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Well one would also need to separate cheating, mistakes and different playing culture. Playing incorrectly by mistake isn't same as cheating and 40k rules don't even work as stand alone. Too much stuff where raw simply doesn't tell you how to play it so everybody has to make leap of faith saying "this is how we play" and hope like hell it's what opponents have also decided. End result is 2 groups playing same situation differently and neither incorrect as rules dont' even tell how to play it.

tneva82 wrote:
Well one would also need to separate cheating, mistakes and different playing culture. Playing incorrectly by mistake isn't same as cheating and 40k rules don't even work as stand alone. Too much stuff where raw simply doesn't tell you how to play it so everybody has to make leap of faith saying "this is how we play" and hope like hell it's what opponents have also decided. End result is 2 groups playing same situation differently and neither incorrect as rules dont' even tell how to play it.

This happens a lot less then the internet makes it out to be. Most cases the rules are clear enough and people just don't bother reading properly.

tneva82 wrote:
Well one would also need to separate cheating, mistakes and different playing culture. Playing incorrectly by mistake isn't same as cheating and 40k rules don't even work as stand alone. Too much stuff where raw simply doesn't tell you how to play it so everybody has to make leap of faith saying "this is how we play" and hope like hell it's what opponents have also decided. End result is 2 groups playing same situation differently and neither incorrect as rules dont' even tell how to play it.

Oh jesus Chrishendo. Seriously? 15 pages of this circular argument.

A. It's not cheating if it was an honest mistake!
B. He was warned in several matches to stop doing it.
A. It's possible the rules are complicated?
B. It's tournament level play, so read your rules...
A. But he could have made an honest mistake?
B. HE WAS WARNED SEVERAL TIMES, AND HAD A COMPLETE MELTDOWN OVER THE JUDGEMENT
A. BUT THE RULES ARE TOO COMPLICATED

And that's when I threw him in the river your honor.

tneva82 wrote:
Well one would also need to separate cheating, mistakes and different playing culture. Playing incorrectly by mistake isn't same as cheating and 40k rules don't even work as stand alone. Too much stuff where raw simply doesn't tell you how to play it so everybody has to make leap of faith saying "this is how we play" and hope like hell it's what opponents have also decided. End result is 2 groups playing same situation differently and neither incorrect as rules dont' even tell how to play it.

Cheating by accident and cheating by intention are the same thing. One just merits an automatic game loss congrats now you know don't do it again. The other merits an event DQ and possible perma ban. As an aside its pretty funny that these mistakes always benefit the person making them and not their opponent.

I really think a huge part of the issue is the lack of 40k's rules being concise and well-written. As said you don't often see this in other tabletop games, 40k seems to be the outlier here. Too many "Oh I thought this worked this way" or "I forgot this model can't use that relic" or "I didn't realize I had to use this at the start of the phase" sort of situations.

Wayniac wrote:
I really think a huge part of the issue is the lack of 40k's rules being concise and well-written. As said you don't often see this in other tabletop games, 40k seems to be the outlier here. Too many "Oh I thought this worked this way" or "I forgot this model can't use that relic" or "I didn't realize I had to use this at the start of the phase" sort of situations.

And your examples are all people not reading the rules, rather then vague rules open to interpretation.

Wayniac wrote:
I really think a huge part of the issue is the lack of 40k's rules being concise and well-written. As said you don't often see this in other tabletop games, 40k seems to be the outlier here. Too many "Oh I thought this worked this way" or "I forgot this model can't use that relic" or "I didn't realize I had to use this at the start of the phase" sort of situations.

WMH is a way more complicated game than 40k with a lot more stuff to remember. Yet you don't see this kind of stuff in their events. Because if they hand out DQs and game loses when people do this kind of thing. Start handing out game loses and event DQs and this gak will go the way of the dodo I guarantee it. If you can't make it to the top tables without remembering your rules then you don't deserve to make it to the top tables.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj0rcz3jNfgAhWyVN8KHW_eC5UQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftenor.com%2Fsearch%2Fbanging-head-on-desk-gifs&psig=AOvVaw2SHewzl9ja1aLZ0KkDwTa4&ust=1551190608421670

As a general observer, this topic has been around every year in one form or another since before 8th was released?

How are the heads of the independent tournament groups handling these accusations/allegations/actions? Specifically the independents because, outside of slow playing, I'm not sure I've seen or heard of a case where cheating has happened at a GW hosted GT (but that might be because it doesn't get as much coverage here than ITC).

 BroodSpawn wrote:
As a general observer, this topic has been around every year in one form or another since before 8th was released?

How are the heads of the independent tournament groups handling these accusations/allegations/actions? Specifically the independents because, outside of slow playing, I'm not sure I've seen or heard of a case where cheating has happened at a GW hosted GT (but that might be because it doesn't get as much coverage here than ITC).

From what I've seen usually they post articles after the fact saying how everyone is taking out of context and the guy caught cheating had a "momentary lapse of judgment" and they're really a cool guy and a geat Warhammer player and we should all overlook it, and then never talk about it again.

One of the top 10 competitors at LVO was banned for life from GT for cheating.

Edited for factual reference, it was top 10, not 3.

The Salt Mine wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I really think a huge part of the issue is the lack of 40k's rules being concise and well-written. As said you don't often see this in other tabletop games, 40k seems to be the outlier here. Too many "Oh I thought this worked this way" or "I forgot this model can't use that relic" or "I didn't realize I had to use this at the start of the phase" sort of situations.

WMH is a way more complicated game than 40k with a lot more stuff to remember. Yet you don't see this kind of stuff in their events. Because if they hand out DQs and game loses when people do this kind of thing. Start handing out game loses and event DQs and this gak will go the way of the dodo I guarantee it. If you can't make it to the top tables without remembering your rules then you don't deserve to make it to the top tables.

This times like 5. DQ and Remove people who can't keep track of their rules. I think you would see this clear up asap.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
One of the top 10 competitors at LVO was banned for life from GT for cheating.

Edited for factual reference, it was top 10, not 3.

Correct, yet ITC allowed him and acted as though everything was fine and dandy. This is the sort of person that needs to be watched like a hawk; ITC doesn't necessarily need to just ban him because he was banned from a GT, but they should at least make sure a judge is around him at all times and any sort of cheating dealt with twice as harshly.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
One of the top 10 competitors at LVO was banned for life from GT for cheating.

Edited for factual reference, it was top 10, not 3.

Heard it directly from a guy who played against him, that one of the things he got busted cheating on, he tried to do in game 6 of LVO. He was called on it before he did it, so didn't technically get caught cheating. The thing in question was using House Raven rules, for a Castellan in a Super Heavy Aux. Pretty safe bet though that if he got caught trying it in game 6, he did it in the other games as well.

And given that he was banned from a GT, in part over that, it's total bs that it was a "mistake" or any other innocent explanation.


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 BroodSpawn wrote:
As a general observer, this topic has been around every year in one form or another since before 8th was released?

How are the heads of the independent tournament groups handling these accusations/allegations/actions? Specifically the independents because, outside of slow playing, I'm not sure I've seen or heard of a case where cheating has happened at a GW hosted GT (but that might be because it doesn't get as much coverage here than ITC).

Steps such as the player code of conduct is one way that ITC has stepped up their game. There is also talks of building a database of the people who violate it, what infractions they committed, and what their punishment was, for ITC TO's to reference.

There were a lot of little things that were going on with knights and tau as for as incorrect play.


I played againgst a guy with Sar'cea cept (probably spelled wrong) who overwatched me on 5+'s. I didn't even realize it at the time (due to being kinda tired).

 BroodSpawn wrote:
As a general observer, this topic has been around every year in one form or another since before 8th was released?

How are the heads of the independent tournament groups handling these accusations/allegations/actions? Specifically the independents because, outside of slow playing, I'm not sure I've seen or heard of a case where cheating has happened at a GW hosted GT (but that might be because it doesn't get as much coverage here than ITC).

This topic has been around since I started playing in 5th. We will be arguing it till we are fighting actual Necrons, and then we will argue if SGT Timmy is allowed to overcharge his lasrifle like that.

I work in the poker world, which has much better written rules and strong oversight, (TO's, cameras, penalties) and we get this sort of thing on a regular basis. People are people.

 djones520 wrote:
And given that he was banned from a GT, in part over that, it's total bs that it was a "mistake" or any other innocent explanation.

If this was the same guy that got perma-banned for bumping a model with his water cup, and picking up a couple of "miss" dice over the course of a full game, then I still don't believe that it was sufficient evidence of intentional cheating. I watched the match recording myself, and I cannot tell you how many times I have done some of the same things myself on accident. Hell, his opponent made some of the same mistakes and nobody called him on it.

Also assuming that he is automatically cheating because he has a "history", when he misapplied a rule and got angry because he lost an entire turn of shooting illustrates exactly why we need to be careful about labeling things as "cheating" when they may not be. Not being able to shoot with his knight for a full turn probably cost him the game, I would be angry too, especially if it was caused by misremembering a rule, which I have also done, many times.

By all means, DQ him for bad conduct, but automatically assuming he is cheating is absolutely not fair, and exactly the reason why I hate all this "Nineteen Eighty-Four" style bullgak.

How about a three strikes rule? Like say if you do something illegal, and it's egregious enough for your opponent not to just let you apologize and forget about it, and a referee can confirm that you broke a rule, then you get a strike. Three strikes and you're out of that tournament.

w1zard wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
And given that he was banned from a GT, in part over that, it's total bs that it was a "mistake" or any other innocent explanation.

If this was the same guy that got perma-banned for bumping a model with his water cup, and picking up a couple of "miss" dice over the course of a full game, then I still don't believe that it was sufficient evidence of intentional cheating. I watched the match recording myself, and I cannot tell you how many times I have done some of the same things myself on accident. Hell, his opponent made some of the same mistakes and nobody called him on it.

Also assuming that he is automatically cheating because he has a "history", when he misapplied a rule and got angry because he lost an entire turn of shooting illustrates exactly why we need to be careful about labeling things as "cheating" when they may not be. Not being able to shoot with his knight for a full turn probably cost him the game, I would be angry too, especially if it was caused by misremembering a rule, which I have also done, many times.

By all means, DQ him for bad conduct, but automatically assuming he is cheating is absolutely not fair, and exactly the reason why I hate all this "Nineteen Eighty-Four" style bullgak.

My understanding is that's not the same player. The player banned from the London GT was the Eldar player who came 2nd at the LVO so it's not the same guy who was using Knights incorrectly.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
How about a three strikes rule? Like say if you do something illegal, and it's egregious enough for your opponent not to just let you apologize and forget about it, and a referee can confirm that you broke a rule, then you get a strike. Three strikes and you're out of that tournament.

3 is to generous for a 5-6 round tournament. I personally prefer Warning - Game Loss - Banned.

Your second mistake takes you out of the running for the tournament but you can still play, which should be good enough for a more casual player that just doesn't know his rules well enough while deterring the WAAC crowd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
And given that he was banned from a GT, in part over that, it's total bs that it was a "mistake" or any other innocent explanation.

If this was the same guy that got perma-banned for bumping a model with his water cup, and picking up a couple of "miss" dice over the course of a full game, then I still don't believe that it was sufficient evidence of intentional cheating. I watched the match recording myself, and I cannot tell you how many times I have done some of the same things myself on accident. Hell, his opponent made some of the same mistakes and nobody called him on it.

Also assuming that he is automatically cheating because he has a "history", when he misapplied a rule and got angry because he lost an entire turn of shooting illustrates exactly why we need to be careful about labeling things as "cheating" when they may not be. Not being able to shoot with his knight for a full turn probably cost him the game, I would be angry too, especially if it was caused by misremembering a rule, which I have also done, many times.

By all means, DQ him for bad conduct, but automatically assuming he is cheating is absolutely not fair, and exactly the reason why I hate all this "Nineteen Eighty-Four" style bullgak.

My understanding is that's not the same player. The player banned from the London GT was the Eldar player who came 2nd at the LVO so it's not the same guy who was using Knights incorrectly.

Correct.

The Salt Mine wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I really think a huge part of the issue is the lack of 40k's rules being concise and well-written. As said you don't often see this in other tabletop games, 40k seems to be the outlier here. Too many "Oh I thought this worked this way" or "I forgot this model can't use that relic" or "I didn't realize I had to use this at the start of the phase" sort of situations.

WMH is a way more complicated game than 40k with a lot more stuff to remember. Yet you don't see this kind of stuff in their events. Because if they hand out DQs and game loses when people do this kind of thing. Start handing out game loses and event DQs and this gak will go the way of the dodo I guarantee it. If you can't make it to the top tables without remembering your rules then you don't deserve to make it to the top tables.

Are WMH streams available that tons of people watch? If not I don't buy your argument that it doesn't happen. I also don't buy that it is a more complicated game, your units have far fewer options, every unit has a card with all the rules on it, those rules do not change. That is where the problems arise, they don't come up from complex game play, the tactics can be complex and layered if the rules are straight forward mistakes are less common. I'm not saying don't DQ people ever for mistakes, I'm saying that reasons exist for those mistakes to be more commonplace, and caught more often.

Breng77 wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I really think a huge part of the issue is the lack of 40k's rules being concise and well-written. As said you don't often see this in other tabletop games, 40k seems to be the outlier here. Too many "Oh I thought this worked this way" or "I forgot this model can't use that relic" or "I didn't realize I had to use this at the start of the phase" sort of situations.

WMH is a way more complicated game than 40k with a lot more stuff to remember. Yet you don't see this kind of stuff in their events. Because if they hand out DQs and game loses when people do this kind of thing. Start handing out game loses and event DQs and this gak will go the way of the dodo I guarantee it. If you can't make it to the top tables without remembering your rules then you don't deserve to make it to the top tables.

Are WMH streams available that tons of people watch? If not I don't buy your argument that it doesn't happen. I also don't buy that it is a more complicated game, your units have far fewer options, every unit has a card with all the rules on it, those rules do not change. That is where the problems arise, they don't come up from complex game play, the tactics can be complex and layered if the rules are straight forward mistakes are less common. I'm not saying don't DQ people ever for mistakes, I'm saying that reasons exist for those mistakes to be more commonplace, and caught more often.

I believe the big world championship like tournaments for WMH are done by Privateer Press themselves and there is normally a judge sitting at the stream table. Which is probably the main reason less shady stuff is soon on stream and something that big tournaments could/should copy.

Regarding tight rules-sets preventing cheating, I don't think that's necessarily the case. Consider Magic: the Gathering. It has a ruleset so tight you could use it to squeeze water out of a rock, and yet people cheat at high-level tournaments all the time. Just a few days ago, during the Mythic Championship, a bunch of people got caught cheating, some of them being streamed on Twitch (which, thanks to 35k+ viewers, got caught pretty damn fast).

Breng77 wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I really think a huge part of the issue is the lack of 40k's rules being concise and well-written. As said you don't often see this in other tabletop games, 40k seems to be the outlier here. Too many "Oh I thought this worked this way" or "I forgot this model can't use that relic" or "I didn't realize I had to use this at the start of the phase" sort of situations.

WMH is a way more complicated game than 40k with a lot more stuff to remember. Yet you don't see this kind of stuff in their events. Because if they hand out DQs and game loses when people do this kind of thing. Start handing out game loses and event DQs and this gak will go the way of the dodo I guarantee it. If you can't make it to the top tables without remembering your rules then you don't deserve to make it to the top tables.

Are WMH streams available that tons of people watch? If not I don't buy your argument that it doesn't happen. I also don't buy that it is a more complicated game, your units have far fewer options, every unit has a card with all the rules on it, those rules do not change. That is where the problems arise, they don't come up from complex game play, the tactics can be complex and layered if the rules are straight forward mistakes are less common. I'm not saying don't DQ people ever for mistakes, I'm saying that reasons exist for those mistakes to be more commonplace, and caught more often.

The major events have at least one game per round streamed, just like 40k. With (at least when I still played) the designers giving color commentary during the match. And to date there's been only very few accusations of cheating at any event, let alone every single one like we've seen in 40k where there's been at least one cheating or drama incident at every single major tournament (and that's just the ones we hear about, who knows about the ones we don't?)

As to whether your history should factor in, IMHO absolutely. It's not "Nineteen Eighty-Four" to be aware that somebody has a reputation as a cheater and watch them more closely/give them harsher penalties because they're a known dirtbag. In fact, I'd say that's the approach you need to have.

Breng77 wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I really think a huge part of the issue is the lack of 40k's rules being concise and well-written. As said you don't often see this in other tabletop games, 40k seems to be the outlier here. Too many "Oh I thought this worked this way" or "I forgot this model can't use that relic" or "I didn't realize I had to use this at the start of the phase" sort of situations.

WMH is a way more complicated game than 40k with a lot more stuff to remember. Yet you don't see this kind of stuff in their events. Because if they hand out DQs and game loses when people do this kind of thing. Start handing out game loses and event DQs and this gak will go the way of the dodo I guarantee it. If you can't make it to the top tables without remembering your rules then you don't deserve to make it to the top tables.

Are WMH streams available that tons of people watch? If not I don't buy your argument that it doesn't happen. I also don't buy that it is a more complicated game, your units have far fewer options, every unit has a card with all the rules on it, those rules do not change. That is where the problems arise, they don't come up from complex game play, the tactics can be complex and layered if the rules are straight forward mistakes are less common. I'm not saying don't DQ people ever for mistakes, I'm saying that reasons exist for those mistakes to be more commonplace, and caught more often.

As has already been said yes the major tourneys are streamed on twitch. I have played both systems extensively WMH is a much more complicated game and hugely knowledge based. Units are can change vastly depending on what warcaster you bring and their are plenty of units that have rule sets large rule sets the Wither-shadow combine (think thats the name don't remember off the top of my head) come to mind. All the rules for units in 40k are written down on datasheets and those rules don't change as well. If you are talking about FAQs changing stuff WMH has a community Integrated Development that is constantly updating units, changing rules, and developing new factions. Its the best thing to happen to the game and something GW should look into doing IMO. Rules mistakes and cheating accusations are way less common in WMH because if you make a rules mistake in your game and a judge is called over you get an automatic game loss. Doesn't matter if its your first one or numerous ones. If you can't remember your rules you don't deserve to win. In the whole 5 years I played WMH competitively there was never once an accusation of cheating at any of the events I went too. The last two years of playing 40k competitively almost every major event I have went to and watched has had this happen. Why? Because the types of people that do this gak know they can get away with it. There was a guy last year who placed well in an event that had a relic he couldn't have in his list the internet blew up about it. Literally the next event he went to he did the same exact thing with a different army and placed well in that event too. I'm sorry gak like that doesn't happen by accident. No one wants to jump straight to "THIS GUY IS A CHEATER AND MUST BE BANNED" . I completely agree with this stance intentional cheating is one of the hardest things to prove. However, cheating by accident and cheating intentionally are still cheating and need to be punished. One just results in a game loss the other if it can be proven results in an event ban. As soon as these people start getting game losses which are pretty much event DQs the way ITC works this gak will stop.

The Salt Mine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I really think a huge part of the issue is the lack of 40k's rules being concise and well-written. As said you don't often see this in other tabletop games, 40k seems to be the outlier here. Too many "Oh I thought this worked this way" or "I forgot this model can't use that relic" or "I didn't realize I had to use this at the start of the phase" sort of situations.

WMH is a way more complicated game than 40k with a lot more stuff to remember. Yet you don't see this kind of stuff in their events. Because if they hand out DQs and game loses when people do this kind of thing. Start handing out game loses and event DQs and this gak will go the way of the dodo I guarantee it. If you can't make it to the top tables without remembering your rules then you don't deserve to make it to the top tables.

Are WMH streams available that tons of people watch? If not I don't buy your argument that it doesn't happen. I also don't buy that it is a more complicated game, your units have far fewer options, every unit has a card with all the rules on it, those rules do not change. That is where the problems arise, they don't come up from complex game play, the tactics can be complex and layered if the rules are straight forward mistakes are less common. I'm not saying don't DQ people ever for mistakes, I'm saying that reasons exist for those mistakes to be more commonplace, and caught more often.

As has already been said yes the major tourneys are streamed on twitch. I have played both systems extensively WMH is a much more complicated game and hugely knowledge based. Units are can change vastly depending on what warcaster you bring and their are plenty of units that have rule sets large rule sets the Wither-shadow combine (think thats the name don't remember off the top of my head) come to mind. All the rules for units in 40k are written down on datasheets and those rules don't change as well. If you are talking about FAQs changing stuff WMH has a community Integrated Development that is constantly updating units, changing rules, and developing new factions. Its the best thing to happen to the game and something GW should look into doing IMO. Rules mistakes and cheating accusations are way less common in WMH because if you make a rules mistake in your game and a judge is called over you get an automatic game loss. Doesn't matter if its your first one or numerous ones. If you can't remember your rules you don't deserve to win. In the whole 5 years I played WMH competitively there was never once an accusation of cheating at any of the events I went too. The last two years of playing 40k competitively almost every major event I have went to and watched has had this happen. Why? Because the types of people that do this gak know they can get away with it. There was a guy last year who placed well in an event that had a relic he couldn't have in his list the internet blew up about it. Literally the next event he went to he did the same exact thing with a different army and placed well in that event too. I'm sorry gak like that doesn't happen by accident. No one wants to jump straight to "THIS GUY IS A CHEATER AND MUST BE BANNED" . I completely agree with this stance intentional cheating is one of the hardest things to prove. However, cheating by accident and cheating intentionally are still cheating and need to be punished. One just results in a game loss the other if it can be proven results in an event ban. As soon as these people start getting game losses which are pretty much event DQs the way ITC works this gak will stop.

I knew people who cheated in WMH so again don't buy it, in large events to, to the point that they eventually got banned. But it still happened. As to the rules what I mean is WMH units literally are always the same unit, synergy adds strategy and complexity but it is akin to remembering that my captain grants re-rolls, it is something you build around. The rules are also laid out better (at least they were when I played back in 2e), all your rules in 40k are not on your data card, weapon profiles are largely not if you have multiple weapon options something that largely does not exist in WMH, Relics are in a totally different place. Throw in that due to balance issues it seems like (and I could be wrong) that people tend to faction hop a lot more in 40k.

Throw in the WMH has always been billed as more competitive and attracted players that like that. 40k is largely full of hobbiests, and these large events are largely populated by these people. I don't think a 0 tolerance policy (I like the yellow card system) is good for those types of people because it will lead to a lot of losses by lower tier players and gamesmanship in order to win matches rather than playing games. Let me put it this way I would rather play and lose a fun game and find out my opponent played a rule wrong, than win a game by finding a rule error turn 1 and calling the judge. If I point out said mistake and it keeps happening, then I want something to be done about it.

So... I read this thread from the beginning and as someone who went to LVO this year lemme just say this.

-This was a well run tournament and had a blast. Seriously, its well worth it.

-The judges were more than accessible... they were all easy to find and the one rule question I had literally only took around 3 minutes.

-No, there were no rage mobs.

-As a guy who went 1 and 5 in the tournament, my opponents and the folks around us were great and affable. If minute mistakes were made (oh, I forgot to move or shoot unit) and the other player's turn didn't really start, we all allowed us to "go back".

-Hell, I played 2 ork lists where both opponents played that Green Tide strategy wrong (they DS 9" away, rather than coming off the board edge). It was at the end of the day where one of them came up to me and apologized and offered to switch the Wins/Loss. This was an honest mistake and I in this case I refused because I missed it too. There was no way to determine if it had any impact and these sorts of misplay is expected. To me, a great general is being able to adapt and overcome the gaming in real-time.

-Another honest mistake was that the player thought he could cast smite twice in the same turn with Magnus via the "cast extra power " CP. I informed him that you cannot ever successfully manifest the same power twice on the same model. This was the 4th game of the tournament and he told me he played it wrong in all of previous his game (and a different player was doing this too!) and he was genuinely upset that he got it wrong and apologized profusely. (Seriously, if Magnus was able to cast his uber-smite twice a turn, I'd be taking him more often!)

-My other games were great, I was on the receive end of seeing plagebearers grenading to death my Renegade Knight in hilarious fashion.

-I very much favor the yellow/red card system that ITC is using. To me, it's the most practical and fair system.

-I think there's a wide chasm between honest mistakes and outright cheating. The former should involve some grace between the two players to resolve, failing that, use the Most Important Rule™ (roll it off). The latter definitely need to be called out and definitely incur tangible sanctions (ie, miss turn, Loss, DQ, etc...).

That's my 2-cent.

Ok, I'm not sure how else to say this:

Cheating by mistake and cheating by intent are both cheating and should be given a warning. This ain't hobby night at the local garage. This is a major tournament. Accidently nudge the model? Warning. Misinterpret the rule regarding distance?. Accidently pick up the wrong dice? You're kicked out, and flagged.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, I'm not sure how else to say this:

Cheating by mistake and cheating by intent are both cheating and should be given a warning.

I disagree. As I stated before, there's a difference between blatant mistakes and honest ones.

This ain't hobby night at the local garage.

Sure it is...it's just on a larger scale and hopefully with some alcohol as well!

This is a major tournament.

And?

Accidently nudge the model? Warning.

Just move it back and ask your opponent to be more careful.

Misinterpret the rule regarding distance?

The re-adjust after confirming. This isn't hard.

Accidently pick up the wrong dice? You're kicked out, and flagged.

That's draconian. That is why its the responsibility to observe all die rolls by both parties. If your opponent is consistently doing it, they yeah call over the judge to yellow card it.

Furthermore, it's up to the TO to handle these sorts of things.

If you don't like it, don't attend. Simple.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, I'm not sure how else to say this:

Cheating by mistake and cheating by intent are both cheating and should be given a warning. This ain't hobby night at the local garage. This is a major tournament. Accidently nudge the model? Warning. Misinterpret the rule regarding distance?. Accidently pick up the wrong dice? You're kicked out, and flagged.

Careful. Jurisprudence tends to differentiate the two as different types of actionable claims / crimes. In a game as fraught with differing rules interpretations "misinterpreting a rule" is not cheating. There is no final court determining what the rule actually is.