Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

EDIT: DON'T BOYCOTT - I initially made this post in too aggressive a stance. I apologize for causing the 14th Black Crusade.

I apologize for the grief I may have caused some in responding to this thread.

=========================

Hey-o

Resident White Knight here.

I'm here to tell you that we need to boycott GSC (well, send them a strongly worded letter). For you GSC players that are super excited about this book - you're going to be really angry at me and I get that...
...but if you want to build a better game you need to follow me on this.

This book is insane levels of powerful.

You might think I'm exaggerating. I always recommend people try something before they come to a judgement, but these issues are so clear and present to me that I cannot take that route this time.

I don't need bs posts about selling new models - the bikes are pretty meh, so you're premise is flawed.

I won't go over everything - you can come to your own conclusions here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wConvy5p0

The silver lining? Geoff's commentary is hilarious.

Think I'm a silly person? That's ok, but GW will need to address this book one way or another ASAP or this game is crippled until Sep/Dec. Also a whole lot of people are going to buy a whole lot of models that need nerfing. I'm sure GW won't mind, but it's not what we should support or expect.

Think I'm missing something? Feel free to post it and try to change my mind.

I mean am sure someone crafty with all those blips and horde units and ton of extra rules could turn the game in to his turn 1 only, but that is hardly insane level. Maybe GSC get a lot better with index units GW missed or tyranids, but that is not for me to judge. Some of their units do seem annoying as hell, but they hardly are the only one army with annoying units.

Geoff was wrong; Genestealers and Patriarchs don't get Cult Creeds. Also, the Mental Onslaught also stops doing further mortal wounds if you fail to cause one, which means your opponent "wins" the roll on ties for that power. For a Broodlord to get "instant-kill" on a target, he needs to be up to Ld11, and his opponent needs to be down to Ld5 for there to be no chance at this happening. At Ld6, you need to roll a 1, and they need to roll a 6, but they can still stop you. At Ld7, you need to roll a 1 and they need to roll a 5 or 6, or you need to roll a 2 and they need to roll a 6. At Ld8, things start compounding quickly, and you're unlikely to get more than 3 wounds off the target. A Ld9 you might not even get 1. At Ld10 it's awful.

The book is good, but only so far as Dark Eldar are good. Hey, that's a great bar! I'll be doing backflips if my GSC can be as good as Dark Eldar. But they're not going to break the game, and this kind of post is just screaming about a sky that isn't falling.

I agree actually. Woot, same page for the first time! (i think)

I'm not buying any more GW products until they do something about balance.

It also rankles me that they're increasing the price of paints and start collecting kits. It's a very "old GW" move.

You're talking absolute rubbish, the codex looks strong but not particularly so, actual damage output at range can be a problem and turn 1 charges aren't going to happen. They very much look like a glasshammer army that will defintiely hit hard but staying power could be a real problem for them.

Now I agree this looks bad, but a boycott?

Wouldn't it be better to remind them to stop doing codexcreep?

 Imateria wrote:
You're talking absolute rubbish, the codex looks strong but not particularly so, actual damage output at range can be a problem and turn 1 charges aren't going to happen. They very much look like a glasshammer army that will defintiely hit hard but staying power could be a real problem for them.

False.

When models are cheap they are durable. Points per wound defines durability. And anything they need to cover can be done with AM.

Also Blips are very, very strong. There's no downside and they deny all DS for *free*.

This is literally the same response people had to Orks supposed power. Howd that work out?

Regarding OP's post my answer is no: I am not going to boycott.

Also, I've preordered the codex and dice for my collection even though I am not going to collect GSC. Regarding power of codex I will give it a chance and see how enjoyable it is to play against them. If I experience Matt Ward level of tomfoolery in a couple of games I will do what I did back when Matt Ward did tomfoolery: Not play against that particular army. Sure, I probably can't pick and choose in tournaments, but in general play I can play with whomever I want, as can anyone else.

 Marmatag wrote:
Also Blips are very, very strong. There's no downside and they deny all DS for *free*.

Did you actually read how the blips work? They're removed at the end of the first movement phase (yours or your opponent's), which means they won't be there when you DS on turn 2, reading, it's not just for kindergarten. Furthermore, the stratagem to move them is restricted to your deployment zone, so you can't even use it to get extra movement or deny anything.

 vaklor4 wrote:
This is literally the same response people had to Orks supposed power. Howd that work out?

Speaking of Orks, has anyone got any real experience in how they compete in the big leagues. Are they competitive? Have they been improved from their last codex? Not just in the moving about of power. but are they a more capable army? And how are the 2019 lists adjusting to deal with the Ork lists that are coming out?

Back on topic though, I haven't had much of a chance to read through the Genestealer Cult codex yet, but I see the army as being more of a noob-stomper type of army. It will really wreck face against mid-tier armies, and top tier armies being piloted by less skilled players. I still think that Ynarri-Drukhari and Imperium Soup lists will remain the top 2 lists as they have for months though.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
You're talking absolute rubbish, the codex looks strong but not particularly so, actual damage output at range can be a problem and turn 1 charges aren't going to happen. They very much look like a glasshammer army that will defintiely hit hard but staying power could be a real problem for them.

False.

When models are cheap they are durable. Points per wound defines durability. And anything they need to cover can be done with AM.

Also Blips are very, very strong. There's no downside and they deny all DS for *free*.

Ugh, you could at least try to understand how their army rules work, instead of spouting off inane nonsense.

I've pre-ordered some bikes along with the book, because I love the models. Don't care if they're great or not. The pendulum swings.

 vaklor4 wrote:
This is literally the same response people had to Orks supposed power. Howd that work out?

I considered Orks to be in a good spot. These guys are way beyond that.

The hyperbole on this forum never ceases to amaze me.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Now I agree this looks bad, but a boycott?

Wouldn't it be better to remind them to stop doing codexcreep?

Money is what speaks. I'm not calling for a full boycott - just GSC. I would also hate for people to buy into what, I think, is a poorly thought out army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EnTyme wrote:
The hyperbole on this forum never ceases to amaze me.

I am often considered a white knight and I consider myself pretty level headed. Maybe I'm wrong but, disregard at your peril.

I'm glad we have you to tell us it is poorly thought out.

I mean, whew, there was me thinking it seemed refreshing and original.

And hey, where did you get a copy of the codex and find time to read it and playtest it already?

this might be the single most over the top post I've ever seen on dakka (and that's saying a lot)
1. Codex just dropped we have 0 data on how good it will actually be. People were crying about orks (not this bad but bad) and they seem to have settled in well
2. This edition has seen quick faqs and points adjustments. If it is broken it will get fixed quickly

Can we really not wait for a tournament or two before we start calling this the end times of 40k

 Yarium wrote:
Geoff was wrong; Genestealers and Patriarchs don't get Cult Creeds. Also, the Mental Onslaught also stops doing further mortal wounds if you fail to cause one, which means your opponent "wins" the roll on ties for that power. For a Broodlord to get "instant-kill" on a target, he needs to be up to Ld11, and his opponent needs to be down to Ld5 for there to be no chance at this happening. At Ld6, you need to roll a 1, and they need to roll a 6, but they can still stop you. At Ld7, you need to roll a 1 and they need to roll a 5 or 6, or you need to roll a 2 and they need to roll a 6. At Ld8, things start compounding quickly, and you're unlikely to get more than 3 wounds off the target. A Ld9 you might not even get 1. At Ld10 it's awful.

The book is good, but only so far as Dark Eldar are good. Hey, that's a great bar! I'll be doing backflips if my GSC can be as good as Dark Eldar. But they're not going to break the game, and this kind of post is just screaming about a sky that isn't falling.

I think it's less about this power and more about all the units and characters on top of traits, relics, and tactics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fifty wrote:
I'm glad we have you to tell us it is poorly thought out.

I mean, whew, there was me thinking it seemed refreshing and original.

And hey, where did you get a copy of the codex and find time to read it and playtest it already?

Geoff's video is quite informative. If you go read my older posts about similar sentiments you'll find me on the other side of this argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:
this might be the single most over the top post I've ever seen on dakka (and that's saying a lot)
1. Codex just dropped we have 0 data on how good it will actually be. People were crying about orks (not this bad but bad) and they seem to have settled in well
2. This edition has seen quick faqs and points adjustments. If it is broken it will get fixed quickly

Can we really not wait for a tournament or two before we start calling this the end times of 40k

1- I didn't cry about Orks.
2- Yes, I agree, but until then it will be a bit of a mess. If GW corrects this in Spring - fantastic. Otherwise it's a LOOONG slog. Additionally, this should not have made it out of play-testing to start, which means a big flaw in the process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I realize that I'm going to take gak for having this position - and I'm happy to be wrong, but I really don't think I am.

 Fifty wrote:
I'm glad we have you to tell us it is poorly thought out.

I mean, whew, there was me thinking it seemed refreshing and original.

And hey, where did you get a copy of the codex and find time to read it and playtest it already?

Well, I think we all know how to find a copy of the codex before launch. As for playtesting, I'm sure no one here has done much playing with it in the little amount of time it's been available. All in all, though. I'm actually fine with a boycott. Just not sure if this should be the reason for it. It SHOULD be for Games Workshop's business practices or, if it was for how overpowered stuff was, their hilariously inconsistent balancing through 8th would be a better reason. The GSC codex doesn't have the hallmarks of an overpowered codex, but it does look like a stomper codex. I'm not sure which is worse.

I suspect that, even if everything said about this book is as bad as its being made out to be, given broken books from previous editions, not much would be new about this, it's not like we haven't had insanely broken armies in other editions. Likewise, we have armies like GK that are so bad you wonder if anyone buys them, but GW still doesnt do much to fix them despite the sales pinch. Sales of rules likewise are a tertiary revenue stream, models are their primary product and source of income.


Unfortunately, I suspect anyone maintaining a boycott until GW addresses balance is going to be waiting forever. Many have crashed out over balance issues over many editions.

Going to laugh my ass off when a single Abberrant solos a Castellan after making a 7" charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Space marines should drop their thunder hammers, power fists, etc, and take some rock saws.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Geoff was wrong; Genestealers and Patriarchs don't get Cult Creeds. Also, the Mental Onslaught also stops doing further mortal wounds if you fail to cause one, which means your opponent "wins" the roll on ties for that power. For a Broodlord to get "instant-kill" on a target, he needs to be up to Ld11, and his opponent needs to be down to Ld5 for there to be no chance at this happening. At Ld6, you need to roll a 1, and they need to roll a 6, but they can still stop you. At Ld7, you need to roll a 1 and they need to roll a 5 or 6, or you need to roll a 2 and they need to roll a 6. At Ld8, things start compounding quickly, and you're unlikely to get more than 3 wounds off the target. A Ld9 you might not even get 1. At Ld10 it's awful.

The book is good, but only so far as Dark Eldar are good. Hey, that's a great bar! I'll be doing backflips if my GSC can be as good as Dark Eldar. But they're not going to break the game, and this kind of post is just screaming about a sky that isn't falling.

I think it's less about this power and more about all the units and characters on top of traits, relics, and tactics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fifty wrote:
I'm glad we have you to tell us it is poorly thought out.

I mean, whew, there was me thinking it seemed refreshing and original.

And hey, where did you get a copy of the codex and find time to read it and playtest it already?

Geoff's video is quite informative. If you go read my older posts about similar sentiments you'll find me on the other side of this argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodios wrote:
this might be the single most over the top post I've ever seen on dakka (and that's saying a lot)
1. Codex just dropped we have 0 data on how good it will actually be. People were crying about orks (not this bad but bad) and they seem to have settled in well
2. This edition has seen quick faqs and points adjustments. If it is broken it will get fixed quickly

Can we really not wait for a tournament or two before we start calling this the end times of 40k

1- I didn't cry about Orks.
2- Yes, I agree, but until then it will be a bit of a mess. If GW corrects this in Spring - fantastic. Otherwise it's a LOOONG slog. Additionally, this should not have made it out of play-testing to start, which means a big flaw in the process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I realize that I'm going to take gak for having this position - and I'm happy to be wrong, but I really don't think I am.

Ok so once again your data for them being stupidly broken is one persons video?
Also GSC originally didnt make it out of playtesting.... you know where they test it and collect actual data... It got delayed and literally just dropped. So once again you keep saying that you would be "happy to be wrong" yet you are calling for a nerf and dismissing people with 0 actual data to show that GSC is some issue

 Marmatag wrote:
Going to laugh my ass off when a single Abberrant solos a Castellan after making a 7" charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Space marines should drop their thunder hammers, power fists, etc, and take some rock saws.

Wow, GSC can ignore bubble wrapping too!?!?!?

40k is now officially broken #ChickenLittle

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Going to laugh my ass off when a single Abberrant solos a Castellan after making a 7" charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Space marines should drop their thunder hammers, power fists, etc, and take some rock saws.

Wow, GSC can ignore bubble wrapping too!?!?!?

40k is now officially broken #ChickenLittle

Given the other elements of the army - they effectively can.

 Marmatag wrote:
Going to laugh my ass off when a single Abberrant solos a Castellan after making a 7" charge.

Having played several games against Aberrants and Abominants I'm pretty sure that's not happening. They're nasty, for sure, and if a squad of them gets into melee with a Castellan it's probably toast, especially if the Abominant gets in there with them.

Of course, that's a 400 point package that will need another 2-300 points worth of support to actually get in position and pull off that charge, not to mention the CP investment.

Seems about right.

Darsath wrote:
The GSC codex doesn't have the hallmarks of an overpowered codex, but it does look like a stomper codex. I'm not sure which is worse.

This is potentially the issue.
I'm not sure how GSC is going to do versus our Aeldari and Imperial soup overlords.
But if everything works out, I can see you crushing people while they have very little chance to react. Sure it won't be turn 1 - but it all happening on turn 2 isn't going to make much difference.

*Screen better!* will be the cry - but there are lots of tools to efficiently deal with screens.

But then I don't know if thats dramatically different to a gunline rolling hot.

Asmodios wrote:

Ok so once again your data for them being stupidly broken is one persons video?
Also GSC originally didnt make it out of playtesting.... you know where they test it and collect actual data... It got delayed and literally just dropped. So once again you keep saying that you would be "happy to be wrong" yet you are calling for a nerf and dismissing people with 0 actual data to show that GSC is some issue

Ok, just have a conversation with me for a moment.

I get that having data is good. I agree - people need to play games. This has been my core tenant for the longest time. But this is the first time I have been able to clearly see where some things are going to be very, very silly.

This is an army that has:
- Easy access to CP
- Cheap, effective chaff
- Solid psychic powers
- Blisteringly good characters

It is stupidly trivial to appear within 3" for 2 CP and 160 points with 20D6 S3 autohits. And whatever doesn't survive takes on 2 WS3 S4 rending attacks and a chainsword attack. And this is the tip of the iceberg.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

But then I don't know if thats dramatically different to a gunline rolling hot.

The difference is I get to shoot at the thing that is scary in a gunline. With GSC I don't. There is no counterplay for me.

The difference is I get to shoot at the thing that is scary in a gunline. With GSC I don't. There is no counterplay for me.

A gsc player can only hide half of his army.

The other half is blips turned around at your first shooting phase.

However he still has a massive deployment advantage since he can change what units are under a blib and is not bound by that.
He only has to specify which units are underground / arrive via deepstrike.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Ok so once again your data for them being stupidly broken is one persons video?
Also GSC originally didnt make it out of playtesting.... you know where they test it and collect actual data... It got delayed and literally just dropped. So once again you keep saying that you would be "happy to be wrong" yet you are calling for a nerf and dismissing people with 0 actual data to show that GSC is some issue

Ok, just have a conversation with me for a moment.

I get that having data is good. I agree - people need to play games. This has been my core tenant for the longest time. But this is the first time I have been able to clearly see where some things are going to be very, very silly.

This is an army that has:
- Easy access to CP
- Cheap, effective chaff
- Solid psychic powers
- Blisteringly good characters

It is stupidly trivial to appear within 3" for 2 CP and 160 points with 20D6 S3 autohits. And whatever doesn't survive takes on 2 WS3 S4 rending attacks and a chainsword attack. And this is the tip of the iceberg.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

But then I don't know if thats dramatically different to a gunline rolling hot.

The difference is I get to shoot at the thing that is scary in a gunline. With GSC I don't. There is no counterplay for me.

ok so what i just read is that there is a codex that seems to be good and has a wombo combo to kill a character and because of this we shouldn't wait for data and instead should nuke now and ask questions later..... hmmmmm this sounds oddly familiar..... o yeah orks are a good dex with lots of good combos and people were claiming that the lota wombo combo was the end times.