Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As a minor side note, we get to test one of this forum's biggest bold claims with the GSC codex. That claim being "are infantry squads actually super OP just because of their defensive bodies"?

If rumors are true, GSC will get infantry squads with no regimental doctrine and no orders as a troop choice. (several sources say BBs will be unable to receive orders from any source, so presumably BB company commanders are available but would just sit around).

Will we still see infantry squads taken in competitive GSC lists? Or is it Orders and the Catachan/Cadian doctrines that put them over the edge into tournament meta-makers?

I'm curious to see. I'm also curious to see whether we get GSC Basilisks (Are basilisks actually tournament pieces without Catachan and Harker) or GSC Leman Russes (is it the Russ or the Catachan doctrine that is competitive).

All are available, and all can be taken while avoiding the CP nerf (by putting your IS in your GSC detachment and by putting Basilisks/LR Commanders in supreme commands and Spearheads). Will they be? Or will they be passed up?

Hey, I'm taking a trio of GSC Manticores Mmmmm. Alpha Strike lols!

the_scotsman wrote:
As a minor side note, we get to test one of this forum's biggest bold claims with the GSC codex. That claim being "are infantry squads actually super OP just because of their defensive bodies"?

If rumors are true, GSC will get infantry squads with no regimental doctrine and no orders as a troop choice. (several sources say BBs will be unable to receive orders from any source, so presumably BB company commanders are available but would just sit around).

Will we still see infantry squads taken in competitive GSC lists? Or is it Orders and the Catachan/Cadian doctrines that put them over the edge into tournament meta-makers?

I'm curious to see. I'm also curious to see whether we get GSC Basilisks (Are basilisks actually tournament pieces without Catachan and Harker) or GSC Leman Russes (is it the Russ or the Catachan doctrine that is competitive).

All are available, and all can be taken while avoiding the CP nerf (by putting your IS in your GSC detachment and by putting Basilisks/LR Commanders in supreme commands and Spearheads). Will they be? Or will they be passed up?

Wyverns/Manticores and Bassies will likely make the cut, as they are something missing from the GSC roster. Indirect fire or heavier suppressing fire is something they could use to cover the first turn and subsequent turns to support the onslaught of Acolytes.

 Carnikang wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
As a minor side note, we get to test one of this forum's biggest bold claims with the GSC codex. That claim being "are infantry squads actually super OP just because of their defensive bodies"?

If rumors are true, GSC will get infantry squads with no regimental doctrine and no orders as a troop choice. (several sources say BBs will be unable to receive orders from any source, so presumably BB company commanders are available but would just sit around).

Will we still see infantry squads taken in competitive GSC lists? Or is it Orders and the Catachan/Cadian doctrines that put them over the edge into tournament meta-makers?

I'm curious to see. I'm also curious to see whether we get GSC Basilisks (Are basilisks actually tournament pieces without Catachan and Harker) or GSC Leman Russes (is it the Russ or the Catachan doctrine that is competitive).

All are available, and all can be taken while avoiding the CP nerf (by putting your IS in your GSC detachment and by putting Basilisks/LR Commanders in supreme commands and Spearheads). Will they be? Or will they be passed up?

Wyverns/Manticores and Bassies will likely make the cut, as they are something missing from the GSC roster. Indirect fire or heavier suppressing fire is something they could use to cover the first turn and subsequent turns to support the onslaught of Acolytes.

I can absolutely see wyverns. I think a lot of competitive armies focusing on GSC are going to be jonesing for a turn 1 chaff clearing tool and maybe we'll see wyverns maybe we'll see something nids like stealers+swarmy. I am a bit more skeptical on bassies/manticores just because I think the turn 2 charge with aberrants or sawcolytes is going to be such a powerful anti armor tool that really all you need for success is the ability to shift aside 60ish GEQ bodies to ensrue they don't get screened.

Tyel wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
It was the more competent groups I follow that recognised the codex as strong, but on here I just heard a lot of whining about how weak the new Ork codex was. I notice that it's quite a few Ork posters in this thread too making quite a few very bold declarations once again. Lol.

[Citation needed]

I guess is bad because its prolonging a fight - but citation, I was there. Dakka was incredibly negative about the Ork codex. Any post to the tune of "this unit looks good" got a hostile response, typically followed by three more lamenting that the Stompa still sucks.

Englishman himself literally is the [citation] on that one lol. Hell in the next line complains that Orks are just a gatekeeper army and manufactures quotes lol

Tyel wrote:

Still, back on GSC, not really convinced the Nexos is problematic. Its 50 points. Sure if there is a warlord trait/artifact you value at more than 50 points (since this is how most armies get this ability) then its a good exchange but I am not convinced there is - or at least not for GSC/Tyranids. (Okay you are getting a guy as well, but he has an autopistol, he isn't doing much aside from providing the ability). A lot of codexes have a CP farm ability and then a list of clearly inferior options (Tau, DE). Since CP farming is near mandatory he is going to be played - but I don't think he's dramatically too low.

I guess there is a significant commitment to be made to unlock his bonuses - however 50 pts for CP farm like that which doesn't even use a warlord trait or relic? its nice man

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
the_scotsman is quite right.

There's more to a model's worth than it's durability. What role does it perform? What sort of firepower is it packing? What sort of damage can it feasibly do in HTH? How does it interact with the rest of the army? How common are they in the FoC? What alternatives are there? Do they buff other units? Are they recipients of buffs?

The whole reason they separated out wargear costs the way they did was to allow for easier tinkering. If the actual model is too good, up it's points, but leave the wargear be, and vice versa, including when something is actually a bit bobbins and not really performing the role they intended for it. Giving the weapon a separate cost, even if it's zero gives them wider options.

Take Bolter Drill. My word Marines needed that. It helps them. But it doesn't make the humble Bolter so much better it needs a points boost. Yet in the future, they may also grant Bolters -1 AP - which could entail upping their cost to 1pt to reflect it's a significant boost to the damage output of the wider army.

You're making some tenuous assertions not backed by data.

One dynamic we can observe is the effect of hull points for vehicles on their base cost - e.g. Predator / Rhino / Razorback.

This is not broadly apparent in infantry models.

Tacs get 1 per 5 special weapons - 13 points.
Devastators get 4 per 5 special - 13 points.
Assault marines? 13 points. (+3 with jump packs, which is a whole different world -- fly, double the move, and deepstrike --than a 1" difference between a Kabalite and other 6" move models)
-- All different FOC, roles, weapon options, etc --

Breacher Team - 7 points.
Strike Team - 7 points.
Warp Talons? No bolter - forced into LC - 12 points. Ergo bolters are possibly worth 1 point to GW. Why? A Warp Talon is not wildly more effective than an assault marine with dual LC.

Is a Wych paying for 2 points for 1 extra attack and a worse save? I don't think so.

You do get exceptions to the rule. Tankbustaz for one. Why are they like this?

A rokkit is more valuable on a killa kan than it is a deffdread, but GW didn't treat it like a variable BS weapon as in the codex (see Scion Plasma). Why? Were they being nice or considering that the rokkit isn't inherently spammable like scion plasma is? So, why is a Tankbusta 5 points and not 7? Is it because they figured they wouldn't use their melee profile like boyz? That doesn't make sense, because they get full rerolls to hit on shooting - that's pretty useful, so why doesn't it have a point value assigned? Likely because they didn't want 3 profiles for the rokkit and TBs as they exist typically need help getting to a target. So, instead of discounting the weapon for them and keeping their base cost up they got a base cost reduction.

And at that moment points become more about the feel of the unit rather than a hard calculation.

CSM terminators are no different in stats or slot than loyalist terminators, but they're 5 points more. Is it because they can double tap? Is it because they have a wider selection of weapons? Did GW just make a mistake? How can you be certain you know that answer?
Aberrants and Nobz are not wildly different in weapon options - in fact Nobz have more options. Shouldn't they cost more if that's GW's logic? Are we sure it's the same?

Now if you want to handwavium and say Aberrants are fine for their cost (and maybe they are), because of the army they're in that's fine, but at some point you're going to need to deal with the fact that the buffs available to them are about twice as good for the about the same cost that Orks pay and that there is also the issue of soup (of which I am a proponent).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
As a minor side note, we get to test one of this forum's biggest bold claims with the GSC codex. That claim being "are infantry squads actually super OP just because of their defensive bodies"?

If rumors are true, GSC will get infantry squads with no regimental doctrine and no orders as a troop choice. (several sources say BBs will be unable to receive orders from any source, so presumably BB company commanders are available but would just sit around).

Will we still see infantry squads taken in competitive GSC lists? Or is it Orders and the Catachan/Cadian doctrines that put them over the edge into tournament meta-makers?

I'm curious to see. I'm also curious to see whether we get GSC Basilisks (Are basilisks actually tournament pieces without Catachan and Harker) or GSC Leman Russes (is it the Russ or the Catachan doctrine that is competitive).

All are available, and all can be taken while avoiding the CP nerf (by putting your IS in your GSC detachment and by putting Basilisks/LR Commanders in supreme commands and Spearheads). Will they be? Or will they be passed up?

Personally I think Loyal 32 do nothing for a list other than provide CP and not be terrible. The real meat is in the Catachans.

I find it incredibly interesting that Brood Brothers are 4 points. Is it because of the lack of CT or is it because they don't offer full CP?

 Carnikang wrote:
Wyverns/Manticores and Bassies will likely make the cut, as they are something missing from the GSC roster. Indirect fire or heavier suppressing fire is something they could use to cover the first turn and subsequent turns to support the onslaught of Acolytes.

Vultures also appear to be a popular choice, specifically for clearing a lane for the DS charge when it comes in on turn 2.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
As a minor side note, we get to test one of this forum's biggest bold claims with the GSC codex. That claim being "are infantry squads actually super OP just because of their defensive bodies"?

If rumors are true, GSC will get infantry squads with no regimental doctrine and no orders as a troop choice. (several sources say BBs will be unable to receive orders from any source, so presumably BB company commanders are available but would just sit around).

Will we still see infantry squads taken in competitive GSC lists? Or is it Orders and the Catachan/Cadian doctrines that put them over the edge into tournament meta-makers?

I'm curious to see. I'm also curious to see whether we get GSC Basilisks (Are basilisks actually tournament pieces without Catachan and Harker) or GSC Leman Russes (is it the Russ or the Catachan doctrine that is competitive).

All are available, and all can be taken while avoiding the CP nerf (by putting your IS in your GSC detachment and by putting Basilisks/LR Commanders in supreme commands and Spearheads). Will they be? Or will they be passed up?

Personally I think Loyal 32 do nothing for a list other than provide CP and not be terrible. The real meat is in the Catachans.

I find it incredibly interesting that Brood Brothers are 4 points. Is it because of the lack of CT or is it because they don't offer full CP?

Probably because they don't get Regiments, Orders, are half CP when in an Astra Militarum BB detachemnt, and have no access to Specialist Detachments....

They're literally just Unquestioning Loyalty and Screen Fodder for GSC.

 Carnikang wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Personally I think Loyal 32 do nothing for a list other than provide CP and not be terrible. The real meat is in the Catachans.

I find it incredibly interesting that Brood Brothers are 4 points. Is it because of the lack of CT or is it because they don't offer full CP?

Probably because they don't get Regiments, Orders, are half CP when in an Astra Militarum BB detachemnt, and have no access to Specialist Detachments....

They're literally just Unquestioning Loyalty and Screen Fodder for GSC.

Nope. They get Orders. They don't get Regimental traits or Regimental Orders.

They're 4 pts because they're meant to be an Infantry Squad analogue. Infantry Squads are 4ppm.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Personally I think Loyal 32 do nothing for a list other than provide CP and not be terrible. The real meat is in the Catachans.

I find it incredibly interesting that Brood Brothers are 4 points. Is it because of the lack of CT or is it because they don't offer full CP?

Probably because they don't get Regiments, Orders, are half CP when in an Astra Militarum BB detachemnt, and have no access to Specialist Detachments....

They're literally just Unquestioning Loyalty and Screen Fodder for GSC.

Spoiler:

Nope. They get Orders. They don't get Regimental traits or Regimental Orders.

They're 4 pts because they're meant to be an Infantry Squad analogue. Infantry Squads are 4ppm.

Are there any Regimental Orders? To be fair, I don't play AM, and all the interactions are lost on me for the most part. As far as I know, Orders are Regiment specific because you can't use them on something that doesn't have a regiment.

But hey, if they can, it is odd. Probably will get cleared up in the week 2 FaQ.

 Carnikang wrote:


Are there any Regimental Orders? To be fair, I don't play AM, and all the interactions are lost on me for the most part. As far as I know, Orders are Regiment specific because you can't use them on something that doesn't have a regiment.

But hey, if they can, it is odd. Probably will get cleared up in the week 2 FaQ.

Yea, for example Catachans reroll attacks with flamers and ignore cover.

 Carnikang wrote:
Are there any Regimental Orders? To be fair, I don't play AM, and all the interactions are lost on me for the most part. As far as I know, Orders are Regiment specific because you can't use them on something that doesn't have a regiment.

But hey, if they can, it is odd. Probably will get cleared up in the week 2 FaQ.

Yes there are.

I doubt this will change.

Neophytes are fired since they are 5ppm. Honestly, as a Chaos player, if I could take Guardsmen under the same conditions I'd take them even at 5ppm over Cultists, hell, I'd take them over Cultists even if they couldn't be targeted by Stratagems and Psychic powers.

Honestly, all but the most biased AM apologists agree that Guardsmen are undercosted.

Cue apologist rant.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
If it breaks the game GW will nerf it fairly quickly.

Like they have nerfed knights...oh wait they haven't.

You are assuming GW wants balance. They don't. They want opposite.

at what point were they able to nerf Knights?

tneva82 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Assuming your numbers are accurate, Daedalus, even with triple Battalions, you're probably out by the end of three.

So about same as orks. And as by then game is pretty much done with winner just mobbing up no big deal. Even optimal

Is that genuinely how all your matches go?

Did you forget that Chapter Approved was released not too long ago?

Knights missed the cut off date for Chapter Approved. Literally the entire team was unanimously in agreement that Knights need nerfs.


But I guess you missed that.

Oh please. They managed to fit Space Wolves in there, as little as they did. You can't defend them on this one.

 Carnikang wrote:

Are there any Regimental Orders? To be fair, I don't play AM, and all the interactions are lost on me for the most part. As far as I know, Orders are Regiment specific because you can't use them on something that doesn't have a regiment.

But hey, if they can, it is odd. Probably will get cleared up in the week 2 FaQ.

Every Regiment got an Order, Trait, Stratagem and Relic.

Orders are "Regiment specific" in the same way auras are "<Insert Thing Here> specific". You can't have someone with different keywords giving Orders to different.

Thanks to this wording though, GSC seemingly do Guard better than Guard do as they can give Orders to Ogryn/Bullgryn, Ratlings(units that have "Auxilia" as a keyword--one that CAN'T be replaced), and you don't need a Tempestor Prime to order Scions.

TwinPoleTheory wrote:Neophytes are fired since they are 5ppm. Honestly, as a Chaos player, if I could take Guardsmen under the same conditions I'd take them even at 5ppm over Cultists, hell, I'd take them over Cultists even if they couldn't be targeted by Stratagems and Psychic powers.

No, you wouldn't. You'd likely just keep complaining that Guardsmen are undercosted and fielding the same cookie-cutter nonsense while ignoring your army's strengths.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:
Are there any Regimental Orders? To be fair, I don't play AM, and all the interactions are lost on me for the most part. As far as I know, Orders are Regiment specific because you can't use them on something that doesn't have a regiment.

But hey, if they can, it is odd. Probably will get cleared up in the week 2 FaQ.

Yes there are.

I doubt this will change.

Neophytes are fired since they are 5ppm. Honestly, as a Chaos player, if I could take Guardsmen under the same conditions I'd take them even at 5ppm over Cultists, hell, I'd take them over Cultists even if they couldn't be targeted by Stratagems and Psychic powers.

Honestly, all but the most biased AM apologists agree that Guardsmen are undercosted.

Cue apologist rant.

Haha, nope, not from me. If BB infantry squads get orders, neophytes are a fluff choice only. Every competitive list that features any GEQ bodies at all will have BB infantry squads backed up by BB company commanders from a Supreme Command detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

Are there any Regimental Orders? To be fair, I don't play AM, and all the interactions are lost on me for the most part. As far as I know, Orders are Regiment specific because you can't use them on something that doesn't have a regiment.

But hey, if they can, it is odd. Probably will get cleared up in the week 2 FaQ.

Every Regiment got an Order, Trait, Stratagem and Relic.

Orders are "Regiment specific" in the same way auras are "<Insert Thing Here> specific". You can't have someone with different keywords giving Orders to different.

Thanks to this wording though, GSC seemingly do Guard better than Guard do as they can give Orders to Ogryn/Bullgryn, Ratlings(units that have "Auxilia" as a keyword--one that CAN'T be replaced), and you don't need a Tempestor Prime to order Scions.

TwinPoleTheory wrote:Neophytes are fired since they are 5ppm. Honestly, as a Chaos player, if I could take Guardsmen under the same conditions I'd take them even at 5ppm over Cultists, hell, I'd take them over Cultists even if they couldn't be targeted by Stratagems and Psychic powers.

No, you wouldn't. You'd likely just keep complaining that Guardsmen are undercosted and fielding the same cookie-cutter nonsense while ignoring your army's strengths.

Neophytes in a Goliath? Why no, this is my BB infantry squad in a taurox prime, silly.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:
Are there any Regimental Orders? To be fair, I don't play AM, and all the interactions are lost on me for the most part. As far as I know, Orders are Regiment specific because you can't use them on something that doesn't have a regiment.

But hey, if they can, it is odd. Probably will get cleared up in the week 2 FaQ.

Yes there are.

I doubt this will change.

Neophytes are fired since they are 5ppm. Honestly, as a Chaos player, if I could take Guardsmen under the same conditions I'd take them even at 5ppm over Cultists, hell, I'd take them over Cultists even if they couldn't be targeted by Stratagems and Psychic powers.

Honestly, all but the most biased AM apologists agree that Guardsmen are undercosted.

Cue apologist rant.

Can we please stop with this?

Your not convincing the people who disagree, and the people who already agree already agree. It's just a constant whine.

Please, stop.

Anyone know what a web pistol does now? Is it still garbage?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Anyone know what a web pistol does now? Is it still garbage?

S4 AP-1 and you choose to wound against Strength or Toughness. Still garbage, yes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Anyone know what a web pistol does now? Is it still garbage?

1pt, same special ability with S4, single shot at 12" but now it auto-hits.

A regular webber is also 1pt, D3 shots, 16" range autohits.

Both are quite good IMO! Best neophyte squad setup is 2 webbers 1 web pistol with autoguns.

 Kanluwen wrote:
No, you wouldn't. You'd likely just keep complaining that Guardsmen are undercosted and fielding the same cookie-cutter nonsense while ignoring your army's strengths.

It's true, I live in a bubble of repetitive banality. But you've played against my lists so often, you know what's it's like. Oh, wait...

I have a truckload of garishly painted Mordians just waiting for the day when Renegades cease to suck.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
No, you wouldn't. You'd likely just keep complaining that Guardsmen are undercosted and fielding the same cookie-cutter nonsense while ignoring your army's strengths.

It's true, I live in a bubble repetitive banality. But you've played against my lists so often, you know what's it's like. Oh, wait...

I have a truckload of garishly painted Mordians just waiting for the day when Renegades cease to suck.

why mordians though of all regiments?

Want a laugh? Compare Abberrants to Thunderwolf Cavalry.

Not Online!!! wrote:
why mordians though of all regiments?

They were cheap at a local game store when one of the guys in our league was dumping his Mordians to switch armies.

Since I'm cheap and lazy, they hit all the key breakpoints.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
why mordians though of all regiments?

They were cheap at a local game store when one of the guys in our league was dumping his Mordians to switch armies.

Since I'm cheap and lazy, they hit all the key breakpoints.

But mordians seem like a terrible choice, with all the heraldry

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Anyone know what a web pistol does now? Is it still garbage?

1pt, same special ability with S4, single shot at 12" but now it auto-hits.

A regular webber is also 1pt, D3 shots, 16" range autohits.

Both are quite good IMO! Best neophyte squad setup is 2 webbers 1 web pistol with autoguns.

Well, that makes Neos more interesting.

2.05 MEQ at 12" as compared to 2.0 for IS with FRFSRF. No real help from Cults - Rusted Claw will make them harder to shift. What are the heavy weapon options?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
What are the heavy weapon options?

Heavy Stubber, Mining Laser, Seismic Cannon on heavy, Flamer, Grenade Launcher, Webber on special, Autocannon, Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Mortar on heavy weapons team.

Largely similar to Guard, a bit more variety available to them, but lower LD since BB get +1 LD.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Anyone know what a web pistol does now? Is it still garbage?

1pt, same special ability with S4, single shot at 12" but now it auto-hits.

A regular webber is also 1pt, D3 shots, 16" range autohits.

Both are quite good IMO! Best neophyte squad setup is 2 webbers 1 web pistol with autoguns.

Well, that makes Neos more interesting.

2.05 MEQ at 12" as compared to 2.0 for IS with FRFSRF. No real help from Cults - Rusted Claw will make them harder to shift. What are the heavy weapon options?

If people are going to claim that every single cult list in the universe is going to be CTFAE with Vect or Twisted Helix for busted aberrants, I don't think it's fair to say those neophytes are going to get to be rusted claw. That's 2 detachments, 1 for your souped nid/guard detachments.

I get 1.60 for the neophyte squad, 2.0 for the guard squad. 5 hits from webbers * .5 wound *.333 save + 7 hits from autoguns * .333 wound * .333 save.

HW options for neophytes is 2x/squad, three options: Heavy Stubber, Mining Laser (heavy 1 24" S9 Ap-3 D3D) and Seismic Cannon (1-12" heavy 3 S6 AP-1 2D, 13"-24" Heavy 6 S3 Ap- 1D). Given their new CA points cost the best choice is probably stubbers or nothing, the other options are quite pricy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
What are the heavy weapon options?

Heavy Stubber, Mining Laser, Seismic Cannon on heavy, Flamer, Grenade Launcher, Webber on special, Autocannon, Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Mortar on heavy weapons team.

Largely similar to Guard, a bit more variety available to them, but lower LD since BB get +1 LD.

I am guessing they don't get the HWT now that BB infantry squad is its own unit, but maybe.

the_scotsman wrote:
I am guessing they don't get the HWT now that BB infantry squad is its own unit, but maybe.

Wouldn't surprise me given that the Neophyte box doesn't have HWT models.

the_scotsman wrote:

I am guessing they don't get the HWT now that BB infantry squad is its own unit, but maybe.

This is correct. Neophytes get Mining stuff, Broodbrothers get HWTs.

the_scotsman wrote:


If people are going to claim that every single cult list in the universe is going to be CTFAE with Vect or Twisted Helix for busted aberrants, I don't think it's fair to say those neophytes are going to get to be rusted claw. That's 2 detachments, 1 for your souped nid/guard detachments.

I get 1.60 for the neophyte squad, 2.0 for the guard squad. 5 hits from webbers * .5 wound *.333 save + 7 hits from autoguns * .333 wound * .333 save.

HW options for neophytes is 2x/squad, three options: Heavy Stubber, Mining Laser (heavy 1 24" S9 Ap-3 D3D) and Seismic Cannon (1-12" heavy 3 S6 AP-1 2D, 13"-24" Heavy 6 S3 Ap- 1D). Given their new CA points cost the best choice is probably stubbers or nothing, the other options are quite pricy.

Yea, I don't foresee that either. I'm just musing over the interesting stuff. Overall it's a really interesting and characterful book.

Are webbers AP1 or was Slayer wrong on that part?