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1.) No idea. Our vehicles still aren't great, even post-codex.

2.) Yeah, that's kind of the armies shtick.

3.) Between all of the bonuses to charges, rerolls and stratagems, psychic powers, etc.

4.) Playing smart. This army has some nuance, and proper target priority is a must. Accepting you send some of your units to die, so that others can kill things, or hold points, is part of that.

5.) Depends. I wouldn't, personally, ever invest heavily in Guardsmen models. I give him webbers because they're super cheap.

6.) Rusted Claw survives. Helix and Four Armed kill things. The rest are memes.

Which Goliath? Standard one is handy for drivebys, seeing as it’s open topped. I’d fill it with with either handflamer Acolytes, or Shotgun Neophytes. Both can kick out impressive levels of firepower.

Alpha Strikes? They’re useful, but we can also hug cover to boost those saves a bit.

Charging? Same as everyone else really. Cunning movement prior to the charge.

Perfect Ambush? Bit of a Red Herring. It’s useful, but far from essential. What you end up using it on is incredibly situational, and for me largely depends upon if and indeed where my opponent has been caught with his trousers down. If a big heavy/nasty thing is expose, likely my Aberrants. If it’s infantry or (luck of luck) a character, it’ll be the Acolytes benefitting.

Neophytes? Mine will be around 15 strong, and relatively bare bones at the moment. They’re there to control objectives in my table half. Sitting in cover, and ideally with some LoS blocking, they can prove tricky to shift. Shotguns and Autoguns both have their perks, and I’m not sure there’s really anything between them.

Creeds? Again depends on your overall strategy and army selection. Despite not taking Jackals at the moment, I’m going with Rusted Claw. As my master plan is swampimg Objectives, their armour boost rule can pay dividends. Hybrids wind up with a 3+ armour in cover. My Sanctus, potentially a 2+ save (normal, +2 for cloak, +1 for Rusted Claw)

I’d suggest just doodling a list of stuff wot you like units wise, then worry about what Creed you want to plump for.

 Niiai wrote:
I have some questions:

1: What is the goliath for? I can not deside it's intended purpose, nor what gun to put on it.

2: So much of our army crumbles to the slightest breese. Is it alpha strikes all the way?

3: Charging. How do you pull it off? We can do a perfect ambush turn 2 and 3. But what else outside of that`?

4: How do you deside of what to perfect ambush?

Acolyte hybrids with weapons and genstealers seems like the best all rounders. Hybrid Metamrophs and Abberants seems specialised vs no armour saves and vs heavy tragets respectivly.

5: What are good set ups for neophyte hybrids? What roles can they do?

6: What do the different cult creeds do well?

1. It's sadly for sitting on a shelf. If the Castellan gets hit with a nerf bat they are cheap enough as transports to put troops in them and shoot bs 3+ autocannons at certain targets with the help of a Jackal.
2. I wouldn't say all but you do need to inflict maximum damage turns 2 & 3 with your incoming units because if to much of the enemy is left you'll fold in the last 3 turns or be playing cat and mouse pretty hard for points.
3. You have perfect ambush, you have 8" rerollable charges if you take the specialist detachment for Acolytes & Neophytes (7" if you run 4-armed emperor creed but I'm not a fan)
4. Generally have 3-4 units you'd like to based on type of enemy units and then pick and play. Generally though I'm personally looking at Metamorphs and Acolytes as I think 3 acolytes crushes 1 abberant in damage output.
5. My neophytes are a highly like to be groups of 10 with 2 Heavy Stubbers and 2 Webbers with the +1 Save if the attack is 0/-1 AP. That allows me to have 3+ save neophytes in cover that with jackal support can help shred lighter screens. Though I might switch to grenade launchers for the same range.
6. Twisted Helix gives you amazing Characters and can make your bikes and infantry hit harder. Rusted Claw (the save one) is good for horde and biker armies with all the bonus saves and their grenade strat. 4-Armed emp is for people who really wanna vect and feel the +1" to their arriving turn charge is worth it. The others didn't really register with me honestly so I can't tell you.

 Cephalobeard wrote:


5.) Depends. I wouldn't, personally, ever invest heavily in Guardsmen models. I give him webbers because they're super cheap.

Why's that, aside from painting and assembly and $ cost (unless that's what you mean)? Guardsmen seem really nice for filling out battalions versus neophytes, to me.

Gordoape wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:


5.) Depends. I wouldn't, personally, ever invest heavily in Guardsmen models. I give him webbers because they're super cheap.

Why's that, aside from painting and assembly and $ cost (unless that's what you mean)? Guardsmen seem really nice for filling out battalions versus neophytes, to me.

No, you misunderstood me.

I'm calling Neophytes Guardsmen because that's their statline, and saying it's pointless to invest POINTS in them, beyond basics.

As far as making a fast horde army that starts on the board, Twisted Helix with Deliverance Broodsurge, an Iconward with the Broodsurge warlord trait and a Clamavus means a bunch of acolytes going 6 + rerollable D6 + 3 which is faster and cheaper than genestealers. Every character you throw in just increases their power exponentially.

I wouldn’t even bother with anything other than maybe hand flamers on them. Mass strength 5 rending claws will absolutely shred anything and everything. For fast attack and heavy choices keep it to bikes and heavy weapon teams so there’s nothing to shoot any big guns at.

Guardsmen that can deepstrike and charge with like a 70% rate of success, are not bad as far as tarpits go. Especially when you factor in some of the buffs they may receive by virtue of deploying near your other characters who you are taking anyway.

A 20-man blob of shotgun neophytes makes a great tarpit and source of protection and Unquestioning Loyalty saves for nearby characters.

 Niiai wrote:

1: What is the goliath for? I can not deside it's intended purpose, nor what gun to put on it.

The Rockgrinder is basically Tyranid Carnifex crossed with Dark Eldar Venom. Its job is to surge up the board and ram into units you don't want your ambushers to take overwatch from, possibly dropping off a squad + character on the way in (it really likes a Primus around). Ideal targets are multi-wound infantry, light vehicles, and structures if you ever chance encounter one.

I'd personally suggest equipping it with either the Clearance Incinerator or Heavy Seismic Cannon. Both guns mesh with the aggressive nature of the unit, with the first being the best gun in terms of quality and the second being the cheapest and most flexible. You could take the Heavy Mining Laser if you really were desperate for ranged anti-tank shots, but the Achillies is a more optimal chassis for the weapon.

I should also add that to get the most out of a Rockgrinder you really want to take the max allotment of 3 and an additional compliment of vehicles for threat saturation. Most of my index lists had 9 odd vehicles and some of the lists I'm working on now have upwards of 15. You have to expect some are going to die each turn, it is just a matter of overloading the amount of targets the foe "needs" to deal with and reacting accordingly to punish them for their target selection.

 Niiai wrote:

2: So much of our army crumbles to the slightest breese. Is it alpha strikes all the way?

Yes and no. You basically want to keep your important stuff off table in some way (mounted up or in the tunnels) and insure that they get to hit their targets first, but not necessarily by blowing everything off the table in the first round of the game.

 Niiai wrote:

Acolyte hybrids with weapons and genstealers seems like the best all rounders. Hybrid Metamrophs and Abberants seems specialised vs no armour saves and vs heavy tragets respectivly.

I think the Metamorphs aren't so much for clearing out low save targets as much as anti-infantry in general. Claw-morphs are for "heavy" infantry (T4/5 with a 4+ to 3+ save), Duel Talons for hordes, Whips for "always swings first" infantry (Slaanash, certain Tyranids), and the Talon + Rending Claw is for general use like the stock Acolyte but with an extra rending claw attack and a 2+ to hit Knife.

I am curious to get some table time with them. They still feel a bit pricy but are infinitely better than they were in the index.

 Niiai wrote:

5: What are good set ups for neophyte hybrids? What roles can they do?

I've always liked the 2x Grenade Launcher, 2x Seismic Cannon loadout. The two guns mirror each other fairly well so you get a higher volume of each strength shot. Squads with shotguns and no other upgrades have also worked well for me as well. Jumping to S4 at 6'' is a huge improvement over S3 and the added mobility from the assault type is useful for objective grabbing and screening.

Main roles for Neophytes are screen clearing, objective grabbing, charge screening, and occasionally tarpitting (usually so a dedicated melee unit can charge without needing to face overwatch).

 Niiai wrote:

6: What do the different cult creeds do well?

Hammer Creeds:
Four Armed Emperor: Does 7th edition-style ambush centric lists well and provides extra starting command points and the ability to shut down critical stratagems. They make an ideal ally since they bring a lot of useful things and a smaller detachment allows them to maximize their creed ability.

Pauper Princes: MSU-leaning creed that maximizes the damage potential of units while simultaneously punishing the opponent for killing units (the latter through their stratagem and relic). Warlord trait is really good for a Patriarch. Of the "hammer' oriented creeds, I think they are probably the best suited to running solo since their toolbox benefits the "anvil" units as well.

Twisted Helix Basically takes whatever hybrid melee unit you like and makes them better. Nothing really subtle about the creed. It does Aberrant deathstars better than any other cult due to their stratagem and the buffs granted by their trait. Also can make a very mean Patriarch with their relic and warlord trait.

Anvil Creeds:
Hivecult: I think the stratagem and warlord trait is the most defining element of the Hivecult, since it allows mechanized lists to reach a very respectable accuracy against a key target while the creed ability allows neophytes to excel as screening units. Their relic is iffy, but realistically they are probably going to be wanting the Gift From Beyond sniper rifle more often than not to enable their stratagem. I don't think they are really suitable for use as allies, as their strategy is both very CP hungry and requires a very specific build (more like an AM list than traditional GSC).

Rusted Claw:Basically the same beta-strike playstyle of Hive Fleet Jormungandr from the Tyranids, but with bikers replacing tunnellers as the preferred mobile counter-punch unit. Jackals with the trait are more mobile (no penalty for their wolfquad heavies or sniper rifles, stratagem allows them to move->shoot-> move) and are relatively durable with their innate -1 and a 4+ save. Relic is of questionable use and the warlord trait is situational.

Bladed Cog Similar idea to Rusted Claw but with a 6+ invulnerable in place of improved armor save and neophyte heavy weapons being able to move and fire. The invulnerable makes it a better creed for melee units that otherwise have no means of improving their save and their stratagem further enhances the volume of attacks melee units are known for (extra attacks on a 6+ vs non-Imperials, 5+ vs Imperials, or a 4+ vs Admech). Relic also allows for a remarkably tough warlord with a 3+ invul (or a 4+ if Patriarch). Also probably the only subfaction in the game that can make good use of a Void Shield Generator for a 4+ invulnerable for units in range.

 Badablack wrote:
A 20-man blob of shotgun neophytes makes a great tarpit and source of protection and Unquestioning Loyalty saves for nearby characters.

And also don't cost additional points, and as such are worth being invested in. I'm talking about the heavy weapons and some of the special weapons. Don't throw 30pts worth of wargear onto Neophytes when they cost 50 for ten.

The end, folks. That's my point.

Yeah I don't think I'll be adding anything but webbers and stubbers for the Neophytes depending on what they are doing.

I would also think that Twisted Helix would be pretty good for a shotgun blob no? I mean you already want to get real close.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
A 20-man blob of shotgun neophytes makes a great tarpit and source of protection and Unquestioning Loyalty saves for nearby characters.

And also don't cost additional points, and as such are worth being invested in. I'm talking about the heavy weapons and some of the special weapons. Don't throw 30pts worth of wargear onto Neophytes when they cost 50 for ten.

The end, folks. That's my point.

I get your point, but your acting as if the upgrades are not dirt cheap. A unit with 2 webbers and 2 heavy stubbers is only 6 additional points. You would be stupid not to upgrade them unless your really pinching points, and I mean really pinching.

Jesus, guys, come on. My literal example listed Webbers.

Me say me give cheap option

Me say no use expensive option

Because you hen get more body

This good

Less body bad

More body good

All win, happy shoot

 OEMoose wrote:
Yeah I don't think I'll be adding anything but webbers and stubbers for the Neophytes depending on what they are doing.

I would also think that Twisted Helix would be pretty good for a shotgun blob no? I mean you already want to get real close.

Depends on the FAQ. There is a discrepancy in the mining lasers damage between the appendix and the Atalan Jackals data slate. If the bog standard ML is in fact damage d6 that's pretty huge. Units dropping in and potentially hitting with two las canons on a 3+ with a Jackal Alphus nearby is solid. It would be the go to AT IMO.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Jesus, guys, come on. My literal example listed Webbers.

Me say me give cheap option

Me say no use expensive option

Because you hen get more body

This good

Less body bad

More body good

All win, happy shoot

Sorry, I just figured you had a different point since what you pointed out seems glaringly obvious.

He... Asked questions... I responded to his questions...

Are you attempting to imply I cannot reply to a question when someone directly asks for them, because the answer is "Glaringly obvious"? I had to explain further because people then misunderstood the assertion, even as you did by suggesting the cheap options I laid out in my original post, absent from my subsequent replies.

You're not typically one to be so condescending, so I'm going to go ahead and assume this commentary is out of the ordinary and not intentional.

Neophytes. Mine will be largely static, and deployed on ‘home’ Objectives.

15 strong with Rusted Claw creed gives them some decent resilience. 75 points bare bones.

At that point, it is tempting to give them special and heavy weapons, but I wouldn’t say it’s essential. Me, I’m taking two such squads just with Shotguns (I just like them), and one with Autoguns, two Grenade Launchers and 2 Mining Lasers. It’s not a great deal of points, and mostly there to use up residuals, and to be more of a nuisance. I just figure it’s cheap enough to be able to tickle pretty much any unit in the game.

I disagree with the "no heavy weapons on Neophytes" thing. Will definitely try Mining lasers on them. They are the only worthwile AT shooting in the army and are not really expensive. Also you can make them hit on 3+ with the Alphus.

 Astmeister wrote:
I disagree with the "no heavy weapons on Neophytes" thing. Will definitely try Mining lasers on them. They are the only worthwile AT shooting in the army and are not really expensive. Also you can make them hit on 3+ with the Alphus.

Agree. Neophytes are already quite cheap so giving few high str weapons does not harm you but does harm enemies.

Just expands what a given squad is capable of.

It's not something for every squad of Neophytes, but one or two do same to make sense.

 Astmeister wrote:
How good is the idea of using a mass infantry army with twisted helix advancing up the field? They have +1 S and also +2 advance, which could make them pretty interesting for this.

I've been thinking about this since the codex came out. Orkish style.

The problem with ambush it's not just failing the charge. If you have a lot of units in reserves, and the opponent has mobility, can deny areas easy the first turn.

40 acolytes in reserves with heavy weapons for perfect ambush turn 2-3, and some points for summon first turn.

everything else acolytes on the table. (150+ acolytes its possible)

With clamavus, and twisted helix you have +3 to advance, so the second turn you are with everything in combat, and you can possibly charge with one unit the first turn too (psychic stimulus).

If you dont have enough acolytes, neophytes with shotguns would not be bad either

I'm planning on mass brood brother infantry squads with orders to start on the board, and go full chaff clearance turn 1. I'd worry a bit about losing 7pt models by the bucketload. In general orks aren't just doing mass 7pt Boyz these days as each loss is pretty painful...

How many models is a good number of models nowadays? IIRC I managed 130-odd in an 1850 list in 7th, is thast still the standard to aim for?

 BBAP wrote:
How many models is a good number of models nowadays? IIRC I managed 130-odd in an 1850 list in 7th, is thast still the standard to aim for?

Speaking as an Imperial Guard player turned cult, If you are going pure infantry horde then you really want to be aiming for 150 dudes minimum.

 BBAP wrote:
How many models is a good number of models nowadays? IIRC I managed 130-odd in an 1850 list in 7th, is thast still the standard to aim for?

Iirc my list is around 160~ ish models as pure GSC.

My first draft list is a little under 1,000, and formed entirely of infantry.

As it stands, that's 45 Neophytes, 30 Acolytes, 10 Aberrants, Abominant, Magus, Sanctus and Kelermorph. So 89 models in total.

Once I'm around my target 1750, I expect a heftier model count, as I'll be adding in 'redundancy' infantry units.

Thank you kind sirs, useful advices.

Next question: are Brigades worth the hassle? I've got a 1500pt Brigade list in mind that'd top out at 128 models, but I'm really not happy with the mandatory HS and FA slots because the bikers and HWTs feel like dreck. Should I just throw some Mortars and Knife/ Shotguns on the dudes to keep them cheap and have done with it, or is it worth trying to retool for a 2-3 Battalion setup?

Don't do Brigade just for the CPs. That goes for any army.

If you're taking stuff you're not keen on (or don't really have a role for in your battle plan), then you're going after the wrong thing.

Better to consider other approaches, and see if you can retool for other selections.

But once again, make sure you've got a firm idea of how you want the collective army to perform on the board. Are you into WRECKING FACE? Plan around that. If like me you're into wrecking face and some sneaky shenanigans? Plan around that instead.

Just don't rack up CPs for the sake of racking up CPs.

The difference between a brigade and a "I was taking these anyway" is often barely more than 1-200pts. I've found a brigade to be essential for all of my lists, however, I've been not adding Nids.

I expect this FAQ to be around 4 pages long. Before we really talk about a list, it needs to come out because that is going to create a bunch of forks in the road with builds.




- My first thought is the Patriarch needed in the army?
- How can Jackals be armed and bought
- Brood brothers.... 10 or 20

Patriarch is most definitely not a compulsory addition. An attractive one, sure (combines best bit of a Magus with the best bit of an Abominant), but not one I feel is an absolute must have.

Jackals? Well, as per the Codex really.

Brood Brothers? Dunno, I'm not using them, so haven't given them any thought.