinder/ridgerunner though.

So I have spent some time of the last few days digesting the information we now have and I have had a few revelations about how our army is going to work once the codex drops.

First off, the army as we know it is now dead. That doesn't mean it is bad, but the play style is dead. We used to want to use cult ambush to get our melee units into guarantee charge range, but this is no longer the case. The best we can do is move D6 after we come from underground (which was the same as a 5 on the old ambush table). Looking through the codex leaks, we can see that now at most we can get 1 semi reliable underground charge T2 and another T3. You can set these up with A perfect Ambush and a couple of other buffs to reduce the charge range by D6+2 (D6 strat, +1 gene trait, +1 character?).

So if our cult ambush is now longer for mass melee charges then what does it do?

Well first off it is a lot more reliable. No longer can games be lost T2 because of some whacky bad luck on the cult ambush table. And on the flip side our opponents no longer feel like they cant do anything if we get insane luck on the ambush table. This removes a lot of the stress of the army and actually allows for some really good planning, which is what the cult is all about.

Because it is more reliable, but further away it naturally lends itself to shooting units. Neophytes can now ambush in mass within rapid fire range. which gives excellent screen removal We can now arrive from underground with 100 neos for just 500points and unleash 200 shots. This is incredibly powerful. Combine this with the new Biker character which gives us +1 to hit on an enemy unit (take 3 to mark up 3 enemy units) and I believe the Kelemorph gives the ability to reroll 1s in the shooting phase if he damages something gives 200 shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s. Dont forget that against 1 enemy unit you can go up to a 2+ to if you use the new Hivecult specific stratagem. Lastly, big blobs of cheap neos can screen our other ambusing characters really well. The enemy is going to have to chew through a fair number of cultists before getting to the Patriarch behind, which means he can get a T3 charge off.

On top of this, people have already clocked onto the Acolyte fireball. using the Lying In Wait Stratagem we can Underground 1 unit within 3 inches of the enemy but not charge after. Combine this with 1pt hand flamers and the new cheaper 7pt Acolytes and for just 160 pts you can get 20d6 strength 3 autohits T2.

Also, trucks/rockgrinders have got improved now that the weapons nearly all got cheaper or better. This is a good way for us to deliver our close combat units into the fray, Now again thanks to the new cult ambush blip mechanic we can protect these assets much easier. With the ability to put down 3 false blips and the ability to move 3 just before they are revealed we can screen super effectively. Put these 6 blips on the edge of your deployment zone and you can deny the enemy a turn 1 charge with ease as they have to stay 9 inches away. Have your truck blips be 3.1 inches behind the screening blips and the enemy cannot get a turn 1 charge. Then in your turn, your units can jump out and move 9 inches towards the enemy for a sweet 3.1 inch charge Or if your enemy wants to sit back and shoot, just make sure you have some blips behind LOS blocking terrain or in terrain to reduce the effectiveness of their shooting against our delivery trucks.

Finally, we have the new bikers, these guys are super flexible and can do multiple roles. 1 way is a drive by demo unit. Being able to move 20 inches (with the new ridgerunner buggy) and throw 5 democharge is again a powerful shooting ability. Again combine this with the biker character (who has a 12" buff for them) and these guys will be hitting on 3s with d6s Str8 AP-2 shots. With these costing only 75 pts you can afford to do this 2-3 turns in a row and just throw waves of suicide bikers at high value enemy targets. Or these guys can appear underground and within rapid fire range, and dont forget their quadbike flamer has a 12" range so wont be waste from deep striking.

So putting all this together what does it mean? Essentially we have to use wave attacks. We survive T1, Either denying enemy shooting /charging as best we can and getting into position for T2, Or zoom a unit of bikers up to try and demo blast a unit to get first blood/strike. When Turn 2 drops, its game time. Masses of cultists blasting apart enemy screens and presenting a threat overload. We also have 1 of our combat blobs Perfect Ambush and charge in. Our trucks deliver their combat units and the enemy is forced into a rock and a hard place. do they shoot the cultists shooting them and who will tie them up next urn, or try and stop the combat units from making it in. Turn 3 is the Killing Blow. Another big combat squad can perfect ambush in and our truck combat units can engage the enemy. If all goes well the enemy will either be overwhelmed, or will emerge T5 battered and bruised to see small biker units, ridge runners, tucks and neos sitting on objectives.

Last comment. Our purestrains are now pointless and if you want to take genestealers then look at taking a kraken bomb. Metamorphes are now where it is at. Being able to take 5 attacks hitting on 2s rerolling 1s at strength 5-6 is incredible and I plan on picking up 2 10 man squads of these guys for only 180pts.

A rough outline of a list I have is (split into 3 battalions):
Patriarch
Magus
Magus
Primus
Iconward
Jackel Alphus
Jackel Alphus

15x Neos
15x Neos
15x Neos
15x Neos
15x Neos
15x Neos
20x Flamer Acolytes
10x Acolytes with 4x Rock Saws
10x Acolytes with 4x Rock Saws

10x Aberrant
10x Metamorphes
10x Metamorphes

5x Demo Bikers
5x Demo Bikers

Truck
Truck
Truck
Ridgerunner

Am I assuming correctly that Neophytes with lasgun are now Brood Brothers and don't get no creed bonuses?
I was planning to build few squads with lasguns to make them cheap units but without creed bonuses it feels pointless.
Also I don't like painting regular Neophytes so much, too much details for random guys.