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Im going to throw a supreme comand detachment of gsc into my nid list.

Alphus jackal, abdominant, patriarch or second abdom,
10 abberants with hammers. Popping them up together should kill anhthing my nids cant normally handle. For a cool price of 500ish points

Plus psyker power oberlap is sexy.

I stil do not know where I stand on GS.

Are they just worse acolyte hybrids?

Hybrid metamorphs are great for infantery. 50 attacs hitting on 2. Rerolling 1.

Acolyte hybrids are cheap enough to spam them. Saws makes you threaten knights.

Abberants kills knights.

If you are twisted helix all of these are S5 or S10. Wherr does the GS fit in? Is it for the turn after as their threath range is long? Often the strike team gets viped out.

Are GS and abberants more survivabel? I have not done any research into how hard they are to kill. Pure genestealers are fast, but then why not ally with nids? I am puzzeled.

Acolyte Special Weapons.

I for one am favouring the Heavy Rock Drill.

Whilst it has the weediest base profile, those Mortal Wounds are looking awfully tasty. Especially when I put multiple into a brood.

Characters, Tanks, multi-wound infantry? All are under threat from the Drill. All of them. Main downside is relatively expensive, and the ability only triggers once per target model. But that's about it. And I'm happy to pay a premium for that added flexibility.

Four in a squad of 10 doesn't break the bank. With a bit of jammy rolling, there's little they can't tickle.

dreadlybrew wrote:
Im going to throw a supreme comand detachment of gsc into my nid list.

Alphus jackal, abdominant, patriarch or second abdom,
10 abberants with hammers. Popping them up together should kill anhthing my nids cant normally handle. For a cool price of 500ish points

Plus psyker power oberlap is sexy.

Just remember that you can only take one of each character per detachment. So I don't think you could take the second Abominant in the SC Detachment.

dreadlybrew wrote:
Im going to throw a supreme comand detachment of gsc into my nid list.

Alphus jackal, abdominant, patriarch or second abdom,
10 abberants with hammers. Popping them up together should kill anhthing my nids cant normally handle. For a cool price of 500ish points

Plus psyker power oberlap is sexy.

I also don't think you need the Alphus Jackal. She can only support GSC models, so her aura does not have any effect on your army except for herself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:
I stil do not know where I stand on GS.

Are they just worse acolyte hybrids?

Hybrid metamorphs are great for infantery. 50 attacs hitting on 2. Rerolling 1.

Acolyte hybrids are cheap enough to spam them. Saws makes you threaten knights.

Abberants kills knights.

If you are twisted helix all of these are S5 or S10. Wherr does the GS fit in? Is it for the turn after as their threath range is long? Often the strike team gets viped out.

Are GS and abberants more survivabel? I have not done any research into how hard they are to kill. Pure genestealers are fast, but then why not ally with nids? I am puzzeled.

GS are significantly faster than any of the GSC melee beatsticks. They also have more staying power with T4 5++ and can fight against most units in the game. They have more attacks than the Acolytes and are almost as good against hordes as the metamorphs.
I think they integrated them pretty perfectly in the GSC army. From a fluff perspective any GSC Cult just has very few purestrains. And ruleswise you probably do not want to take more than 1 unit in your GSC army.

 Niiai wrote:
I stil do not know where I stand on GS.

Are they just worse acolyte hybrids?

Hybrid metamorphs are great for infantery. 50 attacs hitting on 2. Rerolling 1.

Acolyte hybrids are cheap enough to spam them. Saws makes you threaten knights.

Abberants kills knights.

If you are twisted helix all of these are S5 or S10. Wherr does the GS fit in? Is it for the turn after as their threath range is long? Often the strike team gets viped out.

Are GS and abberants more survivabel? I have not done any research into how hard they are to kill. Pure genestealers are fast, but then why not ally with nids? I am puzzeled.

A Purestrain bomb hits almost as hard as 2 Acolyte bombs except in the one turn. Because they lack cult creeds I honestly think this may be their only real niche.

The jackal affects the abberants amd abdoms Im negating the minus 1 from hammers

On another note, I can't really see the point of taking Neophytes? I guess they get cult creeds but aside from that, considering points and orders, aren't brood brothers just better as objective holders/detachment fillers?

dreadlybrew wrote:
The jackal affects the abberants amd abdoms Im negating the minus 1 from hammers

Not in the assault phase I believe?

you are correct. If i can find a way to fight in the shooting phase it will work. i will learn to read better. maybe its worth taking the magus in the SC detachment instead

Gordoape wrote:
On another note, I can't really see the point of taking Neophytes? I guess they get cult creeds but aside from that, considering points and orders, aren't brood brothers just better as objective holders/detachment fillers?

Nope.

Neophytes get more toys. And benefitting from Creeds, can get as good as a 3+ save whilst in cover, making them somewhat more durable than Brood Brothers.

10 Brood Brothers can have a single Special Weapon (Flamer or Grenade Launcher only), and a HWT. And unless allied in from AM, don't get Orders.

Neophytes can have up to two Heavy Weapons, and two Special Weapons (Flamer, Grenade Launcher or Webber). Equipped with duel Flamers, they become a much thornier prospect to assault than Brood Brothers.

Well a Primus wpukd give you +1 to hit and reroll ones to wound. Can't say I'm a massive fan of him though compared with just more acolytes / aberrants

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Gordoape wrote:
On another note, I can't really see the point of taking Neophytes? I guess they get cult creeds but aside from that, considering points and orders, aren't brood brothers just better as objective holders/detachment fillers?

Nope.

Neophytes get more toys. And benefitting from Creeds, can get as good as a 3+ save whilst in cover, making them somewhat more durable than Brood Brothers.

10 Brood Brothers can have a single Special Weapon (Flamer or Grenade Launcher only), and a HWT. And unless allied in from AM, don't get Orders.

Neophytes can have up to two Heavy Weapons, and two Special Weapons (Flamer, Grenade Launcher or Webber). Equipped with duel Flamers, they become a much thornier prospect to assault than Brood Brothers.

True but with Guardsmen you really never want to take special or heavy weapons anyways. Why would those be more worthwhile with neophytes (honest question)? Personally I see so many other places I'd rather put those points in this new codex.

Also, can you confirm that GSC-battalion brood brothers are not able to take orders from an allied Company Commander? From my reading, they would still be able to just fine.

True but with Guardsmen you really never want to take special or heavy weapons anyways. Why would those be more worthwhile with neophytes (honest question)? Personally I see so many other places I'd rather put those points in this new codex.

Also, can you confirm that GSC-battalion brood brothers are not able to take orders from an allied Company Commander? From my reading, they would still be able to just fine.

They don't have the right keyword so far as I can tell.

Will need to double check my codex when I get home though.

C4E Neophytes from Deliverance Broodsurge detachment near a Clamavus have +2 to charge out of deepstrike and re-roll to charges (very likely that they make it in). With a Patriarch, you can basically deploy a bunch of fearless screens INTO combat with your opponent, after rapidfiring of course.

Also, if you already have a Primus and an Iconward, putting a 20 man Deliverance Neophyte Squad near them can actually hurt. 3+ to hit, re-rolling 1's, S4 and +1 to wound? Just cheap effeciency, straight out of deepstrike, good chance of making their chance, no real worries if they don't.

I appreciate the arguments (and willing to accept I could be very wrong), but gotta say they aren't too compelling to me so far. When you consider the points saved using brood brothers instead.

Don't use them then, but Brood brothers simply cannot do what Neophytes can.

Where do people standon the mining laser Neophytes? It is significantly cheaper then the lascannon.

Now that the laser is confirmed D d6, I'm a fan.

 Niiai wrote:
Where do people standon the mining laser Neophytes? It is significantly cheaper then the lascannon.

I tried them in my test game, thought they were alright in a little firebase paired with a jackal alphus. I think if you're comparing a neophyte squad with two MLs in a goliath with a Ridgerunner with HML and spotter I don't know if the increased durability is worth the extra points - though the neophyte squad is a hell of a lot more durable. Also a troop slot, which might be the biggest thing recommending it.

Achilles, HML, Spotter: 84pts

Pros: 30" range plus scout move means turn 1 you will probably not be at BS5+
Lascannon shots buffable by alphus


Goliath, Neophytes: 146pts

Pros: 2 extra autocannons, 8 autoguns
2 extra wounds on the vehicle body, 6+++, have to get thru vehicle and neos to kill the lasers
Troop slot
Cons: Lasers not buffable by Alphus if in transport
58pts more expensive

So, depends how you want to structure your list. I think most people are going to be going for Bladed Cog or Rusted Claw in their "Actual GSC Stuff" detachment, with C4AE being your "I brought some Brood Brothers Magus and Patriarch" detachment, so I would definitely say for Bladed Cog the neophytes sound pretty fun because you can move them up and attack.

Maybe if you skipped the transport, went bladed cog, gave them GLs as well and stuck them in an Alphus+Iconward aura?

Plus people are getting carried away by the orders a bit. If your deepstrikng a tempester prime and a couple blobs you need a massive landing zone. If you can secure one, it is amazing and well worth it's price, but it is not that easy. The more of these you stack in the harder the task of getting space gets. It's why I think your going to want 2 squads and a prime from a supreme command or outrider so you can grab either tank commanders or hellhounds to make the AM detachment worth it's opportunity cost.

You could choose to standard deploy a lump of these and use move move move turn 1, but that requires the guys giving orders to be on the table and they don't have cult ambush. That means he's sitting in a see of blips and they know where they are exactly, I'd love playing that in the mirror match since even after revealing markers he can't benefit from unquestioning loyalty. I'll love being able to counter deploy exactly where the officers are and snipe them with my Alphas and Sanctus if need be (sanctus in the movement phase of either turn). There are ways to hide with terrain still, but it is definitely going to mess with your turn 1 movement since orders go off in the shooting phase. But then they are just running up into the guns and are FAR less durable then neophytes.

This will make things like Vindicares much scarier as well.

Generally your going to want to deepstrike this lot. Personally I am going to try it with a prime and two 20 man BB units. I haven't decided if I prefer hellhounds or tank commanders as well to clear a zone.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Where do people standon the mining laser Neophytes? It is significantly cheaper then the lascannon.

I tried them in my test game, thought they were alright in a little firebase paired with a jackal alphus. I think if you're comparing a neophyte squad with two MLs in a goliath with a Ridgerunner with HML and spotter I don't know if the increased durability is worth the extra points - though the neophyte squad is a hell of a lot more durable. Also a troop slot, which might be the biggest thing recommending it.

Achilles, HML, Spotter: 84pts

Pros: 30" range plus scout move means turn 1 you will probably not be at BS5+
Lascannon shots buffable by alphus


Goliath, Neophytes: 146pts

Pros: 2 extra autocannons, 8 autoguns
2 extra wounds on the vehicle body, 6+++, have to get thru vehicle and neos to kill the lasers
Troop slot
Cons: Lasers not buffable by Alphus if in transport
58pts more expensive

So, depends how you want to structure your list. I think most people are going to be going for Bladed Cog or Rusted Claw in their "Actual GSC Stuff" detachment, with C4AE being your "I brought some Brood Brothers Magus and Patriarch" detachment, so I would definitely say for Bladed Cog the neophytes sound pretty fun because you can move them up and attack.

Maybe if you skipped the transport, went bladed cog, gave them GLs as well and stuck them in an Alphus+Iconward aura?

Heavy Mining laser is not 24" its 36" range. I'd never take the spotter over the flares. Also, I wouldn't compare those two items. They are to be played differently IMO. So one doesn't really invalidate the other is all I am saying.

I see that you have not paid much attention to the new possibility of charging the turn 1

 Red Corsair wrote:
Plus people are getting carried away by the orders a bit. If your deepstrikng a tempester prime and a couple blobs you need a massive landing zone. If you can secure one, it is amazing and well worth it's price, but it is not that easy. The more of these you stack in the harder the task of getting space gets. It's why I think your going to want 2 squads and a prime from a supreme command or outrider so you can grab either tank commanders or hellhounds to make the AM detachment worth it's opportunity cost.

You could choose to standard deploy a lump of these and use move move move turn 1, but that requires the guys giving orders to be on the table and they don't have cult ambush. That means he's sitting in a see of blips and they know where they are exactly, I'd love playing that in the mirror match since even after revealing markers he can't benefit from unquestioning loyalty. I'll love being able to counter deploy exactly where the officers are and snipe them with my Alphas and Sanctus if need be (sanctus in the movement phase of either turn). There are ways to hide with terrain still, but it is definitely going to mess with your turn 1 movement since orders go off in the shooting phase. But then they are just running up into the guns and are FAR less durable then neophytes.

This will make things like Vindicares much scarier as well.

Generally your going to want to deepstrike this lot. Personally I am going to try it with a prime and two 20 man BB units. I haven't decided if I prefer hellhounds or tank commanders as well to clear a zone.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Where do people standon the mining laser Neophytes? It is significantly cheaper then the lascannon.

I tried them in my test game, thought they were alright in a little firebase paired with a jackal alphus. I think if you're comparing a neophyte squad with two MLs in a goliath with a Ridgerunner with HML and spotter I don't know if the increased durability is worth the extra points - though the neophyte squad is a hell of a lot more durable. Also a troop slot, which might be the biggest thing recommending it.

Achilles, HML, Spotter: 84pts

Pros: 30" range plus scout move means turn 1 you will probably not be at BS5+
Lascannon shots buffable by alphus


Goliath, Neophytes: 146pts

Pros: 2 extra autocannons, 8 autoguns
2 extra wounds on the vehicle body, 6+++, have to get thru vehicle and neos to kill the lasers
Troop slot
Cons: Lasers not buffable by Alphus if in transport
58pts more expensive

So, depends how you want to structure your list. I think most people are going to be going for Bladed Cog or Rusted Claw in their "Actual GSC Stuff" detachment, with C4AE being your "I brought some Brood Brothers Magus and Patriarch" detachment, so I would definitely say for Bladed Cog the neophytes sound pretty fun because you can move them up and attack.

Maybe if you skipped the transport, went bladed cog, gave them GLs as well and stuck them in an Alphus+Iconward aura?

Heavy Mining laser is not 24" its 36" range. I'd never take the spotter over the flares. Also, I wouldn't compare those two items. They are to be played differently IMO. So one doesn't really invalidate the other is all I am saying.

They don't invalidate each other, but if you're using the ML neophytes as a mechanized unit, I think they are comparable and worth contrasting.

I also think you are heavily overestimating how difficult it is going to be to deploy BBs in their effective range. If we were talking about the combo that was getting chatter when the leaks first came out - Lying in Wait Handflamer Acolytes, who are IMO laughable at this point now that we know BBs exist - I'd probably agree with you. But if I start with a good amount of chaff removal on the board to take care of nurglings/Movemovemove infantry/other fast elements that would attmept to box out my deep strike zones, I don't think I have too much to worry about from that tactic. The only list I think has a legitimate chance of pulling it off is something like flyer spam, and as I said before, the only flyer spam list currently in the meta seems to be eldar flyer spam. Every one of those on the board against us is a unit that will be doing next to nothing to kill our units.

If you somehow end up in the situation where your enemy simultaneously has a ton of snipers and a ton of deep strike zone denial...sure, you're in trouble. I don't know of that list in the current competitive meta. If I'm up against 3x vindicares, I am probably not also up against nurglings. If I'm up against six eldar flyers, the rest of the army is venoms full of Kabalites usually, not snipers.

It'll have to wait until we actually see competitive GSC lists. But I know I will be amazed if those competitive lists do not regularly feature at least 40 BBs in deep strike.

You didn't fully understand me then. I don't have an issue with ordered BB's. I have an issue with imbalanced lists that take the thing that looks great one minute and spams it to the nth degree.

I have seen lists in the last two pages with 120 brood bros, I definitely am not saying they are bad, but that's far too many IMHO. You were suggesting earlier that they are on par with conscripts which isn't even remotely true. Conscripts at the time of abuse were 3ppm, S4 from catachan, lost a max 1 guy from LD, had 3 attacks and could be given a 4+ save 3+ from shooting(take cover strat) and a 2+ in cover AND -1 to hit all prior to receiving orders. No, BB platoons are nowhere in the same galaxy as catachan conscripts were.

They max out at a standard GEQ profile with fearless. Which is good, don't get me wrong, but your only getting single s3 punches in assault, and FRFSRF. Most crucially, your not very durable.

All I am saying is I wouldn't over invest in them over neophytes. Neophytes make a far better anchor and are much more flexible, they also can receive every aura we have.

EDIT

All I meant in regard to your ML comparison was they shouldn't be looked at as competition. I knew what you meant, but I could see someone taking it the wrong way so we are in agreement there.

Also note, we are mostly in agreement on BB, I just disagree with the notion that 120+ of these guys is not making your list weaker in the end by over doing it. That's all.

PS I was saying from the start that ~40 was the right number. 60 depending on your list maybe.

Here's a question: Do Bladed Cog models with Heavy Weapons ignore the -1 to hit while moving if they're mounted on a moving goliath?

 JNAProductions wrote:
I made a list I would like critique on.

Much appreciated!

Make that two.

So, I made two lists earlier and never got critique on them. They're my first attempt, so they can almost certainly be improved vastly-but I'd like assistance with that.

Have been playing two squads of Neos with MLs in Goliaths since Index times. They were garbage before and are decent now. In my experience they need the Goliath for the movement. Otherwise they often won't reach their targets with their 24" guns.

They ARE buffable by the Alphus btw. So you could take them in Bladed Cog detachment and have them hit on 3s even after moving with the Goliath (if they are in range of the Alphus).

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, I made two lists earlier and never got critique on them. They're my first attempt, so they can almost certainly be improved vastly-but I'd like assistance with that.

My own position on both lists is that I don't like 5 man acolyte squads. I don't think they do very much except die. I'm happy for someone to prove me wrong - and lots of ob sec squads running around can be useful - but melee squads that have a high chance of dying (or being reduced to 2 models) from overwatch don't do much in my opinion. Have you had success with them? You seem to be really going after CPs - but if there isn't much to really benefit from them I don't see what the point is.

Also you want a Nexos. Or maybe you don't because you have so many CP already - but eh... I'd cut the detachment CP and bring one.

With that said - and its a wider point on the thread - a lot of this comes down to "what version of the game are you playing". I.e. CA18 missions, ITC, ETC etc.

Because I think these 240~ body lists would be great for CA18. I'm not convinced its especially fun for either player to play - but you put that many bodies on the objectives and I think a lot of opponents will not be able to shift you off in time.
I'm not convinced its so good for ITC. Its too one-dimensional. You will give up secondaries, probably lose more units every turn and not really be able to get at certain armies.

I'm also in the camp that thinks GS are pointless. The ability to assault and charge is pretty much all they have over acolytes. Thats nice, but for double the points? Shuppets right about having more power for a single punch - but this raises issues of overkill and really gambling on that charge roll.
I really think they should have got chapter tactics and if need be go up another point or two. Kraken GS don't break the game at 12 points, I'm not convinced C4E/Helix etc would break the game at 15. I guess a 4++ with Cog might be an issue (DE say hello.)

Its an issue though that Acolytes, GS, Metamorphs all basically do minor variations of the same thing. One of them will win out.

Tyel wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, I made two lists earlier and never got critique on them. They're my first attempt, so they can almost certainly be improved vastly-but I'd like assistance with that.

My own position on both lists is that I don't like 5 man acolyte squads. I don't think they do very much except die. I'm happy for someone to prove me wrong - and lots of ob sec squads running around can be useful - but melee squads that have a high chance of dying (or being reduced to 2 models) from overwatch don't do much in my opinion. Have you had success with them? You seem to be really going after CPs - but if there isn't much to really benefit from them I don't see what the point is.

Also you want a Nexos. Or maybe you don't because you have so many CP already - but eh... I'd cut the detachment CP and bring one.

With that said - and its a wider point on the thread - a lot of this comes down to "what version of the game are you playing". I.e. CA18 missions, ITC, ETC etc.

Because I think these 240~ body lists would be great for CA18. I'm not convinced its especially fun for either player to play - but you put that many bodies on the objectives and I think a lot of opponents will not be able to shift you off in time.
I'm not convinced its so good for ITC. Its too one-dimensional. You will give up secondaries, probably lose more units every turn and not really be able to get at certain armies.

I'm also in the camp that thinks GS are pointless. The ability to assault and charge is pretty much all they have over acolytes. Thats nice, but for double the points? Shuppets right about having more power for a single punch - but this raises issues of overkill and really gambling on that charge roll.
I really think they should have got chapter tactics and if need be go up another point or two. Kraken GS don't break the game at 12 points, I'm not convinced C4E/Helix etc would break the game at 15. I guess a 4++ with Cog might be an issue (DE say hello.)

Its an issue though that Acolytes, GS, Metamorphs all basically do minor variations of the same thing. One of them will win out.

I agree about Genestealers (for being the name of the codex) are almost pointless; they need cult creeds I think. And Metamorphs seem like utter garbage compared to regular Hybrids.

And there really is no reason not to include a Nexos; just the possibility of regaining CP in such a CP hungry army is worth his 50 points.

How viable do people think putting a mob of Genestealers in a Goliath would be? Tempting target yes, but not terribly so; and would give the GS a little more survivability until the truck is popped.