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KurtAngle2 wrote:

Shut up marine lover, actually the GSC Stratagems can really be considered "Stratagems" and not "enhancement of an unit offensive power that should be considered into the unit's cost) since they're mostly positioning/deployment/tactical advantages and not plain "kill more"

Lol.

When you calm down, it would be fun to hear your point when it's expressed intelligibly.

Not Online!!! wrote:

hope that herple derple Kelerschmerple doesn't nuke my psyker before he gets the chance I guess?

Petition to rename kelermorph into herple-derple-Kelerschmerple, or short fritzl.

Heller Keler, and change his entry to make him blind and deaf. Yet still hits on 2+.

I will boycott GSC. I will not even play against them. Some mutilated mine workers infantry that dont suffer the penalty to move and shoot heavy weapons ? SM cant do that. Vets cant do that. Dev squads cant do that, and they are trained to use heavy weapons. SM are elite warriors, especially designed for combat, with real weapons. Not some mining tools what GSC uses as improvised weapons. Not even custodes have that ability. WTF ? They can add D6 models to a troop choice for 1 CP. No other faction can do that, i think. They can move D6" after deepstriking for some CP, dont know how many exactly. What ? Is there any other faction which can do that ? I dont think so. GSC are ridiculous.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I agree actually. Woot, same page for the first time! (i think)

I'm not buying any more GW products until they do something about balance.

It also rankles me that they're increasing the price of paints and start collecting kits. It's a very "old GW" move.

It is not. At least with the paints. GW does a ton of “how to” videos that they don’t charge for, a painting app that demonstrates paint schemes, employs Duncan, etc etc. We don’t pay for those; except we do, in the cost of the paints. You actually pay Duncan’s salary by buying paints. There are a ton of free paint add-ons. If you’re using those add-one, you’re likely buying GW paint. And thus paying for those add-one. But Duncan and the other guys likely get salary bonuses/raises...and that’s where the $0.25 hike comes from. 100% fine with the prices on paints.

I agree, a pot of paint lasts me quite a while so a couple extra cents isn't the end of the world. But as far as the start collecting boxes go. I'm not impressed with the price hike unless they are changing the contents of the boxes.

Let's be honest though some of GWs boxes made no sense. Crisis suits cost 90 but a start collecting box with crisis suits costs 100, an Onager costs 80 but a box costs 100 etc..

Not Online!!! wrote:

hope that herple derple Kelerschmerple doesn't nuke my psyker before he gets the chance I guess?

Petition to rename kelermorph into herple-derple-Kelerschmerple, or short fritzl.

signed!

I thought he was Jeans Dealer, Cowboy Outlaw Ghost Clone with Triple Copyrightcannons?

We had to rename him in the other thread because so many people were getting fluff aneurisms because he wasn't a named character, just a one-per-detachment limited character with unique wargear and rules BUT NO NAME and THE WEAPONS WEREN'T UNIQUE SOUNDING ENOUGH.

Dem feels when “Herple Derple Kelerschmerple” is the best thing you’ve ever said on a board where you’ve made 2000 odd posts.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Dem feels when “Herple Derple Kelerschmerple” is the best thing you’ve ever said on a board where you’ve made 2000 odd posts.

So kelermorph allready has three nicknames :

Jeans Dealer. The gunslinging Terrorist.

Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple.

Fritzl, because he bags your charachters and brings them into the Keller.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Ah so balanced that the majority of their units have innate deepstrike. Only 50% to deal with.

Yeah, it's kind of their thing. Of course if you go first you have two turns to beat the crap out of 50% of their army, potentially with 100% of yours, which, honestly, if you can't make that work, I don't know what to tell you, but the flaw is not the rules at that point. Even if you don't you only have to deal with 50% of their army attacking potentially 100% of yours. Also, pretty much any army can do this, even your 'woe is me' Orks.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Lol wut? Here's how it'll pan out: 'oh man I sure hope my AV weapon is in range of something useful! Oh those blips were all infantry huh? Well at least I have my charging units (that have to stay 9" away) over there ready to rock! Oh they charged a bunch of melee beatsticks....cool...cool.'

You're right, it might involve actually engaging your brain, so you might have a problem there.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Oh wow thanks genius! Better hope I deny that power or I insta lose anything. That's cool, a really good mechanic. There isn't a 'small chance' to do it. The chance is exactly as high as how much the player wants to do it. There is no counterplay except hoping I can deny? I hope that herple derple Kelerschmerple doesn't nuke my psyker before he gets the chance I guess?

Try doing the math. I know this doesn't jibe with your desire to abandon all logic in favor of complete emotional breakdown, but try actually doing the math. I'm utterly unconcerned about this power, but I have lots of ways to shut down psychic powers.

I do not like the three-armed man.
I do not like him, Guilliman!
I do not like him as a blip,
I do not like his ambush trick,
I do not like him on a bike,
I do not like him on a trike,
I do not like his lack of hair,
I do not like him anywhere!
I do not like the three-armed man,
I do not like him, Guilliman!

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I do not like the three-armed man.
I do not like him, Guilliman!
I do not like him as a blip,
I do not like his ambush trick,
I do not like him on a bike,
I do not like him on a trike,
I do not like his lack of hair,
I do not like him anywhere!
I do not like the three-armed man,
I do not like him, Guilliman!

Take mine exalt.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I do not like the three-armed man.
I do not like him, Guilliman!
I do not like him as a blip,
I do not like his ambush trick,
I do not like him on a bike,
I do not like him on a trike,
I do not like his lack of hair,
I do not like him anywhere!
I do not like the three-armed man,
I do not like him, Guilliman!

Take mine exalt.

Agreed EXAULTED!!! :-)

Edit: BTW this is my first Exalt ever..... made me laugh out loud at work...people are looking at me strangely

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Yeah, it's kind of their thing.

Is it also 'kind of their thing' to have flat better versions of other armies equivalent units?

I note you haven't addressed much of the concerns I raised, presumably because you have no response to them?

E -

Not Online!!! wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Dem feels when “Herple Derple Kelerschmerple” is the best thing you’ve ever said on a board where you’ve made 2000 odd posts.

So kelermorph allready has three nicknames :

Jeans Dealer. The gunslinging Terrorist.

Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple.

Fritzl, because he bags your charachters and brings them into the Keller.

Petition to remove "Herple Derple Kelerschmerple" from the naming list, we can't have any competition to the Boomdakka Snazzwagon that is without question the best name GW have ever made.

Again, I love that we're bringing up the Timmy combo, because it just beautifully illustrates how dakka works.

Here's what tyranid soup needs to do to successfully pull of a crazy oneshot with mental onslaught:

-Put a LD10 patriarch next to a clamavus, giving him LD11

-Successfully cast "The Horror" from a souped nid detachment on the intended target, lowering its LD by 1.

-Spend 1CP to take a Deliverance Broodsurge detachment, then take an Acolyte Iconward so you can take the Vial of Grandsire's Blood. Stand him next to Grandpappy Patriarch giving him LD12.

AFAIK....that's what we've got. A grand total of +2 to our guy, -1 to theirs with a souped ally, which means to reliably cause 9 wounds (oneshotting most normal models) your desired target must be LD8 or lower to start off with. There seems to be a way to get -1LD with an aberrant stratagem but only in the fight phase til the end of the turn (so it can't help with psychic powers).

I thought there was one more, am I forgetting something? Either way, just ignore that Eldar can pretty much stack you down to LD0 from 10 and cast Mind War with their freakshow combos and that doesn't show up in competitive play at all, a paltry 11+2D6 wounds maximum is NOTHING compared to what GSC can do if you just cast two psychic powers, spend a CP to unlock a relic, take another relic, put them on 130 points of characters, stand them next to a 120 point character, get them all into range of your intended target, and have it all go off JUST AS PLANNED!

 Carnikang wrote:
but GSC won't be as strong as people are fearing.

I find it highly unlikely that any faction that gets access to both Guard's unit library and an upgraded Vect stratagem will somehow not end up being tier1, even before considering the pushed GSC character pool and exceptional melee elements.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I note you haven't addressed much of the concerns I raised, presumably because you have no response to them?

I thought about it, but then I realized that you really want to be angry and indignant and that there was no information in existence that would change this, so why bother?

Enjoy wallowing in your butthurt, you seem very committed to it.

E -

Not Online!!! wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Dem feels when “Herple Derple Kelerschmerple” is the best thing you’ve ever said on a board where you’ve made 2000 odd posts.

So kelermorph allready has three nicknames :

Jeans Dealer. The gunslinging Terrorist.

Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple.

Fritzl, because he bags your charachters and brings them into the Keller.

Petition to remove "Herple Derple Kelerschmerple" from the naming list, we can't have any competition to the Boomdakka Snazzwagon that is without question the best name GW have ever made.

Is vetoed. Herple-derple-Kelerschmerple is now a fixture of dakka and if you utter one more concern about the nickname justly given by you to the Kelermorph, then thouh shall be exiled to a penitent crusade into the Eye of Terror.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:
but GSC won't be as strong as people are fearing.

I find it highly unlikely that any faction that gets access to both Guard's unit library and an upgraded Vect stratagem will somehow not end up being tier1, even before considering the pushed GSC character pool and exceptional melee elements.

So is it the fear of Tier 1 army play, or is it the fear of the Codex being broken that you're arguing for? Because Daedae Dee is calling for a boycott because they're broken, and fears what that will do.

Being a strong contender to fight Aeldari soup or Imperial Soup is a good thing. That is nothing to fear.

 Carnikang wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:
but GSC won't be as strong as people are fearing.

I find it highly unlikely that any faction that gets access to both Guard's unit library and an upgraded Vect stratagem will somehow not end up being tier1, even before considering the pushed GSC character pool and exceptional melee elements.

So is it the fear of Tier 1 army play, or is it the fear of the Codex being broken that you're arguing for? Because Daedae Dee is calling for a boycott because they're broken, and fears what that will do.

Being a strong contender to fight Aeldari soup or Imperial Soup is a good thing. That is nothing to fear.

Ehm isn't this more a kick to the chaos soup that spams charachters?
Imperial soup still has Castellans.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I note you haven't addressed much of the concerns I raised, presumably because you have no response to them?

I thought about it, but then I realized that you really want to be angry and indignant and that there was no information in existence that would change this, so why bother?

Enjoy wallowing in your butthurt, you seem very committed to it.

Ah that old chestnut. Its not that you don't have a response to my very logical and sensible concerns but it's that you believe you won't be able to change my opinion. Odd then that you tried to refute a few of my points? Seems contradictory in fact.

I'm not butthurt yet BTW, that will come after I play GSC and they decide to bend me over and go to town.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
GSC as a major ingredient in Nid Soup will definitely create a new powerful soup combo. I'd say primarily GSC in a brigade, small guard detachment to enable the infantry squads from GSC to be good, and nids to bring dakka tyrants/dakkafexes/etc with an aberrant bomb to remove hard targets.

However, I think the matchup vs eldar soup will be too much of a struggle to make GSC the dominant force in the universe. If you don't have a target that's good for removing with the aberrant bomb I think the power of the combo goes down somewhat, and stuff like grotesques are the exact opposite of what they want to go after.

They're amazing against a chaff screen + a big superheavy. Straight-up amazing. They don't like fighting a bunch of medium targets with invuln saves. I think Tau could also very likely put them on the strugglebus with competitive builds having plenty of answers for Keller and a bunch of deep strikers who really don't like getting shot before they charge in.

Some armies will have tools to deal with them, but I am concerned with those outside that relatively small bubble. It's just not a good dynamic for the game as a whole.

If you're going to complain that something is going to massively disrupt the competitive meta and they're super beyond the pale OP then it's kind of your perogative to prove that the major elements of that competitive meta DONT have the tools to deal with the new thing.

From where I'm standing, I see a list that has strong combos against two major competitive combos (orks and imp soup) and "meh" to "bad" performance against three others (nurgle focused chaos, tau and imperial soup).

Every competitively min-maxed list has elements that make it problematic against a large number of casually built armies that don't have the tools that other competitive lists have. Otherwise, it would not be a competitive list.

Unless you're a really huge fan of the stagnancy of the current "screen+knight" competitive meta, the addition of a codex faction with very strong answers to that should not draw calls for a boycott.

That logic falls flat on it's face when things like 7th ed Eldar/Tau, 4th ed CSM, and 5th ed gray knights occur. If they are wrecking face at a tournament what do you think is happening in friendly games? I had friends stop playing those armies as they could not get a game. People got TIRED of the edition and game as a whole because of those armies.

So don't sit there and crap on tourney players, they are some of the most passionate and involved players we have, if something like this is coming down the pike it's been proven as of late GW is listening.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:
but GSC won't be as strong as people are fearing.

I find it highly unlikely that any faction that gets access to both Guard's unit library and an upgraded Vect stratagem will somehow not end up being tier1, even before considering the pushed GSC character pool and exceptional melee elements.

So is it the fear of Tier 1 army play, or is it the fear of the Codex being broken that you're arguing for? Because Daedae Dee is calling for a boycott because they're broken, and fears what that will do.

Being a strong contender to fight Aeldari soup or Imperial Soup is a good thing. That is nothing to fear.

Ehm isn't this more a kick to the chaos soup that spams charachters?
Imperial soup still has Castellans.

I can think of one chaos player locally that uses soup, and he's pretty nasty with his list. Haven't really seen much otherwise, but that just be my area. The rest is Imperial and Aeldari soup, with a smattering of pure lists here and there.

It is a shot to the nads for them, but I don't think it's going to push them into Oblivion.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Try doing the math. I know this doesn't jibe with your desire to abandon all logic in favor of complete emotional breakdown, but try actually doing the math. I'm utterly unconcerned about this power, but I have lots of ways to shut down psychic powers.

I might have my maths wrong.

But assuming the Patriarch has +3 LD (a few CP but easy enough to do - relic from Deliverence Broodsurge on Icon, Broodcoven stratagem into Magus or Primus with BRB inspiring leadership warlord trait+Clamvus).

Versus LD9 - you have a 49.85% chance to do 8 wounds. 24.85% chance to 16 wounds. A 10.4% chance to 24 wounds.
Versus LD8 - You have a 75.45% chance to 10 wounds. You have a 45.43% chance to 28 wounds.

You can't double-use stratagems (flamer acolytes got to flame) but you could also use Lying in Wait to put a Locus into 3" of a Knight or whatever for an additional -1 LD. There is also the Horror if you want to add soup. Not sure if Tyranids have any other LD reducing effects.

This might seem like quite a bit of investment/opportunity cost - but a 45% chance to 1-shot a Castelan and a huge chance to do a lot of wounds? Seems good. Plenty of targets don't have LD9 base either.
Given the overwhelming majority of damaging psychic powers do a 3 mortal wounds at most this seems like a mistake.

Both the battle reports I have seen for the "NEW" GSC have had them getting nearly wiped off the board. Yes they have a solid alpha strike but they are so fragile they all die to a stiff breeze. Yes they have some shenanigans in deployment but competitive players know generally where the best places to go are and if you don't go their by definition you are not playing optimally with your GSC.

GSC will shake up the meta a bit but I doubt it will cause a revolution.

Once a player knows the most dangerous tricks

3" DS with flamers
Mental onslaught bomb
Stacked buffs on Abberants
DS assault bomb

You can prepare for them and counter play. It will cause people to think a bit more, which is a good thing.

Also to note Demo charges are "grenades" so only one can be thrown per unit per turn unless you use a strat.

On the subject of strats and CP

We have close to the same ability to get CP as guard.

Our cheapest 2 HQ's (We can only have one of each per detachment) come to 126pts and our cheapest troop (effectively guardsmen) are bare bones 40pts per unit so another 120pts for 3 comes in at 246pts for our cheapest battalion. Guard have the loyal 32 for 180pts. Thats a 66pts difference.

GSC are very CP hungry and can easily eat up 6CP in a turn without blinking (from what I have seen and likely even more) and after they use up all the CP they are just slightly stabbier guardamen.

GSC have tons of characters that give buffs but if they use them all they won't have points for any big threatening stuff.

GSC have a devoted character for CP recovery.... he costs 60ish pts and allows them to regain when they or opp uses a strat on a 6+ or a 5+ if they have the right other character(one for them one for opp) which is 2 more characters we need to have....seeing a problem here.

I'm not saying once things shake down that GSC will not be one of the more powerful codex's but what I am saying is that nearly any codex in the hands of a concomitant player will be competitive with GSC.

It's probably dependant of how well they themselves can deal with knights. If they have an acceptable winrate they will show up and gatekeep Chaos out.
Csm regular are anyways out since the cultist nerf and the alpha legion bending over.
Atm Chaos is all about that sweet dp / ahriman / DG charachter spamming.

I personally dislike it but it's atm one of the few ways that work for Chaos.

Okay - you know GW has really lost it's mind when Daedalus81 is saying he is going to boycott an army for how strong it is LOL.

It's whatever - they've made the game into something more like magic where you have to get the newest release to compete- except at least at the end of the day - your models are always worth something. Where as in magic your old cards are worth crap in about 1 years time.


It kinda makes me excited about how potentially OP my space marine army will become when marine codex 2.0 comes out and space marines are just deathwatch +1. Except - I think the marine haters would be out in force when that happens. Basically no one cares about GSC (because it's concept is super lame) the few that do will have a super power army for pub smashing.

In tournaments? Well at least there are other super powerful armies like gaurd and ynnari. So you can choose between them.

Is there actual evidence of codex 2.0 for anyone in 2019? I haven't seen it.

 Marmatag wrote:
Is there actual evidence of codex 2.0 for anyone in 2019? I haven't seen it.

Well, I do suspect a refinement of the current rules (similar to Age of Sigmar 2.0) coming this summer. While they have Sisters slated for the launch, it's not unrealistic for them to update the Marine codex not long after now that all major factions have had their books updated.

Darsath wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Is there actual evidence of codex 2.0 for anyone in 2019? I haven't seen it.

Well, I do suspect a refinement of the current rules (similar to Age of Sigmar 2.0) coming this summer. While they have Sisters slated for the launch, it's not unrealistic for them to update the Marine codex not long after now that all major factions have had their books updated.

I get it - i'm just saying, i haven't seen any actual evidence that this is the plan.

8th edition hasn't even hit the 2 year mark.

Mental Onslaught is a pretty good example of them not testing their own rules, or being inept, but most likely the former since nobody wants to fully staff a proper QA department.

Chalk it up to fairly typical codex creep? Or as I like to refer to it, the legal "bait and switch" operation?

Buy all your GSC models now and get your games in quickly because you know the rules are going to change.

The next FAQ will nerf rules for the models you bought, and boost some for the ones you didn't. The next CA will make some of the models you bought more expensive, and the ones you didn't buy will be cheaper.

Can we go back to bitching about Imperial and Eldar soup now?