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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: This isnt "I heard" this is confirmed, at the most recent LVO. Both Alex Mercer and this other guy were both accused of cheating. They stated it was "Mistakes". Heres the thing - no yellow cards were ever issued. So either that system failed, or doesn't actually exist yet.
This isn't historical, this literally just happened. And we bring up the history of Alex because HE WAS BANNED for doing this MULTIPLE times. He set a precedent. So the mistake argument goes out the window.
The other guy was "warned" several times according to reports, and when he finally got caught the final time, threw a hissy fit and won. So again, the system failed.
There needs to be a precedent, when you are at a tournament, there are no mistakes. Oh well so swell, GTFO of the tournament with that gak. Go play at the FLG with that crap.
>He was caught misplaying a rules in the game
>judge comes over and rules he cant do that
>checks rule yup he cant
>game continues on
We don't know if it happened in previous games. There's no proof if it did or didn't happen because none of his opponents reported it. Once again the FLG guys don't own a time machine and can't go back and see what happened. Its on the player (just like the tau player did) to call over a judge. A judge cant rule on something that might have happened in a previous game. You guys are literally complaining that the LVO judges cant go back in time
That is a pretty inaccurate accounting of the events.
1. His behavior alone should have resulted in a red card.
2. His game was top 8
3. The ITC literally knew they screwed it up because they removed all videos of the event and banned people from posting about it.
4. Stop moving the goal posts. If there are multiple judges warnings THAT DAY, it's not out of the realm of understanding to make the 3rd or 5th or 8th offense a penalty.
At this point, you've shifted the goal posts so many times I am beginning to think you are a troll.
1. cards are at the discretion of the judge and he didn't think it warranted a card.... maybe you should volunteer next year?
2. ok? what round it happened in isn't relevant to anything I said
3. flg only streamed AOS at the event
4. I haven't moved the goalpost an inch but you seem to be getting a bit flustered
Edit: I also have like 3 posts in this thread....guess its a compliment that my posts have had such bearing to make it seem like ive been posting for pages and pages trolling. But because you think im "moving the goalpost" you are clearly having an issue comprehending my points so
1. FLG just implemented the code of conduct. People arguing they should take into account GTs from before it was implemented are being ridiculous
2. Going forward cards will be tracked and known to event orginizers. suspensions can be given out at future events for red cards (so litterally tracking bad behavior like people want)
3. The FLG staff does not own a time machine. If something isn't caught during a round there's really nothing they can do "hey guys guy on table 134 round 3 might have misplayed a rule on turn 3 that might or might not have changed the outcome of that game and thus the pairings so we are just going to go back and replay the tournament from round 3"
The smart thing to do with the code of conduct would actually to discriminate against the players who have a history. Now, if you pull them players aside (email) before the tournament starts and just flatly say "here's how it is, you know and we know there have been issues in the past in tournaments regarding your gameplay. That means that the judges will be instructed to card you on the first instance of any shady play, especially if it closely follows (is a repeat) of past infractions. You start this tournament on a clean slate, however you will be held to a higher standard of scrutiny. On that note, your opponents will not be aware of this, and as another layer of defence to yourself, you have the right to film your games in case you think your opponents are trying to get you sanctioned on purpose. If that is the case, the person will be carded themselves. At this point, you have a choice to make, you either accept these special conditions surrounding yourself, or I will refund your entry fee immediately. Those are your two options"
So the "smart" thing to do would be to discriminate against "known" cheaters
>how far back does this apply?
>what constitutes being a cheater?
>do accusations alone condone discrimination?
>What if 5 people say someone cheated 10 years ago and 5 say they didn't?
>Whats to stop someone from saying x person cheated at an RTT 5 years ago with 0 evidence? or a team of players accusing a player from another team?
It almost seems like the smart thing to do would be just starting fresh and have a new system implemented that keeps track of new infractions going forward
If a basketball player fails multiple drug tests in the Euro-league, you can bet he's gonna be peeing in a lot of cups his first season in the NBA, and he's not getting the benefit of the doubt when he says "I didn't know that was a controlled substance".
Imagine thinking that "yeah my bud totally got cheated by player x 4 years ago at an RTT" is the same thing as failing a verified drug test in a professional league. I noticed you also failed to answer a single question I raised above and my immediate assumption is because you have no answer. The fact is that there is no good way to retroactively apply rules as we have never had a huge worldwide standardized player conduct code like this before. If the players you are concerned about are caught they will be subjected to punishment now. It almost seems like your concerned that they wont cheat and thus can play and would rather ban people for possible cheating long before this system was ever implimented. Looks like we should tell kenny G from the long war he cant host the long wars double event and the LVO next year because years ago before this system he once brought an illegal list
- To keep it clean, the previous 12 months - I assume, yellow/red cards would be slate cleaned every year.
- What constitutes being a cheater is abusing rules for your favour, not making an honest mistake, but making those mistakes on a repeated basis that crucially only work to your advantage. if someone is sloppy with the rules, you expect it to work not in their favor at times also, so handicap themselves by accident, rather than trying to gain an advantage also, in my experience with such individuals we are discussing that does not happen.
- Previous 12 months only, and again, those 5 people would need some form of evidence - remember the TO's are only targeting known individuals, which they have admitted they know about (article by the judge a few pages back), they would likely have some form of hard evidence to back this up. There's no smoke without a fire, and if they went off word of mouth, it would be easy to paint a picture, especially if reports are coming from different people who don't know each other.
Again, sometimes a few people need to be rung out to dry for the greater good. I'm not really in the mindset of enabling a few people to be dicks, I'm more in the mindset of protecting the investment of those that are honest. In my proposal they have their chance to play nice, they aren't being banned, they just would be under more scrutiny for their 'mistakes'.
Finally, just because what happens in basketball is a different end of the spectrum for you doesn't mean it is not a good idea to follow that protocol.
The basketball analogy doesn't even really work (i didnt play basketball but played pro hockey) For example USA hockey has no real relation to to the KHL. If you lead the league in penalty minutes in the KHL then sign an NHL contract you don't all of a sudden get suspended in the NHL. Heck, I remember we had a bench-clearing brawl at a tournament in Canada when we were only like squirts. We had about 10 guys get a 3 game suspension. That only applied to USA hockey events and you could only serve the suspensions at USA hockey events. This meant we went to the state tournament 10 players down because the tournament we played in between the two wasn't USA hockey certified.
In the same way you want retroactive punishments for players that
1. didn't even happen at the same event
2. the other event isnt run by the same organization
3. there is no standard in this thread of how far back you would go/ the burden of proof needed/ how many times this happened/ what type of "cheating
The fact is its simply easier and fairer to start fresh with this new system. This system is meant to protect players into the future not go back threw 20 years of 40k and punish people for things that might or might not have even been "cheating"
Since you played pro hockey, you should be aware of the sanctions and scrutiny involving drug tests (cheating) as opposed to misdemeanors, especially for past offenders. Just to be clear, I am only interested in cheaters, a guy that's a dick but otherwise plays by the rules doesn't bother me, it's water off a ducks back, it's people that are gaming innocent honest players I have an issue with.
My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog
Asmodios wrote: 1. Digital roles are already allowed but the game will never be reduced to mandated digital rolls ffs GW sells dice as one of their products and is marketed as a dice game
Nobody gives a about dice. The dice are a means to an end, generating a random result, not the point of the game. As long as the digital dice are easy to use there's absolutely no reason not to use them.
you could also just change a counter on a digital trackpad when someone isnt looking just like moving a dice
If you have any sense at all in designing the software you have it log and timestamp every number change. So yeah, you can change it, but then a judge can look back and see when exactly that value was changed. And if you're streaming they can very easily tell if the number was changed legitimately as a result of in-game actions or if the player cheated.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodios wrote: The fact is that there is no good way to retroactively apply rules as we have never had a huge worldwide standardized player conduct code like this before.
You don't need a standardized code of conduct because the instance of cheating was still cheating back then even if it wasn't punished. Nobody is getting retroactively punished and labeled a cheater over something that was legal when they did it but has since been ruled illegal, they're confirmed cheaters who knew perfectly well they were cheating at the time. The only change is that we're going back and deciding no, we don't really want you to play this game anymore after all. Once a cheater, always a cheater, and I have zero problem with cheating s getting permanently banned from the game regardless of when their cheating occurred.
1. You have obviously never used a dice app against random people at the store..... heck there is a close friend i play with all the time that will not play a game if the dice app is used
2. Once again you are going to
A.design an app that counts all wounds for the game
B. Code it to be cheat proof
C. Provide Ipads at every table
im sure you will have a waiting list for your $700 event (also couldn't someone just claim that the other person had entered in the wrong wounds it wouldn't even guarantee to solve cheating even with its insane cost)
3. Once again what even constitutes a known cheater? what is the burden of proof to have someone from the past labeled as a cheater? Do we take a vote and count up the result? what is the punishment for past cheating today? is a list off 3 points 10 years ago a ban for life today? what about a misplayed rule 1 year ago? What if someone claims you cheated at an RTT 15 years ago... do they have to prove it or do we believe all #Survivors.
all trying to retroactively apply punishments does for an organizer is cause headaches.... instead we have a new system that seemed to work well for the largest warhammer event in history but of course thats not good enough for the keyboard warriors on dakka
Asmodios wrote: 1. Digital roles are already allowed but the game will never be reduced to mandated digital rolls ffs GW sells dice as one of their products and is marketed as a dice game
Nobody gives a about dice. The dice are a means to an end, generating a random result, not the point of the game. As long as the digital dice are easy to use there's absolutely no reason not to use them.
you could also just change a counter on a digital trackpad when someone isnt looking just like moving a dice
If you have any sense at all in designing the software you have it log and timestamp every number change. So yeah, you can change it, but then a judge can look back and see when exactly that value was changed. And if you're streaming they can very easily tell if the number was changed legitimately as a result of in-game actions or if the player cheated.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodios wrote: The fact is that there is no good way to retroactively apply rules as we have never had a huge worldwide standardized player conduct code like this before.
You don't need a standardized code of conduct because the instance of cheating was still cheating back then even if it wasn't punished. Nobody is getting retroactively punished and labeled a cheater over something that was legal when they did it but has since been ruled illegal, they're confirmed cheaters who knew perfectly well they were cheating at the time. The only change is that we're going back and deciding no, we don't really want you to play this game anymore after all. Once a cheater, always a cheater, and I have zero problem with cheating s getting permanently banned from the game regardless of when their cheating occurred.
1. You have obviously never used a dice app against random people at the store..... heck there is a close friend i play with all the time that will not play a game if the dice app is used
2. Once again you are going to
A.design an app that counts all wounds for the game
B. Code it to be cheat proof
C. Provide Ipads at every table
im sure you will have a waiting list for your $700 event (also couldn't someone just claim that the other person had entered in the wrong wounds it wouldn't even guarantee to solve cheating even with its insane cost)
3. Once again what even constitutes a known cheater? what is the burden of proof to have someone from the past labeled as a cheater? Do we take a vote and count up the result? what is the punishment for past cheating today? is a list off 3 points 10 years ago a ban for life today? what about a misplayed rule 1 year ago? What if someone claims you cheated at an RTT 15 years ago... do they have to prove it or do we believe all #Survivors.
all trying to retroactively apply punishments does for an organizer is cause headaches.... instead we have a new system that seemed to work well for the largest warhammer event in history but of course thats not good enough for the keyboard warriors on dakka
One definition to rule if someone is a cheater is someone that uses an illegal move/mechanic/stratagem/wargear etc to gain an advantage, has it ruled they are incorrect in a game, then goes to another table and tries it again. This happens, most people have seen it happen. Christ I use to have a guy do the same thing in multiple different games thinking I'd forget. I stopped playing them in the end.
My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: This isnt "I heard" this is confirmed, at the most recent LVO. Both Alex Mercer and this other guy were both accused of cheating. They stated it was "Mistakes". Heres the thing - no yellow cards were ever issued. So either that system failed, or doesn't actually exist yet.
This isn't historical, this literally just happened. And we bring up the history of Alex because HE WAS BANNED for doing this MULTIPLE times. He set a precedent. So the mistake argument goes out the window.
The other guy was "warned" several times according to reports, and when he finally got caught the final time, threw a hissy fit and won. So again, the system failed.
There needs to be a precedent, when you are at a tournament, there are no mistakes. Oh well so swell, GTFO of the tournament with that gak. Go play at the FLG with that crap.
>He was caught misplaying a rules in the game
>judge comes over and rules he cant do that
>checks rule yup he cant
>game continues on
We don't know if it happened in previous games. There's no proof if it did or didn't happen because none of his opponents reported it. Once again the FLG guys don't own a time machine and can't go back and see what happened. Its on the player (just like the tau player did) to call over a judge. A judge cant rule on something that might have happened in a previous game. You guys are literally complaining that the LVO judges cant go back in time
That is a pretty inaccurate accounting of the events.
1. His behavior alone should have resulted in a red card.
2. His game was top 8
3. The ITC literally knew they screwed it up because they removed all videos of the event and banned people from posting about it.
4. Stop moving the goal posts. If there are multiple judges warnings THAT DAY, it's not out of the realm of understanding to make the 3rd or 5th or 8th offense a penalty.
At this point, you've shifted the goal posts so many times I am beginning to think you are a troll.
1. cards are at the discretion of the judge and he didn't think it warranted a card.... maybe you should volunteer next year?
2. ok? what round it happened in isn't relevant to anything I said
3. flg only streamed AOS at the event
4. I haven't moved the goalpost an inch but you seem to be getting a bit flustered
Edit: I also have like 3 posts in this thread....guess its a compliment that my posts have had such bearing to make it seem like ive been posting for pages and pages trolling. But because you think im "moving the goalpost" you are clearly having an issue comprehending my points so
1. FLG just implemented the code of conduct. People arguing they should take into account GTs from before it was implemented are being ridiculous
2. Going forward cards will be tracked and known to event orginizers. suspensions can be given out at future events for red cards (so litterally tracking bad behavior like people want)
3. The FLG staff does not own a time machine. If something isn't caught during a round there's really nothing they can do "hey guys guy on table 134 round 3 might have misplayed a rule on turn 3 that might or might not have changed the outcome of that game and thus the pairings so we are just going to go back and replay the tournament from round 3"
The smart thing to do with the code of conduct would actually to discriminate against the players who have a history. Now, if you pull them players aside (email) before the tournament starts and just flatly say "here's how it is, you know and we know there have been issues in the past in tournaments regarding your gameplay. That means that the judges will be instructed to card you on the first instance of any shady play, especially if it closely follows (is a repeat) of past infractions. You start this tournament on a clean slate, however you will be held to a higher standard of scrutiny. On that note, your opponents will not be aware of this, and as another layer of defence to yourself, you have the right to film your games in case you think your opponents are trying to get you sanctioned on purpose. If that is the case, the person will be carded themselves. At this point, you have a choice to make, you either accept these special conditions surrounding yourself, or I will refund your entry fee immediately. Those are your two options"
So the "smart" thing to do would be to discriminate against "known" cheaters
>how far back does this apply?
>what constitutes being a cheater?
>do accusations alone condone discrimination?
>What if 5 people say someone cheated 10 years ago and 5 say they didn't?
>Whats to stop someone from saying x person cheated at an RTT 5 years ago with 0 evidence? or a team of players accusing a player from another team?
It almost seems like the smart thing to do would be just starting fresh and have a new system implemented that keeps track of new infractions going forward
If a basketball player fails multiple drug tests in the Euro-league, you can bet he's gonna be peeing in a lot of cups his first season in the NBA, and he's not getting the benefit of the doubt when he says "I didn't know that was a controlled substance".
Imagine thinking that "yeah my bud totally got cheated by player x 4 years ago at an RTT" is the same thing as failing a verified drug test in a professional league. I noticed you also failed to answer a single question I raised above and my immediate assumption is because you have no answer. The fact is that there is no good way to retroactively apply rules as we have never had a huge worldwide standardized player conduct code like this before. If the players you are concerned about are caught they will be subjected to punishment now. It almost seems like your concerned that they wont cheat and thus can play and would rather ban people for possible cheating long before this system was ever implimented. Looks like we should tell kenny G from the long war he cant host the long wars double event and the LVO next year because years ago before this system he once brought an illegal list
- To keep it clean, the previous 12 months - I assume, yellow/red cards would be slate cleaned every year.
- What constitutes being a cheater is abusing rules for your favour, not making an honest mistake, but making those mistakes on a repeated basis that crucially only work to your advantage. if someone is sloppy with the rules, you expect it to work not in their favor at times also, so handicap themselves by accident, rather than trying to gain an advantage also, in my experience with such individuals we are discussing that does not happen.
- Previous 12 months only, and again, those 5 people would need some form of evidence - remember the TO's are only targeting known individuals, which they have admitted they know about (article by the judge a few pages back), they would likely have some form of hard evidence to back this up. There's no smoke without a fire, and if they went off word of mouth, it would be easy to paint a picture, especially if reports are coming from different people who don't know each other.
Again, sometimes a few people need to be rung out to dry for the greater good. I'm not really in the mindset of enabling a few people to be dicks, I'm more in the mindset of protecting the investment of those that are honest. In my proposal they have their chance to play nice, they aren't being banned, they just would be under more scrutiny for their 'mistakes'.
Finally, just because what happens in basketball is a different end of the spectrum for you doesn't mean it is not a good idea to follow that protocol.
The basketball analogy doesn't even really work (i didnt play basketball but played pro hockey) For example USA hockey has no real relation to to the KHL. If you lead the league in penalty minutes in the KHL then sign an NHL contract you don't all of a sudden get suspended in the NHL. Heck, I remember we had a bench-clearing brawl at a tournament in Canada when we were only like squirts. We had about 10 guys get a 3 game suspension. That only applied to USA hockey events and you could only serve the suspensions at USA hockey events. This meant we went to the state tournament 10 players down because the tournament we played in between the two wasn't USA hockey certified.
In the same way you want retroactive punishments for players that
1. didn't even happen at the same event
2. the other event isnt run by the same organization
3. there is no standard in this thread of how far back you would go/ the burden of proof needed/ how many times this happened/ what type of "cheating
The fact is its simply easier and fairer to start fresh with this new system. This system is meant to protect players into the future not go back threw 20 years of 40k and punish people for things that might or might not have even been "cheating"
Since you played pro hockey, you should be aware of the sanctions and scrutiny involving drug tests (cheating) as opposed to misdemeanors, especially for past offenders. Just to be clear, I am only interested in cheaters, a guy that's a dick but otherwise plays by the rules doesn't bother me, it's water off a ducks back, it's people that are gaming innocent honest players I have an issue with.
honestly, the only time you were ever really tested were after or before championships and most likely it was randomly your top 3 players. Im sure if someone had been caught in the same league cheating before then yeah he would probably be randomly selected but what players are asking for is that a guy who someone said totally juiced back in college should be suspended in the middle of the Stanley cup playoffs even though there isn't anything in his system currently. like i keep brininging up what is the burden of proof... a failed certified drug test is a high atandard of proof for extra scrutiny... some dude saying this guy totally cheats at his local RTTs isnt exactly the same thing
Asmodios wrote: 1. Digital roles are already allowed but the game will never be reduced to mandated digital rolls ffs GW sells dice as one of their products and is marketed as a dice game
Nobody gives a about dice. The dice are a means to an end, generating a random result, not the point of the game. As long as the digital dice are easy to use there's absolutely no reason not to use them.
you could also just change a counter on a digital trackpad when someone isnt looking just like moving a dice
If you have any sense at all in designing the software you have it log and timestamp every number change. So yeah, you can change it, but then a judge can look back and see when exactly that value was changed. And if you're streaming they can very easily tell if the number was changed legitimately as a result of in-game actions or if the player cheated.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asmodios wrote: The fact is that there is no good way to retroactively apply rules as we have never had a huge worldwide standardized player conduct code like this before.
You don't need a standardized code of conduct because the instance of cheating was still cheating back then even if it wasn't punished. Nobody is getting retroactively punished and labeled a cheater over something that was legal when they did it but has since been ruled illegal, they're confirmed cheaters who knew perfectly well they were cheating at the time. The only change is that we're going back and deciding no, we don't really want you to play this game anymore after all. Once a cheater, always a cheater, and I have zero problem with cheating s getting permanently banned from the game regardless of when their cheating occurred.
1. You have obviously never used a dice app against random people at the store..... heck there is a close friend i play with all the time that will not play a game if the dice app is used
2. Once again you are going to
A.design an app that counts all wounds for the game
B. Code it to be cheat proof
C. Provide Ipads at every table
im sure you will have a waiting list for your $700 event (also couldn't someone just claim that the other person had entered in the wrong wounds it wouldn't even guarantee to solve cheating even with its insane cost)
3. Once again what even constitutes a known cheater? what is the burden of proof to have someone from the past labeled as a cheater? Do we take a vote and count up the result? what is the punishment for past cheating today? is a list off 3 points 10 years ago a ban for life today? what about a misplayed rule 1 year ago? What if someone claims you cheated at an RTT 15 years ago... do they have to prove it or do we believe all #Survivors.
all trying to retroactively apply punishments does for an organizer is cause headaches.... instead we have a new system that seemed to work well for the largest warhammer event in history but of course thats not good enough for the keyboard warriors on dakka
One definition to rule if someone is a cheater is someone that uses an illegal move/mechanic/stratagem/wargear etc to gain an advantage, has it ruled they are incorrect in a game, then goes to another table and tries it again. This happens, most people have seen it happen. Christ I use to have a guy do the same thing in multiple different games thinking I'd forget. I stopped playing them in the end.
Yeah so now theres a system to get a judge and get the guy carded...... Im not going to ban some random guy because you swear hes cheated you before at a local RTT.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/20 23:04:37
Asmodios wrote: 1. You have obviously never used a dice app against random people at the store..... heck there is a close friend i play with all the time that will not play a game if the dice app is used
Shrug. If people refuse to use a dice app in competitive play then they can just not participate in competitive play. They won't be missed, and nor will their irrational fear of technology.
2. Once again you are going to
A.design an app that counts all wounds for the game
B. Code it to be cheat proof
C. Provide Ipads at every table
A and B are trivially easy, C is a problem but I wasn't defending the cost. My only point is that if you have the hardware then it does in fact make cheating in that way impossible and you can't "accidentally" adjust a wound total.
(also couldn't someone just claim that the other person had entered in the wrong wounds it wouldn't even guarantee to solve cheating even with its insane cost)
No. Again, the app is logging and timestamping all changes made. A judge can look at the log and see exactly which player made the change and at what time. And if the game is being streamed they can look at the stream and get video proof of the cheating.
3. Once again what even constitutes a known cheater? what is the burden of proof to have someone from the past labeled as a cheater? Do we take a vote and count up the result? what is the punishment for past cheating today? is a list off 3 points 10 years ago a ban for life today? what about a misplayed rule 1 year ago? What if someone claims you cheated at an RTT 15 years ago... do they have to prove it or do we believe all #Survivors.
Obviously there would need to be some kind of proof of cheating (video of the player adjusting their dice, a confirmed use of an illegal list, etc), not merely a claim with no evidence that someone supposedly cheated at some event years ago. But, assuming that proof exists, I see no problem whatsoever with the punishment being applied. And if you don't want to get a lifetime (or at least temporary) ban for an illegal list then don't cheat with an illegal list.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Asmodios wrote: 1. You have obviously never used a dice app against random people at the store..... heck there is a close friend i play with all the time that will not play a game if the dice app is used
Shrug. If people refuse to use a dice app in competitive play then they can just not participate in competitive play. They won't be missed, and nor will their irrational fear of technology.
2. Once again you are going to
A.design an app that counts all wounds for the game
B. Code it to be cheat proof
C. Provide Ipads at every table
A and B are trivially easy, C is a problem but I wasn't defending the cost. My only point is that if you have the hardware then it does in fact make cheating in that way impossible and you can't "accidentally" adjust a wound total.
(also couldn't someone just claim that the other person had entered in the wrong wounds it wouldn't even guarantee to solve cheating even with its insane cost)
No. Again, the app is logging and timestamping all changes made. A judge can look at the log and see exactly which player made the change and at what time. And if the game is being streamed they can look at the stream and get video proof of the cheating.
3. Once again what even constitutes a known cheater? what is the burden of proof to have someone from the past labeled as a cheater? Do we take a vote and count up the result? what is the punishment for past cheating today? is a list off 3 points 10 years ago a ban for life today? what about a misplayed rule 1 year ago? What if someone claims you cheated at an RTT 15 years ago... do they have to prove it or do we believe all #Survivors.
Obviously there would need to be some kind of proof of cheating (video of the player adjusting their dice, a confirmed use of an illegal list, etc), not merely a claim with no evidence that someone supposedly cheated at some event years ago. But, assuming that proof exists, I see no problem whatsoever with the punishment being applied. And if you don't want to get a lifetime (or at least temporary) ban for an illegal list then don't cheat with an illegal list.
1. Im not against dice apps in competitive play..... Thinking dice will be eliminated is an absolute joke though gw literally sells dice you think they are going to ban them
2. I get what you're saying with the timestamp I'm saying it isn't even full proof
>guy does three wounds to my tank
>i put in 1
>hey your cheating
>no im not
if you're expecting someone to invest that much money into a system right now its got to be better then a slight improvement then just having a dice counter
3once again im all against cheating just not going back.... for example, an amazing dude that does tons for the community kenny G once brought an illegal list to a tournament. do we ban him for life now? i mean its a fact hes said that even though he didnt intend to cheat he technically cheated... should i go get my cross so we can nail him up? seems like it would be better to just start fresh with the new system rather then try to go back and punish people from the past
Eonfuzz wrote: It's almost like having a good app could speed up dice rolls while also logging all output so that it can't be cheated on.
Frankly, if you are worried about it being "reduced to mandated digital rolls ffs" you're a bit of a dinosaur. Any good app should hook into your *already* registered tourney list and roll attacks based on what is alive.
Bonus points if it can actually communicate to your opponents app and alert them of casualties.
That sounds boring and removes some of what makes table top games appealing to me. If I wanted to play a video game I'll fire up my PS4. There is something about rolling dice that is lost when it's just tapping an app on my phone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/20 23:25:12
Asmodios wrote: 1. Im not against dice apps in competitive play..... Thinking dice will be eliminated is an absolute joke though gw literally sells dice you think they are going to ban them
Who cares if GW sells them? They aren't running any events that matter, they don't get to decide if dice are banned and dice apps are mandatory.
2. I get what you're saying with the timestamp I'm saying it isn't even full proof
>guy does three wounds to my tank
>i put in 1
>hey your cheating
>no im not
> Judge reviews the timestamp and log, rewinds the stream to that point, and sees the wound roll was 3 wounds.
> Judge sees that you not only put in 1 wound, you also tried to defend it as being correct and established that it wasn't just a finger slip.
> Judge DQs you from the event, physically removes you from the property, and bans you for life.
> You never play a game of competitive 40k again, and even people at your local store probably know that you're a cheater and avoid you.
3once again im all against cheating just not going back.... for example, an amazing dude that does tons for the community kenny G once brought an illegal list to a tournament. do we ban him for life now? i mean its a fact hes said that even though he didnt intend to cheat he technically cheated... should i go get my cross so we can nail him up? seems like it would be better to just start fresh with the new system rather then try to go back and punish people from the past
First of all, I don't think anyone is arguing for lifetime bans because of a single instance of having an illegal list (at least without it being blatant cheating). Discussion of lifetime bans is about people who have an established pattern of cheating. Second, I don't give a about what he or anyone else has done for the community, the cheating still happened. You cheat, you get the appropriate punishment. No special treatment for people who "do a lot for the community".
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/20 23:33:12
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Asmodios wrote: 1. Im not against dice apps in competitive play..... Thinking dice will be eliminated is an absolute joke though gw literally sells dice you think they are going to ban them
Who cares if GW sells them? They aren't running any events that matter, they don't get to decide if dice are banned and dice apps are mandatory.
You're going to try to claim that the GW Grant Tournaments don't matter, just because they're not ITC?
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Dysartes wrote: You're going to try to claim that the GW Grant Tournaments don't matter, just because they're not ITC?
I'm claiming exactly that. GW runs events at a single location in the UK, events the vast majority of players have no realistic access to. As a percentage of the total competitive 40k scene they are effectively nonexistent.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Asmodios wrote: 1. Im not against dice apps in competitive play..... Thinking dice will be eliminated is an absolute joke though gw literally sells dice you think they are going to ban them
Who cares if GW sells them? They aren't running any events that matter, they don't get to decide if dice are banned and dice apps are mandatory.
2. I get what you're saying with the timestamp I'm saying it isn't even full proof
>guy does three wounds to my tank
>i put in 1
>hey your cheating
>no im not
> Judge reviews the timestamp and log, rewinds the stream to that point, and sees the wound roll was 3 wounds.
> Judge sees that you not only put in 1 wound, you also tried to defend it as being correct and established that it wasn't just a finger slip.
> Judge DQs you from the event, physically removes you from the property, and bans you for life.
> You never play a game of competitive 40k again, and even people at your local store probably know that you're a cheater and avoid you.
3once again im all against cheating just not going back.... for example, an amazing dude that does tons for the community kenny G once brought an illegal list to a tournament. do we ban him for life now? i mean its a fact hes said that even though he didnt intend to cheat he technically cheated... should i go get my cross so we can nail him up? seems like it would be better to just start fresh with the new system rather then try to go back and punish people from the past
First of all, I don't think anyone is arguing for lifetime bans because of a single instance of having an illegal list (at least without it being blatant cheating). Discussion of lifetime bans is about people who have an established pattern of cheating. Second, I don't give a about what he or anyone else has done for the community, the cheating still happened. You cheat, you get the appropriate punishment. No special treatment for people who "do a lot for the community".
1. I forgot FLG doesnt sell GW products 2. So now every game is also being streamed.... forget about the 700$ entry cost we are now getting into $10000 territory
3. nobody is talking about special treatment.... it was an example of how convoluted it would be to go back through every cheat/mistake that has happened to every player in the history of 40k. Everything seems to think you can snap your fingers and instantly have a rap sheet for every player ever. Guess what isnt impossible to do...... just keep track with the new system going forward
Asmodios wrote: 1. Im not against dice apps in competitive play..... Thinking dice will be eliminated is an absolute joke though gw literally sells dice you think they are going to ban them
Who cares if GW sells them? They aren't running any events that matter, they don't get to decide if dice are banned and dice apps are mandatory.
You're going to try to claim that the GW Grant Tournaments don't matter, just because they're not ITC?
not only that all these tournaments sell GW products. FFS ITC lets you run whatever format you want but now they are going to only let you count if you ban dice from a dice game
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/20 23:41:12
Dysartes wrote: You're going to try to claim that the GW Grant Tournaments don't matter, just because they're not ITC?
I'm claiming exactly that. GW runs events at a single location in the UK, events the vast majority of players have no realistic access to. As a percentage of the total competitive 40k scene they are effectively nonexistent.
Plenty of people from the UK travelled to the LVO - absolutely nothing stopping any of you Yanks coming over to the Grand Tournament (or possibly the Heats - I'll admit to not having looked at how they're running it this time).
And I would say that it is strange that you'd like to discount a tournament run by the people who create the game, just because it doesn't fit your narrative, but then I remembered who I'm talking to...
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Dysartes wrote: Plenty of people from the UK travelled to the LVO - absolutely nothing stopping any of you Yanks coming over to the Grand Tournament (or possibly the Heats - I'll admit to not having looked at how they're running it this time).
Airline ticket to Las Vegas: ~$150
Airline ticket to the UK: minimum $700, average $1000-1500.
Yeah, nothing at all stopping us...
And I would say that it is strange that you'd like to discount a tournament run by the people who create the game, just because it doesn't fit your narrative, but then I remembered who I'm talking to...
I discount it because it's an absurdly tiny percentage of competitive 40k, existing only in a single location that most players have no realistic access to. If GW started doing worldwide tournaments again then I'd consider their event rules relevant, but for some reason they remain stubbornly opposed to that idea.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/20 23:47:52
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
To be perfectly honest, the less GW is involved in US tournaments, the better. Already, GW at the Citadel likes to play model police.
Apparently, spending ludicrous amounts of money on their models is fine- but don't you DARE glue extra things that GW didn't make to them, or you can't even bring them through the door.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: To be perfectly honest, the less GW is involved in US tournaments, the better. Already, GW at the Citadel likes to play model police.
Apparently, spending ludicrous amounts of money on their models is fine- but don't you DARE glue extra things that GW didn't make to them, or you can't even bring them through the door.
Unless this has been rectified.
I live about 10 minutes from the place.... its a don't ask don't tell policy. It was stupid for them to ever say but as long as you don't walk through the door saying "LOOK AT MY SWEET THIRD PARTY BASES" you're fine
What does that have to do with anything? They sell GW products, but dice sales to competitive players can't be any meaningful percentage of their revenue. Dice are just too cheap and easily obtained at any random local store.
2. So now every game is also being streamed.... forget about the 700$ entry cost we are now getting into $10000 territory
Not every game, but cheating at the bottom tables is not as significant. Having the top few games on stream wouldn't be a substantial extra cost, especially since people are already streaming top games to promote their events/podcasts/etc.
3. nobody is talking about special treatment.... it was an example of how convoluted it would be to go back through every cheat/mistake that has happened to every player in the history of 40k. Everything seems to think you can snap your fingers and instantly have a rap sheet for every player ever. Guess what isnt impossible to do...... just keep track with the new system going forward
You absolutely are talking about special treatment. You're commenting on the cheater's contributions to the community as if that has anything to do with whether or not he should be punished, with the implication that someone who had used an illegal list and not done anything to help the community would be more deserving of punishment.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Asmodios wrote: I live about 10 minutes from the place.... its a don't ask don't tell policy. It was stupid for them to ever say but as long as you don't walk through the door saying "LOOK AT MY SWEET THIRD PARTY BASES" you're fine
If I have to hide my conversions to play there, I'd rather not play there.
I bought a full kit from Games Workshop. Not a partial kit, a full kit. I bought an additional product from someone else, and added it to the full product I purchased from GW. If that's not good enough, well- they can blow it out their bolter hole.
Because maybe it's a slippery slope fallacy, but that's one step away from saying I can't mold and make my own components from resin and add them to the models, or I'm not allowed to use non-GW paints, or the measuring tape and dice have to be from GW, etc.
And I know that's not the 'standard GW policy', but the Citadel's manager should have been shoved out the front door and directed to the unemployment office for that nonsense.
Asmodios wrote: I live about 10 minutes from the place.... its a don't ask don't tell policy. It was stupid for them to ever say but as long as you don't walk through the door saying "LOOK AT MY SWEET THIRD PARTY BASES" you're fine
If I have to hide my conversions to play there, I'd rather not play there.
I bought a full kit from Games Workshop. Not a partial kit, a full kit. I bought an additional product from someone else, and added it to the full product I purchased from GW. If that's not good enough, well- they can blow it out their bolter hole.
Because maybe it's a slippery slope fallacy, but that's one step away from saying I can't mold and make my own components from resin and add them to the models, or I'm not allowed to use non-GW paints, or the measuring tape and dice have to be from GW, etc.
And I know that's not the 'standard GW policy', but the Citadel's manager should have been shoved out the front door and directed to the unemployment office for that nonsense.
Whats funny to me is that WH Community shares people whom have done sweet conversions using GS and other products; but throw a fit if you bring them to the store... its the store owners, not GW I believe.
Dysartes wrote: Plenty of people from the UK travelled to the LVO - absolutely nothing stopping any of you Yanks coming over to the Grand Tournament (or possibly the Heats - I'll admit to not having looked at how they're running it this time).
Airline ticket to Las Vegas: ~$150
Airline ticket to the UK: minimum $700, average $1000-1500.
Yeah, nothing at all stopping us...
As noted, UK players managed to make it to the LVO - what's good enough for the goose is good enough for the gander...
And I would say that it is strange that you'd like to discount a tournament run by the people who create the game, just because it doesn't fit your narrative, but then I remembered who I'm talking to...
I discount it because it's an absurdly tiny percentage of competitive 40k, existing only in a single location that most players have no realistic access to. If GW started doing worldwide tournaments again then I'd consider their event rules relevant, but for some reason they remain stubbornly opposed to that idea.
Well, I doubt that any players from Europe would complain too much about making it to GWHQ if they wanted to attend the Grand Tournament (at the moment - I appreciate it may become more awkward down the line).
I'm not going to speculate as to why they have not yet taken any steps about running events in other countries - though, now they have the Citadel, I wonder if a US Grand Tournament might become a thing down the line.
And, hey, at least it is an event that is actually playing 40k, rather than a house-ruled variant.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Zid wrote: Whats funny to me is that WH Community shares people whom have done sweet conversions using GS and other products; but throw a fit if you bring them to the store... its the store owners, not GW I believe.
The one GW I will go to when I am nearby it? The owner of that store even said it was absurd as a policy, and for the most part the rule is "be mostly a GW model".
I mean, if the option for third party bits that make the model what you want it to be pushes you to buy a kit from GW, that's a win for everyone.
My local GW store owner refuses to allow modded units not made with his parts. Or with green goop. He says it's advertising competitors merchandise. I had one guy who made molds for base guardsmen, and had a bunch of painted green goop molded guard. They looked good, but not as sharp as a store bought. He wasn't allowed to play his army.
I really do believe that GW pushes their owners to be dicks in store concerning non-GW stuff. The worst are the accessories.
Their 25 dollar 6 pack of dice, their 20 dollar snips made of paper mache, their brushes that cost 4 times standard craft store brushes.....the worst is their fething CDs. Audio books on CD, maybe 4 hours of audio, cheap paper case, 30 bucks.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: My local GW store owner refuses to allow modded units not made with his parts. Or with green goop. He says it's advertising competitors merchandise. I had one guy who made molds for base guardsmen, and had a bunch of painted green goop molded guard. They looked good, but not as sharp as a store bought. He wasn't allowed to play his army.
Storm cast look dumb to me.
I never wanted them.
Then someone showed me Stormcast with Spartan helmets.
I bought Stormcast.
The fact that selling an entire product to me and then saying I'm not allowed to play it at their stores and events because I glued something else to the complete product I just paid for is why Games Workshop should be told to kick rocks and piss off in the US. Stay away from my tables, please.
The owners are in a tough spot, since it's my understanding that they are essentially competing with GW itself for sales plus third party game stores, websites and ebay. I've only been in an actually GW a handful of times since the closest one to me is NYC and the size of a large closet, but it has to be hard when your judged entirely on sales and all the above are a thing.
That said the one time I played in the New York store a few years ago, the owner was chill about a model or two being third party if it was something like inquisition
HoundsofDemos wrote: The owners are in a tough spot, since it's my understanding that they are essentially competing with GW itself for sales plus third party game stores, websites and ebay. I've only been in an actually GW a handful of times since the closest one to me is NYC and the size of a large closet, but it has to be hard when your judged entirely on sales and all the above are a thing.
GW stores do not have owners, they just have low-level employees who run a cash register and fill out paperwork. They might have performance reviews and eventually get fired for failing to meet impossible demands, but TBH it's just a generic retail job and they can go get another one to replace it. It's not like independent store owners, where their personal finances are at stake and a failed business could be catastrophic. And yet somehow the genuine store owners, with much more pressure to maximize sales, are the ones who tend to have the least restrictive rules on what models are acceptable...
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I think some of the above goes with most gaming stores sell a much larger variety of product than just 40k and AOS/Fantasy. My main local gaming store sells a staggering number of products, including pool tables, bar equipment, sports memorabilia, board games, chess sets, etc.......
I'm friends with the owner and he's pretty candid that he mostly sells GW products because it's the most well know TT minis system and then people end up dumping money on other things since they spend time at the store playing. He makes decent money on GW but it's a semi loss lead.
On the other hand, I remember (granted this was about 5 years ago) talking to the manager of the NYC store about how he essentially had numbers that were borderline impossible to meet without constantly pushing product on people and any time he hit those numbers they just added a few more to the goal. Yes that's retail in general but he expressed a frustration of wanting to run cool place for people to play but likely getting fired the minute he misses a sales goal.
the last few pages of this thread has given me a good laugh.
It's good to see the pinnacle of 40k "competitive" gaming can be as petty as TFG down at the local club.
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
Wayniac wrote: What many of us are saying is if someone is a known cheater with multiple dubious circumstances surrounding them, then they need to be suspended or something from events.
That isn't how a fair system should work. Innocent until proven guilty, it doesn't matter how "shady" they are. You don't start applying penalties unless you are ABSOLUTELY sure that they are cheating.
Peregrine wrote: Shrug. If people refuse to use a dice app in competitive play then they can just not participate in competitive play. They won't be missed, and nor will their irrational fear of technology.
I have a degree in computer science, and am most certainly not a technophobe... However, electronic dice apps will never be widely used in the way you are saying. Computers can only generate a chain of pseudorandom numbers based off of a seed and a calculation, and they are even easier to rig in your favor than real dice are. Pseudorandom is good enough for videogames, but not good enough for events like these.
There is a reason that any reputable gambling (like the lottery) uses real dice/balls whatever... with the possible exception of electronic gaming machines at casinos... but you know what you are signing up for when you play those.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/21 03:03:49
w1zard wrote: I have a degree in computer science, and am most certainly not a technophobe... However, electronic dice apps will never be widely used in the way you are saying. Computers can only generate a chain of pseudorandom numbers based off of a seed and a calculation, and they are even easier to rig in your favor than real dice are. Pseudorandom is good enough for videogames, but not good enough for events like these.
There is a reason that any reputable gambling (like the lottery) uses real dice/balls whatever... with the possible exception of electronic gaming machines at casinos... but you know what you are signing up for when you play those.
Sorry, but this is just plain wrong. Unless you're talking about extreme outlier cases like defending encryption systems against state-level attackers software RNG is more than adequate, especially when compared to low-quality gaming dice that are known to deviate significantly from a theoretical "fair" die. And no, it isn't possible to rig a software RNG without creating your own app that is visually identical to the official app and hoping to never get caught (since obviously using a fake dice app would be grounds for an immediate lifetime ban from ever 40k event).
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
about dice. The dice are a means to an end, generating a random result, not the point of the game. As long as the digital dice are easy to use there's absolutely no reason not to use them.
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