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Reemule wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Reemule wrote:
So I wasn’t there and I heard about this 3rd or 4th hand…

But supposedly 2 guys there were playing on the clock, and as you know when you get both players below 10 minutes neither player can start another turn. Supposedly Necron player took an exceptionally long turn, gutted his opponents army, and ended with 8 or so minutes on his clock, when his opponent with just a few models left had 40+. The guy with 40+ sat there for 30 minutes till his clock was under 10, and then passed the turn, and as he had a few more CP, wins, as Necron player who has a massive advantage didn’t get another turn to finish up.

I really doubt this happened, as it would be against the code of conduct, and only an idiot necron player would sit there for 30 minutes, but it was something people seems to be talking about.

Oh it's happened at times, with players running out the clock. Best one I heard was in WMH, where a player saw they were playing what would be an unbeatable Trollkin list for them (and if they did engage, a miserable, drawn out game) so- what they did when their turn (and clock) started was walk off and go buy an ice cream then proceeded to eat it in front of their opponent as slowly as possible.

No idea if the guy got a judge over, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did (even though the player was breaking no rules).

It wouldn't work in Warmahordes. The clock is sudden death. He can sit their and buy ice cream and eat it, and the other guy can watch movies on his phone. The first guy to run out of time loses at that moment. The Troll player wouldn't have cared.

I'm aware. Troll player was denied a game they played money for though (I'll have to ask my friend for more details as he told me this) and his opponent knew they'd have a gak game so gave them a proverbial middle finger, seems annoying enough behaviour to call a judge over for, despite knowing they'll auto win the game.

If you make it to the top tables any mistakes should be automatically be construed against you. Ignorance is not a defense.

I remember reading a reddit thread when this happened and a player knew this guy and they had met in basically a mirror match, however the redditer had his Castellan in a lance and apparently they'd discussed how that Castellan became a lot more powerful since it could effectively outrange the SHAD Castellan with all but one weapon. The story there being he absoluttely would've known about the rule (which he should've anyways since it's his centerpiece model).

Obviously take that story with a grain of salt but from what I gather, that guy had a bit of a reputation (according to several redditers) going into the event. I don't want to besmirch the man and can't point to the veracity of those claims. I can say that the behaviour shown at the time of this particular incident left a lot to be desired.

It's a shame that one of the storylines emerging from this years LVO seems to be players with poor sportmanship doing really well

PiñaColada wrote:
I remember reading a reddit thread when this happened and a player knew this guy and they had met in basically a mirror match, however the redditer had his Castellan in a lance and apparently they'd discussed how that Castellan became a lot more powerful since it could effectively outrange the SHAD Castellan with all but one weapon. The story there being he absoluttely would've known about the rule (which he should've anyways since it's his centerpiece model).

Obviously take that story with a grain of salt but from what I gather, that guy had a bit of a reputation (according to several redditers) going into the event. I don't want to besmirch the man and can't point to the veracity of those claims. I can say that the behaviour shown at the time of this particular incident left a lot to be desired.

It's a shame that one of the storylines emerging from this years LVO seems to be players with poor sportmanship doing really well

I've always been a fan of sports scores. Small tournaments it sucks if you're not part of the clique, but with such a large tournament it would be hard to game it.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So,

I found a reddit thread the pretty clearly laid out the events, and the people involved.

Player in question Had a Castellan, which I think we can all agree was the "central unit" of his whole game plan. No one brings a Titanic unit and uses it as chaff. He needs to know the rules of his core strategy mechanic.

That being the case, he began the game and denied his opponent a "rewind" on a rules error, when his opponent asked for one. Then, when his error came into play, he asked for a rewind after his opponent called him on it. He was denied a rewind, in turn. His opponent actually stated that the player in question had made this "mistake" in all his previous games, and had received warnings previously that day regarding this. Then the player in question begins shouting and throwing a temper tantrum, that not only makes it onto the game microphone, but also on one of the neighboring game's recordings as well. After shouting at the TO for about 5 minutes, he is allowed to keep his mistake, AND given back his CP that he spent on the "mistake".

To me this is pretty damning. Having one mistake, fine. accept it, learn from it, move on. Do not make a scene, throw a temper tantrum, and act like a jackbass all after receiving multiple warnings for the exact thing you are trying to do again.

Other people who have played this player state he is a jerk and a clock bully, who has used this "mistake" in tournament settings before.

Just my opinion, but this wasn't a mistake. This was one player trying and succeeding to get away with rules bloat, and having a hissy fit when called on it. Case and point - reports are TO's removed the videos of his game, and started banning people on the chat mentioning the event, or the player's name.

So usual "sweep it under the carpet" instead of address the issue and potentially ban this person from future events?

Sounds like business as usual. The old "He had a lapse in judgment" crap and "Let's not have any witchhunts" while allowing cheaters to essentially get away scot free by stopping discussion of it.

This is IMHO why competitive 40k can't be taken seriously. Literally, every single major tournament (in the US at least) since 8th edition has had some sort of drama on the top tables: Cheating, slow play, "misremembering" a rule, etc. And every time nothing is really done about it and in fact they seem to go out of their way to protect the guilty party from repercussions resulting from their behavior.

So, just to be clear:

I am not referring to Alex Harrison, the outed cheater of last year, who was banned from London GTs for life for repeated violations of "player misconduct"

I think it's hilarious - people are everywhere complaining about the lists, the TERRAIN, and the TOs. Meanwhile you have one well known banned cheater in the top 3, and possibly other cheaters in the top 8.

If ITC wants to be taken seriously, and if wargaming as a whole wants to be taken seriously, it needs to have harsh penalties for "multiple oopsies" players like Harrison. If this other person is found to have cheated, they need to have a public demonstration that this crap isn't tolerated.

Why spend your money and hard earned time off to go out and loose to multiple cheaters and "low-scorers" (form of cheating in some tournaments)? I mean, if Harrison had one this, which he was close to doing, the whole event would have been a complete joke.

It's obvious this game has a cheating problem with more than just moving models an extra inch. You have calculated cheaters in top 8.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/8l706o/london_gt_just_banned_alex_harrison_for_life/

Filing away little nuggets for my ongoing ‘Chump to Champ’ self-improvement project

Here is more conjecture, but apparently more than 2 were suspect.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/apbs90/brandon_grant_wins_lvo_2019/

In other tourney scenes, it seems if there is question on your behavior, and people question your win, or you were found wrong to have done something, you DQ yourself. Sort of a fall on your sword. Why doesn't that happen in 40K?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here is more conjecture, but apparently more than 2 were suspect.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/apbs90/brandon_grant_wins_lvo_2019/

Could you give specifics? I didn't read completely so I missed but apart from the admech thing other mentions I noticed seemed to be players of dubious trust from PREVIOUS cases like London GT hammerhead pushing.

(incidentally got good laugh at the mention of daemon players 6k points or so worth of summoning pool. Well to be fair that's pretty much point of summoning to give you ability to custom tailor your summoning against opponent so you pretty much need to have tons of options. Horrible to transport probably 3x points just for reserves...well maybe that 6k was exaggeration)

tneva82 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here is more conjecture, but apparently more than 2 were suspect.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/apbs90/brandon_grant_wins_lvo_2019/

Could you give specifics? I didn't read completely so I missed but apart from the admech thing other mentions I noticed seemed to be players of dubious trust from PREVIOUS cases like London GT hammerhead pushing.

(incidentally got good laugh at the mention of daemon players 6k points or so worth of summoning pool. Well to be fair that's pretty much point of summoning to give you ability to custom tailor your summoning against opponent so you pretty much need to have tons of options. Horrible to transport probably 3x points just for reserves...well maybe that 6k was exaggeration)

Didn't check that link out thouroghly but there has been a lot of cleaning up in the reddit threads over the last few days. Things escalate pretty quickly when discussing suspected cheaters.

Also, I'm pretty sure the 6k isn't an overstatement, I think it was 6750 points. Fairly certain that was confirmed, there was a picture of his cart and everything.

Well more power to him if he did have that much models with him Impressive just to carry that much models! That's then what 8000+ pts...IF anybody has picture of that cart please share

But at least he's taking max out of summoning. If you don't have big toolbox of reinforcements to tailor to your opponent/current need the summoning kind of loses it's point entirely.

tneva82 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here is more conjecture, but apparently more than 2 were suspect.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/apbs90/brandon_grant_wins_lvo_2019/

Could you give specifics? I didn't read completely so I missed but apart from the admech thing other mentions I noticed seemed to be players of dubious trust from PREVIOUS cases like London GT hammerhead pushing.

(incidentally got good laugh at the mention of daemon players 6k points or so worth of summoning pool. Well to be fair that's pretty much point of summoning to give you ability to custom tailor your summoning against opponent so you pretty much need to have tons of options. Horrible to transport probably 3x points just for reserves...well maybe that 6k was exaggeration)

I'm sorry, but this thread is 2 pages long. We have discussed multiple times what the first guy did. The second guy is such a well known cheater he is banned for life from attending the London Tournament.

There are no daemon players in my meta but I was under the impression that you had to list all of your units and summoned units had to appear on the army list. Is this not the case? Are you really allowed to "free form" part of your army this way?

well, as much as people on here are uncertain how the Castellan/knight detachment rules exactly work, are we surprised there are mistakes?

The Household Raven trait allows Knights to advance and still shoot all weapons including heavy with no penalty. It does not get this ability if taken in a super heavy auxiliary like this player took.

This player in his movement phase must have advanced to get into range of an enemy unit. As it advance, it only gets to fire assault weapons at -1 to hit i.e. meltaguns.

The Order of Companions stratagem costs 3CP (which this knight can use) specifies at the START of the shooting phase to nominate a knight to reroll all 1s. Declaring it at the START is a key part of how this should be played as you should not be able to shoot other stuff first and then decide to play this strat when you please.

As the Knight advanced, it could only fire its assault weapons. So the stratagem technically speaking still works.

From the information that is here and on reddit etc, said player was told about this rule, wanted to reverse his decision to play the stratagem to get back his 3CP, and then I believe take back his advance move in the Movement phase, thereby enabling it to fire as normal. I suspect that it advanced but was probably not in range of anything. He may then decided to play the stratagem if he wanted.

That is the gist of it.

My take, yes the rule is easy enough to mix up if your new to the faction. It would be passable if it was someone inexperienced. This guy ended up in the top 8 so doesn't get an easy pass for his actions. Also his response to this was unacceptable at all levels. I don't believe anyone should have to tolerate such tantrums and its a shame that they would be allowed to continue to the top. Not a good look for the tournament or the game in general.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here is more conjecture, but apparently more than 2 were suspect.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/apbs90/brandon_grant_wins_lvo_2019/

Could you give specifics? I didn't read completely so I missed but apart from the admech thing other mentions I noticed seemed to be players of dubious trust from PREVIOUS cases like London GT hammerhead pushing.

(incidentally got good laugh at the mention of daemon players 6k points or so worth of summoning pool. Well to be fair that's pretty much point of summoning to give you ability to custom tailor your summoning against opponent so you pretty much need to have tons of options. Horrible to transport probably 3x points just for reserves...well maybe that 6k was exaggeration)

I'm sorry, but this thread is 2 pages long. We have discussed multiple times what the first guy did. The second guy is such a well known cheater he is banned for life from attending the London Tournament.

So you are refering to just the 3 guys mentioned in reddit thread that i mentioned? In which only 1 guy actually had done anything fishy and the 2 other mentioned were mentioned just due to their past history with no indication or proof they cheated here?

Good to know.
Btw what does this thread being 2 pages be relevant to that reddit thread being long as hell?

 Smirrors wrote:
The Household Raven trait allows Knights to advance and still shoot all weapons including heavy with no penalty. It does not get this ability if taken in a super heavy auxiliary like this player took.

This player in his movement phase must have advanced to get into range of an enemy unit. As it advance, it only gets to fire assault weapons at -1 to hit i.e. meltaguns.

The Order of Companions stratagem costs 3CP (which this knight can use) specifies at the START of the shooting phase to nominate a knight to reroll all 1s. Declaring it at the START is a key part of how this should be played as you should not be able to shoot other stuff first and then decide to play this strat when you please.

As the Knight advanced, it could only fire its assault weapons. So the stratagem technically speaking still works.

From the information that is here and on reddit etc, said player was told about this rule, wanted to reverse his decision to play the stratagem to get back his 3CP, and then I believe take back his advance move in the Movement phase, thereby enabling it to fire as normal. I suspect that it advanced but was probably not in range of anything. He may then decided to play the stratagem if he wanted.

That is the gist of it.

My take, yes the rule is easy enough to mix up if your new to the faction. It would be passable if it was someone inexperienced. This guy ended up in the top 8 so doesn't get an easy pass for his actions. Also his response to this was unacceptable at all levels. I don't believe anyone should have to tolerate such tantrums and its a shame that they would be allowed to continue to the top. Not a good look for the tournament or the game in general.

To be fair, he has only been playing for a little over a year and a half, and he did receive a yellow card for his reactions.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
There are no daemon players in my meta but I was under the impression that you had to list all of your units and summoned units had to appear on the army list. Is this not the case? Are you really allowed to "free form" part of your army this way?

You just reserve points. Whole point of summoning is the free forming. Otherwise they are just inferior daemons with no free rules you get from locustes etc that come by having existing character sitting at one point. Even with free forming it's generally considered weak making getting to 10th impressive feat.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:


To be fair, he has only been playing for a little over a year and a half, and he did receive a yellow card for his reactions.

Word is he has some infractions from some other tournaments so perhaps that makes it look worse. Also there have been player anecdotal evidence that he should have know this specific rule as it was brought up with him from a previous tournament.

From reddit:

"As someone who has played XXX in a tournament last year and faced his Aux Detachment Castellan vs my castellan and we literally talked about how he couldnt advance which meant my Castellan out threat ranged his - yes, he is definitely a cheater. That is not including any of the other shenanigans he tried to pull on me as well including claiming equipment was on models and when we( myself and the judge standing right there) looked at his list - it was infact NOT on the models. The man also likes to move his movment 6 models 8-9''. I've played Mini Games and Warhammer for 20 years - he has the award of mine of the worst opponent I have ever played, in any game."

It probably makes no difference but I think that his attitude deserves worse than just a yellow card. But assume that is going off the new code of conduct so it is what it is.

From my understanding, there is some very bad blood between the player on question and a group in KC. This came to a head in a tournament last year. This is where he got banned, not because of what happened at the tournament but because of the facebook argument that ensued afterwards (again he gets way too emotional with this stuff). I would bet that these guys are involved in the Reddit discussion. The stuff they accuse him of are not even remotely consistent with his play locally.

As I understand it he has run into this before and was confused due to some faq, and asked several highly respected players how it was supposed to be played and he was playing consistent to how he was told by them and how it had been played against him in matches. Like i said before, the right move would have been to ask the judges beforehand so there would be no question.

Like I said, intense - yes, over emotional - yes, inexperienced - yes, but intentionally shady player - no, that has not been my experience, or the experience of the local players here.

Edit: and yes, the cries of those that are out for blood, er bannings, seem to forget that there is a code of conduct and the judges followed that code. And I cannot think of a single competitive sport or event where competitors get banned from the event for the slightest rules infraction. There are generally levels of warnings and penalties.

Does the defense of his behavior as "not shady" account for the fact that he refused to let his opponent take back a mistake earlier in the game but then threw a fit over not being allowed to take back his mistake? That's a texbook example of a TFG player trying to bend the rules in their favor.

That faq and experienced players telling part sounds rather fishy though. What faq exactly are we talking that supposedly changes very clear rule in codex that specifically excludes sh aux det from getting traits?

If such a faq confused him surely he has no trouble specifying exact faq and quote from the answer in question?

I have to say that my biggest problem with this guy wasn't his misunderstanding/misuse of the rules, or even the tantrum.

It's the violation of the Golden Rule: Treat others as you wish to be treated.

He refused someone else a 'takeback/do-over', and then expected one himself, from the same guy, in the same game.

Either it's perfectly okay to refuse that to your opponent, in which case it should be perfectly okay for them to refuse it to you---or it's sort of a douche move, when you do it, and when they do it to you. What kind of entitled head-space can someone get into where a courtesy should be extended to them, from a person to whom they refused that courtesy? My mind boggles.

I don't know, I'd have to ask him. Just trying to recall some of the conversation we had.

As far as the take back he viewed it as an entirely different situation due to timing or something. I told him that that was a pretty rediculous view as it doesn't matter. As soon as you deny a take back in a game, you can't expect your opponent to allow you a take back regardless of the situation or circumstances.

I'm not justifying what he did or how he approached it. I'm just offering the perspective that he did not go into it with a "haha I'm getting away with something I shouldn't" attitude.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
The stuff they accuse him of are not even remotely consistent with his play locally.

As I understand it he has run into this before and was confused due to some faq, and asked several highly respected players how it was supposed to be played and he was playing consistent to how he was told by them and how it had been played against him in matches. Like i said before, the right move would have been to ask the judges beforehand so there would be no question.

Like I said, intense - yes, over emotional - yes, inexperienced - yes, but intentionally shady player - no, that has not been my experience, or the experience of the local players here.

The player I quoted stated he explained to him how the rule works (where true or not is another matter). His public tantrum is pretty consistent with what people are saying. As even you said, intense and emotional.

Its a very easy rule to explain. There is no need for a judge or highly respected player. Just point to the codex where it explicitly says auxiliaries don't get the trait.

I am sure even you can see why it does not add up. We aren't talking Ynnari soul burst shenanigans or something technical.








Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
I don't know, I'd have to ask him. Just trying to recall some of the conversation we had.

As far as the take back he viewed it as an entirely different situation due to timing or something. I told him that that was a pretty rediculous view as it doesn't matter. As soon as you deny a take back in a game, you can't expect your opponent to allow you a take back regardless of the situation or circumstances.

I'm not justifying what he did or how he approached it. I'm just offering the perspective that he did not go into it with a "haha I'm getting away with something I shouldn't" attitude.

Ask him if someone ever told him that he could not advance and shoot as the guy on reddit claimed. That should tell you everything. His explanation about being confused doesn't pass the BS test.

You also have to note that a cheater will never admit it. They make excuses hence why its a slippery slope when you accuse someone. If he admits anything, he's basically done for as far as 40K competitive goes.

He may very well have thought he could get away with it at the time. He may have made a mistake. You will never get the true answer.

I've had plenty of players "explain" rules to me and be dead wrong because they missed a FAQ or some other interaction or straight up were full of it. Again, I don't know exactly where he got messed up on the rule, just relaying what i can remember and my experiences with him over numerous tournaments, practice games, and other players interactions.

And yeah I've seen even the some of the best players get twisted up on simple stuff before.

Edit: If you play a cheater enough, it will eventually become apparent that they are a cheater. Even if not to you, then to other people that you know and trust that play them. That has not been the case here, and many of the claims of the Reddit thread are inconsistent with the experience we have had playing him over many more games than the posters there ever will. When I get the chance, I'll talk to him some more about it.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
I've had plenty of players "explain" rules to me and be dead wrong because they missed a FAQ or some other interaction or straight up were full of it. Again, I don't know exactly where he got messed up on the rule, just relaying what i can remember and my experiences with him over numerous tournaments, practice games, and other players interactions.

And yeah I've seen even the some of the best players get twisted up on simple stuff before.

Edit: If you play a cheater enough, it will eventually become apparent that they are a cheater. Even if not to you, then to other people that you know and trust that play them. That has not been the case here, and many of the claims of the Reddit thread are inconsistent with the experience we have had playing him over many more games than the posters there ever will. When I get the chance, I'll talk to him some more about it.

Well there's NOTHING in knight faq that would be even close to being confusing with this.

Karol wrote:

Well if he doesn't have solid proof accusing them publicly could technically even be cause for legal trouble wouldn't it? Especially in America. There's court charges for weirder things in there.

A kind of a sad, that you can't say what you think. Thank you for explaining this to me.

Why should you be able to "say what you think" to whoever you want even if it isn't true? That kind of stuff can damage people's reputations, hurt their livelihoods and careers, and cost them a lot of money.

America doesn't even have particularly stringent laws in this regard... for example, to sue for libel/slander in the U.S. the person doing the suing has to prove that what is being said is a lie, which is usually impossible unless there is direct evidence.

I've heard that in the U.K the person being sued has to outright prove that it's TRUE.

OK, as someone who was watching the stream at the time – this is how it went down.

It was the top of turn 2. The Admech/Knight player had a very very strong first turn and was in a very strong position, to the point where the T’au player had basically 0% chance of winning in normal circumstances.

In the movement phase, the Admech player advanced his Knight Raven Castellan (in an Auxiliary Super Heavy Detachment) for a grand total of an extra 2” movement. He didn’t need to advance to draw LoS on the remaining units the Castellan would target.

Shooting phase he uses the Raven Strat to allow him to re-roll 1’s on everything then attempts to shoot with the Knight. The T’au player steps in and says he can’t shoot due to advancing and ASHD don’t give you House traits.

15-20 mins later the guy is still arguing with everyone about it (being described as very angry, agitated and red faced by the casters), to the point where he is refunded the 3CP for the Raven Strat but, is -NOT- allowed to fire the Castellan that round.

Long and short of it, the way the player reacted and handled the situation was way more important than the actual rules mistake. He’d already won the game at this point, and arguing the way he did, with the people he did, in such a pubic manner was nothing short of completely unacceptable.

Also, I agree with Tneva and the others regarding faq mistakes etc. There is nothing, anywhere, that would imply that a Knight, outside of a Super Heavy Detachment, would gain the benefits of the chosen Knight House. Maybe he just mis-read the rule in his codex (if he actually had the codex with him/has it at all). But to say that other people potentially confused him with explaining faqs etc, is a pretty bad, and non-starter, excuse.

Maybe it was completely unintentional and he got caught out, maybe it wasn’t. But, we can be 99% sure that based on what has been said, and his reaction, he was playing it the same in all his previous games. It just wasn’t picked up.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here is more conjecture, but apparently more than 2 were suspect.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/apbs90/brandon_grant_wins_lvo_2019/

Could you give specifics? I didn't read completely so I missed but apart from the admech thing other mentions I noticed seemed to be players of dubious trust from PREVIOUS cases like London GT hammerhead pushing.

(incidentally got good laugh at the mention of daemon players 6k points or so worth of summoning pool. Well to be fair that's pretty much point of summoning to give you ability to custom tailor your summoning against opponent so you pretty much need to have tons of options. Horrible to transport probably 3x points just for reserves...well maybe that 6k was exaggeration)

I'm sorry, but this thread is 2 pages long. We have discussed multiple times what the first guy did. The second guy is such a well known cheater he is banned for life from attending the London Tournament.

So you are refering to just the 3 guys mentioned in reddit thread that i mentioned? In which only 1 guy actually had done anything fishy and the 2 other mentioned were mentioned just due to their past history with no indication or proof they cheated here?

Good to know.
Btw what does this thread being 2 pages be relevant to that reddit thread being long as hell?

Alex is going to carry that stigma for years, and the internet is just a great way to keep reminding people about it all, I guess.

But, in his defence in regards to his conduct at the LVO, I doubt that there has ever been someone so closely watched and scrutinised by the Judges, spectators and his players. The fact that he beat some of the USA’s top players cleanly and fairly over the course of the event, in said circumstances, is something that needs to be highlighted. Alex doesn’t need to cheat to win. He just himself over by what he did last year.