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My go to for Jackals would be:

Rusted Claw

5 jackals
1 grenade launcher, 4 Shotguns, 5 demo charges

1 Wolfquad
Mining laser

Probably a Wolfquad with Heavy Stubber would be better as ablative wounds, but I feel like I want to be able to ping off the last couple of wounds from a crippled vehicle after demo charges.

Personally I'm still trying to find a reason to take Genestealers in a Genestealer Cult army.

1. 3 points More expensive than "Tyranid" Genestealers.
2. No Cult Creed/Hive Fleet "Chapter Tactics".
3. Can be transported in Goliaths/Rockgrinders.
4. Cult Ambush and/or Underground.

And what is the deal with the stats?
* Patriarch has a BS / Brood Lord does not
* Tyranid Genestealers have a BS / Purestrains does not
I'm not really upset about it and the only benefit I could see for Purestrains to have a BS is the highly unlikely occurance of when mounted on a Goliath with Blasting Charges. But still, some continuity please?

 Niiai wrote:
I have some questions:

1: What is the goliath for? I can not deside it's intended purpose, nor what gun to put on it.

2: So much of our army crumbles to the slightest breese. Is it alpha strikes all the way?

3: Charging. How do you pull it off? We can do a perfect ambush turn 2 and 3. But what else outside of that`?

4: How do you deside of what to perfect ambush?

Acolyte hybrids with weapons and genstealers seems like the best all rounders. Hybrid Metamrophs and Abberants seems specialised vs no armour saves and vs heavy tragets respectivly.

5: What are good set ups for neophyte hybrids? What roles can they do?

6: What do the different cult creeds do well?

Well, I can tell you my own answers after my test game yesterday:

I ran a basic TAC list using mostly my old existing stuff (Proxied one Clamavus and one Jackal Alphus to test them out) against a watered-down version of the current imperial soup meta. My opponent had a knight crusader with the relic gatling gun, 4++ trait, loyal 32 but with straken and a priest in a valk with one squad, and a manticore added on, and then instead of the rest being guard he had the rest as Admech, with the new Servitor maniple formation and a skitarii screen.

1: By goliath I assume you mean rockgrinder. I ran mine with the clearance incinerator, and turn 1 when I revealed the blip I used "lying in wait" stratagem to make it appear on one flank of my opponent, threatening the manticore which was screened by only one infantry squad (most of the screens were in front of the big unit of servitors). It was full of an acolyte squad with demo charges and hand flamers, and it was meant as a distraction/threat piece. Since he ignored it to try and focus on the large bunch of shooting units clumped around the jackal alphus, it was able to flame out the infantry squad and charge the manticore after 2 turns, meaning the manticore only got to fire 2 of its missiles not on overwatch. It also should have mulched the enemy warlord, but he rolled supremely well on his invuln saves.

2: I did have some trouble making the parts of my list that weren't alpha strikes work. My opponent went first and took out 1 of my leman russes turn 1, leaving the jackal buffing only 1 goliath-borne squad of neophytes and 1 leman russ, which didn't do a whole lot against the knight. By contrast my two alpha strike squads (which were 20 acolytes and 5 aberrants) absolutely rocked socks, melting the knight with basically no trouble and tying up a ton of the enemy shooting units until I could get into position on basically every objective and win the game by 11 points turn 5. The one thing that did work super duper well starting on the board was my Patriarch. I gave him +2LD from clammy and the BRB leadership trait on a Magus, and he melted something worth more than his points with Mental Onslaught every single turn. First he nuked a valkyrie because my opponent did not realize I was not exaggerating when I told him how broken this power was vs vehicles, then he ate the guys inside including straken and the priest, then he mental onslaught'd a kastelan robot and an onager dunecrawler to close out the game. MO is 100% the single most broken direct damage power in the game, maybe even the most broken power in general.

3: Clamavus, Perfect Ambush, Cult of the Four-armed emperor. I used all three on my aberrants (there was a handy box I could hide them behind with the perfect ambush move, so I avoided overwatch from the knight). They made their 5" charge, shocker. My acolytes also had no trouble with their 7" charge with the clamavus + four-armed emp trait.

4: What needs to get dead. I'd always include 1 unit meant to whack vehicles, one to clear infantry. Perfect ambush what needs to get dead in your opponent's list.

5: I tried all four of our neophyte setups in my list: 1 squad in a goliath with lascannons and GL's, 1 squad in a goliath with Seismic cannons, 1 squad of 20 with shotguns and webbers, and 1 squad of 20 brood bros with lasguns. My favorite was the lascannons and GLs, who got huge buffs from the jackal alphus and did very nice reliable damage all game. Shotguns and webbers worked pretty well as a threat piece on a flank, killing enough skitarii to get my opponent's attention and he devoted his robots to killing them. wasn't impressed by the seismics, but they popped out of their transport turn 1 to help shoot up a squad of infantry I absolutely had to clear, and so they got wiped early. I am definitely going to give them another shot.

6: I ran Rusted Claw for my on the board stuff and four armed emp for my alpha strikers. Don't think I'll change that up much. I loved the armor save from rusted claw and running both neophytes and brood bros the difference was striking in their survivability.

So if I keep a measly 60points in reserve for Psychic Summons I am guaranteed a turn 1 Sanctus (using Perfect Ambush for 0 CPs, equipped as the situation warrants) or turn 1 Kellermorph coming down and disrupting characters turn 1? If I reserve 120 points to do it again I have even more flexibility and can pop-in a 20 model unit of Neophytes on turn 1 within rapid-fire range....geez, there's your screen clearing.

Can you imagine how annoyed and tilted your opponent will be by this? It's not Genestealers turn 1....but it's something.

Seems like a very powerful trick for very few points and very few moving parts. No psychic roll required...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Patriarch is most definitely not a compulsory addition. An attractive one, sure (combines best bit of a Magus with the best bit of an Abominant), but not one I feel is an absolute must have.

Jackals? Well, as per the Codex really.

Brood Brothers? Dunno, I'm not using them, so haven't given them any thought.

I think that unless you go pauper prince which can provide you with a fearless aura, it is gonna be tough against a good opponent who will kill half your squads and leave moral kill the rest

Caspian89 wrote:
So if I keep a measly 60points in reserve for Psychic Summons I am guaranteed a turn 1 Sanctus (using Perfect Ambush for 0 CPs, equipped as the situation warrants) or turn 1 Kellermorph coming down and disrupting characters turn 1? If I reserve 120 points to do it again I have even more flexibility and can pop-in a 20 model unit of Neophytes on turn 1 within rapid-fire range....geez, there's your screen clearing.

Can you imagine how annoyed and tilted your opponent will be by this? It's not Genestealers turn 1....but it's something.

Seems like a very powerful trick for very few points and very few moving parts. No psychic roll required...

Perfect ambush is in movement phase. Summon is in psy. phase.

zamerion wrote:


Perfect ambush is in movement phase. Summon is in psy. phase.

Thank-you, missed that! Still works nicely with a cheeky Kellermorph on turn 1 or having a sniper Sanctus vs. Psycher heavy armies in your back-pocket (hopefully not literally). Getting those Neophytes into rapidfire vs. an appropriate target turn 1 also seems worth it. If I go to a tournament it's nice to have a little bit of tailoring possible to suit certain opponents. My sideboard if you will.

the_scotsman wrote:


1: By goliath I assume you mean rockgrinder. I ran mine with the clearance incinerator, and turn 1 when I revealed the blip I used "lying in wait" stratagem to make it appear on one flank of my opponent, threatening the manticore which was screened by only one infantry squad (most of the screens were in front of the big unit of servitors). It was full of an acolyte squad with demo charges and hand flamers, and it was meant as a distraction/threat piece. Since he ignored it to try and focus on the large bunch of shooting units clumped around the jackal alphus, it was able to flame out the infantry squad and charge the manticore after 2 turns, meaning the manticore only got to fire 2 of its missiles not on overwatch. It also should have mulched the enemy warlord, but he rolled supremely well on his invuln saves.

If lying in wait is really working with a rockgrinder, I assume it will get FAQed immediately.

 Astmeister wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


1: By goliath I assume you mean rockgrinder. I ran mine with the clearance incinerator, and turn 1 when I revealed the blip I used "lying in wait" stratagem to make it appear on one flank of my opponent, threatening the manticore which was screened by only one infantry squad (most of the screens were in front of the big unit of servitors). It was full of an acolyte squad with demo charges and hand flamers, and it was meant as a distraction/threat piece. Since he ignored it to try and focus on the large bunch of shooting units clumped around the jackal alphus, it was able to flame out the infantry squad and charge the manticore after 2 turns, meaning the manticore only got to fire 2 of its missiles not on overwatch. It also should have mulched the enemy warlord, but he rolled supremely well on his invuln saves.

If lying in wait is really working with a rockgrinder, I assume it will get FAQed immediately.

It doesn’t. You can only use “Lying in Wait” with units that are coming in as reinforcements. Vehicles have to come on as blips.

 Astmeister wrote:
My go to for Jackals would be:

Rusted Claw

5 jackals
1 grenade launcher, 4 Shotguns, 5 demo charges

1 Wolfquad
Mining laser

Probably a Wolfquad with Heavy Stubber would be better as ablative wounds, but I feel like I want to be able to ping off the last couple of wounds from a crippled vehicle after demo charges.

I recently discovered that you can only purchase Atalan Jackals in units of 4, 8, or 12 bikes (with 1, 2, or 3 Wolfquads added). Check out the language used on the data sheet.

Yep. It's very specific, no "up to" in the wording.

I'm pretty sure that's using Power Rating. If you're using points, you should be able to take any number from 4-12, plus a quad for every four.

As far as the brigade discussion, I'm looking at maybe taking a brigade myself. Used HWT w/ mortars for the HS and Atalans (and maybe a Ridgerunner) for the FA. Haven't really pointed it out fully. I'm also trying to figure out if the Unquestioningly Loyal 32 is a viable CP farm. Three codex BB squads with probably two Iconwards would be the cheapest option, and since it's still a GSC detachement, you'd get the full CP. Seems fluffy for a Hive Cult army, too.

I've ended up nixing the Brigade. Having HWTs taking up points in a Twisted Helix detachment seems inefficient, and I'm not really convinced GSC would benefit from any kind of firebase let alone a crap one. You get more CP and more Cult Traits using multi-Battalions, so to me that seems like the best idea.

 EnTyme wrote:
I'm pretty sure that's using Power Rating. If you're using points, you should be able to take any number from 4-12, plus a quad for every four.

I would have to politely disagree, compare it with the language on the Purestrains data sheet.

In the points costs the Jackals are rated as 4-15 strong units. So I assume it works.

Anyway I just have 2 boxes of them so I will have to play 4 + 1 Wolfquad.

 Jrandom wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I'm pretty sure that's using Power Rating. If you're using points, you should be able to take any number from 4-12, plus a quad for every four.

I would have to politely disagree, compare it with the language on the Purestrains data sheet.

This would mean that they work differently than every other unit in the game, and I just don't believe that's the case. The points page give a per-model cost, not a per-4 cost. I'm sure it'll be clarified in the FAQ.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
Personally I'm still trying to find a reason to take Genestealers in a Genestealer Cult army.

1. 3 points More expensive than "Tyranid" Genestealers.
2. No Cult Creed/Hive Fleet "Chapter Tactics".
3. Can be transported in Goliaths/Rockgrinders.
4. Cult Ambush and/or Underground.

And what is the deal with the stats?
* Patriarch has a BS / Brood Lord does not
* Tyranid Genestealers have a BS / Purestrains does not
I'm not really upset about it and the only benefit I could see for Purestrains to have a BS is the highly unlikely occurance of when mounted on a Goliath with Blasting Charges. But still, some continuity please?

I also just noticed that the Patriarch doesn’t come with Unquestioning Loyalty. So no “Look out Sir!” for him. I really hope that gets FAQed, for fluff alone.

That's because the Patriarch isn't the one jumping in front of bullets. Other units can protect him just fine.

Read the "Ambush Markers" rule in the codex in full, in particular the section where it says "Note that although these units are arriving as Reinforcements"

Unless it is FAQed, revealing a unit as a blip is arriving as Reinforcements and you may use Lying in Wait.

the_scotsman wrote:
Read the "Ambush Markers" rule in the codex in full, in particular the section where it says "Note that although these units are arriving as Reinforcements"

Unless it is FAQed, revealing a unit as a blip is arriving as Reinforcements and you may use Lying in Wait.

Wow, that's huge if what you say is correct. "Underground" Leman Russ' appearing anywhere...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zimko wrote:
That's because the Patriarch isn't the one jumping in front of bullets. Other units can protect him just fine.

And...notice all other GSC characters have Unquestioning Loyalty. Which means you can use characters to soak wounds on other characters...assuming you would rather lose a Nexos than your Patriarch or what have you.

 Lord Clinto wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Read the "Ambush Markers" rule in the codex in full, in particular the section where it says "Note that although these units are arriving as Reinforcements"

Unless it is FAQed, revealing a unit as a blip is arriving as Reinforcements and you may use Lying in Wait.

Wow, that's huge if what you say is correct. "Underground" Leman Russ' appearing anywhere...

still dont think you can get out of your deployment zone turn 1 with this, so you would spend 2 cp to deploy somewhere else in your deployment zone.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
He... Asked questions... I responded to his questions...

Are you attempting to imply I cannot reply to a question when someone directly asks for them, because the answer is "Glaringly obvious"? I had to explain further because people then misunderstood the assertion, even as you did by suggesting the cheap options I laid out in my original post, absent from my subsequent replies.

You're not typically one to be so condescending, so I'm going to go ahead and assume this commentary is out of the ordinary and not intentional.

Yea I definitely wasn't being condescending, or at least trying to be, I can see how it read that way though. I think folks misunderstood you initially because you made a broad statement, without pointing out the exceptions, so it seemed like you were being cut and dry about your assertion. So others pointed out those and you assumed those points were obvious, so it just seemed odd to me. I initially thought you had a deeper counter point, which isn't me trying to blast you, it's more me respecting your insight and expecting there to be a bit more. So, no hard feeling bud, sorry I rubbed you wrong. I am a blunt, but very comical in person, online that doesn't translate sometimes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sotahullu wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
I disagree with the "no heavy weapons on Neophytes" thing. Will definitely try Mining lasers on them. They are the only worthwile AT shooting in the army and are not really expensive. Also you can make them hit on 3+ with the Alphus.

Agree. Neophytes are already quite cheap so giving few high str weapons does not harm you but does harm enemies.

I am coming full circle and starting to think the best lists will be mostly neophytes and brood bros. I love our assault elements, but this book didn't actually fix the problems with ambush. The major issue being arriving turn 2. Summoning is the only reach around... er, back ally... lol you get what i mean

Neophytes can easily be boosted to BS 3+ and backed by kellermorphs can reroll 1's as well when facing horde. BTW the kellermorph is just insane when played with neophytes. I am working on converting my 3rd. You could potentially summon a few more as well. They don't synergize with acolytes as well because you don't want to shoot a unit you are charging.

Nastavious wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Read the "Ambush Markers" rule in the codex in full, in particular the section where it says "Note that although these units are arriving as Reinforcements"

Unless it is FAQed, revealing a unit as a blip is arriving as Reinforcements and you may use Lying in Wait.

Wow, that's huge if what you say is correct. "Underground" Leman Russ' appearing anywhere...

still dont think you can get out of your deployment zone turn 1 with this, so you would spend 2 cp to deploy somewhere else in your deployment zone.

The rules as they are written on Lying in Wait supersede the usual rules for arriving via reserves. Otherwise, if you used it on a unit arriving from Underground, you could not deploy within 9"...

I agree it's probably unintentional. It also may be FAQed. But there is so much in this codex that I can't believe would be intentional that this is honestly the least of my concerns...

zamerion wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
How good is the idea of using a mass infantry army with twisted helix advancing up the field? They have +1 S and also +2 advance, which could make them pretty interesting for this.

I've been thinking about this since the codex came out. Orkish style.

The problem with ambush it's not just failing the charge. If you have a lot of units in reserves, and the opponent has mobility, can deny areas easy the first turn.

40 acolytes in reserves with heavy weapons for perfect ambush turn 2-3, and some points for summon first turn.

everything else acolytes on the table. (150+ acolytes its possible)

With clamavus, and twisted helix you have +3 to advance, so the second turn you are with everything in combat, and you can possibly charge with one unit the first turn too (psychic stimulus).

If you dont have enough acolytes, neophytes with shotguns would not be bad either

You don't want a horde of acolytes on the table though, they are too easily screened and have no ranged threat. As a thought experiment try beating an equal amount of points spent on neophytes and brood bros with your horde of acolytes. They will rinse you with fire from range and just create an onion formation so your only every over killing the outside wrap. Acolytes are good, but you want to make sure you don't go overboard with them either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Caspian89 wrote:
So if I keep a measly 60points in reserve for Psychic Summons I am guaranteed a turn 1 Sanctus (using Perfect Ambush for 0 CPs, equipped as the situation warrants) or turn 1 Kellermorph coming down and disrupting characters turn 1? If I reserve 120 points to do it again I have even more flexibility and can pop-in a 20 model unit of Neophytes on turn 1 within rapid-fire range....geez, there's your screen clearing.

Can you imagine how annoyed and tilted your opponent will be by this? It's not Genestealers turn 1....but it's something.

Seems like a very powerful trick for very few points and very few moving parts. No psychic roll required...

Perfect ambush is used in the movement phase, so you cannot use it on a summoned unit. You can use lying in wait, but against a prepared opponent your odds of getting a character are lower. As far as screen clearance, don't get ahead of yourself. I used a 15 acolyte hand flamer unit on a loyal 32 and it didn't do much. Between prepared positions and take cover on the nearest unit you won't kill as much as your hoping. Same would apply to neophytes. The real value on that maneuver is hedging their movement turn 1, and less about killing them all.

You can, sort of, after a fashion, Perfecf Ambush once you’ve summoned something. We have a psychic power that does much the same thing.

Not ideal overall as we need to cast it first, but good enough to be factored in. Can be a nasty surprise when your opponent thinks you’re out of CPs.

 Astmeister wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


1: By goliath I assume you mean rockgrinder. I ran mine with the clearance incinerator, and turn 1 when I revealed the blip I used "lying in wait" stratagem to make it appear on one flank of my opponent, threatening the manticore which was screened by only one infantry squad (most of the screens were in front of the big unit of servitors). It was full of an acolyte squad with demo charges and hand flamers, and it was meant as a distraction/threat piece. Since he ignored it to try and focus on the large bunch of shooting units clumped around the jackal alphus, it was able to flame out the infantry squad and charge the manticore after 2 turns, meaning the manticore only got to fire 2 of its missiles not on overwatch. It also should have mulched the enemy warlord, but he rolled supremely well on his invuln saves.

If lying in wait is really working with a rockgrinder, I assume it will get FAQed immediately.

Lying in wait doesn't specify unit type but it does require the unit to be reinforcements. This way of playing is kind of having it best of both ways. We know GW has said blips aren't counted as reinforcements and thusly you can deploy everything as blips counters, that tells me you can't use lying in wait on them. So even as of now I disagree with playing them that way and as soon as GW officially clarifies blips as not being reinforcements it is surely dead.

Speaking of perfect ambush, for a shooty list it seems like the perfect thing to use on a kelermorph. Drop him in with Perfect ambush, use Lying in Wait on a demolition acolyte squad, then shred something with a double shooting kelermorph and give a million rerollable grenades to the acolytes.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You can, sort of, after a fashion, Perfecf Ambush once you’ve summoned something. We have a psychic power that does much the same thing.

Not ideal overall as we need to cast it first, but good enough to be factored in. Can be a nasty surprise when your opponent thinks you’re out of CPs.

I have no idea what power your describing.

Psychic Stimulus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay...let’s get serial when it comes to filth. Not just filth, but filthy filth.

See, so far I’ve been focusing on a single creed (Rusted Claw, as it happens). But then I got pondering. And when I ponder, I stroke my beard (you may not. Admire it by all means, but no touchy). And when I stroke my beard, ideas come to me.

Because in my prototype 1,000 point list, I think I can rejig things very slightly to include a Vanguard Detachment. Not only does that open up the potential for a second Creed benefit, but adds a further CP (luvverly), UNT a second set of those filthy, dirty elites we love and our opponents hate...the Kelermorph and Sanctus. All without harshing the necessaries for my Batallion.

What other nasty gubbins might we be able to do at effectively no cost?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know......sometimes I disgust myself.

Vanguard Detachments for the extra CP and tasty Creeds....

Mine will be a relatively piffling 230 points, and consist of....

Jackal Alphus
Kelermorph
Sanctus with Sniper Rifle
Locus (because he’s dead, dead cheap, rather than actually useful).

In Matched Play, that can mean three Kelermorph, three Sanctus and three Jackal Alphus.

No. Character. Will. Be. Safe.

I don't see how psychic stimulus and perfect ambush are similar.